Aaron Maté explores the complex dynamics of whether the United States can engage in direct talks with Hamas without involving Israel. Delving into the political, diplomatic, and strategic challenges, this discussion raises questions about peace prospects and regional stability.
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#AaronMaté #USAndHamas #MiddleEastTalks #Diplomacy #Israel #PeaceProcess #ConflictResolution #USForeignPolicy #Hamas #MiddleEastPolitics #Negotiations #InternationalRelations #PeaceTalks #Geopolitics #RegionalStability #DiplomaticChallenges #GlobalAffairs #PoliticalAnalysis #PeaceProspects #BreakingNews
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00:00Transcribed by —
00:30Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
00:35Today is Friday, May 15th, 2025.
00:40Our dear friend and world traveler from Turkey, Aaron Latte, is here now.
00:45Aaron, a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you very much for joining us.
00:48Is Trump sick and tired and finally manifesting his sickness and tiredness of Bibi Netanyahu?
00:55I wish I could say he was. And if he reaches a deal with Iran, which looks possible,
01:03then you can say that he certainly is moving away from Netanyahu.
01:07But there's been a lot of optimism in the aftermath of Trump's speech in Saudi Arabia,
01:12where he talks about neocons and interventionists.
01:15And he said some good things about how these people have ruined the Middle East.
01:18But until he actually does something that breaks from the current policy,
01:23the current Trump policy of backing Israeli aggression,
01:26where every single day there are new massacres for all of us to see on our social media feeds,
01:32mostly of innocent civilians, including many children.
01:35Until then, a lot of what Trump is doing is just posturing.
01:38But I don't want to discount the fact there are talks going on between the U.S. and Iran.
01:42There are very many positive signs. It very much looks like there could be a deal at hand,
01:47and that would be a wonderful thing.
01:49But recall, though, before we give Trump too much credit for that,
01:52it was him that put all of us in this position to begin with,
01:54because he tore up the Iran nuclear deal in his first term,
01:58which was working at the time until he came along and nixed it,
02:01thereby putting himself in this position now.
02:04Has he shown any signs of wanting to end the Israeli annihilation of the Palestinian people?
02:11I think the answer to that is no, but you would know this better than I.
02:14I fully agree with you.
02:16I mean, like the proof is in the daily massacres that all of us can see
02:19that are continuing every single day.
02:21And look, I hate to give Joe Biden any credit,
02:24but under Biden, at least there was some pressure on Israel to allow in humanitarian aid,
02:29which it wanted to block.
02:30Under Trump, he's let Netanyahu preside over a more than two-month-long siege of Gaza,
02:36blocking all food from getting in.
02:38Gaza is starving, and Trump is doing nothing about it.
02:42He made a few side comments recently about how,
02:46yes, we're going to do something, we're going to take care of it.
02:48He's done absolutely nothing.
02:49So in terms of his actions, so far, full green light to Israeli mass murder.
02:54How offensive to Prime Minister Netanyahu was the American negotiation directly with Hamas
03:06for the release of this young man from New Jersey who was fighting with the IDF?
03:13It was very offensive, and Israeli officials made that known.
03:16The first talks between the U.S. and Hamas began actually in March between the U.S. hostage envoy
03:24and Hamas officials in Doha.
03:30And when Netanyahu got word of this, he dispatched a top aide, Ron Dermer,
03:34to basically sabotage the talks.
03:36And after that hostage envoy, and we've talked with this before on your show, Adam Bowler,
03:40went on CNN and said the U.S. is not the agent of Israel.
03:44We have our own interests.
03:45And actually, he found the Hamas people to be reasonable.
03:49You can't say that on corporate TV.
03:51You can't say that Hamas can be negotiated with and that we're not the agent of Israel.
03:55So he was taken off of that beat.
03:57But Steve Wyckoff picked it up recently, and that's what produced this deal to free
04:02Adon Alexander, which Netanyahu this time was not able to sabotage.
04:06And the reason why Netanyahu wants to sabotage it is because if you start having negotiations
04:10with Hamas, you start having exchanges of captives, that makes peace.
04:16And that removes his pretext to pursue his real goal, which is emptying Gaza of Palestinians,
04:23who he does not want there.
04:24That's his goal.
04:24On top of destroying Gaza, making it unlivable, he also wants to force all the Palestinians
04:29to flee.
04:30He's been on his way there.
04:32I mean, it's so miserable that many people now are, many more than before, are talking
04:36about leaving.
04:37It's pretty obvious, even from speaking to people that I know in Gaza.
04:40But if he's being freed, that's going to interrupt his plans.
04:45So let me get this straight.
04:47The chief negotiator, the chief American negotiator with Hamas was removed from his position.
04:54Because he made a truthful statement on mainstream media that the United States doesn't need Israel's
05:02permission.
05:04He still has the position, but he was removed from the task of talking to Hamas.
05:09They held at least three meetings in Doha, and they were very, very fruitful.
05:14And Hamas actually reduced its demands over the course of those talks because they were
05:19asking for Adam Boller to help facilitate the release of many Palestinian political prisoners
05:25held in Israeli prisons, which Adam Boller said was just not possible.
05:30And he wanted Adon Alexander released because he's American-Israeli.
05:35And so Hamas now, after the latest round of talks, which Israel, again, after Israel killed
05:40the first round of talks, Hamas basically released Adon Alexander without getting anything
05:45that at least we can see publicly in return.
05:47There's no concessions that we can see from Trump that he made to Hamas.
05:51So Hamas is taking a gamble here that engaging in talks, committing an act of good faith by
05:56releasing Adon Alexander will yield results on Trump's end.
06:01Will the United States be able to negotiate directly with Hamas for a ceasefire?
06:08Well, they can if they want to, because if there's one thing we've learned from this
06:12year and a half long genocide is that the moment the U.S. actually uses its leverage, Israel
06:18has to comply.
06:20So, for example, after Trump got elected, he didn't want to have the distraction of this
06:26mass murder campaign going on around his inauguration.
06:30And also, he had threatened Hamas with more retaliation and there'll be hell to pay.
06:35And he didn't want to have to fall through on that so quickly into his time in office.
06:37So what did he do?
06:39Through Steve Wyckoff, he told Netanyahu there has to be a ceasefire.
06:42And Netanyahu totally fell in line.
06:44That's just one illustration of the extensive leverage that the U.S. has.
06:48So, yes, if the U.S. was serious about a ceasefire, if they negotiated one with Hamas,
06:52I absolutely believe that Trump could compel Netanyahu to fall in line and actually obey
06:58whatever the U.S. brokers with Hamas.
07:00In the negotiations with Hamas, did Hamas actually make some extraordinary offers like
07:06laying down arms or a ceasefire for five or ten years?
07:12I'm very glad you raised that, because this is exactly why Netanyahu wanted to sabotage
07:17the talks.
07:18It wasn't just because of the immediate prospect of freeing all the captives and therefore removing
07:23his pretext to bombard Gaza.
07:26But also, Hamas talked about a long-term truce.
07:28They talked about a five- to ten-year truce in which Hamas lays down their arms, which
07:33they've offered before, by the way.
07:34And this is a history that's completely vetoed from U.S. establishment media.
07:38You aren't allowed to know that Hamas has made overtures along these lines before.
07:42Hamas has basically accepted a massive Palestinian compromise of accepting just 22% of their
07:48stolen homeland, a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.
07:53Top Hamas leaders have accepted that.
07:55It's only Israel that has refused that with U.S. support.
07:58And so, yes, Adam Bowler was told by Hamas that we would be open to a five- to ten-year
08:03truce.
08:03And it's obvious what Hamas is doing there.
08:05They're laying that down because they actually want to negotiate a lasting peace, a lasting
08:12resolution to all of this.
08:14So start with a five- to ten-year truce, and then you move towards a permanent settlement.
08:18And for them, that means a major Palestinian compromise of just 22% of their historic homeland,
08:24the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem.
08:26Top Hamas leaders have said that.
08:27It's only because Israel is so hell-bent on hegemony, supremacy, that they refuse to even
08:34accept a Palestinian compromise, a Palestinian surrender, because for Palestinians, 22% of
08:40their homeland is saying, Israel has stolen the rest of it, and we're not going to lay
08:44claim to that.
08:45That's very, very painful for Palestinians, especially now.
08:48But still, you have Hamas making concessions that Israel will never, ever, ever make, because
08:52they're driven by supremacy, not security.
08:54What are the optics of the President of the United States embracing a Brooks Brothers-clad
09:04former Al-Qaeda commander known to slaughter Alawites, Christians, and babies?
09:11So you're referring to a Trump meeting with the new President of Syria?
09:16I am.
09:17I'm in al-Tawani.
09:19And yeah, that was quite extraordinary.
09:22And this is a former leader of Al-Qaeda in Syria, the founder of Al-Qaeda in Syria, a
09:28former deputy leader of ISIS, reporting to the former caliph of ISIS, al-Baghdadi, who
09:34Trump brags constantly about defeating.
09:37So Trump talks about ISIS being an enemy, and I helped defeat them.
09:41But now here he is giving a warm handshake to a former deputy leader of ISIS, al-Jelani.
09:47It's quite striking.
09:49And he also announced that he would be lifting sanctions on Syria, which are very, very sadistic.
09:55And he called them actually brutal and crippling sanctions, which is accurate.
10:01And no one...
10:02Do you think he even told Netanyahu before he made that announcement?
10:06I can't imagine that Netanyahu was pleased with that.
10:09No, I don't think so.
10:10But you know what?
10:11I should finish the thought about Jelani.
10:12So the fact that Trump shakes his hand, calls him an attractive young man, he said he has
10:19a strong past, by which he meant Jelani's past leading al-Qaeda in Syria.
10:23It just speaks to how U.S. hegemony works, where if you are on the other side of U.S.
10:30adversaries, in the case of Syria, that was Assad.
10:32The U.S. was trying to overthrow Assad because he was a part of the acts of resistance, which
10:36deters Israeli hegemony.
10:38That's why he was marked for regime change a very, very long time ago by the Bush administration,
10:43which the Obama administration then picked up and put on steroids with timber sycamore,
10:47the CIA dirty war, billions of dollars spent on weapons, funding, and arming the al-Qaeda
10:52dominated insurgency.
10:53So if you, as long as you, it doesn't matter if you're al-Qaeda, if you're ISIS, if you
10:58stand against U.S. adversaries, as was the case with Assad, then all was forgiven, all
11:04was forgotten.
11:05And which means the former leader of al-Qaeda and ISIS can get a sit down with the president
11:10of the United States and a handshake and Trump can sing his praises.
11:13Even though Trump has long recognized the realities of the dirty war in Syria.
11:17He called it out in his first run for president.
11:19He noted that we were arming al-Qaeda.
11:21He said that was wrong.
11:22But this is what happens in Washington.
11:24You get in and Washington was committed to regime change and so committed that even the
11:29former leader of al-Qaeda gets a friendly sit down with the president of the United States.
11:33Now talk to us about the effect of and the background on the announcement of the removal
11:42of these very crippling sanctions on Syria.
11:46Right.
11:47So Trump accurately called these sanctions brutal and crippling, which they were.
11:53And it's welcome news that they're being lifted, I think, because these sanctions target
11:56the Syrian people.
11:57But it raises the obvious question.
11:59Why were these sanctions ever imposed and what right do we have to impose them?
12:03Did anybody in Syria vote for bureaucrats in Washington to craft really sophisticated,
12:09complex sanctions that cut them off from the world economy, from the banking system that
12:13raised the prices of food, all the basics people need to live in Syria and prevent them
12:19from rebuilding?
12:20No.
12:20But yet this was the goal of the U.S. to make life for the Syrian people so miserable that
12:25the country would basically submit to U.S. dictates, which means overthrowing Assad.
12:30And that's what happened after a decade long dirty war with the U.S. and their allies spent
12:34billions of dollars arming that arming an insurgency that Joe Biden admitted was dominated
12:40by al Qaeda and ISIS.
12:41And after also stealing Syria's oil and wheat via the U.S. military occupation in Syria's
12:47northeast and also imposing these crippling sanctions that prevented Syria from rebuilding
12:52that raised the prices of all the basic commodities.
12:56When I went to Syria a few years ago, people were lining up in long, long queues for fuel
13:01because there was none, because Syria wasn't allowed to import it.
13:05And the price was so high.
13:06And when Iran tried to send in fuel tankers, Israel would bomb them.
13:11So basically, Syria was under siege.
13:13So why was this country ever under siege to begin with?
13:15Because they were marked for regime change.
13:18And let me quote you someone.
13:19This is Sarah Jacobs.
13:20She's a Democratic member of Congress on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
13:24This is what she said about Trump's announcement lifting the sanctions.
13:26She said,
13:27With the fall of the Assad regime last year, the U.S. posture should change and shouldn't
13:33continue to punish the Syrian people.
13:36We shouldn't continue to punish the Syrian people.
13:39So what she's saying is she's right.
13:41Well, she's right that we shouldn't continue to punish them.
13:43But the question is, why should we have punished them to begin with in the first place?
13:47Right.
13:47Why is it legitimate to punish civilians?
13:50Because you want to overthrow their government.
13:51It's pure sadism.
13:52We wouldn't accept someone else doing that to the U.S.
13:55You know, for all the fault that Trump has and all the opposition there might be to him
13:59in the U.S., no Democrat would support crippling sanctions on the American people to help overthrow
14:04Trump.
14:05So what right do we have to go and destroy someone else's economy for the sake of overthrowing
14:09the government?
14:10They don't care about morality.
14:12To them, it's might makes right.
14:13But here is Trump two days ago announcing the lifting of the sanctions on Syria.
14:20Chris, cut number nine.
14:21After discussing the situation in Syria with the crown prince, your crown prince.
14:32And also with President Erdogan of Turkey, who called me the other day and asked for a
14:39very similar thing, among others and friends of mine, people that I have a lot of respect
14:44for in the Middle East, I will be ordering the cessation of sanctions against Syria in order
14:50to give them a chance at greatness.
14:54Oh, what I do for the crown prince.
14:56The sanctions were brutal and crippling and served as an important, really an important
15:05function, nevertheless, at the time.
15:07But now it's their time to shine.
15:09It's their time to shine.
15:10We're taking them all off and they're going to have, I think they're going to have based
15:16on the people and the spirit and everything else that I'm hearing about.
15:18So I say, good luck, Syria.
15:20Show us something very special like they've done, frankly, in Saudi Arabia.
15:26OK, they're going to show us something special.
15:28Very good people.
15:29He still loves to meander and flatter.
15:34Why would Netanyahu and Dermar and why would the Israeli government be opposed to lifting
15:40the sanctions?
15:42Do they want to do they have their eyes on Damascus?
15:46Well, some some people in the Israeli government do have their eyes on Damascus.
15:49I don't know about Netanyahu, but yes, there are some people so extreme in an already extremist
15:53fanatic government that, yes, they consider Syria part of greater Israel and they do have
15:58the signs.
15:59But why Israel would want the sanctions is that, well, they would love to see Syria in
16:04perpetual conflicts and perpetual misery, which is why they supported the dirty war.
16:09They love the fact that you had Arabs fighting each other and tied up inside Syria.
16:14The fact that the Syria dirty war split different sides of the Palestinian cause.
16:18So even inside Hamas, there were splits over Syria.
16:21Israel loved that because what better what better gift to Israel is rather than have their region
16:25united and deterring Israeli hegemony.
16:29You have the region, some countries in the region, including Saudi Arabia, arming sectarian
16:34death squads in Syria, fighting the government and therefore taking out a major plank in the
16:39acts of resistance.
16:39That's what Syria was.
16:40Syria wasn't directly fighting Israel, but Syria under Assad was supplying weapons to helping
16:46to supply weapons to Hezbollah.
16:47And that was a huge, huge problem for Israel.
16:51That's why the Bush administration got on board with regime change in Damascus after the
16:56July 2006 war, when Syria played a major role in helping Hezbollah push back an Israeli invasion.
17:02That's why they had to go.
17:03So Netanyahu would love to see the sanctions on Syria just to keep it weak and divided.
17:08And that's why they're pushing for that.
17:12And again, the problems in Syria, this just shows just like the cynical strategy of basically
17:23making a country suffer into submission.
17:25It works.
17:26It works.
17:27People in Syria, of course, are going to welcome this relief now.
17:30And they'll be able, I mean, if this actually happens, Congress still has to pass some measures
17:34to lift all the sanctions, but Trump can do some stuff on his own.
17:37But it just shows that the U.S. strategy around the world is to, you know, and they've done
17:41this in Central America as well.
17:42They did this in Nicaragua.
17:43You make a country suffer so much, people get sick and tired of resisting and they give
17:47up and the state finally collapses.
17:49And so, yes, it's welcome that these sanctions are being lifted to Syrian people, but they
17:53never should have been imposed to begin with.
17:56You're in Turkey.
17:59Also in Turkey is Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov and United States Secretary of State.
18:07Marco Rubio, guess who else is in Turkey with Marco Rubio?
18:14Chris, can you put this picture up?
18:16Hang on to your most recent meal.
18:20Senator Lindsey Graham.
18:22What on earth is he doing there?
18:26This is neocon central all over again.
18:29There's Secretary Rubio, Senator Graham, and the Ukrainian Foreign Minister.
18:35You can see Senator Graham beaming from ear to ear.
18:39I wonder what he said that has him so happy.
18:43What the hell is Lindsey Graham doing there?
18:47Lindsey Graham is the senator who infamously visited Ukraine right before Trump was inaugurated
18:53in early 2016.
18:55And he said, along with John McCain, their message was, your fight is our fight, and Russia
19:01is going to pay a very, very heavy price.
19:03And what they were saying was, Ukraine's our proxy war, and we're going to keep using you
19:06to fight Russia.
19:07And that's the project he's on board with throughout, including since Russia invaded, largely because
19:14of the policies that Lindsey Graham helped promote.
19:17So I suspect, if I'm guessing, he's a symbol of these peace talks, and this is news to
19:22me, so I'm just reacting now.
19:24He's there because he wants to make sure that his project of using Ukraine as a NATO proxy
19:30against Russia is not impeded, that the U.S. is not going to go too far in his mind to
19:35meet Russian demand.
19:36So I think he's keeping a very watchful eye over his fellow neocon, Marco Rubio.
19:41Here he is, in December 2016, Senator Lindsey Graham and the late Senator John McCain.
19:49Cut number three.
19:50Your fight is our fight.
19:52Your fight is our fight.
19:542017 will be the year of offense.
19:572016 will be the year of offense.
20:00All of us will go back to Washington, and we will push the case against Russia.
20:06Enough of a Russian aggression.
20:17It is time for them to pay a heavier price.
20:23I believe you will win.
20:25I am convinced you will win, and we will do everything we can to provide you with what
20:31you need to win.
20:32So he really hasn't changed at all.
20:41Here he is in May of 2023 with that infamous best money we ever spent.
20:50This is gut-wrenching, but we'll watch it.
20:52Cut number four.
20:53Big, big support.
20:55Very important.
20:56The best money we've ever spent.
20:58Thank you so much.
20:59No, it's, you know, we're on four, let's see, this is 457th day of a war that was supposed
21:07to last three days.
21:08Yeah.
21:10You amaze me.
21:11Your country amazes me.
21:13It's about all our people.
21:15And about your people.
21:16Your people have, how power people, all our appreciations.
21:21You just, you remind me of our better selves in America, that there was a time in America
21:27that we were this way, fighting to the last person.
21:33We're going to be free or die.
21:36Free or die.
21:37Free or die.
21:38Now we are free.
21:40Yes.
21:40And we will be.
21:41And the Russians are dying.
21:42She recognized the voice, the person to whom he was speaking, Ukrainian President Zelensky,
21:50who was the president of Ukraine at the time, but isn't any longer.
21:55What could possibly come from Rubio and Lavrov?
21:59What could possibly come from this?
22:04Just one comment on Lindsey Graham in that first clip you played, where he says 2017 will
22:08be the year of offense.
22:09Is he a Ukrainian commander?
22:13He's representing the people of South Carolina.
22:15Those are his constituents.
22:16But he's speaking as if he's a commander of Ukrainian forces.
22:19Who is he to tell the Ukrainians 2017 will be the year of offense?
22:22Well, he's someone who's heavily involved in a proxy war that has gotten a whole lot worse
22:26because of the policies he promoted.
22:28So he promised 2017 being the year of offense.
22:31Well, 2022 became the year of Russia's offense.
22:34And because of people like Lindsey Graham, a lot of Ukrainians and Russians have died.
22:38I mean, it's not solely the fault of the U.S. and Ukraine.
22:41I mean, it was Russia's choice to invade.
22:43But that just speaks to the mentality inside Washington, where they have the right to tell
22:48a foreign country that next year will be the year of offense.
22:51You're going to fight on our behalf.
22:53Your fight is our fight.
22:55What could come out of Rubio and Lavrov?
22:57Well, look, it depends on Zelensky.
23:00Zelensky pulled this stunt where he said that, you know, I'm going to go to Istanbul and I challenge
23:05Putin to show up.
23:06And then he said that if Putin doesn't show up, then that shows the Russians aren't serious
23:10about peace talks, as if only Vladimir Putin can negotiate peace with Ukraine.
23:15And we know that that's not true because actually Putin's aides negotiated a very extensive
23:20peace treaty with Ukraine three years ago, this month in Istanbul, which Zelensky walked
23:27away from.
23:27And Zelensky since then has signed a decree ruling out peace talks with Putin.
23:31So on the one hand, he says, I can only reach peace talks with Putin while also putting
23:36his name on a decree that says, I cannot discuss peace talks with Putin.
23:40So it's completely nonsensical.
23:42It was a stunt.
23:43He knew Putin wouldn't show up and he doesn't want to actually the talks to continue with
23:47lower level Russian officials, including the foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, who has
23:52a fair amount of authority and certainly expertise in these matters.
23:55So Zelensky is just showing himself again to be an actor.
24:00I mean, that's what he originally was.
24:01And that's what he's continuing to do while serving as president.
24:05Aaron Maté, thank you, my dear friend.
24:07I know it's late in the day or maybe even tomorrow where you are, but very much appreciate
24:13it.
24:14Thanks for accommodating my schedule.
24:15Safe travels.
24:16And we'll look forward to seeing you next week.
24:19Thanks, Josh.
24:20And coming up tomorrow, Friday, today's Thursday.
24:24Tomorrow's Friday at four in the afternoon, the Intelligence Community Roundtable.
24:29Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.