Consider This: “Sakai” | Unpacking a Contested Term (Part 2) - Video Dailymotion

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The term “Sakai” has resurfaced in public debate after being used to insult Cameron Highlands MP Ramli Nor. Rights groups have condemned the comment as hate speech and demanded the term be abolished. But an Orang Asli student association is pushing back, warning that erasing the word from official use could threaten legal protections tied to indigenous land rights and identity. Instead, they’re campaigning to reclaim the term through the #ProudSakai movement. Can “Sakai” be reclaimed as a symbol of pride? Or should it be erased from our vocabulary altogether? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Colin Nicholas, Founder and Coordinator of the Center for Orang Asli Concerns.

Transcript

00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Joining me on the line now is Dr. Colin

00:16Nicholas, who is the founder and coordinator of the Centre for Orang Asli Concerns. Colin,

00:24thank you so much for being on the show with me today. The term Sakai has really sparked quite a

00:28lot of debate over its use. What do you make of the current debate and how the term has been used

00:35and understood today? Well, the current debate, if you mean the debate coming from the students,

00:42Orang Asli students, that's quite interesting because generally, for most Orang Asli, Sakai

00:48is a bad term. It's a very derogative term. But interestingly, last year, the Orang Asli graduates

00:54decided to re-engineer, revamp the term. And they were taking the cue from the Black Lives Matters

01:02campaign in the US because, you know, the black is a bad term, like niggers and so on. But they were

01:07able to turn it around and turn it into a positive and, you know, with all this, all this action,

01:12public action. So they thought that similarly Sakai is a bad term, derogative term, and they can also

01:17re-engineer it and make it look like something that they should be proud of. So that's why they

01:22have this proud Sakai campaign. And what's your view of that? Do you see it as a way of reclaiming

01:30the identity, asserting their right to define their own identity? And I'm just wondering whether

01:36you think it's even possible for a slur to be, I guess, re-reclaimed or succeeded in shifting its

01:45social meaning?

01:46The word is a neutral word. How it's used, it makes it, how it's used, the context it's used,

01:55makes it very derogatory or not. Just like Jakun and Orang Ulu. These are terms, when some people use it,

02:01it's a derogatory term. But if you are an Orang Ulu, if you're a Jakun person, you say, no, I'm a Jakun,

02:06I'm not Chinese, I'm a Jakun, I'm an Orang Ulu. So it's how you use it. It's just like the word

02:11kaling, you know, it came from the word kalinga, which meant, again, friend and comrade and so on.

02:16But over time, it became derogatory. Just like us, you're a Western-minded person, you're an American-minded

02:22person. So the context is very important. Unfortunately, in Malaysia today, as far as the Orang Asli are

02:28concerned, the context is that the word sakai has very, very negative and derogatory and means very,

02:36very, it looks down on the Orang Asli as slaves, people who are backward, without religion, dirty,

02:41and all the negative things you can. And the Orang Asli generally do not like that term. So we have

02:47to respect it, not ban it, but respect that, that wish to not to be called that.

02:53Okay. What do you then make of the implications if we stop using this term? Could there be any

03:04implications in terms of customary land rights or even, you know, cultural implications as well,

03:12as some have argued, including the Orang Asli student movement?

03:18Yes. So I think there's actually no legal implications. If you're referring to, in the

03:23past, there were such things as sakai reserves. So now if the word sakai is banned or not used,

03:28then the Orang Asli do not have rights to that. That's a very weak argument because there is this

03:34interpretation act that all the terms that were used before apply, you know. Like in the past,

03:38the Orang Asli Act, the person in charge of the department was a commissioner of Orang Asli,

03:42but now he's called the director general. It's just a change of name. But the, the legal implication

03:49is not so much as that because if you were a, if you were a Boogies before you were a, you know,

03:55a Chinese and so on, it doesn't mean that you're now a Malay, you were never a Boogies, is it?

04:01It's, again, how the, how the society uses the term. Legally, there's no implication at all if you do

04:07not use the word sakai or stop using the word sakai. You shouldn't be banning the word sakai.

04:12It's part of our history and context, I think. Okay. But do you think it should be considered

04:17hate speech if it's causing offence to some groups, some communities? Do you think we should,

04:25we should label it and punish it as hate speech?

04:29If it's used in the context of a hateful manner, yes, it is hate speech, no? But when I talk,

04:37when I give talks to people, I say in the past, they were called sakais and the reason why they're

04:41called Orang Asli today because they didn't like the word sakai. There's nothing wrong in using the

04:45word sakai. It's how you use it, in what context and what purpose and intention we have that counts.

04:51Okay. Well, I want to zoom our conversation out a little bit and talk a little bit about

04:57about the way Malaysia approaches Orang Asli in policymaking. So we have the Aboriginal People's

05:07Act that the government is now proposing to amend and they're said to be inspired by New Zealand's

05:13approach to empowering the Maori. Can I ask you what your thoughts on this are, Colin? Do you think

05:19that this Act needs updating, needs to be amended in today's current context?

05:27There needs to be a law to guarantee and secure Orang Asli rights, you know, and two kinds of rights,

05:33rights to the customary lands and rights to the socio-economic condition. You cannot put all into

05:38one Act. And so yes, definitely, there is a need to not just amend the Act, but look into coming up with a

05:46special act specifically for Orang Asli land. Like how we have Malay Reservations Act, you know,

05:51and then you also have religious acts, acts on religion and customs and language and so on.

05:56The same thing for Orang Asli. But if you want to emulate, if our Deputy Prime Minister has gone to

06:01New Zealand and he says he wants to emulate the Maoris, all the better.

06:05Yeah, sorry. Why all the better? I mean, what aspects of the way, you know, other countries treat

06:15their Indigenous peoples can we learn from? Because I'm just wondering whether we should be taking

06:23whether the context is the same. Can we apply it here?

06:28We can apply it here if we have the political will, you know, instead of just the, you know,

06:32the PR message is coming through the papers. Because in New Zealand, the Maori people,

06:40their rights are enshrined in the constitution to some extent, you know, the rights to land,

06:45the rights to identity and so on, because of the Waitangi Treaty. So you have secured rights of

06:50the Indigenous peoples in the constitution, recognized rights. In Malaysia, the Orang Asli are not even

06:56mentioned in the constitution as people with special position. So we've got a long way to go. So if he

07:01wants to, if the Deputy Prime Minister wants to emulate the Maoris, the New Zealand example,

07:06by all means, is a thousand times better. The very fact, this I'm quoting him, he himself said,

07:12no, we need to amend the Act because the Orang Asli had been left behind. That is a very clear

07:17statement from the Deputy Prime Minister himself, saying that the Orang Asli had been marginalized

07:21by the own Malaysian government. That's why we need the amendments. But the problem is,

07:27we do not know what they're trying to amend or what they're, how they're going about doing the

07:31amendments. But you have some stakeholder meetings of people who are not very well informed. They're

07:36passing around Google forms, you know, to have surveys and so on. So there's no concrete,

07:41nobody has seen some concrete drafts of whatever the amendments are supposed to be.

07:46So how can you have full stakeholder consultation, apply informed consent and all those principles

07:54which are must come into being, they're talking about stakeholders and rights holders involved.

07:58Right. So, so how should they go about doing it? What is it that you would like to see to make sure that

08:04they're actually engaging correctly and meaningfully all stakeholders?

08:12Well, first of all, the people who are doing the report into the amendments should be well versed into

08:20what has been happening and not just the law but Orang Asli situation and what Orang Asli want.

08:25You cannot just talk to a few representatives, for example, the Patins or JKK members,

08:30you know, and assume that that's what you want, that's what they want. And you do it in a very short

08:35one day workshop, half a day workshop, these kind of things. You just cannot, you know,

08:39there's a lot of work involved, you know. You don't change the constitution or you don't change an

08:43amendment act just by doing a report, a consultancy report, you know. None of that has been done in

08:49our country. And those which have followed that process always have been shot down for being

08:55lacking in this and that and so on, you know. So the first thing you want to do is,

08:59if you have a draft, before you present it to parliament, before you present it to the

09:04department, present it to the Orang Asli first and others who are interested so that they can

09:08comment on it. Colin, can I ask you, have you had any engagement with, on this, in this respect,

09:15with the government? I was invited to a stakeholder meeting some time back, but the invitation came in

09:21while I was travelling to, on my way to Sabah. The meeting was in the afternoon. So I sent my colleague

09:27and they were there for one hour only. Wow. Okay, so then I should, we will probably do a follow-up

09:34when we have more details. But before we get to that point, what is it that you want

09:39the powers that be or those who are drafting this amendment or hopefully new legislation

09:44that will help empower Orang Asli communities? What is it that you want to see from this?

09:48A few fundamental things. The first thing is what the DPM has said, you know, that the Orang Asli

09:54be recognised as the first peoples of this country and that they have rights to their customary lands.

10:00The second thing is that you cannot put everything into one act. As I said, you should have at least

10:06two acts, you know, one specifically on Orang Asli land and there's a lot of issues to be dealt with,

10:10you know, in terms of who should be the land administrator and what kind of... Orang Asli are not homogeneous.

10:16There are some who are living in the forest, huge territories. There are some who are living near

10:19towns with lands, all the, all the market and so on. And some who are having rubber trees,

10:24rubber plantations and oil pumps. So it's very rare that you can have one kind of,

10:28one kind of a rule that fits everybody, you see. So that part. The second part is JAKWA.

10:33JAKWA, the Orang Asli Department, you see. They should be, the law should tell them that your role is

10:40as a service agency to provide services, not to represent the Orang Asli, not to control the Orang Asli.

10:46JAKWA, so education, health and all the infrastructure, that's your job. But you cannot

10:52represent Orang Asli at government meetings on a project or whatever, or you don't just depend

10:57on the hitman and so on. So the two very important principles in the UN, the United Nations Declaration

11:04of Rights of Indian Peoples, two very important principles which Orang Asli, all the Indian

11:08Peoples all over the world, one is the right to free and free, prior and informed consent,

11:15and the right to self-determination, the right to determine for themselves, what's best for them,

11:19not to be dictated to from outside or above.

11:23Colin, thank you so much for sharing some of these insights with us. I really appreciate your time.

11:28Dr. Colin Nicholas there from the Centre for Orang Asli Concerns, wrapping up this episode

11:32of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching, good night.

Consider This: “Sakai” | Unpacking a Contested Term (Part 2)

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