00:00Hi there, my name is Rachel A. Marine. I'm a political correspondent at The Scotsman.
00:03I'm here outside the Scottish Parliament where it's a very big day. We're getting the stage
00:06one debate on assisted dying. Now should this bill pass at the stage one, it means it goes
00:11on to further scrutiny and further votes down the line. But plenty of protests today for
00:16both sides of the argument. I've been speaking to Liz Carr, an actress who is wanting people
00:22to vote against the bill, and to Dr. Amanda Ward as well, who's a legal advisor for the
00:26bill, is wanting to encourage people to vote for the bill. Let's see what they have to say.
00:30I'm joined today with Liz Carr, actress and campaigner against assisted dying bill. Do you want us to explain why it is you come here today?
00:38I can't get enough of these debates and these protests. So obviously I'm very involved at Westminster
00:46in the possible Kim Leadbeater assisted suicide bill. But I'm very aware of the Liam McArthur bill
00:53and I am fearful of it passing further, of it getting a yes vote today, because I do not
01:02believe that we can safely legislate to allow doctors to assist some people to end their lives.
01:09Well, Liam McArthur, the MSP behind the bill, he says there are safeguards in place that he has
01:14put in provisions into the bill to make sure that doesn't happen. So what would you say to that?
01:19Well, so for example, a safeguard is two doctors. But you know, if your doctor doesn't support you, if your
01:26own GP doesn't, you go and find doctors that are very pro-assisted suicide. That's what's happened in
01:32the jurisdictions like Oregon and in Australia, the ones that were, you know, aligning ourselves with
01:39with a bill like this. So the safeguards in many respects are just checklists. And what we find in the
01:45countries where they've been passed, these laws have been passed, is those safeguards lessen and
01:50lessen. Because, arguably, people say they get in the way of people's autonomy. So safeguards usually
01:57are there to get the bill passed. But once the bill's passed, they reduce and they're lessened.
02:03So we've tried to tally up how many MSPs are for and against. There's a lot in the recent days
02:08have said that they're going to be against the bill. There's so many undecided still. What would you
02:11say to the ones who are still undecided? I've been inside Parliament today talking to quite a lot
02:16of MSPs. And, you know, they have an enviable job because, but they're being really thoughtful.
02:24I've spoken to some incredible MSPs who are really, really torn. So I don't think it's a foregone
02:30conclusion either way. I think MSPs are really giving this, they've had, you know, their mailboxes
02:37have been absolutely inundated with strong arguments on both sides. And I think, you know,
02:44I think they want to be hugely fair. I would say to them, if you are not sure, do not risk it.
02:51Because once these bills are passed, there is no going back. And is this the right bill? No.
02:57And is this the right time? Is this a safe time? Are we providing strong end of life care
03:02for all people who are dying? No, we're not. So let's not allow assisted suicide for a small
03:08group of people, arguably, because it's not safe to do that and change the relationship
03:13with patients and doctors. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.
03:18Hi. I'm now joined by Dr. Amanda Ward, who is the legal advisor on Liam MacArthur's bill here.
03:22And thank you for joining us at The Scotsman here today. And can you explain the work that's gone into
03:27this? Because it feels like the team behind this bill have been working on this for years now.
03:32Sure. So I worked with Margo MacDonald and Patrick Harvey on previous iterations.
03:38So for the last 13 years, I've been researching this bill, including doing a PhD on Scots law and
03:44assisted dying. I've travelled all over the world internationally, working with legislators
03:49in permissive jurisdictions. So this is an evidence-based bill. We now have data that we didn't
03:55have 10 years ago. And that data is from permissive jurisdictions and it's government data, peer
04:01reviewed data and independent panel information that we have drawn upon to make sure that we have
04:08the best bill for Scotland, to make sure that we have a bill that fits constitutionally, legally,
04:14culturally and societally with the people of Scotland and the culture and the change that Scots have so
04:21desperately told us they want to see. So why do you think it's going to pass this
04:25time when it hasn't managed to do so in the past two times?
04:28The last bill that the Scottish Parliament considers was 10 years ago. And since then,
04:33we've seen a domino effect internationally of jurisdictions that have passed it. And we know
04:38that it can be done safely, effectively and responsibly. We also have a new intake of MSPs in
04:43session six who are much more amenable to the option of assisted dying. And I think just people
04:48sharing their personal stories as the campaign has gained momentum has really hammered home to members of
04:54Parliament that this is long overdue.
04:58And when it comes to the debate today, people who are against the bill, they're worried that
05:03there's not enough safeguards in place, it's going to slip through slope. I'm sure you're going to tell
05:07me that that's not going to be the case?
05:09Well, what we've done is we've built in protections so that we have a law that isn't available
05:13to everyone, that we have a very safeguarded permissive assisted dying law. So we've built in protections
05:20around coercion and we've built in really strong capacity assessments. There has to be at least two
05:25doctors who independently assess the patient. So this is the most safeguarded bill that Scotland
05:31has ever seen. So what we've tried to do is meet in the middle and find the commonalities and those
05:37start with everyone wanting and getting on board with the fact that everyone wants a good death and
05:43we all believe in compassion and the reduction of suffering and then working out there. So we've
05:48listened to stakeholders from everyone, from the chief medical officer to the churches,
05:53to disabled people and chairman of the ill people who want this choice to build a bill for Scotland
05:58that shadows that very fine line.
06:01It's the culmination of a long four years of hard work. It's exciting, it's nerve-wracking. I'm confident
06:09that the majority of my MSP colleagues recognise the need for reform or at the very least the need for
06:17parliament to be given more time to look into the detail of my bill and consider amendments before
06:23finally deciding whether or not to back the proposals. So we'll see where things get to this
06:29evening but I'm hopeful that we'll take a significant step forward in putting in place a long overdue reform.
06:37Everything gets up to colleagues how they engage with this issue and whether they
06:42want to make public their views or want to continue right up to the last minute to reflect on what
06:51they're hearing from constituents, from stakeholder groups and elsewhere. I think with the situation
06:57with all three that you mentioned, they've been long-standing opponents of our change in the law.
07:03In the case of John Swinney, I think he was on record as saying he feels a lot more conflicted,
07:09a lot more uncertain than he did on previous occasions. So he's been on a journey but I was
07:15never really expecting him or Nicola Sturgeon or Kate Forbes to back it. I think importantly there are
07:22many many colleagues who come to this with their own personal experience, have listened to the personal
07:26stories of constituents and recognise that as I say the ban on assisted dying in Scotland, I was failing
07:33too many dying Scots and their families at the end of life and that reform is urgently needed.
07:39This is an issue that's not going away and these stories that we've heard loudly and clearly
07:45throughout this debate are only going to be more common, more frequent. The demand for a change in
07:51the law is only going to intensify. Well we get into the detail and I think that's an argument I've
07:55been making very strongly to colleagues that whether or not you still have concerns about aspects of the
08:01bill. We need to be able to get into the detail to consider amendments first in committee and then
08:06in the full chamber in parliament. So that will take place later on this year. I suspect the committee
08:13will not return to the stage two until after the summer recess but there's an awful lot of hard work
08:18still to be done. First up though we need to get the general principles backed. I'm keeping
08:22everything crossed but I'm hopeful that will happen later on this evening.
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