Michael Craze interview

Ludders63

6 months ago

Dr Who - Myth Makers

Transcript

00:00Well, um, time's, uh, well, time's getting on. Do you fancy a quick drink?

00:21I thought you'd never ask.

00:23No, there's no need to take a bus or a tube, because I've got this, uh, thingery jig that Janet Fjornin gave me,

00:29and all you have to do is just, um...

00:32Nicola? Nicola? Oh, hi, Colin.

00:35Nicola, need a lift? Come on, let's take Colin's car.

00:37No, it won't take a minute. I'll just, uh, I think the neutron flow is, um, phased its, um, what, it's the back of this thing.

00:45Don't worry. Nicola, um...

00:48It's not the last time.

00:58How is get the daft prop?

01:09Well, this is not good.

01:10Broken now.

01:17Oh, well.

01:19God, it's freezing.

01:20What, okay, thank you.

01:21What, how are you, Colin?

01:24What, how are you, Ken?

01:25Can I see, Kyle?

01:25Oh, my God.

01:30What are you, Ken, why are you living?

01:32What?

01:32Right.

01:37I love you.

01:38Oh, my God.

01:39What are you, Ken?

01:41There's a place where I'm living with people.

01:44Oh, my God.

01:47Yeah, of course.

01:48I can do the drink.

02:18I'm sorry sir, we're not open yet.

02:28I could have really done with the drink.

02:32You wouldn't believe how I got here.

02:35Or maybe you would.

02:48Hello and welcome to Myth Makers.

03:04Actor Michael Craze was one of the first people who had to deal with the strange phenomenon

03:09of the lead actor in Doctor Who changing his appearance.

03:13He was present at the changeover from Doctor Number One, William Hartnell, to Doctor Number

03:20Two, Patrick Troughton.

03:21And as you've seen, some years ago, Michael and I met up in a pub.

03:27And strangely enough, there was a camera crew there to record the whole thing.

03:31Isn't that odd?

03:32Don't you think so?

03:34Well, what we're going to do in this program is dip back into that ancient interview

03:40and also talk anew about Michael's career in and out of Doctor Who.

03:45But first of all, what were you doing in that pub, Michael?

03:48Well, it wasn't actually a pub.

03:50It was a hotel.

03:51I was the bar's manager of the place.

03:53It was the Phoenix in East Eroom in Norfolk.

03:56And I generally managed the bar and the function rooms, etc.

04:02Because I'd always been in the trade.

04:03I'd always been in public houses as a side interest to acting.

04:07As you know, a precarious profession it is.

04:09You've always got to have something else.

04:15So does this mean you've left acting?

04:17No, no, no, not at all.

04:18Not at all, no.

04:19This is a very convenient way of stabilizing my life and making a secure financial life

04:26for myself rather than having to rely on acting, which is a very precarious profession,

04:31as you well know.

04:32So I can act as much as I possibly can and keep this job as well.

04:39Very wise.

04:40Do you come from this neck of the woods?

04:42No, no, not at all, no.

04:44My wife's family, quite a lot of them live up here.

04:47And that's how we wound up up here.

04:49No, in fact, I've lived all over the country.

04:50I've lived in Cornwall.

04:52I was born in Cornwall.

04:53And then we moved to Hereford, Leeds, South London.

04:56So I've just been like a vagabond all over England.

05:00What made you decide to go into acting in the first place?

05:05It was a long story.

05:07Quite by chance it was discovered that I had a perfect boy soprano voice when I was 12 years

05:12of age.

05:13And that was through the gang shows and Boy Scout shows and things.

05:16Yeah.

05:17And so I, my mother was keen that I, that I used this boy soprano voice.

05:22And so I went into, well luckily I got into The King and I at Drury Lane.

05:26And then Plain and Fancy at Drury Lane and then Damn Yankees at the Coliseum, all in London.

05:31And then after that of course the bug had bitten and I was smitten completely.

05:36That's when you decided you definitely wanted to be an actor.

05:39Oh yeah, very much so, yeah.

05:40Although my mother was wise enough to insist that I stayed at Ordinary Educational School and took GCE.

05:46So what was your first professional acting job?

05:49Well in fact The King and I when I was 12.

05:51I mean that was professional theatre.

05:52I mean that was Drury Lane and you couldn't get much higher.

05:54In fact only down really.

05:55From Drury Lane.

05:57Did you concentrate on theatre or did you do television and film as well?

06:01Erm, it was all theatre to start with yes.

06:03Because once I'd finished my schooling and passed GCE four subjects and GCE.

06:07Erm, then the only way really for a young actor then was to go into repertory and learn the ropes properly there.

06:13Erm, so I went to rep in Oldham, Bradford, Richmond, erm, all over the place.

06:20And then erm, I just sort of progressed into TV by having an agent.

06:26What TV did you do?

06:28Erm, to start with I think my first appearance was in a programme called Family Solicitor for Granada Television.

06:35And erm, then I did something called Target Luna.

06:40Which was a, not, not a million miles away from Doctor Who but much before Doctor Who.

06:45And that was about a young, young family of kids and a scientist.

06:49Was that your only encounter with science fiction before Doctor Who?

06:54Erm, no I think I did things like Journey into the Unknown.

06:58Erm, which was another space sci-fi thing.

07:03And film work, what did you do along that?

07:06Film work, yes I did a lot of film work early on, funnily enough.

07:08Erm, more than erm, TV.

07:10I did a picture called Spare the Rod with Richard O'Sullivan and Jeremy Bullock.

07:17Erm, which was when we were all about seventeen I think.

07:22So that's many moons ago.

07:24And then things like erm, other feature films like Two Left Feet with Michael Crawford and Larry Dawn Porter.

07:29Erm, about ten major feature films as a young lad.

07:34As an actor?

07:35Oh yes, as an actor, yes.

07:36But didn't you win an award for directing?

07:39Well, when I was twenty, yes.

07:41I made a lot of money when I made a film called The Golden Head in Budapest in Hungary for Cinerama.

07:46And erm, I was really keen on the other side of the camera.

07:50And so I decided to sink my money into erm, a sixteen mill production which won an award at the erm, Commonwealth Film Festival in Cardiff.

07:59In sixty, erm, early sixties, anyway I can't remember the exact date.

08:05But that was my only erm, venture into directing properly.

08:08I mean I'd like to have done it but I just didn't have the money.

08:11What was the film about?

08:12Erm, it was called Fragment, it was a love story basically.

08:15Did you have any part of the writing of it?

08:17Yes, yes.

08:18And, and I played a part of it.

08:19It was only three characters in it.

08:20And I played the guy who, who saves the girl from throwing herself off Hungerford Bridge over the, River Thames.

08:26Well, in those days, in the sixties, you tended to get a lot of casting sessions.

08:39So you'd be called by your agent to go here, go there, go everywhere.

08:43Just to see directors erm, for various parts.

08:46And I got a call to go to see Innis Lloyd for Doctor Who.

08:50Well I knew all about Doctor Who, so I just assumed it was a character in Doctor Who.

08:54Erm, so tromped along to Villiers House in Shebards Bush Green and erm, met Innis Lloyd.

09:00And then, once that interview had happened, then the other meeting, er, Michael Ferguson.

09:06Erm, I realised that it wasn't just a one-off, it was going to be a regular, ongoing character.

09:11And how did they define the character to you?

09:14Erm, as a Cockney, upbeat, erm, modern young man, with a Cockney accent, erm, that kind of character.

09:27But did they, I mean, was there a character breakdown written down, or did they...

09:31Not that they actually showed me, no.

09:32I mean, what they got me to do, to start with, was just to read erm, the script to them.

09:37And then also to do a piece.

09:39Well I'd recently been in a play in the West End called Chips and Everything, by Arnold Wesker.

09:44In which I played a Cockney airman, in fact.

09:47And I did a monologue from that.

09:49And er, that seemed to suffice.

09:52Had you seen Doctor Who before?

09:53Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, because we used to watch it.

09:55I'd previously, erm, in 63 I think it was, been in Harrogate in Repertory Company.

10:01And we all used to shuttle back to the digs between the matinee performance on a Saturday

10:05and the evening performance on a Saturday and sit round a table, have our tea and watch Doctor Who.

10:10So, er, were you quite excited at the prospect of being in this programme that you'd been watching?

10:16Erm, oh yeah, I mean it was especially exciting because it was obviously going to be ongoing work,

10:20which was, which is rare for an actor.

10:23Now the first story you did was The War Machines.

10:25What, what can you remember about that?

10:27It was very exciting because it was working in the streets of London,

10:32with all that, er, kind of chaos that went on.

10:35Erm, and it was exciting to start into a programme with a new character and try and explore that character.

10:40And the relationship with the Doctor and, and Polly, Annika.

10:45Was it early morning shooting to keep, so that the streets were clear?

10:49I think that quite a bit of it was done early in the morning, yes.

10:52But we have special police protection and all that sort of thing, so, streets were clear.

10:58Now, what were your first impressions of, er, firstly William Hartnell and then Annika Wills?

11:05Well, Annika and I struck it off straight away because we were of the same generation

11:12and everything was happening in the sixties, in the early sixties.

11:15Erm, the music and the fashion and everything.

11:19Erm, we kind of came up against a brick wall with William Hartnell, who didn't particularly like youngsters.

11:24It was very old fashioned and, and, and the nineteen sixties must have knocked him sideways.

11:30And so, we had to behave ourselves.

11:33We couldn't bring in the, sort of, King's Road trendy, er, psychedelic thing into the rehearsal room

11:40when you're working with William Hartnell.

11:42He would have actively disapproved.

11:43Oh, yes, yes.

11:44I mean, you were coming to a, to a very serious job of work.

11:47There was no joking about it, you know.

11:49You, you learnt your lines, which we did, but I mean, you know, Bill had trouble.

11:53Erm.

11:54How did you cope with that?

11:57Was there any improvisation going on?

11:59Oh, no.

12:00No, not with, not with Bill.

12:01No, you.

12:02Erm, I think Annika and I just kept, kept the two things separate.

12:07We, we obviously got on very well and, erm, but realised that with Bill it was a job of work,

12:13a very serious job of work.

12:14And so we had our laughs outside and, erm, then came seriously to the rehearsal room.

12:19The next story was The Smugglers.

12:22What do you remember about that?

12:24It was great fun because there was a lot of location work and a lot of dressing up and, er,

12:29I loved it.

12:30Because I used to like the historical ones better than the, the, the space ones, in fact.

12:35Why is that?

12:36I've always had a historical bent and I just like, I like exploring the past.

12:41Now, would you have known at that point that William Hartnell was thinking of leaving?

12:46No, no, we didn't, we didn't know anything about it really.

12:49It all crept up on us, on us from behind.

12:52Was, that would have been while you were shooting the next story, The Tenth Planet?

12:55Yes.

12:56But we still weren't really informed that he was going, you know, it was all sort of very hush-hush

13:01and, er, there was things happening in the background that we didn't know anything about

13:05and it was all, hardly top secret and top level and...

13:09So how was it announced to you? Were you just sent a memo or what?

13:13No, it was just kind of broken to us, you know, gently that Bill would be going

13:17and, er, you know, a new man would be taking over.

13:19Then the great speculation as to who it was going to be.

13:21Who we wanted and who everyone else wanted.

13:24Did you have any opinions at the time?

13:26No, I don't think so, not really.

13:29Erm, was there ever a reason given for why William Hartnell left, to, to you and Annika?

13:36I think it was evident that he was poorly.

13:38He wasn't, he wasn't a very well man, I don't think he could cope with it anymore.

13:42Did he ever speak to you about...

13:44No, no, no, there was never a, there was never that kind of personal, erm, contact with Bill.

13:50It was very much a, a job of work and that was it.

13:55We weren't, we, in fact we only, Annika and I only ever had dinner with him once

13:59in a restaurant in Shepherd's Bush when he did open out a bit after he had a few scotches.

14:03But that was about the only occasion I can remember him actually being human.

14:08Ha ha.

14:10But, erm, no, he didn't, we'd, we'd never had a personal relationship.

14:15So, you saw that slightly different side of him then, over a meal.

14:19How would you describe him?

14:21I think he was a bit sad.

14:24He was, he was a bit, erm, I think he wanted to be a film star.

14:29He wanted, he thought he should have been a film star and he wasn't.

14:31He was a, a children's favourite.

14:34Erm, and I think he got left behind in that kind of, that race in the, in the fifties.

14:41And, you know, when he was, he was quite a well-known actor but he never actually made stardom.

14:46And I think he became a bit bitter about that.

14:49He saw all his peers up there and, erm, that's my own theory.

14:54Now, although many people have said that he did leave because of, er, ill health,

14:58it did emerge later that apparently he'd written to someone or, or something like that,

15:03saying that he actually parted company with the series, erm, because he had a difference of opinion

15:08about the way the series should go.

15:10Do you think that's possible that it, that might have been true?

15:13I don't think so on an artistic point of view.

15:17I think it might have been different to his opinion as far as his attitude to the show went.

15:22Erm, and that people wanted it to move in a direction, erm, that he wasn't very happy with.

15:29He didn't want to modernise it.

15:31But I don't think it was a real, I don't think he stood his ground or anything.

15:34I don't think, I won't do this. I don't think he ever said that.

15:37Then at the end of the tenth planet, there was the momentous occasion where, for the first time,

15:42they changed from one doctor to another. What do you remember about that?

15:46Erm, we didn't really quite know how they were going to do it and I don't think anyone did.

15:52They just sort of were jigging about how they were going to superimpose each other.

15:56And, erm, all I remember is it took a long time and in those old-fashioned days,

16:01they literally superimposed the two heads on black backgrounds.

16:04And I remember Edwina, who was then to be my first wife later on, she was the production assistant on it.

16:11All she had to do was kept on running up and down to the gallery and back down onto the floor

16:14and up to the gallery and back down onto the floor to try and position them exactly within a metre,

16:19a millimetre of erm, so the heads could marry exactly of Pat and erm, and Bill.

16:26It took a long time.

16:28So the two doctors were present in the studio at the same time?

16:31Yeah, yeah, they had to, their heads were against back.

16:35So did they, did you see them talking? Did they discuss anything?

16:38Well, I think they talked, yes, but I don't know what they talked about.

16:41I mean, I wasn't privy to that.

16:43I wonder if they'd worked together before, I don't know.

16:45I don't think so.

16:47Although, er, Bill was supposed to have said he admired Patrick's work, so.

16:52Yes, I did hear that he'd actually said, er, there's only one man who can take over and it's Patrick Troughton.

16:57Do you think that might be true?

16:59No.

17:02Erm, I think I sort of thought of him along the lines of RSM Britain,

17:11er, who I'd come across in a play called Chips Everything,

17:14which I did at the Royal Court and we all had to be, erm, drilled by him.

17:18And I thought, yeah, that reminds me of that bloody William Hartnell.

17:21Because he was all shouting and screaming, wasn't he, on the parade ground.

17:25He was, he was old, he was grumpy, er, he was very set in his ways,

17:30and he just didn't like change.

17:34He was very set in an old-fashioned school.

17:37I mean, he was no more approved of a method actor or, you know, anything like that.

17:42He was always one for sort of doing something, or, you know, make sure the camera catches that look,

17:47or this or something.

17:49He was always after a bit of business, a bit of funny business, which he thought was funny.

17:54He seemed to get lower and lower and be more lethargic and it was, everything was more difficult for him.

18:01So we didn't really, we just thought it was a question of age.

18:04I wasn't really aware that he was ill.

18:06He wasn't, he wouldn't have kept up with the change.

18:08He wasn't keeping up with the technology, er, which was happening all the time.

18:12He wasn't keeping up with the, with the society, with the changes in society.

18:18And it was just too much for him.

18:21I think he was probably glad to go, although he wouldn't admit it.

18:24I think his original conception was absolutely brilliant,

18:27or their original conception was brilliant.

18:30Sidney Newman, Virgil Lambert, etc.

18:33Without, without that combination, it would never have happened, would it?

18:36So, I mean, his, his was the instigation, and brilliant it was as well.

18:41The War Machines was memorable because it's obviously the first story,

18:54and it was getting to know who I was working with.

18:56Um, Annika, in particular, because obviously there was going to be a lot of work done with her,

19:01who I found I got on famously with.

19:03We, in fact, lived round the corner from each other virtually.

19:06Um, she was in Hurlingham Road in Fulham, and I was just off the North End Road.

19:10At that time, before I was moving flats.

19:13In fact, I wound up living in her house for six weeks while I changed flats.

19:17Um, and it was exciting filming in London as well.

19:20Filming round the Post Office Tower.

19:22I remember that.

19:23Because it was quite, um, out of the ordinary for film people to be in the streets of London.

19:30Filming actually in London.

19:32So you've got far more looks than you would today.

19:35Um, now they'll tell you how to do it.

19:38And, um, they'll stand in the background and say, no, point it over that way.

19:41And you had a chance to dress up and be different.

19:45So that's basically what I remember from the smugglers.

19:48Well, The Tenth Planet has got so many different memories,

19:52because it was so momentous, really, in Doctor Who and in my life.

19:56Because, in fact, I met my first wife on Doctor Who.

20:01Um, she was the production assistant, Edwina.

20:03And, in fact, she started, I, well, I first came across her when we were filming at Ealing.

20:09The snow scenes, and she was, uh, throwing polystyrene bits, as if to, you know, to create the snow,

20:16and chucking them in front of the wind machine.

20:18And I'd recently had an operation on my nose, because I broke my nose, and had one channel blocked,

20:24and I had it cleared during a break in, the summer break in Doctor Who.

20:28And I asked her to please be careful, and not get these polystyrene lumps up my nose.

20:32But, of course, she thought it was a great joke, and threw them straight up my nose.

20:35Anyway, um, she was a lovely production assistant, and I married her, um,

20:40well, about two years after I left Doctor Who.

20:45Look, why don't you sit down and have a drink?

20:47Oh, thanks very much.

20:48What would you like?

20:49Um, I'll have half a pint of that bitter there, if I may.

20:58Uh, I'm not dragging you away, am I?

21:17No, that's okay.

21:18Right.

21:20So, you met Patrick Charlton, um, round about the time of the Tenth Planet, is that right?

21:26Well, that's right.

21:27It was the first time I ever met him as a, as a real person.

21:30Um, obviously, I'd, um, known him through his work on TV, but I'd never actually physically met him before.

21:36Oh, and you met him on the set when he was doing the transition scene?

21:39Well, I mean, obviously, I'd met him in rehearsals beforehand, but, um, that was probably one of the most memorable things,

21:44when, when they had to do the transition scene.

21:46Yes.

21:47Was, er, what was the greatest difference you noticed with working with a new Doctor?

21:53Ah, well, it was a complete transformation, because, um, Bill Hartnell had been very strict, and very firm, and very stern.

22:01And, er, there wasn't a lot of jokes.

22:04Um, and as soon as, as soon as Pat, er, joined, um, it was a completely new atmosphere, and, um, there was jokes and laughs,

22:11and, you know, the whole, the whole atmosphere changed completely, and, er, you know, the crew became happier, and everyone was happier.

22:18And, er, he had quite an outrageous costume to start with as well, didn't he?

22:21Well, when he first joined, they said, um, let's make him a hobo of the cosmic.

22:27And, er, so he was completely outraged. He had a very tall hat.

22:31Hmm.

22:32And then it, um, then the powers to be said, well, it's going a bit too far.

22:37And so they made him cut his hat off and cut his hat down, and, um, stop all the flute and the whistle and all that.

22:44They thought that was too comic, did they?

22:46Yeah, um, I think the powers that be thought it was becoming a bit of a comedy show, yeah, when he first started, so.

22:52But against, um, against his will, and, um, I don't think we, we liked it either, really, very much.

22:58Hmm.

22:59That first story was quite a dramatic one with the Daleks.

23:02Do you think that the Daleks were brought in to smooth out the transition from William Hartnell to Patrick Charlton?

23:08Um, possibly, but, um, yeah, possibly to sort of mask the idea or, or get the audience used to a different face, um, bringing the Daleks as well.

23:19But, um, I think that story was on the boards anyway, whether, um, Bill had been leaving or not.

23:25Ah.

23:26How did you find working with the Daleks?

23:29Was it as bad as working with animals and children?

23:31Yeah, it's, uh, they just get in the way.

23:33They're a bit of a nuisance.

23:35Um, and you had to, you know, make sure your position was tight because they, they can only obviously move in certain directions.

23:41They can't, you can't, they can't, you can't expect them to get out of your way.

23:45Oh, I see.

23:46So, you know, you had to be pretty tight with them.

23:48And then the next story was The Highlanders, which was the last historical story for a long, long time.

23:54Uh, do you think that was a shame, first of all, that they stopped?

23:58Yes, because I, I like the idea of, um, historical stories, um, from my own point of view,

24:04because I'm a bit of a history buff anyway.

24:05I mean, I'm a, yeah, I'm a vice chairman of the Antiquarian Society here in Deerham.

24:09Um, and I think it had a, it, it, it lent a lot of point to Doctor Who because the children then suddenly thought,

24:16ah, yes, um, that period of history.

24:19So it, it, it was an educational thing as well.

24:21And I think it was a shame.

24:23That brought Doctor Who down to earth as well, and so you had a lot of down to earth problems,

24:28like falling in the water instead of being exterminated.

24:31That's right, yeah.

24:32You fell in a tank, I believe.

24:34Um, yes, that was, um, in the, in the tank at, uh, Ealing Studios, when I had to walk the plank.

24:41Did you have a stuntman double?

24:43Um, yes, a chap called Peter Pocock used to do some of the stuff, which was too dangerous,

24:48because of insurance-wise, they wouldn't, um.

24:50Yes.

24:51So he fell in the tank, did he?

24:52Um, I think he did, yes, I think he did during that.

24:54You did, did you fall in the tank?

24:56I had to, I had to get into the water, yes, but I think he, um, actually did the sort of dangerous stuff.

25:00How did they cope with you having soaking wet clothes for the rest of the episode?

25:03Ah, well, um, they bought two sets of costumes.

25:07Really?

25:08Must have been quite expensive.

25:09It was, yeah.

25:10Hmm.

25:11Fraser Hines, of course, was introduced in that story as Jamie.

25:14Was he just part of the Highlander's story to start with and not intended as a, a regular character?

25:19Well, as I understand it, um, he just came in as a, as a character in that, in that story

25:24and then, um, the powers to be again decided that, um, he was, he was a good character

25:29and so they kept him in and then, obviously, he then was in, took my place when I left.

25:34Do you know why they picked up on that, Jamie being a good idea for a character?

25:39I really don't know.

25:40I think it's just one of those things that happens behind the scenes that you never know

25:43anything about.

25:44You're just the mere actors on the screen.

25:46Absolutely.

25:47Policy decisions.

25:48Yes.

25:49The Underwater Menace is a story that, uh, is not one of Patrick Troughton's favourites.

25:53How did you feel about it?

25:54No, um, I don't think it was anyone's particular favourite.

25:58Um, it was, it was, I think it was badly conceived.

26:01I don't think it was a very good story.

26:03Um, the costumes were a disaster.

26:05Although, it was directed by Julia Smith, who is now the producer of EastEnders.

26:10Oh.

26:11And so, I mean, it is obviously a talented lady, but, um, no, it just didn't come together.

26:15I mean, some of these, some of the serials, uh, some of the series, um, you get a team together

26:20and either the chemistry works and it gels, it all gels as the editor and the script editor

26:25and the director and the designer and the artist all work together.

26:29Or else, they all pull at each other and then that was it.

26:32And so that's one of those Underwater Menace, yeah.

26:34Ah.

26:35But especially the costumes.

26:36So it wasn't your favourite story?

26:38No, it was a silly story.

26:40Can you, can you name a favourite story from your time?

26:43Um, not, not in particular.

26:47I mean, I like working with the Cybermen.

26:49Ah, yes.

26:50Um, in particular because I liked, um, I liked the person of Kit Peddler who, who originally conceived the Cybermen.

26:57Did he come to the set?

26:58Yes, he did.

26:59Yes, he was there all the time, yes.

27:00Really?

27:01Because, yes, it was quite complicated.

27:02It was quite one of the most complicated things they'd done, I think.

27:05I mean, so far as the technicalities of it all were.

27:07Um, and getting the, the, the, the words right about how the Cybermen operated, et cetera.

27:12Ah, I see.

27:13So, um, but he was also a very clever scientist because he'd never written a thing before in his life.

27:16It's often said that writers are a bit of a nuisance, uh, during the performance and rehearsal stage.

27:21Was it like that with Kit Peddler?

27:22Some of them can be, but not him because he was, he was, it was all new to him anyway.

27:26So he, he wasn't mucking about with inflections on words or lines or anything like that.

27:30Mm.

27:31Um, it was really technical.

27:32Uh, the, the Cybermen, of course, were, were revamped, weren't they?

27:37Uh, for Patrick Troughton's story.

27:38They had, uh, their nice, uh, silver costume.

27:41Well, yeah, they got the costumes worked out properly in the end.

27:43Yes.

27:44You know, they started off with, I mean, it was, uh, they were literally sort of stuck together with bits of sellotape and things like that.

27:50I mean, they didn't work at all to start with.

27:53Then they spent a bit more, a bit more money and they won't.

27:55Do you think the second design worked better then?

27:57Oh, yes.

27:58I mean, it was far superior.

27:59Well, I mean, that was evident, wasn't it?

28:00Mm, it was.

28:01Yes, though.

28:02Very chilling.

28:03You know, from Cybermen in silver costumes, we had, uh, enormous crab-like things going around with mini-minis underneath them, apparently, moving around the Macra Terror.

28:11Yeah.

28:12Uh, you got quite a bit to do in that story.

28:14You were, you were taken over and you were a bit of a hero in that as well at the end when you destroyed all the machinery.

28:19How did you find that?

28:21Well, that one I do remember because it was nice to be given an opportunity to actually act rather than just say,

28:29come on, doctor, or this way, doctor, or, you know, help, doctor, or that.

28:33So you were actually given an opportunity to actually be a bit more powerful, a bit, you know, use a bit of emotion.

28:39Because there's a lot of talk about the female assistants turning into screamers, screaming and shouting and running away from the monsters.

28:46Do you think there's a different kind of problem with male companions? Do you think it's worse for them?

28:51Um, not really.

28:55It was, it was, it was difficult to try and put a, a, an actual character onto Ben and make him, um, sort of stand up to the doctor and things like that.

29:06Um, but it's, it's obviously difficult for any companions of the doctor, I thought.

29:11Hmm.

29:12Come now to your last story, the faceless ones.

29:15That was filmed in...

29:16Gatwick.

29:17Gatport Airwick, as people say.

29:19Um, was it very noisy there?

29:21Yes, yes, very noisy.

29:23Yes, I remember the rules of the engines as we crouched underneath the wheels.

29:28Hmm.

29:29Um, and also, that was your last story.

29:34Was that planned on your part or was it their decision?

29:37No, they, they came to us and they said, your year's contract is up.

29:41Um, and we, you know, how do you feel if we're not going to renew it?

29:44And we said, well, it's your prerogative, you know.

29:46Um, if you say no, um, that's it.

29:48And so they did.

29:49And so I, I just requested that, um, they kill my character off.

29:53But they wouldn't have that.

29:54And they said, no, it was too, too much, too violent.

29:56Too worried.

29:57Munch a day, I mean, 20 years on.

29:58I mean, they probably would have killed me off.

30:00Hmm.

30:01How did you feel about your final scene?

30:03I thought it was a shame.

30:05It was a bit weak.

30:07Hmm.

30:08What actually happened?

30:09I can't remember.

30:10Well, we just sort of said bye-bye and see you.

30:14We thought we'd stay in the 1960s.

30:19You've already spoken about your working relationship with Annika,

30:22and you got on really well.

30:24Um, did you keep in touch once you'd left the series?

30:28Well, no, not really, because she kind of went off.

30:32Um, she went to India and places like that and wound up in Canada.

30:36And I didn't see her, in fact, again for, oh, some time.

30:40Although she'd moved to Norfolk.

30:41And then we had a photo shoot for one of the specials for, uh,

30:44one of the BBC magazines in Norfolk.

30:47When she was living up there with Michael Goff when she was married to him.

30:50Um, and then, literally, we lost contact for years and years and years

30:53until we met at a convention in Manchester.

30:57What was that like, meeting her again?

30:59Oh, it was fabulous.

31:00It was great, yeah.

31:01We just looked a bit older, but, um, she's exactly the same as she ever was.

31:04You met up with Patrick Trowndon, didn't you?

31:06That's right, for the first time.

31:08Last, um, last year in Brighton.

31:10How did you find that?

31:11Oh, it was super, because he's such a lovely man.

31:14More up to date now, uh, isn't it true that Graham Harper, the director,

31:19uh, wanted you to be in one of his Doctor Who stories?

31:22That's right, he did.

31:23And, um, we actually got to talking about, you know, when it would be

31:27and the dates and everything, and then he suddenly rang and said,

31:30he was terribly sorry, but the producer, John Nathan Turner, had said

31:33that it was no longer policy to use any of the past characters from Doctor Who,

31:37which was a bit silly, considering it was about, I don't know, about 18 years after that then.

31:41And I think also it was going to be a character, a character make-up, probably, as well.

31:45But anyway, John Nathan Turner said no, so.

31:48You didn't even get to the stage of seeing a script?

31:51No.

31:52In the, uh, previous interview, you said that it was difficult to put a character into Ben.

31:58That's, that's a quote from what you said.

32:00I mean, uh, what did you mean by that?

32:03I think he was, he was very black and white.

32:06He didn't, he wasn't allowed to show a lot of emotion.

32:09Probably that's what I meant.

32:11Um, but then that wasn't really what Doctor Who was about,

32:15about the, about the characters having a lot of emotion,

32:18so probably that's what I meant.

32:19Did, I mean, would you have found that frustrating at the time, do you feel?

32:23Well, yeah, being, being an actor, I wanted drama for, for, for his character.

32:29I think there, there were a few dramatic scenes in Doctor Who, with Ben, you know,

32:34being whatever at the stake, uh, where he was allowed to, to, to express, uh, dramatic moments.

32:41You mentioned in particular that the macro terror, uh, gave you a chance to really act.

32:46Yeah, I, I think, I think that's what probably Annika and I felt,

32:50that, uh, you weren't really given a lot of opportunity to act.

32:53It was, it was very much staccato, sort of, um, back up to, to the Doctor.

33:02And what's it, did you ever feel that character-wise,

33:05it was a little crowded in the TARDIS when Jamie suddenly came aboard?

33:09No, people have often said that.

33:11Was I jealous or, or, or was there nasty feelings or bad feelings or anything?

33:14No, there never was.

33:15I mean, it just, it was another, someone had written the scripts and,

33:18Fraser came in and that was it.

33:20I mean, there was never any nasty feelings or anything about it.

33:23You said that there weren't a lot of jokes with William Hartnell

33:26and that everyone was happier when, when Patrick Troughton came along.

33:29What was it about him that made people happier, do you think?

33:32He was just a human being and he would, he, he, he was a humble person.

33:38He, he, he didn't mind making mistakes.

33:40He didn't mind other people making mistakes.

33:42He was just a, a, a very nice person.

33:45He, and a very, I say, a very humble person.

33:49Not at all, um, egotistic or anything.

33:54And he was just a, a, a, you know, one of the guys.

33:56You know, we, we, we all got on together.

33:58I think I, if I remember correctly, uh, Annika Wills said that when you, uh,

34:03put on those Bring Back Bill Hartnell t-shirts that,

34:06that Patrick Troughton was actually just a little bit hurt about that.

34:10Is that true? Is that...

34:11I think he was. Oh, he was a sensitive man, yeah. Yes.

34:14Do you, do you have a defining memory of him, working with him in the show?

34:19Something that always comes to mind when you think about him?

34:24With Patrick, yes. I think, um, I remember him struggling to start with, with the character,

34:31because he had, in the very beginning, he had this imagined character of a cosmic hobo.

34:39And he was, he was struggling to find the level for him, for the Doctor.

34:44So when he first started, he had the big tall hat and he had the whistle.

34:47And I could see him working within himself as how far he could go,

34:52and how far his mannerisms and how, and so he was, he was internally,

34:56I can see him working at it.

34:58Um, which was a mark of a, of, of a very good actor.

35:01I mean, it's a, it's the full internal sort of Stanislavski type thing

35:05of working out what this character quite is, is about.

35:08And he was doing that in rehearsals when we first worked together.

35:12And Annika and I used to tease him and send him up and say,

35:14you know, take that bloody hat off, for God's sake, you know.

35:17And you're going too far this time, Pat.

35:19And Pat was all the time working at it, saying, no, what, Doctor, what?

35:22And he believed in the Doctor. He didn't, you know,

35:24it wasn't just a sort of coming on and putting on a funny costume and saying,

35:27ha, ha, ha, here am I. He, he believed in the internal of it as well.

35:31So that's really, I mean, I just remember him as a, as a, as an actor, as a good actor.

35:36Um, John Pertwee, uh, said of Patrick Trump that they, they had a, um,

35:40a different approach in that John Pertwee was very much,

35:43he had to have the cues and say the lines as they were written.

35:46But he said that, he said it affectionately, of course,

35:48that Patrick Troughton sometimes would, uh, not improvise,

35:52but change the wording of the lines.

35:54It would mean the same thing, but it would be different words.

35:56Is, is that, uh, an experience you can identify with?

35:58Yes, because Pat was in character.

36:00Because once Pat was playing the Doctor, he was the Doctor.

36:03He wasn't just saying the lines, that they, that the emotion came with it.

36:07Whereas I can imagine, um, John would, um, need to be Pat on cue.

36:12Mm.

36:13You know, that he must have the right line, otherwise he'd be thrown.

36:16Whereas Pat wasn't like that.

36:17If, he, he might suddenly change the position of an object if he was fiddling or something,

36:21and you, you'd respond, which is good, good acting, because it's, it's instantaneous.

36:27And you've got to be able to do that.

36:30Not just, you know, look that way, say a line there, and then look that way,

36:34and, you know, that's, that's just wooden.

36:41He's one of those actors, you knew his name.

36:43And then you thought, now where do I, yeah, of course I know Patrick Troughton.

36:47And what did, what did he play?

36:49But Pat always played characters that he, you would never recognise him in the street

36:53from his previous, um, previously to Doctor Who, because he was always so different.

36:57Um, he was well known in the business, and then when people said,

37:00oh, yeah, don't you remember he was in so-and-so, he was in Silas Mara,

37:02and he was in this, and he was in that, and he was there.

37:04Oh, yeah, of course he was, and he played that, and that, and he played that, and that.

37:07But he wasn't a, he wasn't an, he was an actor's actor.

37:10The actors knew the, the characters that he played and everything,

37:12but he, but he wasn't a famous, he wasn't a face.

37:15Well, Patrick in the very beginning was just, um, so funny.

37:21He, he was, he was struggling to find his character,

37:25he was struggling to find the character, the Doctor that he wanted to put on it.

37:29Um, but in the meantime, he was a, he was a very humble man.

37:34He, he loved company, he loved young people, or younger people,

37:39because he wasn't that old himself, really, when he was doing it.

37:42Um, and he, he was just a great fun person.

37:46Everything, everything could be turned into a joke.

37:49It was hard work, because he was, although it was great fun,

37:54he was also very strict insofar as that it had to be right.

37:58Um, although you could, um, perhaps improvise in rehearsals,

38:03and, and find the right levels, et cetera.

38:05When we got to the studio, we must know exactly what we were doing,

38:07and he was very professional insofar as he insisted that props were right,

38:11and things were right, everything was in the, um, but it was very light.

38:16It was very light-hearted.

38:17It wasn't, it wasn't very strict like it was with William Hartnell.

38:20I think, without Patrick Troughton, I don't think you would have had a Doctor Who today,

38:25or you wouldn't have had a, a new, um, Hollywood film of, of Doctor Who,

38:31because he changed the concept of the Doctor,

38:35and he put so much energy into it, and made it, energised it, and made it so, so different.

38:44He could have just come in and thrown on an old wig, and carried on, but he didn't.

38:49He, he really understood the character, and made it believable.

38:55So, I mean, it could have been any old famous actor,

38:58and he, it would have gone down like a lead balloon,

39:00but I think Patrick really allowed it to carry on.

39:15The only memory I really have is that in rehearsals it was difficult,

39:18because you, you obviously work with pieces of tape on the floor

39:22to know where the walls are, and where the Daleks are going to be,

39:25and then eventually the base of the Dalek would come in,

39:28so that you had to make the movement, allow for the movement of the Dalek,

39:32and which would be quite different once you got into the studio,

39:34because the walls would be different, the doors would be different,

39:36and so it was, it was only a mechanical thing that I really remember.

39:40Obviously we, there was great anticipation as to what Patrick was going to be like.

39:43We didn't know, we knew him, Annika and I I'm talking about,

39:46we knew him professionally as a, as a, as a, a great actor, a great character actor.

39:52Wonder what he would be like.

39:54He didn't know whether it was going to work,

39:56and whether he'd done the right thing.

39:58Erm, and so it was a lovely period of, of creativity,

40:04of, of, of all of us helping each other and how it would work,

40:08what the lines were right and if they weren't right.

40:10And so we spent most of the time in Haneke's wine bar in the Fulham Road discussing it.

40:14Erm, yeah, we went out with the lovely costume lady, Sheila Reid,

40:20who's now changed her name, I think, to Alexander or something like that.

40:22Erm, bought all these very expensive costumes, erm, in Jaegers up the Kings Road,

40:27spent £100 on a pair of trousers, but we had to have a double pair of trousers,

40:30because I was going to go in the tank at Ealing, having walked the plank.

40:33Erm, which I was, I was, I thought it was a terrible waste of money.

40:38In fact, I wound up buying the decent pair of trousers and the decent jacket that didn't go in the tank.

40:44Erm, also, of course, Fraser joined us, Fraser Hines.

40:48And, erm, we had the lovely Hannah Gordon in it.

40:52I remember Hannah more than I remember Fraser.

40:54I remember Fraser's meanness, we discovered how mean he was in those days.

40:58We'd go to the bar and he'd buy us a half pint instead of a pint.

41:02The main thing I remember about it was Joseph First, that marvellous character, that marvellous madman.

41:10I think if it hadn't been for him, and I think if it hadn't been for him,

41:12and the cast and the rest of us latching onto sort of funny lines that he said

41:16and sending the whole thing up, I don't think we'd have got through it.

41:19It was just unfortunate that nothing seemed to pull together.

41:23The Moonbase was, erm, memorable because, A, we got to know Kit Pedler a lot more.

41:29He was a fascinating man. We used to meet socially and, you know, over dinner and drinks and things.

41:35And he used to come round to Annika and Mick Goff when they were together and we used to have dinners.

41:39And he was a fascinating character because he obviously was a scientist rather than a, erm, a scriptwriter.

41:45The Macra Terra, erm, I remember for the fact that they only had one monster, I think it was.

41:51And that was completely unwieldy, erm, and did very little. It was huge.

41:57Erm, and I think they had even trouble moving an arm up and down, you know.

42:01I mean, I don't quite know what it was.

42:03By that time, Annika and I were more concerned about sort of thinking,

42:06well, what are we going to do next? You know, where's the next job?

42:08Let's get our pen and paper together and get the photographs off and, erm,

42:12and keep phoning the agent daily and saying, where's the next job?

42:16What were your feelings about leaving the series?

42:34I don't think I was particularly perturbed, being young and, you know, I was going to go on and do other things.

42:40Erm, and wasn't particularly worried, but perhaps I should have been,

42:44because it did slightly typecast me, insofar as that I don't think the BBC used me for some, I don't know, 18 months, two years.

42:51So you worked mainly for the ITV companies?

42:55After, directly after that, yes.

42:57What, what sort of work did you do for them?

42:59Not much different, I don't think. I mean, I've always played villains and roughs and...

43:03But characters not like Ben in that sense then?

43:06No, no, much, a much rougher type, which I always had done up to, erm, getting Ben.

43:13All sorts of things which, names of which escaped me,

43:32but I did, I did actually do 21 episodes of the wonderful Crossroads,

43:36which is another, another story altogether, I mean, a completely different ball game to Doctor Who.

43:42Doctor Who. Erm, that kind of thing, directly after that, you know, in the next five years, that's what I did.

43:50I don't know whether you remember, but you also appeared in a sketch we did, erm, a myth runner thing, where you had to sort of...

43:57Oh, yeah.

43:58Do you remember that?

43:59Yes.

44:00What do you remember about it?

44:01You, you fools.

44:03Psst!

44:04Psst!

44:05Psst!

44:06Psst!

44:07Psst!

44:08Psst!

44:09Psst!

44:10Psst!

44:11Psst!

44:12Psst!

44:14Psst!

44:15All right.

44:17Psst!

44:19All right, it is you.

44:20You, I don't know you got the nerve to come around here.

44:21No, no, I think you're making a terrible mistake.

44:23Mistake?

44:24You're that same ugly-looking, balding git that asked those stupid questions!

44:31No, no, no. I think this might clear everything up.

44:37Then, using a voice completely out of sync with his lip movements, he told me of his myth-maker ordeal. It was a nightmare.

45:04Alright, well that's enough said about that then. What's happened since we did the last interview?

45:11Since Durham? Yes.

45:13Since Norfolk. So we're going back a number of years.

45:16A number of years, yes.

45:18Well, just after that, we decided to move back down south because it was proving very difficult to keep travelling down to London to work.

45:26And having to stay overnight with my brother in Greenwich or my sister somewhere else or, you know, and it was getting very complicated.

45:32So I said, let's pack it up here and go back down south.

45:35And so we went back down and, first of all, lived in Beckenham in Kent.

45:40And I carried on doing various corporate videos and I did a thing for the RAF on jump jets in Germany for them, a training film.

45:53And then, in my spare time, I was working, again, I'd got a job as a part-time barman in the NatWest, I suppose I shouldn't say NatWest in a minute, is it?