- 11 months ago
Massimo Faggioli, professor of theology at Villanova University, spoke to Forbes senior editor Maggie McGrath about the selection of Cardinal Robert Prevost as Pope and what it could mean for global politics to have a pontiff that was born in the United States.
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00:00Hi, everyone. I'm Maggie McGrath, senior editor at Forbes. The Catholic Church has chosen a new
00:09pope, and he is an American for the first time in history. Pope Leo XIV gave his first mass
00:18over the weekend, and joining us to discuss his early days as pontiff is Massimo Fagioli. He is
00:25a professor of theology at Villanova University, which incidentally is the alma mater of the new
00:31pope. Massimo, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. I want to start with the Villanova
00:37piece. How significant is that to you and to the university that you represent? Were you
00:42expecting a Villanova alum to be named pope? Well, it was not expected. It was a dream,
00:49for sure. He was very popular here even before becoming Cardinal, and so many Agostinians, I mean,
00:59all Agostinians on campus know him well. This means a lot for the whole university in general,
01:07for American Catholic universities, because he studied also at CTU in Chicago. It means something
01:15very special for me, for us in our department of theology, because we are called to, I mean,
01:23to hold a certain kind of standard in some sense, so that will attract more attention, I think. So
01:33last week was a week of celebration. After his election, it was bells ringing for hours. So it's a
01:42new page, I think, for the university and for the Agostinians, especially who govern our university.
01:50You mentioned Agostinian, and for folks who aren't familiar with Catholicism writ large,
01:56can you talk about the significance of this being an Agostinian pope versus Pope Francis, who had been
02:02Jesuit? The Agostinians is an order founded on the charism, on the theology, on the text of St.
02:11St. Agostinian, who's the major thinker for early or ancient Latin-speaking Western Christianity.
02:23And he's foundational for so many issues, for the doctrine of sacraments, of the church,
02:30for doctrine of just war, all of that. So he's a thinker who writes in the, at that crucial time,
02:40of the collapse of the Roman Empire. And Agostinian, who comes from Northern Africa, which was back
02:48then, I mean, part of the Roman Empire, he sees this empire collapse. And his question is, what should
02:55you do now, as Christians, as citizens, as human beings? And so that's why he has become so popular
03:03among some thinkers lately, especially in the Anglo-American world, because they think Agostinian
03:11has a lot to say to the sense of crisis of the Western world. So this is different because
03:18if we compare Augustinian theology with Jesuit theology, so Jesuits are historically much more
03:29attracted by the margins, what Pope Francis called the peripheries, which means geographically much more
03:37attracted by Asia, by non-Christian religions, non-Christian cultures. So they have a more confident
03:49openness to what's new, to what's diverse, to the non-Christian cultures, traditions.
03:57So we will see how these two identities will compare, because we knew a lot about Pope Francis
04:10when he was elected, because he had written several important pieces of writings before becoming Pope.
04:20So we don't have that for Pope Leo. And so there's no paper track or trail that we can follow. And so
04:29every day it's discovery, because there are no notable books or published writings of Robert
04:38Prevost that can help us understand, as a background, him as a thinker.
04:46Oh, that's so interesting. Do you think that was intentional on the part of the conclave,
04:51to pick someone who had less of a paper trail?
04:54I don't think so. So what we have seen in these last few decades, so Pope Francis and John Paul II,
05:05Pope Benedict, Paul VI, so all these popes of these last 60 years, all of them, for some reasons,
05:13they had written a lot before becoming Cardinals and before becoming Pope.
05:20But that was a new thing, because we didn't have necessarily that in the early 20th century,
05:2620th century. So it might be a return to an older tradition where you do not have to be a published
05:36theologian, a published author to be elected Pope. I think the choice of Prevost was very intentional,
05:43but not based on that reason. There's no formal vetting like in the White House when they have to hire
05:54someone. So he was known for some reasons as a cardinal in charge of a very important office in the Vatican,
06:05as a former superior of the Agostinians. So his reputation didn't need to be
06:11on Amazon with some published book.
06:18Not on Amazon, but I do know some folks have been combing through past tweets and social media posts
06:23to try to figure out what has he said about Donald Trump? What has he said about J.D. Vance? What do
06:31you make of this social media analysis? And is it appropriate in this case? Or is there really
06:37nothing we can glean from how he has tweeted in the past? So first of all, it is appropriate
06:43because it's a public forum. So if you publish something, it should be unavailable and it could
06:55be used to know more about you and so on. I mean, one big question for these figures is whether they are
07:04their own social media manager. We don't know that. So he's younger than his predecessors when they
07:13were elected. But I mean, we never had a pope this young in these last 40 years, right? So he,
07:20in some sense, is much closer to what we call now digital natives, right? So it's possible that he was
07:27really saying these things himself or that someone else was tweeting him this on his behalf and agreed
07:38with that or that he might have used a different language. Now, I think that what he published in
07:46those tweets is really his thinking. So he's a social catholic who, on the issue of immigration especially,
07:58is very much representative of what most American bishops think on the responsibility of the government
08:09towards migrants and refugees. There are little differences between so-called conservative bishops
08:18and liberal bishops in the American episcopate on this. So having said that, so I think that when
08:26you are elected pope, there's something that changes. So what you say as a bishop, as a cardinal,
08:35is necessarily different from what you say as a pope. So we shouldn't expect him to repeat
08:45exactly what he said two months ago or 10 years ago. He might, but I mean, being pope entails a certain
08:56kind of responsibilities and gives you a certain freedom to reshape your message. That is part of the
09:06papal office. That has happened before with the previous popes on some issues.
09:12Now, you mentioned that the choice of Pope Leo was intentional for some reasons, not necessarily the
09:19paper trail. What do you think? I know it's impossible to fully know what the conclave was thinking,
09:23but what do you see as their intentions behind this choice specifically? Because I feel like we spoke
09:29in the past about how an American pope felt unlikely given what a global power America is. I think a lot of
09:35people were very surprised by the specific American choice here. But what do you see as the primary
09:40intentions behind this choice? So the primary intention, I think, was to give some continuity to the
09:49overarching message of Pope Francis without tying him to a specific agenda. So this is a college of
09:59cardinals that has been shaped by Pope Francis with a very, very intentional policy of personnel. So that
10:08was the first thing. And I think it was clear also because with this position in the Vatican, he was in
10:16contact with many other cardinals, many other bishops in the world that he was not an American pope,
10:23but a pope born in the United States, who was really profiting from his missionary experience
10:34in Latin America for two decades. And as a former superior of his order, he had a specific knowledge of
10:42the global Catholic Church. So that's something that's typical of the members of the religious orders.
10:51And so I think he was elected mostly thanks to the support of the cardinals from the Americas,
11:02Latin America, but also the United States, and some Spanish, Portuguese speaking bishops in
11:09Europe and in Northern Africa. So what emerged was that he had the perfect profile, the perfect...
11:23So it was not a matter of ideology or of fitting a certain checklist. But in the end, it is a choice on a
11:34person. That's why the vote is secret, because you vote on a person and it's very delicate. But from what we know,
11:47it emerged very quickly that he was the strongest candidate and all possible opponents to him
11:54very quickly realized that they needed to rally behind him. And so that's why we had a very quick
12:02concrete conclave, the fourth ballot, second day. That has been surprising in some sense, but it says how strong
12:14his voice was, apparently also because of the speech he gave the day before the conclave opened, which made
12:25his own impression.
12:28He's made impressions in some of his early masses as Pope. And I'd love for you to share what has struck
12:36you as he has spoken to the public. He had Sunday mass. He also, there are some headlines about him
12:42meeting with journalists, which is not in a mass, but saying that he wants to pull back on divisive
12:48language. What do you make of his leadership in his first few days as pontiff?
12:52It's very early, of course, but so we see that he mentioned explicitly his predecessors, Pope Francis,
13:03John Paul II, Paul VI, explicitly or implicitly. So he's not a pope of rapture, but he understands very well the
13:17need of reassurance to the Catholic world that I'm walking in the footsteps of my predecessors.
13:27He mentioned Vatican II, the great event of the Catholic Church in these last four centuries.
13:35So when Vatican II opened, he was seven years old. So that's really shocking because all of the popes
13:40he was already grown up or even members of the Second Vatican Council, he was seven. He mentioned
13:47synodality. And so the idea of a church that has to be less clerical, that has to find new ways to
13:56discuss and govern. He's crafting his own message with a very good Italian, I can say as an Italian,
14:05uses English rarely. That's wise, I think. He has made already interesting things. So that speech
14:18to the journalist on Monday the 12th was really a defense of the freedom of the press.
14:26He warned against the use of divisive language in the press. And he was talking not just to the
14:38mainstream secular media, but also to Catholic media, I guess, which has fallen often into this
14:45temptation of using divisive language. It seems that he had the first phone call with the president of
14:53Ukraine in a very delicate situation internationally because there seems to be a meeting in the next
15:00few days in Turkey. Well, Pope Leo maybe will travel later in the spring because of the anniversary of
15:11the Council of Nacia of 325. So he's been very active. He has chosen to live in the PayPal apartment again.
15:23He's not doing what Pope Francis decided. It's a return to a tradition. So it's a mix of
15:32of old and new for the first three, four days of his modification.
15:37A mix of old and new. I've seen some analysis around the choice of the name Leo. The theological
15:45history behind it has some really interesting context. I'd love for you to share what you see
15:52as the significance of the choice of Leo and in theologic history, what Leo's relationship to Francis was.
16:00So there are a few important popes named Leo in church history, but especially one is important,
16:10Leo XIII, who had one of the longest pontificates, 25 years, between 1878 and 1903. He's especially
16:20important for American Catholics because he was the pope who published in 1891 the encyclical
16:27Rerum Novarum on the new things, which was addressing the industrial revolution. And so
16:34Pope Leo was rejecting at the same time very clearly socialism, communism, and defending a market economy
16:42and so on. But at the same time, he was warning against the excesses of laissez-faire capitalism.
16:51So he really crafted the first foundations of the modern Catholic social doctrine
16:58vis-a-vis capitalism, the market economy, its impact on life, on the family.
17:05So he chose Leo XIII for that, and he explained that in the speech he gave two days after his election,
17:15saying, we are now seeing a new industrial revolution, and now I'm drawing inspiration from
17:22Pope Leo. And then there's another small thing, which maybe is not that small for him. So Pope Leo XIII
17:29was an active promoter of the Augustinians in his pontificate. And so there's a very strong
17:36relationship between Leo XIII and the Augustinians. And I think it's something that the Prevost knows
17:45very well. And so other people have said it's Pope Leo XIII, it might be Pope Leo XIII who crowned
17:58Charlemagne in Rome in the year 800. Actually, the Pope himself told us it's Leo XIII. So there's no
18:08question about what's most important for him.
18:12He's made his values clear, but there are still a lot of questions. And one of the big questions
18:18that I've seen in some Catholic media, to your point about Catholic media slipping into perhaps
18:23divisive language, but I think it's a fair question. One of the big issues for the church
18:27is the ongoing handling of the abuse scandal. What was Robert Francis Prevost's record as cardinal
18:35in dealing with priests who had been accused of abuse? And what does his election as Pope mean for
18:42how the Vatican writ large will continue to grapple with this issue?
18:46So Prevost was bishop in Peru, which has a specific history of dealing with the abuse crisis. And
18:55against some cases in Peru, there's been a very decisive action by the Vatican. And so I think
19:04Prevost can show that as part of his record because these actions were taken in this last year,
19:14before he was elected Pope. Second, in the Vatican, he was the chief of this office that prepares the
19:21bishop's appointments. And so this is one of the most sensitive tasks because you have to make sure that
19:28that the bishops that are appointed or promoted have a good record on that. I think he gets this because he's an American.
19:38And so some other cultures, some other, I mean, from Italy, for example, so there's less
19:48sensibility to that. I mean, he's coming from the United States. I think it's very, very
19:56fresh for him, this shock. So Pope Francis has done many things. It's always a work in progress. One
20:06open question is what to do with the Pontifical Commission for the protection of minors, which was created by Pope Francis,
20:16but always remained in something like a limbo in the Vatican, right? And so this is something that he might
20:24choose to restructure to put it in a different box in Roman Curia. Culturally, it's the most devastating,
20:40the most damaging thing of these last 40 years in the Catholic Church. And he knows this very well,
20:47well, I think. So, but this is, he's going to be evaluated with a stick, which is different from
20:58his predecessors, I think, because he's younger, and he's from America, from the United States. And so
21:06the standard is a little higher for him, I think.
21:09Yeah, thanks. Well, there's a lot to be seen from Pope Leo XIV. And one of my final questions to you,
21:16I return to where we started, the fact that he is an American pope. People here, Catholic and non-Catholic,
21:23seem very excited. Does this do anything for American Catholicism and the number of people going to church
21:31or spirituality and faithfulness as a whole? Or is this a moment in time and then we'll return to stasis
21:39after? We'll see, because we saw that there was a lot of enthusiasm, for example, for the Polish pope in
21:49Poland. And then that effect didn't last for very long, right? On the other hand, when John Paul II visited
21:59Denver in 1993, 94, I'm not sure now, his impact was lasting in the Denver area, in the U.S. Catholic
22:10Church, right? So I think that Pope Leo will make a big impact on U.S. Catholicism at this time,
22:20especially when it seems that the secularization has slowed down a little so that the United States will
22:31become more secular than it used to be, but not as secular as Europe, for example, right? So he has an
22:37opportunity. He, as an American, he doesn't need translators, interpreters, mediators to talk with
22:45the American bishops or with American politicians. He knows them, he gets them, and he cannot be accused
22:53of being a communist or an anti-American. It was ludicrous, right? And so this is really, it could be
23:01transformative for the Vatican, for a certain culture of management in the Vatican and so on,
23:09but especially for the United States. This is really, I mean, I've seen a lot of excitement
23:15on campus here, in my parish, on the media. It's something that we didn't think was possible
23:24until a few weeks ago, and now it is, and it will be much more difficult for American Catholics to ignore
23:33him, or to dismiss him, or to say, well, he doesn't understand us. It's a very tough sell right now.
23:42I lied. That was my penultimate question. My final question to you is, we had talked a few weeks ago
23:46about the number of global crises that the new pope would walk into, and you referenced the war
23:51between Russia and Ukraine as one of them just a few minutes ago. What is the likelihood that the
23:59appointment of a new pope meaningfully moves the needle on any one of these crises? Does the infusion
24:06of a new leader perhaps change the tenor of the war in Ukraine or any of the humanitarian crises that
24:15we're seeing in Gaza or anywhere else around the world? Do we have more hope for a solution anywhere?
24:21It's possible for two reasons. First, because, especially on Ukraine, that was one of the
24:28most controversial positions taken by Pope Francis. And so it's possible that Pope Leo will adopt a
24:37different language, a different tone. Also because, I mean, Leo is an Agostinian. Agostin has a very
24:48fundamental doctrine on just war which is something on which Francis was not so keen. And the second
24:57thing is that having a pope who is from America, from the United States, at the helm of the Catholic
25:04Church, changes a lot of things in the way the Chinese government will look at the Vatican, the
25:13Russian government will look at the Vatican, the Indian government. So, I mean, having a pope from the
25:19U.S. is really a new set of cards in the same game. Okay, but it is a set of... So, now, the problem is
25:31that there are incredibly high expectations of Pope Leo that he will solve the problems of America, of Europe,
25:41of the environment. That's going to be difficult to address all that. But he is the most energetic
25:52pope we have seen in 40 years. I mean, he's very youthful. He looks very energetic, looks very young.
26:00He reminds us, I mean, incredibly, of the series by Sorrentino as a young pope. I mean, a pope from America.
26:08So, there are two different things. Okay, let me be clear. Okay, but in terms of energy,
26:13of what he's bringing that's new, it reminds me of that series which was prophetic in its own way, maybe.
26:22Massimo Fagioli, professor of theology at Villanova, thank you so much for joining us to
26:27tell us about Pope Leo XIV's earliest days as pontiff and what we can perhaps expect from
26:33him as pope going forward. We so appreciate your time and your insight. Thank you. My pleasure.
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