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00:00What happens from there? I do want to bring in Dan Meyer, national security partner at Tully

00:05Rinke, to help explain all of this. Thank you so much, Dan, for taking the time to be here with us

00:10today. Glad to be with you. All right. So first off, the big question here, how common overall

00:17are leaks like this one? Well, this is notable in that it's a very sort of high priority topic

00:25in Washington. But every day, and our counterintelligence people do this, every day

00:30there are leaks all throughout the media. And some of those leaks are rogue employees with an agenda.

00:38Some of those leaks are deliberate and approved. I hate to tell you, but that's the case.

00:43Sometimes they're deliberate and approved, but there's no traceability on them. So Washington

00:49is a big colander, right? The water just flows out of the agencies. And this is not uncommon to have

00:56happen, but usually on much smaller issues. When someone does leak classified information like this,

01:03especially on this scale, what penalties actually exist for the person or persons responsible? Are

01:09we talking fines? Are we talking jail time? What are the possible penalties?

01:15So the penalties can be pretty drastic. Because remember, if it's classified information, which

01:21this was, there's no reason, lawful reason it should be in the media, I hate to tell you.

01:27So there's been a violation of some law in that respect. Title 28 on the leaking of classified

01:34information, penalties 5,000, which is not that much money. It is for many Americans, but the people

01:42have access to this. The $5,000 fine is not much. But the five years in prison and the tag as a felon,

01:48and then, of course, the loss of your security clearance. If you're substantiated as a leaguer,

01:53you're not going to work for the federal government again, and you're not going to work for a

01:57contractor. So it can be pretty draconian. Does it matter if we are talking about a Department of

02:05Defense employee, if we're talking about a congressional lawmaker? Does any of that matter when it comes to

02:11the potential penalties there? So for the general prosecutions, no, because those statutes apply

02:19across the board in all federal agencies. For security clearances, most of the 17 intelligence

02:26community agencies are pretty harmonious in reviewing what are called Guideline K and Guideline M

02:32issues. So a leak is a leak is a leak, and you're going to get hammered at one agency, and then the other

02:37agencies are not going to want to hire you for that reason. So I think it's pretty much the same deal

02:44for everybody across the board. Some agencies get really aggressive, okay? And so the extent to which

02:50an agency pushes the Justice Department to prosecute, they may feel that their particular information was

02:57especially compromised. The critical question at this point is to figure out why that DIA employee

03:03did not feel safe going through DIA's own disclosure processes. There may be a break in the system. The

03:10plumbing may be fractured. So we have to figure out why the employee didn't feel safe disclosing internally.

03:18And when you talk about a whistleblower situation like this, whether it's this case or something else,

03:24I imagine probably the biggest, I guess, risk that you face is never being able to work in the federal

03:30government again, as you were saying. Yeah, I mean, you know, your credibility is shot. And that's a

03:39tough road to hoe. You could maybe find employment elsewhere, civil society, nonprofits and such,

03:47but you're not going to have the type of compensation and the pension you're going to get working for the

03:51federal government. What is kind of the best way to go about reporting a problem versus being a

03:57whistleblower? In your opinion, in your expertise, what is the correct way to go about that?

04:03So this gets to the other story that's been brewing, and that's regarding the president's

04:08desire to restrict the flow of information to the Congress. So there is the Intelligence

04:12Community Whistleblower Protection Act, which provides no protection, by the way. It's a misnomer of a

04:17statute. But you can go through that statute, report to your local IG, goes up through the agency,

04:24the head of the agency signs off or does not sign off. When I used to handle the program for the

04:29intelligence community, I sent everything up. If it went under a Director Clapper's signature,

04:35it was an urgent concern. If it wasn't, it was our courtesy for the whistleblower. Went up to the

04:39Intelligence Committees on both the House and Senate side, equally to the Republicans and Democrats.

04:45I played no favorites. And then the committees could decide what needed to be done. And if we decided

04:51an investigation had to be open in the meantime, we would inform the committees, well, it's nice

04:57whatever you're doing, but we're going to investigate this one ourselves. So that's the safest way of

05:02doing it. That process kind of broke down during the Ukraine situation with the whistleblower. And I

05:08think it still is struggling to recover. And that's why there needs to be a review not only of the employee

05:14who leaked, but also of the conditions inside DIA, uh, that made that employee feel like they had to

05:20leave. All right, Dan Meyer, thank you so much for taking the time to join us and provide some insight

05:26on that. I know this investigation is getting in full swing and president Trump has said that he will

05:32find the person or the persons there who are responsible. Dan, anything you want to add here

05:37before I let you go? Uh, we need to get back on the story of whistleblowing and how it's done

05:42correctly. We've been forgetting about it the last few years. And if people don't know about it,

05:47they're going to blunder. Somebody's going to let out classified information that's going to harm us.

05:52And that's the big thing is that the whole reason why classified information is in the box

05:56is because if it's out of the box, we're going to get harmed. And that's what we need to get control

06:01of. All right, Dan, thank you so much for taking the time to be here on this Saturday. We appreciate it.

06:06All right. Have a good weekend.

06:36All right.

06:38This is good.

06:40Welcome to the B scary show.

06:42Bye.

06:44Let's see.

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07:04Bye.

15:35We're right back.

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