00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Joining me on the line now is Dr. Colin
00:16Nicholas, who is the founder and coordinator of the Centre for Orang Asli Concerns. Colin,
00:24thank you so much for being on the show with me today. The term Sakai has really sparked quite a
00:28lot of debate over its use. What do you make of the current debate and how the term has been used
00:35and understood today? Well, the current debate, if you mean the debate coming from the students,
00:42Orang Asli students, that's quite interesting because generally, for most Orang Asli, Sakai
00:48is a bad term. It's a very derogative term. But interestingly, last year, the Orang Asli graduates
00:54decided to re-engineer, revamp the term. And they were taking the cue from the Black Lives Matters
01:02campaign in the US because, you know, the black is a bad term, like niggers and so on. But they were
01:07able to turn it around and turn it into a positive and, you know, with all this, all this action,
01:12public action. So they thought that similarly Sakai is a bad term, derogative term, and they can also
01:17re-engineer it and make it look like something that they should be proud of. So that's why they
01:22have this proud Sakai campaign. And what's your view of that? Do you see it as a way of reclaiming
01:30the identity, asserting their right to define their own identity? And I'm just wondering whether
01:36you think it's even possible for a slur to be, I guess, re-reclaimed or succeeded in shifting its
01:45social meaning?
01:46The word is a neutral word. How it's used, it makes it, how it's used, the context it's used,
01:55makes it very derogatory or not. Just like Jakun and Orang Ulu. These are terms, when some people use it,
02:01it's a derogatory term. But if you are an Orang Ulu, if you're a Jakun person, you say, no, I'm a Jakun,
02:06I'm not Chinese, I'm a Jakun, I'm an Orang Ulu. So it's how you use it. It's just like the word
02:11kaling, you know, it came from the word kalinga, which meant, again, friend and comrade and so on.
02:16But over time, it became derogatory. Just like us, you're a Western-minded person, you're an American-minded
02:22person. So the context is very important. Unfortunately, in Malaysia today, as far as the Orang Asli are
02:28concerned, the context is that the word sakai has very, very negative and derogatory and means very,
02:36very, it looks down on the Orang Asli as slaves, people who are backward, without religion, dirty,
02:41and all the negative things you can. And the Orang Asli generally do not like that term. So we have
02:47to respect it, not ban it, but respect that, that wish to not to be called that.
02:53Okay. What do you then make of the implications if we stop using this term? Could there be any
03:04implications in terms of customary land rights or even, you know, cultural implications as well,
03:12as some have argued, including the Orang Asli student movement?
03:18Yes. So I think there's actually no legal implications. If you're referring to, in the
03:23past, there were such things as sakai reserves. So now if the word sakai is banned or not used,
03:28then the Orang Asli do not have rights to that. That's a very weak argument because there is this
03:34interpretation act that all the terms that were used before apply, you know. Like in the past,
03:38the Orang Asli Act, the person in charge of the department was a commissioner of Orang Asli,
03:42but now he's called the director general. It's just a change of name. But the, the legal implication
03:49is not so much as that because if you were a, if you were a Boogies before you were a, you know,
03:55a Chinese and so on, it doesn't mean that you're now a Malay, you were never a Boogies, is it?
04:01It's, again, how the, how the society uses the term. Legally, there's no implication at all if you do
04:07not use the word sakai or stop using the word sakai. You shouldn't be banning the word sakai.
04:12It's part of our history and context, I think. Okay. But do you think it should be considered
04:17hate speech if it's causing offence to some groups, some communities? Do you think we should,
04:25we should label it and punish it as hate speech?
04:29If it's used in the context of a hateful manner, yes, it is hate speech, no? But when I talk,
04:37when I give talks to people, I say in the past, they were called sakais and the reason why they're
04:41called Orang Asli today because they didn't like the word sakai. There's nothing wrong in using the
04:45word sakai. It's how you use it, in what context and what purpose and intention we have that counts.
04:51Okay. Well, I want to zoom our conversation out a little bit and talk a little bit about
04:57about the way Malaysia approaches Orang Asli in policymaking. So we have the Aboriginal People's
05:07Act that the government is now proposing to amend and they're said to be inspired by New Zealand's
05:13approach to empowering the Maori. Can I ask you what your thoughts on this are, Colin? Do you think
05:19that this Act needs updating, needs to be amended in today's current context?
05:27There needs to be a law to guarantee and secure Orang Asli rights, you know, and two kinds of rights,
05:33rights to the customary lands and rights to the socio-economic condition. You cannot put all into
05:38one Act. And so yes, definitely, there is a need to not just amend the Act, but look into coming up with a
05:46special act specifically for Orang Asli land. Like how we have Malay Reservations Act, you know,
05:51and then you also have religious acts, acts on religion and customs and language and so on.
05:56The same thing for Orang Asli. But if you want to emulate, if our Deputy Prime Minister has gone to
06:01New Zealand and he says he wants to emulate the Maoris, all the better.
06:05Yeah, sorry. Why all the better? I mean, what aspects of the way, you know, other countries treat
06:15their Indigenous peoples can we learn from? Because I'm just wondering whether we should be taking
06:23whether the context is the same. Can we apply it here?
06:28We can apply it here if we have the political will, you know, instead of just the, you know,
06:32the PR message is coming through the papers. Because in New Zealand, the Maori people,
06:40their rights are enshrined in the constitution to some extent, you know, the rights to land,
06:45the rights to identity and so on, because of the Waitangi Treaty. So you have secured rights of
06:50the Indigenous peoples in the constitution, recognized rights. In Malaysia, the Orang Asli are not even
06:56mentioned in the constitution as people with special position. So we've got a long way to go. So if he
07:01wants to, if the Deputy Prime Minister wants to emulate the Maoris, the New Zealand example,
07:06by all means, is a thousand times better. The very fact, this I'm quoting him, he himself said,
07:12no, we need to amend the Act because the Orang Asli had been left behind. That is a very clear
07:17statement from the Deputy Prime Minister himself, saying that the Orang Asli had been marginalized
07:21by the own Malaysian government. That's why we need the amendments. But the problem is,
07:27we do not know what they're trying to amend or what they're, how they're going about doing the
07:31amendments. But you have some stakeholder meetings of people who are not very well informed. They're
07:36passing around Google forms, you know, to have surveys and so on. So there's no concrete,
07:41nobody has seen some concrete drafts of whatever the amendments are supposed to be.
07:46So how can you have full stakeholder consultation, apply informed consent and all those principles
07:54which are must come into being, they're talking about stakeholders and rights holders involved.
07:58Right. So, so how should they go about doing it? What is it that you would like to see to make sure that
08:04they're actually engaging correctly and meaningfully all stakeholders?
08:12Well, first of all, the people who are doing the report into the amendments should be well versed into
08:20what has been happening and not just the law but Orang Asli situation and what Orang Asli want.
08:25You cannot just talk to a few representatives, for example, the Patins or JKK members,
08:30you know, and assume that that's what you want, that's what they want. And you do it in a very short
08:35one day workshop, half a day workshop, these kind of things. You just cannot, you know,
08:39there's a lot of work involved, you know. You don't change the constitution or you don't change an
08:43amendment act just by doing a report, a consultancy report, you know. None of that has been done in
08:49our country. And those which have followed that process always have been shot down for being
08:55lacking in this and that and so on, you know. So the first thing you want to do is,
08:59if you have a draft, before you present it to parliament, before you present it to the
09:04department, present it to the Orang Asli first and others who are interested so that they can
09:08comment on it. Colin, can I ask you, have you had any engagement with, on this, in this respect,
09:15with the government? I was invited to a stakeholder meeting some time back, but the invitation came in
09:21while I was travelling to, on my way to Sabah. The meeting was in the afternoon. So I sent my colleague
09:27and they were there for one hour only. Wow. Okay, so then I should, we will probably do a follow-up
09:34when we have more details. But before we get to that point, what is it that you want
09:39the powers that be or those who are drafting this amendment or hopefully new legislation
09:44that will help empower Orang Asli communities? What is it that you want to see from this?
09:48A few fundamental things. The first thing is what the DPM has said, you know, that the Orang Asli
09:54be recognised as the first peoples of this country and that they have rights to their customary lands.
10:00The second thing is that you cannot put everything into one act. As I said, you should have at least
10:06two acts, you know, one specifically on Orang Asli land and there's a lot of issues to be dealt with,
10:10you know, in terms of who should be the land administrator and what kind of... Orang Asli are not homogeneous.
10:16There are some who are living in the forest, huge territories. There are some who are living near
10:19towns with lands, all the, all the market and so on. And some who are having rubber trees,
10:24rubber plantations and oil pumps. So it's very rare that you can have one kind of,
10:28one kind of a rule that fits everybody, you see. So that part. The second part is JAKWA.
10:33JAKWA, the Orang Asli Department, you see. They should be, the law should tell them that your role is
10:40as a service agency to provide services, not to represent the Orang Asli, not to control the Orang Asli.
10:46JAKWA, so education, health and all the infrastructure, that's your job. But you cannot
10:52represent Orang Asli at government meetings on a project or whatever, or you don't just depend
10:57on the hitman and so on. So the two very important principles in the UN, the United Nations Declaration
11:04of Rights of Indian Peoples, two very important principles which Orang Asli, all the Indian
11:08Peoples all over the world, one is the right to free and free, prior and informed consent,
11:15and the right to self-determination, the right to determine for themselves, what's best for them,
11:19not to be dictated to from outside or above.
11:23Colin, thank you so much for sharing some of these insights with us. I really appreciate your time.
11:28Dr. Colin Nicholas there from the Centre for Orang Asli Concerns, wrapping up this episode
11:32of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching, good night.
