- 7 months ago
The big focus of this episode of Democratic Newsroom is the tragic Air India crash that claimed 275 lives in Ahmedabad last week.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching our latest episode of the Democratic Newsroom.
00:17Our team comes to you at a very sombre and very tragic time.
00:22It's a time when we've had one of the worst air disasters where Air India is concerned.
00:27And 275 lives are lost.
00:30As I speak, DNA samples continue to be matched and over 60 bodies and remains yet to be matched
00:36where their loved ones continue an agonizing wait in Ahmedabad.
00:41Over the course of the next 30 minutes, Consulting Editor Rajdeep Sardasai right here,
00:45Siddharth Zarabi, my colleague BT Editor, and Pooja Shali, my colleague also joining us.
00:52We'll also be joined. Naga, my colleague, who's going to be teleported from Bangalore,
00:58he's been tracking the air crash and the aftermath of it in terms of investigation very, very closely.
01:04Naga himself has a fair bit, is a trained pilot, knows a thing or two when it comes about when we talk about aviation.
01:10Rajdeep, to begin with you, you know, these are times when, yes, we've lost 275 lives and, you know,
01:19we need to look in terms of where does the accountability lie?
01:23Do you think it's too early to ask?
01:25Well, look, accountability, according to me, is the critical question without speculation.
01:31I think that's the, you know, that is the concern.
01:35It is less than a week since this tragedy has occurred, so it would be premature to conclude what really happened to AI-171.
01:43But my worry is that once the media moves on to the next story, once AI-171 in some ways becomes a distant memory,
01:52will the focus on accountability be there or not?
01:55And I only cite Preeti previous air crashes.
01:58You can go back to Mangaluru 2010, you can go back to the Kodiko crash a few years ago.
02:04There is a lack of transparency.
02:05I am only calling for transparency and accountability.
02:09I am not in any way suggesting who is responsible for the air crash, what is it, that's experts have to decide.
02:16But I don't want that paper to be, you know, in some dusty cupboard in the Ministry of Civil Aviation.
02:21That is unacceptable. If I was the family of a victim, I want closure.
02:26If I at all can get some, only if there is accountability in our system, whether it's an air crash or a stampede,
02:32unfortunately, history suggests we do not have enough accountability in our system.
02:37And eventually, in many such crashes, you blame pilot error and the poor pilot is not there to defend himself.
02:43You know, but I want to bring in Naga there.
02:46Like, he's a, Naga, Arjun, my colleague, who's joining us from Bengaluru.
02:48We've teleported him from Bengaluru right here.
02:52But, Naga, how do you look into all of this?
02:54Because you're standing at a point where the black box, there are some issues with it in all probabilities.
02:58We're going to send it abroad for a larger investigation.
03:02One of the engines, the right engines of AI-171 just three months ago was overhauled.
03:07There are so many questions swirling about.
03:09When we talk about closure, Naga, you know, I don't think there will ever be any closure
03:13for the loved ones who lost their family on board 171.
03:19But some answers, what happened?
03:26It's a larger question that we have to answer, Preeti.
03:29Yes, there's no closure for the loved ones.
03:31It's absolutely painful to lose your family members and friends in this air crash.
03:35And you have no answer for months together as to what happened.
03:38But this larger question is the aviation infrastructure in India.
03:41Are we equipped enough?
03:44The airlines operate end-to-end, minute-to-minute.
03:47But there's pilot fatigue.
03:49There is technical fatigue.
03:50Both ground staff and the airline staff are completely fatigued.
03:54We have had instances where pilots have died of heart attack at boarding gates.
03:59That's the level of fatigue we are talking about.
04:01At minimum rest, they are flying at maximum utilization of themselves.
04:08That's the question that we have to answer.
04:10Technical glitches keep happening.
04:11But how equipped are the pilots mentally and physically to handle these emergencies?
04:16That's the big question.
04:17Do you know the notice period for a captain in India is one year?
04:21If I put my papers as an airline captain, I have to serve one year notice period.
04:25Imagine the amount of stress that he would be having.
04:27Which other airline would wait for me to join the 13th month after serving the notice period 12 months?
04:33So, there are larger infrastructure and also mental well-being questions to be asked on pilots.
04:39One, and also there is DGCA completely in, you know, it's working 20 years, 25 years back.
04:45Look at FAA, look at CAA.
04:46They are much, much ahead in terms of their policy, in terms of their training, infrastructure.
04:51It's up to the rate and state of the art.
04:53But somewhere in India, we lack the technical expertise.
04:57But we put up a phase that we know everything.
04:59First, we have to accept.
05:00We are not as good as the Western countries are in terms of training and policies.
05:04That's where transparency starts.
05:06Like Rajdeep mentioned, it's not just one crash.
05:08We'll forget in a week and India will move ahead.
05:10But still, the larger question has to be answered.
05:13Transparency starts from training till the aircraft's investigation.
05:16Siddharth, what do you want to weigh in?
05:19Three months ago, the right engine of this aircraft was overhauled.
05:23Was there maintenance oversight?
05:25That's a glaring question now that needs to be investigated, especially we'll know more once, you know,
05:30we know what really is, where the black box or what it tells us.
05:34But lots of questions.
05:35You know, you have the former civil aviation minister, Praful Patel, raise his own set of questions.
05:39Well, very clearly, and I think Praful Patel is in a minority of one at this stage to have questioned Singapore Airlines.
05:46We haven't heard from Singapore Airlines with regard to some of the specific comments that were made.
05:51But the Air India CEO has actually gone on record to say that Singapore Airlines has done what it had to do.
05:56Yeah, it's an investor.
05:58But, you know, what is the broader health of India's aviation industry?
06:03And I think we need to take that into account that this sector, which is continuing to fly more and more Indians.
06:10In fact, there's been almost 7% passenger growth in the month of April and May this year.
06:15Losses have increased.
06:18Our aviation sector today, all airlines face a situation of high ATF costs, high lease rentals,
06:25and most importantly, supply side disruptions where many of the massive orders, numbers of hundreds of aircraft that the two leading airlines in India have put out on order.
06:36There are delays in delivery also on account of that.
06:40And therefore, lease rental costs have also gone up.
06:43So, is aviation a very profitable business for all Indian airlines?
06:47No, it is not.
06:48And as that old adage goes, Preeti, the fastest way for a billionaire to become a millionaire in India is to set up an airline.
06:57Vijay Malaya is one of those who has learned that very bitter lesson.
07:00But that's like a broader point to the point that you make.
07:03But, you know, Pooja, would you want to weigh in?
07:04And I'll circle back to you, Rajdi, because is this an aviation problem or is this an Air India problem?
07:10You know, many of us who've traveled by Air India, especially in the last six months after the takeover, have seen multiple issues.
07:15Social media has been a flush with the issues pertaining to Air India and the aircrafts.
07:21You know, not at all are we suggesting that there's any link to what happened on the 12th of June on issues with Air India.
07:29But there were questions earlier as well.
07:31But, Pooja, you know, a stampede happens, an accident happens, a train accident happens.
07:36Immigrately, we call for accountability.
07:38A train accident happens, you know, you have the opposition gunning and paying for, you know, the railway minister to step down.
07:46Should accountability be fixed and in what manner should it be fixed?
07:49You know, in this case, Air India crash, when we talk about accountability, what does it mean?
07:54This airline this time was not under state ownership.
07:57It was bought in 2022 by the Tatas.
07:59There was Boeing involved here as well.
08:02Singapore Airlines has been an investor.
08:03There are multiple layers to it.
08:05So, when we talk about accountability, we could see changes coming in.
08:08I understand if this was a government airline, so to say, you could immediately ask for resignations, for asking how the government has done it.
08:15But here, you'll have to, again, find out first what exactly happened.
08:18Multiple players are involved, including international ones.
08:21And that's when we, when you talk about accountability, you'll have to decide who does it fall on.
08:26If you talk about the Tata Suns, they already have the Jaguar Land Rover.
08:29Or Boeing.
08:30Or Boeing.
08:30Yeah, again.
08:32And with Boeing, the Dreamliners have had a good record.
08:35Then what happened?
08:36So, are you then telling me multiple factors are involved in the failure of this?
08:40Because why I add on here, Preeti, it's very interesting.
08:44The USA chopper recently, the mid-air collision that happened with a passenger jet.
08:51Or the Malaysian Airlines twin disasters that happened about 10 years ago.
08:55It was focused on the incident.
08:57When it happens in a case like India, like this one, this air crash happened, it becomes about India.
09:02Is India failing at it?
09:04India doesn't do maintenance.
09:05I saw a lot of racist comments that had come in in international media, on the comments, widely circulating.
09:11And that bothers me.
09:12That suddenly, this is about India, of how it's a country that doesn't do anything.
09:16Are we, therefore, jumping the gun before a conclusion has come?
09:20Rajdeep, do you concur with that?
09:21You want to comment?
09:22Or you concur with that?
09:23I just wanted to say that, you know, in the initial gap of information, and obviously, the investigation report will take at least three months.
09:33You know, social media filled in that gap.
09:36And as we now realize, much of it was incorrect.
09:38The fact is, I just want to bring one point up, Rajdeep, because we have been talking about engine replacements.
09:44Without commenting on this engine replacement, please remember that a leading airline called Indigo had massive issues with Pratt & Whitney engines.
09:54And there were technical issues that led to a grounding of dozens of aircraft, perhaps 70 if my memory serves me right.
10:01So, it's not as if there haven't been issues around Pratt & Whitney's supply.
10:07And that is the dominant engine maker as far as the Indian context is concerned.
10:11We'll have to wait for the investigation report to come out.
10:14But it would be absolutely erroneous to sort of say that, you know, this is an India-specific problem.
10:20Indians may he galti vii.
10:21I think that will be very wrong.
10:23Look, echoing what Pooja said.
10:24So, you know, Rajdeep, coming back to the question I asked.
10:26Is this an aviation issue or is it an Air India issue?
10:29Leave alone just an India issue.
10:30Look, the fact is, India's aviation standards are as good as anywhere else in the world.
10:36I mean, you have to go by hard data here.
10:38Our flight safety standards, our pilots, their record is second to none.
10:42However, when a major crash like this happens, within 30 seconds of takeoffs, questions will be asked.
10:49And, you know, I have been attacked for doing a program with a recognized Navy veteran with 20,000 hours of flying time
10:59who came on the internet, took it by storm by initially claiming or hinting at pilot error.
11:05We had him on air where he seemed to repeat the same theory and we were accused of platforming him.
11:10Why are you giving him a platform?
11:11Let's be honest.
11:12In that few days, several experts came across different channels with different theories.
11:16The channel doesn't endorse those theories.
11:19Individuals will come and have their say.
11:21They are experts out there.
11:22I don't think it is fair to damn Air India at this stage.
11:28It is not fair, therefore, to damn Indian aviation at this stage.
11:31And it is certainly not fair to damn Indian pilots at this stage.
11:34But I think an incident like this does highlight certain important issues, critical issues, some of which Naga flagged off.
11:41I mean, there are issues that Indian pilots are suffering from stress, from hours of work.
11:47Some of them tell me this off record.
11:49They can't even speak out because they have gag orders.
11:51But these are genuine concerns and I think they need to be addressed.
11:54You cannot just, my worry, I said this at the start, Preeti, month later, we will forget about this.
12:01And therefore, once it doesn't make the headlines, who is going to follow up that story?
12:05We should, I think, to ask the black box as of now, as we speak, is going to the United States for further.
12:13And there are excellent organizations who will do the investigation.
12:17My point is, I just want the truth to come out.
12:19That's all.
12:20That's all I'm asking.
12:21And that's the reason.
12:22On the black box, can I just clarify, there is nuanced clarity that has emerged.
12:26Now the government is saying that we will make an attempt to decode it here.
12:32Okay.
12:32In case it doesn't happen here, then it may go overseas.
12:35I have no problem with any of that as long as the truth comes out within a time-bound manner.
12:39That's all I'm asking.
12:40Do not allow public memory to disappear.
12:43I'm going to bring in Moshmi, but Naga Arjun also has a point to make.
12:46Go ahead, Naga.
12:51Preeti, the larger question is, we are not questioning the capability of Indian pilots, Indian infrastructure, Indian aviation.
12:58It's about how equipped are you to handle the emergency at that point of time.
13:02If I'm stress-free, I would handle it within a couple of seconds.
13:05If I have more mental stress, I would take 10 seconds to 12 seconds, even to realize that I have an error flashing on my screen.
13:12And that 10 seconds is crucial in aviation.
13:15And it can't be missed.
13:16That's exactly what we are saying.
13:18Pilots who fly red-eye flights, come back home, sleep at 10 o'clock, evening they are again called.
13:23The minimum rest period is only given.
13:25Where is the rest for pilots, including the cabin crew?
13:27They have been flying around the clock.
13:29And of course, they will be affected to handle emergency situations.
13:33That's the main question that we have to answer.
13:35But no, the DGCA doesn't pull off both the airlines.
13:37Both airlines are exploiting the crew.
13:40And that's the big question we have to answer.
13:41Of course, machines fail.
13:43But are the humans who fly this are equipped?
13:46To be honest, I have my own friends who are captains in both the airlines.
13:50They cry to me overnight saying, please someone put our point of view across.
13:54They have been crying.
13:55They miss their families.
13:57A lot of people, in fact, bribe the recruiting, in fact, rostering department.
14:02So that they can at least pay bribes and get out of the situation at that point of time.
14:05They don't want to fly in a situation when the father is admitted to a hospital.
14:09They are still pulled out to fly.
14:11There's so much of mental stress.
14:12I think that's the basic question that we have to address today.
14:15Our pilots and the cabin crew are in a good mental health condition to tackle the situation.
14:19You know, I want to bring in Moshmi.
14:20But I have an unpopular opinion in all of this.
14:23You know, we can keep going on and on on why, you know, blame pilots and all of that.
14:28But there is no holy grail in an accident.
14:30You've got to address each and every question.
14:32And you need to platform each and every opinion if you want to get answers.
14:36If you really, truly want to give back even a fig leaf of closure when it comes to the relatives of those who are on board the ill-fated 171, then there is no holy grail.
14:46Pilot error should also be on board for discussion like everything else.
14:51You cannot hide behind, oh, we are being attacked in India.
14:54I think the only true justice that we will do is to put everything out there.
14:57Moshmi.
14:57Preeti, I really feel, and I do agree with you at some point of time, my brother is also a pilot.
15:05And I just feel that somewhere, you know, one point that Rajdeep mentioned about the fleeting nature of tragedies.
15:12You know, one disaster and you cover it and it's in the conscience of the nation.
15:18You remember and pray for them.
15:20And then it's all lost in the following weeks and months.
15:24And in my years of journalism, we've covered many tragedies and many disasters.
15:29And, you know, every time a disaster or a tragedy like this happens, the horror hits home.
15:35True.
15:35That life is so uncertain.
15:38And at that point of time, imagine the plight of the people.
15:42So many families and lives destroyed.
15:45So there has to be an accountability.
15:49And if, you know...
15:51You know, if we can, Moshmi, if we can get together and question a locomotive engine driver of a train after an accident,
15:58everything has to be on board.
16:00You know, it was heartbreaking to see Captain Sabarwal's family, especially after the, you know, the crash and his funeral.
16:07It's heartbreaking.
16:08None of us want it.
16:09We wish it on no one.
16:11But, you know, what I don't get is, oh, how dare you question pilot error?
16:15It's in the gamut of investigation.
16:17And why shouldn't it be?
16:18And if there is somebody who is a platform with who questions, raises a question on that, then why not?
16:23Because there are multiple theories at work.
16:26Nobody's saying it was pilot error.
16:27But pilot error could very well be a pilot error.
16:29I am with one difference.
16:30I don't think we should come to conclusions.
16:32Of course.
16:32There are multiple theories.
16:34Multiple theories.
16:35So I think we should be willing to accept multiple theories without sort of waving the national flag.
16:39But at the same time, we should be very cautious.
16:42My point is, you know, I just had the Parliamentary Standing Committee panel report on Ministry of Civil Aviation.
16:46It raises several issues.
16:48Look at the vacancies, for example, in the Bureau of Civil Aviation Security.
16:51It's operating at a vacancy rate of 35%.
16:54The Udans scheme, very ambitious, good scheme.
16:57You need many more airports in this country.
16:58It's designed to connect 120 new destinations, budget slashed by 32%.
17:03These are all questions to be asked.
17:05At the end of the day, asking questions is all I'm saying.
17:08I also feel that the reason this discussion is happening and it's got this international coverage is because there is a class issue.
17:14When there is a train accident or a stampede of a certain nature.
17:17100% I agree with that.
17:18And here there are international passengers who were involved.
17:22There is a certain rich class, so to say, that can afford even now the flight tickets.
17:26And because they have died, we are having that discussion.
17:29Again, when we talk about accountability, it shouldn't be just about the aviation sector.
17:35It has to be whether the rot is at the top, like Rajdeep has mentioned.
17:38I want to take again from there.
17:40Institutions like DGCA, Bureau of Civil Aviation Security, Airport Authority of India, according to the parliamentary panel report he is talking about, has vacancies.
17:48How can you have vacancies for so long, despite it being flagged by the committee, when security should be a top priority?
17:55Why shouldn't it be filled up the highest?
17:56But I want to ask, then what about political accountability?
17:59What about political accountability?
18:01You have Neta's making reels.
18:03Isn't the bigger question that, you know, there was a point of time in politics where there was a train accident and the railway minister would resign.
18:13The larger question, if we don't address the element in the room.
18:17I don't know, Boshmi, are you saying that every time there is an air crash, the civil aviation minister of the country has to resign?
18:22That's a very dangerous argument to make in my view.
18:24Absolutely, it is.
18:25I mean, I do believe, having said that, that India is a master and deserves an Olympic medal in one sport.
18:31It's called passing the buck.
18:33We are very good at passing the buck.
18:34But the truth of the matter, I'm not sure whether the railway minister needs to resign whether the railway…
18:38No, but maybe not resign, but Rajdeep, there has to be some moral responsibility.
18:45I'll just say that.
18:46Why is it in India that, you know, we are a master of all the disasters and tragedies?
18:51Don't you think…
18:52But our master of the tragedies have been…
18:54Naga wants to…
18:55Naga wants to…
18:56I'm going to break this up for a minute.
18:57We lack no chance to have the political masters in terms of those who are at the helm of affairs for accountability.
19:03I'm sorry to be asking for the Karnataka stampede, for example.
19:06Yes.
19:06I mean, you suspect the police officer, but no one in the Karnataka…
19:09What about Karnataka stampede?
19:11Fair point.
19:12Fair point.
19:13I want to bring in Naga who wants to…
19:14If there is involvement of government religions, then the minister must…
19:16Okay.
19:17I'm going to…
19:18Naga Arjun wants to make a point.
19:19Go ahead, Naga.
19:20Preeti, it's radicalist to ask for political accountability in aviation industry because
19:27in railway…
19:28You can't compare apples and oranges.
19:30In railway ministry, 95% to 99%, you have a human error.
19:35In aviation, it's not always human error.
19:37Technical glitch, engines are failing, supposed to fail because it's a machine.
19:41But in two engines failing, it's one in a billion situation.
19:44But it did happen, right?
19:45There have been instances where engines have failed.
19:47Fair point.
19:48No human can do anything about it when engine fails…
19:50But Naga, not once.
19:51Naga, one second.
19:52No, no, no.
19:53Naga, I think you've got that wrong.
19:55Not once is somebody saying that the conclusion is human error.
19:59Yes.
20:00But I think it's going to be the biggest error on our account if we do not put human error
20:03as one of the working theories just because we don't want the spotlight on that.
20:07It's tragic.
20:08But it's a question that one needs to ask.
20:10No, fair point.
20:11Fair point.
20:12Fair point.
20:13Got it.
20:14Siddharth wants to make one final.
20:15Yes, we need to question…
20:16We need to question…
20:17I just wanted…
20:18Yeah, go ahead.
20:21Naga, conclude.
20:25Can I?
20:26Can I?
20:27Yes, please do.
20:29Naga, silence is golden.
20:31What I'm saying is…
20:32I'm not saying don't question the pilots.
20:34Even my first theory was…
20:35Did the pilots, instead of pulling the wheels up, the undercarriage up…
20:39Did they pull the flaps back up?
20:42That was also my question because it's absolutely incorrigible to understand that…
20:47How can the wheels be down even after the take-off and then no flaps being there on the aircraft.
20:52But I'm talking about political accountability to ask the resignation of Aviation Minister…
20:56Why?
20:57Okay.
20:58Preeti.
20:59Okay, one second.
21:00Let's Siddharth come.
21:01Siddharth wants to make one final.
21:02Maybe two engines have failed.
21:03The point really…
21:04That we need to focus on is…
21:05Today, we are talking about doubling the number of airports to 300.
21:11We have 1600 plus new aircraft on order.
21:15What is going to happen, Preeti, is that more and more Indians are taking to air every day.
21:22The state capacity, the regulatory capacity, the security capacity…
21:26And I think a very good job there.
21:29Right now, we should focus on DGCA, which is basically…
21:32During the course of flight, standards have to be maintained.
21:35I think there needs to be a massive capacity expansion.
21:39The most of the ecosystem which is the aircraft, the MRO, the maintenance is still in foreign hands, so to say.
21:47We need greater Atman Nirbharta.
21:49It's not going to happen overnight.
21:51What does this incident teach us?
21:53That there has been a catastrophic failure.
21:56And today, if you have noticed, just one, this last point.
22:00The fatalities that we saw, not just inside this ill-fated aircraft, but on the ground, point you to another fact.
22:07That our airports are, right now, bang in the middle of the…
22:10I've been saying that.
22:11I've been tweeting about…
22:12Okay, two minutes.
22:13I've been saying…
22:14Oh, please…
22:15Fair point.
22:16Fair point.
22:17The only area I fly into almost every week is Mumbai.
22:19And every time I'm flying into Mumbai, I see what's happening around me.
22:23And I get worried.
22:24Those are, you know, Chol's tenements that have always existed there.
22:26But it is worrying.
22:27They are so close to the airport runway.
22:29Now we are moving to Navi, Mumbai.
22:30Which for many years, part of that area was close to a bird breeding area.
22:36Now, all of this worries me that do we have sufficient audits?
22:41I would add to what was said by Siddharth.
22:43You're expanding.
22:44Great.
22:45We need to expand.
22:46Travel only be for the elite.
22:47You should expand it to every corner.
22:49But along with that, when you expand, make sure you have the infrastructure on the ground…
22:53Right.
22:54…that matches what you have in the end.
22:55That's what I would say.
22:56Ten seconds, Pooja, I'll conclude.
22:57I'll just say, I'll just conclude with that.
22:59There have been an umpteen number of cases where, you know, families, friends, relatives, even us, have faced very, very jittery flights.
23:07And we've seen non-functional ACs and poor facilities, so it's time for an overhaul.
23:14It's time to just stop the buck here and say no more anymore.
23:18Ten seconds, Pooja.
23:19All right, finally, it is a fact that India does take, to a certain extent, its lives lost cheaply.
23:24We have to remember that more.
23:26It is a fact.
23:27But importantly at this juncture, every time there is an overhaul that happens, Preeti, notice and remember that we are also often ready to jump and tarnish it.
23:36We've had the Kingfisher, we had Vistara, look what happened to those airlines.
23:40So, if there is an overhaul, if there is a development, let's try and appreciate it and keep it together.
23:44You know, okay, I'm going to close this show.
23:45But ultimately, you know, I would think all of us here and everyone who has heard of this crash wants the truth to come out.
23:52But the truth, the real truth will only come out if we accept and speak it for what it is.
23:58Everything else is the biggest disfavor to the families of the 275 people who died in this air crash.
24:05We are going to let it be.
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