Mike Brennan talks NMB with relationships, tech & talent

HousingWire

On today’s episode of Powerhouse, Diego sits down with Mike Brennan, President of Nationwide Mortgage Bankers (NMB), to discuss his recent move from Movement Mortgage and what drew him to NMB.   They dive into how NMB is navigating a slow housing market, the role of technology in client engagement, and why personal relationships matter more than ever. Mike also touches on growth strategies, new product offerings like reverse mortgages and non-QM loans, and his goal to double the company’s size over the next year.   Here’s what you’ll learn:  The power of strong relationships and leadership in driving mortgage success.  NMB’s focus on organic growth through talent and selective M&A.  How a lean, efficient structure supports agility and scale.  Using tech and servicing to create a customer-first experience.  Growth opportunities in reverse mortgages, home equity, and production expansion.   Related to this episode:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   ⁠Ex-Movement Prez Michael Brennan joins 'lean-and-mean' NMB | HousingWire⁠  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/after-leaving-movement-michael-brennan-looks-to-scale-something-lean-and-mean-at-nmb/  ⁠Nationwide Mortgage Bankers |⁠  https://nmbnow.com/  ⁠Michael Brennan - NMB | LinkedIn⁠  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-brennan-05998330  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript

00:00Welcome to Powerhouse, where we interview the biggest names in housing and ask them

00:12about their strategy for growth. I'm Diego Sanchez, president of HousingWire, and my guest

00:18today is Mike Brennan, president of Nationwide Mortgage Bankers. Mike, it's so great to have

00:24you on the show.

00:25Diego, it's great to be with you. I appreciate getting to spend time with you and your listeners.

00:30Yeah, this is going to be a great conversation. And you recently joined Nationwide Mortgage

00:37Bankers after 10 years at Movement Mortgage. What attracted you to NMB?

00:44Yeah, it's a great question. Man, what an incredible run at Movement Mortgage. Built so many relationships,

00:50got to grow personally, professionally, just will always cherish that time. But to be honest with

00:58you, the first thing that attracted me, and I'm going to say me and my wife, right? Because

01:02every decision you make, it's a family decision, was really about Rich Steinberg as a person first.

01:08It wasn't about the platform. You know, when I got the first opportunity, and I've known of him and

01:14known him for about 20 years, not really well, but then got the opportunity to spend some time with him.

01:19And just getting to see him really around his wife, around his kids, as a husband, father,

01:27and then even going into the extended to work family, learning about how there was so many people

01:34around him in his leadership team that he's worked with for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. That really

01:40meant a lot to me. It meant that he was really, it was really big about relationships and long-term

01:45value that he can add. And man, just love that. But then as far as the platform, once we fell in love

01:50with Rich, it was really about the platform. We saw a lean and mean platform that is built for the

01:56future of the business, for the market that we're in today. Not the market we've been in for the last,

02:02you know, 20 years or so. And really saw that they had all the key components that they needed

02:07to be successful and to build a national platform. And, and something we can really build upon.

02:13Yeah. I've gotten the chance to know Rich fairly well, really likable guy. Like you said, a real

02:19family guy. He sends me texts every once in a while just to catch up. And so I get that you had that

02:27vibe. How are you and Rich planning to divide up the executive responsibilities at NMB?

02:34Yeah. So it's, that was a really important thing for, for me. And the good thing is, uh, man, we hit

02:40it right off, right out of the gate. Um, you know, my background has always been, you know, first as a

02:45salesperson, I started as a loan officer 25 years ago, um, you know, building relationships, um, with

02:52realtors, with clients, um, have always had a really big, heavy sales focus and sales minded, um, love the

02:58operations. Um, what was great is all the things is I learned this a long time ago is focus on what you're

03:03great at, where you bring the greatest return and, and make sure you delegate or divvy up the other

03:09responsibilities where rich is great is really on the finance side, the cap markets legal. That's

03:14all the stuff that he loves that he's really great at. And the good thing is, um, that's not the stuff

03:19that I prefer to be in for me. I want to be out in the front line. I want to be with the salespeople.

03:24I want to be walking the floor with the operations. So, you know, when it comes to sales, operations,

03:29marketing, which is a huge passion of mine, um, it, all those areas I can really focus on.

03:35And, uh, and we really have a great connection on that piece where, um, man, we have regular

03:41consistent meetings with the groups. Um, but there's ownership, clear ownership. And, uh, for me,

03:46it's all about growth right now. So really glad that he can focus and take those, take those things.

03:50Yeah. It sounds like you guys really have your lanes now. NMB has historically been focused

03:58on originating in the Northeast. Uh, is it time for you and rich to grow NMB across the country?

04:07Yeah, absolutely. Um, I wouldn't have it any other way. That's what I've been in for the last 10 years.

04:12Um, it's been, it's just an incredible, um, experience to go break into new markets,

04:17learn about the different markets and the uniqueness of them. And, uh, and that's what

04:22I bring to the table. What rich has built though, he's, he built out a platform that is national,

04:26that's ready to grow. So yes, um, they have been focused, um, primarily in the Northeast. Um, but

04:32now what we're looking to do is I'm not going to say recruit is we want to attract good top talent

04:37and leaders throughout the country and specific areas that we know is an opportunity for us to grow.

04:42So, um, absolutely. We're already kind of getting things out there. What do we need to do to position

04:48ourselves for the future? So there's organic growth like recruitment and growing existing branches.

04:56Are you also thinking about inorganic growth through MNA? Yeah. So, um, that was originally

05:04when we were talking, that's what I was most interested in, but getting to, um, meet all the team

05:09members, um, the whole platform is the opportunity. Number one, and you said it, Diego is to build the

05:15exist upon the existing groups we have. So the groups that we have in the Northeast, man, how do

05:20we make them bigger, better, stronger? Um, and, um, and then really attract other talent throughout the

05:26areas. But again, we, we are definitely open to MNA opportunities. Um, it's gotta be selective,

05:31right? It's gotta be something that's a culture fit, um, would mesh well with the organization. And

05:36that's something that's a main focus for us. Um, but I, I would say right now it's about attracting

05:41good top talent organically. That's our main focus. What's your message right now with the

05:48housing market still being pretty slow mortgage rates staying high? How are you going or planning

05:56to attract people to the NMB platform? Yeah. So I would say first that, uh, hope is not a strategy.

06:03You know, I think for the last year, year and a half, two years, we've all been hoping for

06:06lower rates, more opportunities to market the change. And to be honest with you, you have to

06:11act as if, act as if this is the new normal, this is the market, and this is what you need to build it

06:16in. So how do you get lean and mean, um, keep expenses extremely low right now, um, and, uh, still

06:22be able to provide that relational piece to the consumer and your partners. Don't be transactional,

06:27be relational, build it, go deeper in those relationships. And, and man, there's so many

06:32opportunities for us to, to go out and open new areas of opportunity, um, to bring in the deals.

06:38It's not just the realtors, um, and which is a huge focus of us being relational, but it's financial

06:43planners, builders, um, being diversified is where it's at. But the main thing is, man, you have to act

06:49as if this market's not going to change, um, that the rates are going to stay like this for as long as

06:55we can tell. And, uh, but I think right now there's just huge opportunity just to, to build it and

07:00stay, stay close to the, to the fire. So is that your message to folks that you would like to attract

07:07that, that NMB is, is built for uncertain times or whether times are good or bad, or is there an

07:14additional message that you're, you're putting out there to attract people? Yeah. So I would say

07:20there's, I always say this with leaders, there's, there's two kinds of leaders. There's good weather

07:23leaders and there's bad weather leaders. Anybody can operate in good times. You know, right now

07:28is the people companies that are be able to turn a profit, pour back into their employees. Um, it's

07:35so important that you, you vet and you find the right platform for you. And it really is about being

07:40lean and mean, as I said earlier in the show, and that is about making sure that you have the right

07:46support, um, but that you don't have all these added layers to it. And, um, and I've talked about

07:52that before where, you know, it's the lead, there's difference between leaders and managers

07:57and, uh, leaders are somebody that helps you open new doors, helps build your business, um, helps

08:02you continue to grow. And that's what you need to focus on in an organization, not where there's

08:07multiple layers, where they're going to be like, where again, they're not adding value to the

08:11individual. Let's give that back to the, to the loan officer so they can go out and get more

08:15business. So for us, it's all about creating a concierge service where you can come in. You don't need to

08:20know all the answers. You just need to know where to get them. And that's what we're building for the

08:24originators to be successful and then help them grow their business. Um, I tell people, Hey, if it's

08:30not something, if you're going to make a lateral move, then stay where you're at more to the grass.

08:33But if we can demonstrate that we can help you take your business to another level, then, then that's

08:39what we want to attract and we want to get the right people. And to be honest with you, the most important

08:42thing is partnership. We want people not to want to come in and partner. Um, not that are here, um, just for a

08:49short period of time, we're always looking, you know, see what's out there. Somebody that truly

08:52wants to lock arms and partner and, uh, and we grow together. Attracting LOs and branch managers,

08:59you know, you put out what you think is going to be positive for them to come to you, but I would

09:06imagine you have some ideas of the kinds of LOs and branch managers that make sense for nationwide

09:13mortgage bankers. Who are those LOs? Yeah, great question. Um, relational, uh, focus on relational

09:20and add a long-term value, um, not just to their partners, but their customers. You know, it's not

09:25about sitting, going alongside a client for 30 days, closing the transaction and moving on. It's about

09:31being alongside with them for the next 30 years for all their financial needs, um, where you can be

09:36that trusted advisor. Um, I learned that years ago about the importance of, of building that strong

09:42relationship. So your clients are going to call you, ask you when they're making big purchases,

09:45um, if there's opportunities to get a free mortgage checkup and see if they can put themselves in a

09:50better position. Um, it's about being intentional to find out what their long-term goals are. And

09:55that's what we really look for in individuals, whether it's LOs, branch leaders is just making

10:00sure we have people that are focused on the long-term best interest of a client.

10:05Mike, it sounds to me like you and Rich want to mix it up with the big boys and mortgage a little

10:09bit. Is that, is that accurate? Um, again, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that was the best time,

10:15you know, being, um, one of the big boys, um, when you're big, it's hard to move. It's hard to be

10:20nimble. It's hard to take advantage of opportunities. Um, when you're a smaller organization,

10:24um, built again, lean and mean with low management, um, but make sure you have all the resources.

10:31Again, it will help you get more, more competitive, um, not just on pricing, but what your offerings

10:36are. Um, again, we can all close loans. We can all service loans really well, but for us,

10:41it's really about attracting and getting the right people and not putting a branch on every corner.

10:47Um, you know, there's an opportunity to find good leaders and man, really, really, you know,

10:51have a heavy focus on helping them grow within the market. There's so much opportunity to market

10:56share, even the big boys. I know we call them big boys, but you're talking one to one and a half

11:00percent market share. There's so much opportunity, so much business. Um, we can all play in the same

11:05sandbox and do well and just, and know how to run the business. But really we want to attract people

11:10that really want to focus on, on growth and, uh, and being with an organization where they can call

11:16and pick up the phone and we can, they'll be able to work with us. Not that we'll hire them and then

11:20we'll never talk to them again. And they're employee number 253. Now it's about being relational

11:26partnership and really growing with the right people. And to be honest with you, I see tremendous

11:31opportunity in this market brand right now. So in a recent interview with our managing editor,

11:37James Kleiman, you described nationwide mortgage bankers as no layers mortgage. And you've,

11:45you've referred to layers or lack of layers in our conversation right now. What do you mean by

11:51no layers mortgage? Yeah. Well, it goes back to when I started 25 years ago in the business,

11:56I had to go to my manager or managers for everything I needed to get done. I didn't have

12:01access to the processors, to the underwriters, to cap markets, to marketing, to it. I didn't have

12:07any of that. I had to go to them as a middle person to go get something accomplished. And 25 years ago,

12:13you needed that. I mean, geez, 15, you know, years ago, you needed that. Um, but the greatest thing is

12:19now you can build a platform and plug people directly into all the resources that they need.

12:24So what I mean by that is, um, you need a leader. There's again, as I said earlier,

12:29there's leaders and there's managers and the leaders are going to be great because man,

12:33they're going to help you. How did they come alongside and bring the resources to you to

12:38help you grow your business? Um, when there's three or four or five people above you, um, that

12:43are each getting an override on your business, and then you don't even have a conversation or a

12:48relationship with them and they don't add value, man, let's give that back to the consumer,

12:53to the, to, to the loan officer to go out and get more business. And the truth is,

12:57is that's why I said earlier about the concierge and you can plug them in and, and really get those

13:02free up, get a team that can come in and get those resources done so they can stay on the front line

13:07and go focus and get more business. So that's really where I see the future of the business right

13:12now. And it's a good thing. This is a great thing that we can sit there and say, Hey, we can get lean

13:17and mean, give the pricing to the street. Um, so we can do it. And again, you still have leaders.

13:22I'm still searching for leaders and there's a lot of, there's a lot of companies out there that

13:27have been making some shifts and how do they get streamlined and how do they get more, squeeze it

13:32down a little bit so they can give more to the LOs. So in that recruiting process where you're trying

13:37to attract, you know, really good producers to NMB, it sounds like you're less interested in

13:45non-producing kind of regional managers and leaders as opposed to the producing branch manager

13:51or the LO. Yeah, no, I would say both, Diego, because listen, even there's a lot of incredible

13:58regionals out there. I got to work with so many, so many good regionals as well. And a regional that

14:03wants to grow, um, and recruit, um, the non-producing, um, man, that's, that's actually something that I

14:09gravitate towards. Um, and, uh, because again, they can put a hundred percent focus on their

14:15individual salespeople to grow their business, not worried about their own pipeline. So I actually

14:19like that, that person. And there's a lot of regionals. Listen, if it's about titles, you can

14:24go any places and get titles. Um, if it's about growing a team and really managing this, I see it,

14:31man, it's like, man, you can be in business for yourself, but not by yourself. You can come build

14:35within the organization and utilize all these resources that are around you to grow the market.

14:40So I would say that we're open to both of them. Um, again, we want good people that want to grow

14:45the business, um, that, uh, and again, really care about the partnership of the organization.

14:51So Rocket has made some big moves so far this year and is one of really two companies, uh, the other

15:00being Zillow that are building this end-to-end platform for home ownership. I also know that

15:08Rich has been pretty interested in building a tech platform at NMB. How are you thinking about

15:14these big end-to-end platforms and where NMB can plug into that tech ecosystem?

15:22Yeah. So we, we definitely see some big moves and the, and the tech is at the forefront right now.

15:27Um, um, the, the, the question will be is, can they go from being transactional to being relational

15:33from being in a call center where you're calling out to clients, speaking to them, never meeting them,

15:38never finding out what their long-term goals are, learning about their family, um, what their

15:42specific needs are. So you can really customize a solution for that individual. Um, we'll see what

15:47happens, how they do it at scale that big. Um, I think they can see some challenges where for us,

15:53um, you know, just similar, um, but just smaller model is how do you create an ecosystem? How do

15:59you create that ecosystem where you have that customer for life that you can bring all the

16:03ancillary services in together, um, utilizing, uh, technology. Um, we're in a process, we got our NMB

16:09bot that we're testing out right now and using AI and how do you stay top of mind for the clients

16:14and really give them value, give them information on a regular basis. Cause the biggest need right now

16:20in our, in our business. And it has been for as long as I've been in is education is how do we

16:25educate consumers, our business partners on what the best resources are for, for, for the individuals,

16:32um, and, um, and make it ease of access. So for us, the difference is we're still going to meet face

16:38to face with that client. We're still going to meet them in their home, um, have them come to the office,

16:43um, have that resource, have local people being able to get them in their backyard. And I think that's

16:49going to be the differentiator for, for that, but technology, the platform, the servicing,

16:53it's all about creating an ecosystem where you can give them ease of access. It's not about

16:58upselling a client. Um, it's about man bundling up your services and giving them discounts, um,

17:06for that, which is what they need right now. You mentioned customer for life. And, um, that has

17:12me thinking about refinance and recapture opportunities. How do you think about servicing

17:19when you have a lot of the big servicers building a lot of tech to originate from their book? Um,

17:27so does NMB want to keep servicing in house? Do you sell your loans out? Talk to me more about

17:35servicing. Yeah. So in the customer for life, I mean, ideally you want to continue to do the servicing

17:40we service right now. We have the ability to service. We have the ability to scale that.

17:44Um, and there's opportunities as we know in the markets right now, where it makes more sense

17:48to sell off and you can negotiate, you know, your reps and warrants to make sure that you still have

17:52servicing rights. You can call on the client so you can negotiate that a little bit. Um, but

17:56regardless whether you're servicing or you're selling the loan, um, you can be intentional about

18:01use utilizing all the technology, your CRMs or tools, um, to stay top of mind with that client and

18:07let them know, like right now, the refi opportunities, that's what I'm most excited

18:11about. I mean, at 6%, they're saying there's an estimated 6 million people that can do a debt

18:15consolidation. Yes. People have three and a half, four, four and a half percent rates,

18:21but they're paying 28, 29% on credit cards, 78% on car notes. So, I mean, the blended,

18:26their blended rate could be high sixes, low sevens right now, if you take all their debt there. So I

18:31think see there's tremendous opportunity. The way you do that is staying top of mind. So what we're

18:36encouraging all of our team members to do right now is call your clients, do a free mortgage

18:41checkup, find out where it is, where they're paying. Cause a lot of them don't want to touch

18:45the mortgage, but they're paying more in their total monthly payment. You can save people money

18:50now just by reducing and doing debt consolidation. And it's about going through and finding out really

18:55what that strike price is. What is the number? What's that strike price where, Hey, if rates go to 6.25

19:00or 5.75 for Mr. and Mrs. Smith, they'll be able to sit there and do a debt consolidation and save a

19:06thousand dollars a month. So it's about being intentional and it's not just a CRM sending out

19:11candid journey emails about, you know, lasagna recipes and when to plant your flowers in the

19:18garden. No, it's about giving them stuff of substance, teaching them about the financial

19:22wellness education piece on that. So I think there's a tremendous opportunity, but again,

19:27it's that personal touch that's going to get them to that next level. Because what you want

19:31is when the big services call, you want them to say, Oh no, I'm calling Diego. I already know my

19:36numbers, what I got to do. And this is somebody I like and I trust. Sticking with customer for life

19:41for, for a moment. Are you also thinking about other products like reverse mortgages and home equity?

19:49Yeah, great. So, so just coming off the secondary conference in New York, uh, last week was great.

19:54So, so absolutely. So we have a reverse, um, team. I've had a lot of experience with reverse,

20:00um, over the past four or five years, building out an incredible team, something that we're really

20:05passionate, the opportunity for the reverse. It's one of the best financial tools out there.

20:10A lot of people have misconceptions about what it is and what it's not. So I think there's a good

20:14opportunity for education on the reverse on how people can use it as a financial tool.

20:19And, um, and then the other products. So we offer home equity closed end seconds.

20:24Um, and we're definitely, um, ramping that up because if rates do not go down for the next

20:30four or five, six, seven, eight, nine months, and somebody doesn't want to touch that first

20:35mortgage, well, there's an opportunity to tap into their equity. I mean, the average loan to

20:38value in the United States is like 52. There's never been more home equity in the history of the

20:43US than there is today. So there's an opportunity to go out, get a home equity loan or a closed end

20:49second, and then maybe down the road, do a consolidation. Um, when rates get down to a

20:53meaningful level, the other products I would tell you that we're really, really, really bullish on

20:58right now is a non-QM. Um, we're seeing huge emerge. I mean, we're almost 26% of our closed loans

21:04is non-QM, which is a very high percentage. And so there's a lot more opportunities out there

21:10to have these deals that are, that are really geared towards, um, self-employed investments,

21:15second homes. And again, I think there's a lack of education out there to the realtors and the

21:20consumers about what's available and the pricing. I mean, they're not far off of agency pricing, so

21:25they're very competitive right now. So we're really strong on making sure we add new products

21:30and we have a whole product team that meets on a regular basis to figure out is like, Hey,

21:34what do we need to position ourselves for the next three, four or five months from now?

21:38I love that. Uh, so if you and I were to talk again in 12 months, where do you want to be in

21:46terms of monthly production, team size, you know, any other kind of growth metrics? How are you

21:54thinking about this next year? Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm crazy growth minded. So, you know, my first thought

22:00is, Hey, I want to double in 12 months. It's doable. I've done it. We had the experience. Um, and, uh,

22:06and that's where I want to be. The most important thing right now is just building the best of the

22:10best platforms and the foundations. So making sure that, you know, putting, we put together a whole

22:15operating system throughout, um, nationwide mortgage bankers where, um, now we have an operating system.

22:20We have specific goals. Where do we want to be? Um, the most important thing, Diego was meeting all

22:25the team members. Um, for the last two months, I've been speed dating, doing zooms with 80 branches,

22:31getting to know them, know them personally, their families. Um, you know, what's important to them?

22:35How do we help them grow? That was the most important thing for us to focus on right now.

22:40And then building out the platform, what do we need to tweak? And now we're starting to get into

22:44growth mode. We're starting to turn that engine on. We're starting to attract and start having

22:48conversations with people and really make sure that it's a good fit. It's more important who you say

22:53no to than who you say yes to. Um, it's not just about hiring anybody. It's about making sure you have

22:57the right people for long-term. I'm really big on retention. If I want to hire somebody,

23:02um, if we're going to bring somebody on board, man, we want them here for life. We want a partnership.

23:06So the one thing that I love about rich and I loved it from the beginning is he's more,

23:11more focused on, Hey, what can we do to give the best tools and resources, not just business, but also,

23:18you know, personally to our employees. So that's what we're looking at is how do we build something,

23:22man, that we're partnered up and people, they never want to leave. They never want to pick up their

23:26heads. So that's a focus for us right now. And, uh, and that's what I'm excited about,

23:30but I would say, Hey, double in 12 months for sure. So rich is, I believe out on long Island,

23:39uh, and you're in Charlotte. So does your location mean that NMB needs to push into the Southeast and

23:47the mid Atlantic? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a, I'm a New Jersey, uh, North Jersey, um, native, um,

23:55and, uh, moved down to Charlotte five years ago. It's, it feels like everybody's following us,

23:59um, from the Northeast and they're moving down. Charlotte's one of the fastest growing cities in

24:03the country right now. Charlotte is an absolute incredible place to, to live, work, raise a family.

24:09Um, we've just fallen in love, um, with Charlotte and, and we knew right away. It's like, no, we're,

24:14we're not, we're not moving back up to the Northeast. I travel up there every other week. I have a lot of

24:19family and friends. Um, but we are, we are actually just getting ready to announce about building out

24:23a, uh, support center down here in Charlotte as well, as well as Melville, Long Island.

24:28We were going to be building out there where there's just so many good, so much talent down here,

24:33so many good people. And, uh, so, and again, we just fell in love with it. So yes, we are, we are

24:38looking offices being worked on as we speak and, uh, man, we're already starting to have conversations.

24:43And we know this, we can attract some good top talent down here to help us take to that next level,

24:49especially as we, as we build out the national platform. Mike, I love having conversations with

24:56other growth minded leaders, people who are obsessed with growth. It's been so great having

25:01you on powerhouse today. Thank you so much. Yeah, I appreciate it, Diego. It was great spending

25:05time with you and your listeners. Thank you.

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