Silent Witness actress Liz Carr and Liam McArthur MSP share their thoughts on the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill ahead of the stage one vote at the Scottish Parliament. Liz Carr is against the bill, and Liam McArthur is the MSP who introduced the bill.
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00:00Hi there, my name is Rachel A. Marine. I'm a political correspondent at The Scotsman.
00:03I'm here outside the Scottish Parliament where it's a very big day. We're getting the stage
00:06one debate on assisted dying. Now should this bill pass at the stage one, it means it goes
00:11on to further scrutiny and further votes down the line. But plenty of protests today for
00:16both sides of the argument. I've been speaking to Liz Carr, an actress who is wanting people
00:22to vote against the bill, and to Dr. Amanda Ward as well, who's a legal advisor for the
00:26bill, is wanting to encourage people to vote for the bill. Let's see what they have to say.
00:30I'm joined today with Liz Carr, actress and campaigner against assisted dying bill. Do you want us to explain why it is you come here today?
00:38I can't get enough of these debates and these protests. So obviously I'm very involved at Westminster
00:46in the possible Kim Leadbeater assisted suicide bill. But I'm very aware of the Liam McArthur bill
00:53and I am fearful of it passing further, of it getting a yes vote today, because I do not
01:02believe that we can safely legislate to allow doctors to assist some people to end their lives.
01:09Well, Liam McArthur, the MSP behind the bill, he says there are safeguards in place that he has
01:14put in provisions into the bill to make sure that doesn't happen. So what would you say to that?
01:19Well, so for example, a safeguard is two doctors. But you know, if your doctor doesn't support you, if your
01:26own GP doesn't, you go and find doctors that are very pro-assisted suicide. That's what's happened in
01:32the jurisdictions like Oregon and in Australia, the ones that were, you know, aligning ourselves with
01:39with a bill like this. So the safeguards in many respects are just checklists. And what we find in the
01:45countries where they've been passed, these laws have been passed, is those safeguards lessen and
01:50lessen. Because, arguably, people say they get in the way of people's autonomy. So safeguards usually
01:57are there to get the bill passed. But once the bill's passed, they reduce and they're lessened.
02:03So we've tried to tally up how many MSPs are for and against. There's a lot in the recent days
02:08have said that they're going to be against the bill. There's so many undecided still. What would you
02:11say to the ones who are still undecided? I've been inside Parliament today talking to quite a lot
02:16of MSPs. And, you know, they have an enviable job because, but they're being really thoughtful.
02:24I've spoken to some incredible MSPs who are really, really torn. So I don't think it's a foregone
02:30conclusion either way. I think MSPs are really giving this, they've had, you know, their mailboxes
02:37have been absolutely inundated with strong arguments on both sides. And I think, you know,
02:44I think they want to be hugely fair. I would say to them, if you are not sure, do not risk it.
02:51Because once these bills are passed, there is no going back. And is this the right bill? No.
02:57And is this the right time? Is this a safe time? Are we providing strong end of life care
03:02for all people who are dying? No, we're not. So let's not allow assisted suicide for a small
03:08group of people, arguably, because it's not safe to do that and change the relationship
03:13with patients and doctors. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.
03:18Hi. I'm now joined by Dr. Amanda Ward, who is the legal advisor on Liam MacArthur's bill here.
03:22And thank you for joining us at The Scotsman here today. And can you explain the work that's gone into
03:27this? Because it feels like the team behind this bill have been working on this for years now.
03:32Sure. So I worked with Margo MacDonald and Patrick Harvey on previous iterations.
03:38So for the last 13 years, I've been researching this bill, including doing a PhD on Scots law and
03:44assisted dying. I've travelled all over the world internationally, working with legislators
03:49in permissive jurisdictions. So this is an evidence-based bill. We now have data that we didn't
03:55have 10 years ago. And that data is from permissive jurisdictions and it's government data, peer
04:01reviewed data and independent panel information that we have drawn upon to make sure that we have
04:08the best bill for Scotland, to make sure that we have a bill that fits constitutionally, legally,
04:14culturally and societally with the people of Scotland and the culture and the change that Scots have so
04:21desperately told us they want to see. So why do you think it's going to pass this
04:25time when it hasn't managed to do so in the past two times?
04:28The last bill that the Scottish Parliament considers was 10 years ago. And since then,
04:33we've seen a domino effect internationally of jurisdictions that have passed it. And we know
04:38that it can be done safely, effectively and responsibly. We also have a new intake of MSPs in
04:43session six who are much more amenable to the option of assisted dying. And I think just people
04:48sharing their personal stories as the campaign has gained momentum has really hammered home to members of
04:54Parliament that this is long overdue.
04:58And when it comes to the debate today, people who are against the bill, they're worried that
05:03there's not enough safeguards in place, it's going to slip through slope. I'm sure you're going to tell
05:07me that that's not going to be the case?
05:09Well, what we've done is we've built in protections so that we have a law that isn't available
05:13to everyone, that we have a very safeguarded permissive assisted dying law. So we've built in protections
05:20around coercion and we've built in really strong capacity assessments. There has to be at least two
05:25doctors who independently assess the patient. So this is the most safeguarded bill that Scotland
05:31has ever seen. So what we've tried to do is meet in the middle and find the commonalities and those
05:37start with everyone wanting and getting on board with the fact that everyone wants a good death and
05:43we all believe in compassion and the reduction of suffering and then working out there. So we've
05:48listened to stakeholders from everyone, from the chief medical officer to the churches,
05:53to disabled people and chairman of the ill people who want this choice to build a bill for Scotland
05:58that shadows that very fine line.
06:01It's the culmination of a long four years of hard work. It's exciting, it's nerve-wracking. I'm confident
06:09that the majority of my MSP colleagues recognise the need for reform or at the very least the need for
06:17parliament to be given more time to look into the detail of my bill and consider amendments before
06:23finally deciding whether or not to back the proposals. So we'll see where things get to this
06:29evening but I'm hopeful that we'll take a significant step forward in putting in place a long overdue reform.
06:37Everything gets up to colleagues how they engage with this issue and whether they
06:42want to make public their views or want to continue right up to the last minute to reflect on what
06:51they're hearing from constituents, from stakeholder groups and elsewhere. I think with the situation
06:57with all three that you mentioned, they've been long-standing opponents of our change in the law.
07:03In the case of John Swinney, I think he was on record as saying he feels a lot more conflicted,
07:09a lot more uncertain than he did on previous occasions. So he's been on a journey but I was
07:15never really expecting him or Nicola Sturgeon or Kate Forbes to back it. I think importantly there are
07:22many many colleagues who come to this with their own personal experience, have listened to the personal
07:26stories of constituents and recognise that as I say the ban on assisted dying in Scotland, I was failing
07:33too many dying Scots and their families at the end of life and that reform is urgently needed.
07:39This is an issue that's not going away and these stories that we've heard loudly and clearly
07:45throughout this debate are only going to be more common, more frequent. The demand for a change in
07:51the law is only going to intensify. Well we get into the detail and I think that's an argument I've
07:55been making very strongly to colleagues that whether or not you still have concerns about aspects of the
08:01bill. We need to be able to get into the detail to consider amendments first in committee and then
08:06in the full chamber in parliament. So that will take place later on this year. I suspect the committee
08:13will not return to the stage two until after the summer recess but there's an awful lot of hard work
08:18still to be done. First up though we need to get the general principles backed. I'm keeping
08:22everything crossed but I'm hopeful that will happen later on this evening.