00:00Hallo und willkommen zu der Europä-Conversation.
00:10Mein Gast dieses Woche ist der Irish-Primminister Antísoch, Michal Martin.
00:14Er spricht mit mir nach dem ersten Gespräch als Prime Minister
00:17mit Ursula von der Leyen, Präsident der Europäische Commission.
00:20Er spricht mit ihr über die Ongoing-Trade-War mit den USA
00:24und was er spricht als Hell on Earth, Gaza.
00:26Michal Martin, Irish-Primminister Antísoch,
00:31thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:34You're very welcome, delighted to be here.
00:36And you met with Ursula von der Leyen,
00:37your first time meeting her since becoming Tísoch.
00:39Can I ask you first of all,
00:41the EU recently announced potential tariffs against the United States
00:45if there's no resolution to the 90-day negotiation period.
00:48Is Ireland supportive of that?
00:50We're members of the European Union
00:52and we appreciate the very measured and strategic approach
00:55that the Commission led by President von der Leyen has taken to date
00:59and we've been supportive of that.
01:01The pathway here has to be one of negotiation
01:03and we welcome the fact that there's been a degree of engagement
01:06between the US Administration and the European Commission
01:09on the fundamental issues pertaining to tariffs
01:12and trade overall between the European Union and the United States.
01:17And remember, of course, apart from goods,
01:20there's a huge services trade between the US and Europe
01:23and Europe's in deficit on services, surplus on goods.
01:27So on the countermeasures,
01:29every member of the state will have issues with some aspects on that.
01:32But that's inevitable.
01:34We don't want to get to a position
01:35where Europe may have to deploy countermeasures.
01:38We, from the outset, don't believe in the imposition of tariffs.
01:42In relation to pharmaceuticals,
01:43which make up around 50% of Ireland's exports to the United States,
01:47I mean, that would have a huge impact on the Irish economy.
01:50We have a strong centre of innovative drugs.
01:52We believe, even within Europe,
01:53we need to create a good window, an IP window,
01:57to enable companies to get their deserved reward
02:00for investment in research and investment in innovation.
02:04So we always have to support innovation.
02:06Now, in terms of any deal,
02:09I think the citizen needs access to medicines.
02:13And again, Europe and America have a lot in common here.
02:17And let's just move on,
02:18because Ireland is taking the presidency of the European Council in 2026,
02:22and part of that will be negotiating the seven-year EU budget.
02:26There is a very strong consensus
02:27that defence and security has to be a key part of that.
02:30Can you see where the trade-offs might be
02:33in relation to the budget?
02:34Will there be a reduction, for example,
02:37on the common agricultural policy?
02:38Can Ireland see where there may be trade-offs?
02:40Well, Ireland is very focused on the common agricultural policy.
02:44We're focused on research
02:45as a key part of our competitiveness agenda within Europe.
02:51I'm a strong believer in research myself
02:52and the benefits that flow from it.
02:55We've just discussed pharmaceutical research
02:57and the important impact that has had on lives and lifespan.
03:00And so I think the fundamental question will be
03:05how much money will be available.
03:09They need to develop some own resources.
03:11And the fact that most people are looking for more expenditure
03:14on different aspects of the budget,
03:15but not as clear on how we produce the revenue
03:19to meet the desired expenditure.
03:23And, of course, we have to deal with next-generation EU,
03:25paying back the loans and so on,
03:27Ireland supported that, even though we're net contributors.
03:29We supported, if you like, the big bazooka approach
03:31to COVID-19 and the collective approach.
03:35Did Ireland support something like common borrowing for defence?
03:38I think on defence, we accept the inevitability
03:41that in terms of the multi-financial framework,
03:44there will be member states who will want
03:45some portion of that to be allocated to defence needs.
03:50Ireland has no interest in getting in the way
03:52of other countries in terms of their necessities,
03:57their existential sense of having to protect themselves,
04:01given the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
04:03That has changed the entire security paradigm in Europe.
04:09Ireland itself understands we have vulnerabilities
04:12on cyber security, on subsea cable,
04:16and protecting those.
04:17And that's why we're involved in a lot of PESCO projects,
04:19or quite a number of PESCO projects on that,
04:21and why we've negotiated an individually tailored programme
04:25with NATO on the Partnership for Peace
04:26on those themes of cyber security
04:29and subsea cables as well.
04:31And are you concerned about the threat of democracy
04:33in Europe at the moment,
04:34when you see the growth of quite hard right parties,
04:38whether it's Germany,
04:40all across Europe at the moment,
04:41and also you see certain aspects of it
04:44within the White House administration
04:46when it comes to freedom of expression due process?
04:49Well, I'm very worried about the coarseness of language
04:52in public discourse at the moment,
04:55no matter where you go.
04:56Even in Ireland, and social media has facilitated this,
05:01this kind of sharp soundbite of hate,
05:04of dismissing everybody if you don't agree with their view,
05:07of labelling people and putting people into pigeonholes.
05:10The capacity to have debate, as we're having now,
05:14is fast slipping away from the public realm a bit,
05:18and that worries me.
05:19Are you concerned about it in the United States, though,
05:22or even in Europe?
05:23And even if you look in places like Hungary,
05:25the reduction of rights for LGBT communities?
05:27Well, we are very concerned about that in Hungary
05:28in terms of the undermining of the LGBTI community,
05:33the banning of pride parades.
05:36These are very fundamental issues
05:37that Europe has to engage with, the European Union.
05:40And there's a tendency,
05:41I look at some of the rhetoric that's emanating
05:43from the Hungarian government towards Europe.
05:45I mean, we'll conquer Europe, or we'll take them over,
05:48or we'll have a common something.
05:50So all that stuff is, I think,
05:53is inflaming public opinion in a very negative way.
05:56I mean, most European citizens like the fact
05:59that they're part of the European Union.
06:00I said in a speech recently, you know,
06:02in the European Union, you know,
06:03we have all of that freedom of speech,
06:07we have regulated markets,
06:09we have good standards in food and across the board,
06:13we have stability.
06:14Who wouldn't want to live in an environment like that?
06:18Do you think that you should do more in relation to this?
06:21Yes, and I think also we should do more
06:23to provide a positive narrative
06:25of what being a member of the European Union means.
06:27Would you like to see maybe Article 7 or other responses?
06:30I think there are many instruments we have.
06:32Article 7 is one.
06:34I think we should pursue all instruments.
06:36I think, you know,
06:38we've always accepted unanimity on certain aspects.
06:42we think it's been abused.
06:45And I believe the European Union
06:47will not become workable
06:48if that abuse continues.
06:51And I think there's only so much
06:52member states can take
06:53in terms of willful abuse of the veto.
06:57We've seen it play out in Ukraine.
07:00And so there are a number of instruments
07:03that we can use
07:03and we shouldn't be afraid to use them.
07:05In Ukraine,
07:05Ireland is obviously very supportive
07:07of enlargement
07:07and Ukraine becoming an EU member state.
07:10Do you think that's going to be possible
07:11seeing as that
07:12it's all blocked at the moment?
07:13It's outrageous
07:14what's going on at the moment.
07:15In my view,
07:16it's essential
07:17that Ukraine becomes a member
07:18of the European Union
07:19for geopolitical reasons.
07:21And I think Europe
07:22probably missed opportunities
07:25over the last decade or two
07:26in terms of the Western Balkans as well.
07:29And I'd like to see,
07:30you know,
07:30Montenegro and Macedonia
07:32and other states
07:33in the Western Baltics
07:34in due course
07:34become members also.
07:35and I've been an advocate
07:37of this for quite some time.
07:40But it seems
07:41that people are exploiting
07:44the mechanisms of the veto
07:45and so on.
07:45As in Viktor Orl in Hungary.
07:47Yeah, unreasonably in my view.
07:49Unreasonably.
07:50Europe has made a lot of attempts
07:51to try and unblock these issues
07:54to inmediation and engagement.
07:57And likewise,
07:58you know,
07:58in terms of the EPF,
07:59the European Peace
08:00Society as well
08:02has slowed down
08:07Ireland's contribution
08:07to Ukraine.
08:08We contributed
08:09non-lethal finance to that,
08:11hasn't been able
08:12to be utilised
08:12and so on.
08:14Now we're doing it bilaterally.
08:16One area that you have
08:17been at odds
08:17with the EU consensus
08:19is in relation
08:19to Israel and Gaza.
08:22And earlier,
08:23before,
08:23you've criticised Israel
08:25for committing war crimes,
08:27be it starvation
08:27and so on.
08:30Tell us about your engagement
08:31with Ursula von der Leyen
08:32in relation to that.
08:33It's quite shocking
08:34what is now happening
08:36within Gaza
08:37to have an effective blockade
08:39for 50 days and more,
08:4160 days maybe now,
08:42in terms of food,
08:44in terms of the essentials
08:45of life,
08:46the bare necessities of life.
08:48In my view,
08:49must be considered
08:49a war crime.
08:52And I don't say that easily.
08:54I want the resolution.
08:55We want the restoration
08:57of the ceasefire.
08:58We want the release
08:58of all hostages.
08:59In my view,
09:00it was shocking
09:00to take people as hostages.
09:02These were innocent people
09:03at a concert
09:04in their kibbutz.
09:06I went to kibbutz
09:06myself to see it firsthand
09:08the impact
09:10of the horrific
09:11Hamas attack
09:12on Israel.
09:14And that was shocking
09:15and horrible.
09:17And I've condemned it
09:18from the outset
09:18and I went there
09:19to show empathy
09:20with the people
09:20who had been attacked.
09:22So all those,
09:22I mean,
09:23the hostages should have
09:23been released
09:24a long time ago.
09:24But the war
09:27that has been waged
09:28in response,
09:30in my view,
09:30has lost any moral compass
09:32at this stage
09:32in terms of its
09:34unacceptable impact
09:35on the civilian population
09:37and on children.
09:38And in Ireland,
09:39there's real
09:40desperate sadness now
09:42and horror
09:43and a sense
09:43of helplessness
09:44at what we see
09:46in our TV screens
09:47of young children
09:48on stretchers
09:49in hospitals,
09:50very badly injured,
09:52many families
09:53being wiped out,
09:56kids being orphaned.
09:57From a humanity
09:58point of view,
09:59it's beyond comprehension.
10:01And what's happening now
10:02in terms of a doubling down
10:04by Israel
10:04in terms of occupation
10:05and intensification
10:06of the war on the ground,
10:08they've bombed hospitals.
10:10And I know
10:10Israel will say,
10:11well,
10:11Hamas are in the hospitals
10:12and so forth.
10:14Kids need a basic access
10:15to medicine.
10:17Many externally funded hospitals
10:19from international organizations
10:21or indeed from other countries
10:22have been bombed.
10:25Life has been,
10:25I mean,
10:26humanitarian workers
10:27have been murdered
10:27in terms of Red Crescent
10:30and so on
10:31that we saw recently.
10:33And I think
10:34the weaponization
10:35of the very basic necessities
10:37of life,
10:38from my perspective,
10:40is a breach
10:41of humanitarian law.
10:42And I think
10:42that raises
10:42very significant issues
10:43for us then
10:44for Europe
10:44in terms of the
10:46EU-Israel Association Agreement
10:49and the human rights clauses
10:50that are part of that.
10:53And so there has to be
10:54a discussion of that now.
10:56But when we look back
10:56at this moment,
10:58obviously the EU
10:59being a union
11:00of international law,
11:02what will you say
11:03people will say
11:04about Europe's response?
11:05That is my core point.
11:06I think this is fundamental
11:07to Europe
11:07and to the European Union
11:08and what we stand for.
11:10And, you know,
11:11we have communicated
11:12to other countries
11:13around the world
11:13in terms of Ukraine
11:14and the violation
11:17of its territorial integrity.
11:18A different war
11:19and the situation
11:21in the Middle East,
11:22I accept fully
11:23the complexities
11:23and all of that.
11:25But it's the
11:26unacceptable level
11:27of death
11:28and destruction
11:29and displacement.
11:32And it is,
11:34many people have said
11:34that going back
11:35to 2011,
11:36it's hell on earth.
11:37and it really poses
11:39the most fundamental
11:40of questions
11:41to the European Union
11:42in terms of our values
11:44and what we're prepared
11:46to stand up for.
11:47Okay, Micheál Martin,
11:49Prime Minister of Ireland
11:50and Taoiseach,
11:50thank you very much
11:51for joining us
11:51on the Europe Conversation.
11:53You're very welcome indeed.
11:54Thank you.
11:54Thank you.
11:56Thank you.
11:57Thank you.
11:57Thank you.
12:02forág mi
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