Pune (Maharashtra) June 3, 2025 (ANI): Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) General Anil Chauhan has called out the irrationality and brutality of terrorism, framing the recent Pahalgam terror attack as the “starting point” of a broader campaign against India’s sovereignty.
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00:00that war is a continuation of policy by other means.
00:03If you look at this particular statement, I, as a scholar, as an army officer,
00:09draw two important derivatives, conclusions out of this particular statement.
00:13One is that war is a finite kind of an entity.
00:16That means there is politics, and when you fail in that politics,
00:20then you resort to use of force.
00:22So then there is war.
00:23And when war ends, politics, in the sense negotiations against us.
00:26So we have seen that in 71 war, that before that, there's politics,
00:31and then there's a 14-day war, and then again you go back to similar negotiations.
00:34So this is a definite end point and a start point to this activity of war.
00:42I think this particular paradigm, which Clauswish has postulated,
00:46or the conclusion which we have drawn is entirely wrong.
00:49Today, war is a continuation of five Cs,
00:52which I say as cooperation, competition, confrontation, conflict, and combat.
00:58That's war.
00:58In one particular sequence, they continue happening.
01:01And the state tries to include any kind of instrument which is available to it
01:06for achievement of its political objectives,
01:09that is diplomatic, informational, military, and economic.
01:12You've recently seen this war on trade and tariff, actually.
01:16That's basically for attainment of political objectives.
01:19So, but this is what I said, you know, in Operation Sindur also,
01:25war and politics was happening as a parallel kind of phenomenon,
01:30and it was being exercised also through communication,
01:33which I made a mention initially, both direct and indirect communication.
01:37So, second important conclusion, but I draw from the statement,
01:43which has initially said that war is a continuation of policy by other means,
01:48is that war is a rational decision.
01:50That means, and I also spoke about reason when I said about government takes a rational decision about war.
01:55And this takes the decision when it has exhausted all its other instruments of power.
01:59So, but then the important question comes in, you know,
02:03this whole start point of this particular war was this Pahelgan terror attack.
02:07So, is terrorism a rational act of warfare?
02:11I don't think that's a rational act because terrorism has no defined logic.
02:17It has no political, military end state.
02:20Terrorism means, and then end it itself,
02:23terrorism or terrorism is a form of warfare that defines rationality.
02:26This is because the terrorist doesn't have anything to lose.
02:30He's a non-state actor.
02:31He doesn't have a state.
02:33So, if he doesn't have a state, he's not worried about territory, people, or the ideology,
02:37which form the three important constituents of a state.
02:40So, this is, terrorism is absolutely irrational if it is happening in a standalone mode.
02:45But what happens when, you know, there's about state-sponsored terrorism?
02:51Is this rational?
02:52I think that, you know, this seems to be a rational decision
02:55when state is employing terrorism as an instrument to achieve political objectives.
03:01And, say, like, so it's a reasoned kind of a decision which state takes.
03:06And so, as our adversary is concerned, he's taken the decision that to bleed India by a thousand cuts.
03:13And when I say that this has been a state policy, this I am not saying.
03:17If you go and look at the literature on issues, you'll find Peter Chark, Kristen Fair,
03:23who have cited the former director of journalism of ISI,
03:26explicating this particular strategy as to how they will bleed India by a thousand cuts.
03:30And this particular doctrine is found in various studies in Pakistan's Staff College, Quetta, etc.
03:35So, this is a normal talk which happens in Pakistan.
03:39And, of course, officially we know in 1965,
03:41Zulfi Khar Ali Bhutto declared a thousand-year war against India
03:45when he addressed the United Nations Security Council.
03:48And probably Ziaul Haq gave form to this particular doctrine of thousand-years war.
03:53And someone added that, you should add a thousand cuts into it.
03:57And similar kind of venom was spewed by General A.C. Munir against India and Hindus.
04:03It spewed just a few days or weeks before what happened in Pahalgam.
04:09So, since this is a rigid decision, it can be also, I believe, that retracted.
04:16Because now Pakistan is faced with a different kind of a prospect that he faces military action
04:21in case we find terror happening against us.
04:24And also, we said that we'll have water as well as, you know, this thing will not float together.
04:32So, we have kind of raised the bar.
04:36We have connected terror to water.
04:38And we have drawn out new lines for military operations against terror.
04:43Sometimes I feel this particular policy also got exentuated after Pakistan acquired nuclear weapons.
04:52And they tried to exploit this stability-unstability paradox.
04:56That's nuclear weapons will provide stability, strategic stability between the two nations.
05:01And below that, this terrorism can contain.
05:05But, of course, what India has done now is between – there are now two red lines.
05:10Between these two red lines, it's opened up the space for conventional operations.
05:13So, that's a major change which has happened after Sindhu.
05:17Let me talk about rationality once again in the context of Operation Bunyan al-Marsus.
05:23And which I said, you know, I've said once or twice earlier that in this whole business of war, warfare, or use of force,
05:33the military people are the ones who are most rational because we understand that, you know, war and warfare is very, very unpredictable.
05:41And we also probably understand the consequences of war.
05:45So, that I think is important.
05:47So, although lost by Pakistan on 10th of May at about 1 a.m., its aim was to get down India to its knees in 48 hours,
05:57multiple attacks were lost.
05:59And in some manner, they have escalated this conflict, which we had actually hit only terrorist targets, but also into the military domain.
06:09From their perspective, it would have been rational in the sense they would have said that you use military means to hit these targets.
06:15But it was also rational on their part of the operation, which they thought they'll continue for 48 hours,
06:20folded up in about 8 hours, and on 10th.
06:23Then they picked up the telephone and said they wanted to talk.
06:27And I think that the rationale behind this coming, the realization coming in, stemmed from two facts.
06:34That one is, they must have assumed that if they continued this mode, they're likely to lose much more.
06:40So, hence they picked up the telephone.
06:41And second thing, since they had stuck us at multiple fronts, they still did not have the benefit of understanding what they had stuck.
06:50So, they must have thought they must have stuck, and hence there's time to talk now.
06:53And if they don't, they'll tend to lose more.
06:56So, these were the two factors which would have made them to take.
06:59But it's only after, say, one or two days, they would have realized that all their kind of attacks, which they had not against us, had not fortified, and they had all kind of failed.
07:10And so, I think this is what had happened.
07:12The second thing is, in the armed forces also demonstrated a lot of rationality.
07:21We had informed Pakistan on the day we had done this surgical strikes on 7th.
07:26We had done it from 1.105, that's 5, at about 1 o'clock to about 1.30.
07:33And after five minutes later, we had picked up the Director General of Military Operations to say that we have done this.
07:40And we have hit only terror targets.
07:43Military establishments have been out of the purview of the strikes.
07:46And we have ensured that there are no collateral damage, especially civilians.
07:50And we need to talk to each other.
07:52So, that was, I think, a rational decision.
07:53And subsequently, when there was a rhetoric from Parkside, we also said that in case Pakistan hits us, hits military establishments, we are going to hit them back.
08:05We'll hit them harder.
08:06And if they stop, we are going to stop.
08:08So, when Pakistan did ask for talks and de-escalation, we also, at some point of time, not immediately, at some point of time, I would say, did accept what they were saying.
08:19So, this is what I thought was the political part of war.
08:26And now I'll talk about the combat part of war.
08:30That's the second part, which I said it had four constituents.
08:33That's the combatant, the yodha, the battlefield, the combat zone, where the fight takes place.
08:38It talks about technology.
08:40And fourth is about tactics.
08:42So, these are the four things, I think, important, part of warfare.
08:45So, combatants, actually, today, earlier we all thought people in uniform, organized military forces are part of combat.
08:55But today we have paramilitary forces, mercenaries, contractors, terrorists, jihadis, private companies, big technology.
09:03So, we had heard about, long back, about the Wagner Group, similarly, Blackwater Groups.
09:09A lot of security companies provide armed security, mission support, and risk management services, not only to corporate houses, but also governments.
09:18So, it's not that combatants are only uniform people paid for by the government.
09:23It's different.
09:24And today, combatants may also include citizens, neutral citizens, or nations, or netizens, rather.
09:31And they can take part, independently or otherwise, based on their support to any ideology in cyber warfare, psychological operations, media outreach, et cetera.
09:41So, the concept of this war will be only conducted by combatants, which are paid for the government, is getting diluted slowly.
09:49There are other players who are coming into fray.
09:52And second thing is this combat zone.
09:55This has expanded phenomenally.
09:58So, what we see that not only we have land, air, traditional domains, and maritime, but we also now have space, cyber, electromagneting domain.
10:09A lot of activities took place, actually, between both of us, over four days, on the electromagneting domain.
10:15Activities also took place in cyber domain.
10:18We also had a lot of activities in the domain of perception management, information war, or maybe you can call it cognitive warfare, in which the mindscape shaping the mind of the people is more important than the landscape, what happens on land, et cetera.
10:33We also saw the expansion of battle space on the traditional domains.
10:38So, initially, you could see war and warfare, contact warfare, you know, within five or ten kilometers.
10:44Today, we expanded that battle space phenomenally.
10:47Then we see the whole length and breadth of Pakistan could be under coverage of India's weapon systems, not for any other engine, but very, very deliberate precision strikes.
10:56Some strikes could be as narrow as two meters or three meters square, at ranges greater than, say, 300 kilometers.
11:04That's what has been demonstrated.
11:06So, when I said combat, combatants, combat zone, these are the kind of changes which are taking place in the future.
11:12And I'll dwell upon now the more important part of technology, which I think is becoming very, very important.
11:21And the warfare today is at the cusp of, if I could say, a third revolution in military affairs.
11:28The first revolution in military affairs was something to do with maneuver warfare, which came about because of advances in ground mobility and air mobility.
11:36You could transport people faster.
11:38It also was there because of long ranges.
11:40The second revolution in military affairs was net-centric warfare, in which battlefield transparency, situational awareness, this became important.
11:52Information dominance became important.
11:54That came about by the U.S. armed forces because of advances in communication technology and computer technology and ICT.
12:02And today, we are at the cusp of a third revolution in military affairs, which I've termed as convergence warfare.
12:10Because what we are seeing is not one technology, but there are a number of technologies which are affecting warfare presently and they'll happen in future.
12:20All of these are heralding a new change in warfare, which is bringing about a change which is disruptive and non-linear.
12:27And it's actually occurring at a pace which is unprecedented.
12:32And these technologies range from sensor, advanced materials, propulsion, hypersonics, artificial intelligence, big data, advances in cyber space, all of them.
12:43But what happens is generally we take all these advances in technology and consider them as one fact.
12:49What I will do is I'll try and identify four trends in these technologies to see where warfare is progressing further.
12:57So, the first trend which I'll talk about is sensor technologies.
13:02And this is ushering in a new level of battlefield transparency and situational awareness in the field of warfare.
13:11You see, we have natural and man-made sensors.
13:16It's a competition between these two, if you have it to say.
13:18So, we are about 8 billion people on this earth.
13:22So, we have 16 billion eyes, actually, as sensors.
13:25We are seeing each other.
13:26Today, we may be having more than 8 billion artificial ISR sensors operating.
13:32All of us having a mobile phone, which has got a camera, you've got a laptop, iPad, etc., which has got a sensor.
13:39There are a large number of cameras over here.
13:41There are sensors of this room, which are capturing those images.
13:44You go outside on this road, there are a number of sensors over here.
13:48There are sensors deployed in air.
13:50There are sensors deployed in space.
13:52There are sensors deployed undersea.
13:53So, it's not only the range of sensors, but the deployment of sensors is much more than what natural way you can do it.
14:03It's also the type of sensor.
14:05We only had, say, five sensors, that is, touch, hearing, smell, vision, and taste.
14:10But today, the kind of sensors we have is seismic, chemical, biological, optical, SAR, infrared, ELINT, AIS, acoustics, ultrasonic, magnetic, electromagnetic, quantum, atomic, radio frequency.
14:25So, we have overtaken nature, actually, in numbers, quality, deployment, all of you.
14:30What is this going to lead us to?
14:32This is going to lead us to absolute transparency.
14:37So, today, there cannot be anything like surprise in battlefields.
14:41It's everything open.
14:42And the second thing, I think, today, when we talk about, if there's no surprise, then the only way you can do it is by deceiving him, probably.
14:50You'll have to think of different kind of techniques in warfare.
14:55The second trend, I think, is related to speed, velocity.
15:01I call it celerity.
15:02And this segment is driven by advances in hypersonics, whether it is guide or cruise.
15:09We saw that BrahMos missile at 2.8 Mach.
15:12You can have today missiles at N7, N7, N8 Mach flying.
15:16We also have fractional orbital systems.
15:20Along with this, what's happening is still technologies are coming in.
15:23So, it becomes very difficult to detect.
15:26In any case, you start having drones, which are very, very small.
15:29And you can have drones in swarms.
15:32So, there are no radar systems, which are actually made to track large aircrafts, moving at a reasonable speed of one or two max.
15:38Then, you have one-hand hypersonic weapons, which are following different kind of trajectories.
15:42And, on the other hand, you have drones, which are as small as this.
15:46And there are no radars which can actually track it.
15:50And then, you can move it in swarms, etc.
15:52So, what's happening is all this in combination, lower radar signatures, high speeds, and intelligent routing, etc.,
16:02are making these kind of threats invisible, inaudible, undetectable, enhanced, untargetable.
16:09So, you're kind of vulnerable everywhere.
16:11So, on one end, we can see the range of this action.
16:16So, what you're introducing is kind of non-linearity and ultimate form of non-linearity.
16:22You can have a contact battle at one or two kilometers, and then you can have a battle which is being fought at 300 kilometers or 250 kilometers.
16:31So, that's the kind of unlinearity, and with impunity, you can do it.
16:35Because, it's very difficult for the opposition to actually devise a system to guard against it, or to hit against it,
16:41unless it's synchronized systems in a very, very effective kind of a manner.
16:45So, it's like I said, ultimate non-linearity and expansion of battle space.
16:52So, it will also probably, maybe, we'll have to think of large platforms, like large ships, tanks, etc., because these become very vulnerable.
17:02And, your planning and preparation, coordination for such kind of a defensive act will also require a lot of thought in future.
17:09So, we may have to require a layered kind of resilient defenses in depth to guard against these kind of assets.
17:17The third important trend, which I see, is something to do with robotics and automation.
17:28And, this includes unmanned systems, automated autonomous systems, along with, now you have manned and unmanned.
17:37You have one manned aircraft with, operating two or three unmanned aircrafts along the list.
17:42One manned tank with a two, three unmanned kind of thing.
17:46Operating in a collaborative kind of an environment.
17:49So, you also will have an exoskeleton system that enhance human performance today.
17:56So, you can lift up one ton of weight because you're having an exoskeleton system.
18:01You can run faster than any other human being.
18:04So, tomorrow you'll have systems like this.
18:09So, this is going to increase efficiency and reduce human risk during warfare.
18:15And, hence, there will be propensity to use force because that human element of warfare, that gets reduced.
18:22So, what's going to happen is, in recorded history, always, there was combat between always two human beings.
18:29That's what has happened.
18:31So, there could be, you could be better armed.
18:34You could be with a sword.
18:36I could be with a lance.
18:37You could be with a helmet.
18:38I could be with a shield.
18:39You could be on a charger.
18:40I could be on an elephant.
18:42But, essentially, the war was between two human beings.
18:46But, today, we are at a cusp when war could be between human beings and machines.
18:50And, tomorrow, it could be between machines and machines.
18:54And, machines that are autonomous, intelligent, and take decisions.
18:58The fourth kind of trend, which I call as data-centric warfare, that is because of a large amount of advances in technologies, artificial intelligence, machine learning, big data, large language models, edge computing, et cetera.
19:15So, this is going to be a large amount of data and data analytics.
19:20So, what we are going to happen is, when we said, you know, in the third, second generation warfare, there was net-centric warfare, in which we relied on information superiority over the enemy.
19:31Today, you are relying on distance superiority.
19:33So, in a war engagement, if there were ten decisions to be taken for, means, application of force, one after the other, in each and every engagement or decision of mine, I will be better than yours because this is based on better and better data and decisions.
19:47So, hence, I will beat every cycle of decision from the adversary.
19:52So, this would lead to digitization of the battlefield and intelligentization of the battlefield in some manner.
20:00And, this is going to affect the other three elements, which I said earlier.
20:04Sensors, so that the data from that can be analyzed.
20:07Robotics, so that automated kind of a kill chance can be reduced.
20:11Celerity, speed, because unless things are networked, you will not be able to pick up things faster.
20:16So, this is going to produce another kind of revolution, warfare, which I said will lead to cognitive or distant superiority.
20:27So, something similar.
20:30Green shoots of that were visible in Operation Sindhu.
20:33So, of course, there are many other technologies which are impacting warfare.
20:38They may be in space, cyber, quantum, many other.
20:42But, I have just tried to outline four important trends in technology.
20:48In each of them, there could be hundreds of technologies.
20:50And, that is going to affect warfare in future.
20:52So, I said this third revolution in military affairs is known as convergence.
20:58Because, a number of things are converging together to revolutionize warfare.
21:03So, because it's a convergence of data-centric warfare, celerity, and remote-centric warfare.
21:09It's a convergence of kinetic and non-kinetic, including cognitive, into one domain.
21:14It's a convergence of first revolution in military affairs with second and third.
21:18So, we're not fighting only war, which is in the third revolution.
21:22But, there's a warfare, which is many more warfare.
21:24And, net-centering is also happening, taking place at the same time.
21:27It's a convergence of tactics, operational art, and strategy.
21:31Because, of the extreme non-linearity I've spoken about.
21:34So, all type of elements, this is being done.
21:37Elements are being fought.
21:39So, it's going to converge old and new domains of warfare.
21:42Then, I say new domains in cyberspace, electromagnetic spectrum, cognitive with old domains.
21:47Like, land, sea, and maritime domain.
21:49It's going to converge time and space, both of them.
21:52So, these are the kind of changes we may foresee in the future.
21:57And, along with it, what did we see?
22:03Did we see elements of this or green shoots of this in Operation Sindhu?
22:07Yes.
22:09And, to us, I would say that this was the kind of first non-contact warfare, which we fought.
22:15We didn't see each other.
22:16We saw it either as radars or at different ranges.
22:20Except for what was happening on the line of control.
22:23And, it was mixed of kinetic and non-kinetic.
22:26When I say non-kinetic, that happened in the information domain.
22:30That happened in the cyber domain.
22:32And, of course, there was a kinetic operation where destruction was being caused to each other.
22:37It was also non-linear in nature.
22:39So, there's something happening on the line of control and something happening as far back as Noor Khan or Sargoda.
22:44So, at huge distances from the border, simultaneously, non-linearity.
22:50It was networked.
22:51It means, at least the defensive part of it.
22:54You must have read about it, that we had networked our air defense architecture of the Air Force and the Army and the Maritime Air Defense architecture.
23:02They go across the air and IACCS so that they could give one comprehensive kind of a picture.
23:09So, you can provide a layered kind of it.
23:10So, better information, faster information available to our side.
23:15We had also tried to kind of network or counter US system, which we were countering drones.
23:20Not so much, but some kind of, in this 7, 10, 15 days, we were able to do that.
23:27So, that I think, it was also multi-domain.
23:30The first time, it means, we were using warfare was in maritime, land, air, cyber, space, electromagnetic spectrum.
23:39It means, all this electronic warfare batons, which are deployed, which are set with countering US systems, they're able to negate that kind of a threat which was coming in from Pakistan.
23:48So, this was happening there.
23:50And, some green shoots of even intelligent kind of warfare.
23:54So, how AI can be used to do some kind of a predictive analysis.
23:58So, this was happening.
24:00And, last but not the least of combat, I said, there's the fourth element.
24:05The fourth element I talked about was about tactics and strategy, and how that's getting affected.
24:10That's about, I have spoken about in parts.
24:13That's about demassification of the battlefield.
24:17Yet, integration of capabilities of diverse nature.
24:19It's leading to ultimate non-linearity and defenses in depth.
24:24I've spoken about vulnerability of large platforms and establishments, and I've talked about importance of deception over surprise.
24:33So, these are the kind of changes which we'll have to live with in future.
24:36In my concluding remarks, I can only say that Operation Sindhur created a kind of a history of sorts as far as air warfare is concerned.
24:49Successful operations were carried out against an adversary which was almost equally massive, if you can even say.
24:55It was not operations against an adversary which had no air force or no air defense worth its salt.
25:01It was against an adversary, and against that, if you were able to carry out relentless operations, deep inside, with precision, and offensive intent, I think that was a big achievement.
25:13And, we were able to penetrate those air defense networks with impunity, and at will.
25:18So, history, because I'm saying this is because exhibition of this particular superior air power was demonstrated.
25:27against someone which already had some good capabilities in this particular field.
25:32So, that was all I had to say about future warfare and wars.
25:37I hope you get a fair idea as to how warfare is evolving.
25:42And, this particular preparedness of the armed forces is first about thinking.
25:49We should be able to understand where warfare is going so that we can change our tactics,
25:55get your equipment profile right, understand, have your organizational structures right,
26:00have your doctrines and concepts right.
26:03So, in this particular thought process, in this whole, it's not the job of only the armed forces, people like me,
26:09or this young generation who are going to be doing this probably after five or ten years,
26:14which is also the role of veterans, the academia.
26:16Everyone is the whole of nation, to understand where we are evolving, what's happening,
26:22so that, you know, we are better prepared as a nation to take on these kind of challenges.
26:28Thank you, everyone, for this patient hearing.
26:32Thank you, sir.
26:37Now, I can take on a few questions.
26:39We will have a vote of thanks from two questions.
26:51Okay.
26:51We'll have a question and answer session.
26:53Yeah, yeah.
26:55Due to paucity of time only, we will receive two questions from the Department of Defense and Studies student,
27:01one from this side and one from this side.
27:03So, girls, anyone from this side?
27:06Yeah.
27:07Hello.
27:07Good afternoon, sir.
27:10Thank you for your insightful lecture on future wars and warfare.
27:15So, my question is, what are the losses incurred or experienced by Pakistani side during Operation Sindhu?
27:24And from this, what can be the potential strategic insight we can draw for future conflicts and the evolution of warfare, sir?
27:34Very nice question.
27:35You know, when I was asked about losses on our side, I said, these are not important.
27:41The results in how you act is important.
27:43So, it would be not very correct to talk about losses, means numbers, et cetera.
27:54I'll give a detailed kind of an answer on this.
27:57You see, in a match, suppose you go into a football match and you win 3-2.
28:01He scored two goals and you hold four goals.
28:04So, that's an even-sided match.
28:06But, suppose you go in a test match, cricket test match, and you win by innings defeat.
28:13Then there's no question of how many wickets and how many balls and how many players.
28:16It's an innings character for the people.
28:22But, since there is always this inquisitivity as to the result of your strikes, which was visible, which was more in psychological domain and what was visible to us, all of us.
28:36I mean, not to us, to globally, to everyone.
28:40So, based on technical parameters like electronic intelligence, signal intelligence, at some point of time, we will take out this particular data and share it with us.
28:50To answer those queries and inquisitiveness of people like you who keep telling me how many aircraft did we destroy, how many radar did we destroy.
28:59We will make a rough assessment of that and come out with that shortly.
29:04One last question.
29:05Sir, my name is Om.
29:08I am from the Defense Department.
29:10So, initially, it appeared that Op Sindhur will be a long-drawn conflict.
29:15But, what made the Pakistani side capitate so fast and so suddenly?
29:21Please, Sid.
29:23I think, in some part, I was able to address this.
29:27What I said was, from our side, we didn't want to get into a long-drawn kind of conflict.
29:32We've seen our experience in Operation Prakaram.
29:35We've been there for almost about nine months.
29:38It involves a lot of expenditure, disrupts everything.
29:41And we had seen this, to some extent, after Balakot.
29:44You know, there was a deployment which we had mobilized.
29:48So, in this particular case, what happened was, before this mobilization could be completed, the operations was halted.
29:58Of course, Operation Sindhur, as you know, is not over as yet.
30:01It continues.
30:02It's a temporary cessation of hostilities.
30:05There's a need to keep our guard up.
30:07So, this, I think, is important.
30:09But, as far as the Pakistani side is concerned, I can make a guess, two guesses.
30:15That is, one, that they were losing things faster at a very, very long distance.
30:21And they thought that if this continued for some more time, they're likely to lose more.
30:25And, hence, they picked up the telephone.
30:29Second thing, give the enemy also, your adversary due.
30:33He had also attempted a large number of attacks.
30:36On 10th, starting from 1 o'clock till about 9.30, 10.
30:39Huge number of attacks.
30:41They continued subsequently also.
30:43And he would have assumed that some of them are as successful as Indians have been.
30:49Of course, that didn't happen.
30:51And he had no way to realize this.
30:53Like, in the initial stages also, when we are hitting very deep, I'm not talking about the first day.
30:58On 7th, we had ensured that we had all kind of images.
31:00But when it's a dynamic war, then we really did not know what is the effect on Sargoda, what is the effect on Murid, what is the effect on Bulari.
31:09So, what is the effect on Jakobabad?
31:11It's after when to get a satellite imagery.
31:13So, the first few hours, you're not very sure.
31:16Of course, we were all aided by Pakistanis themselves because they were putting up things in the social media.
31:21So, we had some idea of its success.
31:23But we had to wait for confirmation from satellite imageries and other sources, say, signal intelligence or otherwise.
31:32So, we were quite sure.
31:33They were also not sure.
31:34They might be hoping that they've also done similar kind of a damage.
31:38But probably their hopes have belied after three or four days when they would have searched the satellite imageries from whichever country they're buying from, that they've not done.
31:47So, by the time it was too late.
31:52Thank you, everyone.