Die Niederlande bereiten sich auf „schwierige“ Gespräche über eine mögliche Verdopplung ihrer Verteidigungsausgaben in den kommenden Jahren vor, sagte der niederländische Verteidigungsminister Ruben Brekelmans gegenüber Euronews.
00:30Ruben Breckelmans, Minister for Defence for the Netherlands, thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:39Thank you.
00:39Now we're here at NATO for the Ukraine Defence Contact Group meeting.
00:43This was always chaired exclusively by the United States, but now it's being chaired by the UK and Germany.
00:49Has the US permanently walked off the pitch when it comes to this?
00:53Is it going to be consistently only European-led?
00:56Because that is a symbolic as well as a practical change.
00:59It has been taken over, the chairmanship has been taken over by Germany and the UK.
01:04I think it's very important that we all decided to continue the UDCG, the Rammstein Group, a cooperation of more than 50 countries to support Ukraine.
01:15I think it's also important that the United States remains involved.
01:18So today, virtually, Pete Hex said the American Secretary of Defence was also joining and also sharing how the United States keeps supporting Ukraine.
01:29But you're not concerned that the US is no longer sharing that?
01:32The United States has clearly stated also today that they remain committed in their support to Ukraine, that they keep delivering what they promised.
01:39I think that's the most important thing.
01:42I think it's good that two of the leading nations, the UK and Germany, have taken over this leading role also when it comes to the UDCG.
01:50And yet, as Steve Witkoff, the United States envoy or negotiator, is in the Kremlin today while Pete Hegseth was online, we also see the US putting much more pressure on Ukraine when it comes to concessions during these peace negotiations.
02:05What's your own interpretation of this setup?
02:07We see a lot more reluctance from the Russian side to compromise and to talk seriously.
02:13So I think it is good that also more pressure is put on Russia because they need to compromise to a larger extent, I would say, but they need to compromise much more than they are currently doing.
02:24I think what's also very important is that we continue the support to Ukraine and that we step up our efforts.
02:29I was in Dnipro myself 10 days ago.
02:32I saw it was the morning after a big air attack.
02:34I saw the impact with my own eyes, also spoke to some of the generals there who are leading the Easter group of the Ukrainian forces.
02:43And they were telling us that the fighting is more intense than ever and that Ukraine needs more and more support in order to be able to hold the line.
02:51And I think we need to do that because not only it's saving Ukrainian lives, but also if the position at the battlefield becomes stronger, then also the position of Ukraine becomes stronger at the negotiation table.
03:02And if the outlook for Ukraine improves and of Russia deteriorates, then, of course, Russia would also be pressured more to compromise.
03:09And I think that's important.
03:10Do you think any pressure has been put on Russia so far, though?
03:14It's hard for me to say because I'm not sitting there at the negotiation table.
03:18I don't know what the Americans are telling Russia exactly.
03:21I think it's very important that we keep the sanctions in place, that we also expand the number of sanctions, but also strengthen the functioning of the sanctions.
03:36Because we now see that those sanctions are circumvented.
03:39So we should do much more also on this to make sure that those sanctions are more effective.
03:45But, of course, there are more ways in which pressure could be put on Russia.
03:49I'm always in favor of that.
03:51For example, also looking at opportunities to use the Russian frozen assets to support Ukraine more,
03:58because that would put both pressure on Russia and also help to support Ukraine.
04:03Do you think Belgium or other countries are any closer to agreeing to that?
04:07Of course, there are some legal hesitations.
04:10There are also some other considerations.
04:13I think it is important that we keep looking creatively at opportunities in order to use those frozen assets.
04:18And, as I said, it is important because we need this continuous flow of military support to Ukraine.
04:25Because, obviously, the Netherlands has been a huge supporter of Ukraine with F-16s from a humanitarian perspective,
04:30from a legal perspective in terms of investigations into international humanitarian law breaches.
04:35But looking at your own government, there is a bit of a split.
04:38There was a €3.5 billion discussion between the government and the parliament.
04:43And one of your political partners, Geert Wilders, was against supplying more money to Ukraine.
04:50Can you tell us a little bit about the situation that you find yourselves now in as a Dutch government
04:55with somebody, a senior partner, really against supporting Ukraine?
05:01And how will that fare in the long term?
05:04So, we, of course, in the Netherlands, we have a coalition with four parties.
05:07And we created a coalition agreement.
05:10It took quite a long time in order to get there.
05:11But what we agreed upon is very clear, that our support to Ukraine is unwavering in any dimension,
05:17also in the military support.
05:19So, over the last few years, our support has been €3.5 billion on average.
05:24And that's why we also decided that we will spend another €3.5 billion next year
05:29and that we will accelerate and front load that support
05:32so that we can already spend €2 billion of this this year.
05:34Will the Netherlands have to maybe take money from elsewhere, other social services, health, education, housing and so on,
05:41to continue to pay for this, particularly at a time of such global instability
05:45when it comes to economics and finances throughout the world?
05:48So, if we want to spend our, increase our defence budget by, to a large extent,
05:56so, of course, there's now a discussion about increasing the NATO goal
06:01and it's about serious numbers.
06:03So, in the Netherlands, we are around 2% now.
06:05That's what's in our budget.
06:06And if we grow to a much larger percentage, of course,
06:10agreeing on that in itself is not a difficult part,
06:12but how to fund that, how to finance that.
06:14And that will require political decisions that are difficult.
06:17There are three options, in theory.
06:20You either raise taxes, you cut spending or you raise your debt level.
06:23And those are all three are difficult political discussions.
06:26We are having some of those discussions now in the Netherlands,
06:30but that's only for next year.
06:32For us, an important moment is going to be the NATO summit in The Hague,
06:35in our country, for the first time in history.
06:38With the 32 countries, we need to agree upon a new NATO defence investment pledge,
06:43a new percentage.
06:45What would you think is the best option?
06:46Do you think that maybe this financial mechanism within the Coalition of the Willing
06:50might be something that the Netherlands could borrow off?
06:53Or do you think money should come from taxes?
06:55Because obviously, the Americans are saying 5%.
06:57Maybe it'll come down to 3.5%, 4%,
07:00but it's still more than double what you're paying already.
07:03What would your preference be?
07:04So, I think it is important that in every country,
07:08whether it's any NATO member, NATO ally or any EU member,
07:13every country needs to have this political discussion.
07:15So, if we want to increase our defence spending,
07:18what type of political choices need to be made in order to fund that?
07:22And that's not easy for any of us,
07:23but we all need to have this national discussions,
07:27also in the Netherlands.
07:28And for me, it's hard to predict what comes out of it.
07:30And, of course, there are EU instruments that can support in this,
07:35but the lion's share of this should take place on a national level.
07:40Do we know any more in relation to this potential reassurance force
07:44or peacekeeping force or whatever that might look like
07:48after your meetings with the Coalition of the Willing?
07:50Obviously, I know the Netherlands would be involved in it in some way,
07:53but do we know what it might look like
07:54and whether Europe could be there for a backstop to support Ukraine?
08:00with the absence of the United States.
08:03So, I think the military planning has taken place over the last few weeks,
08:07so it's now becoming more clear
08:08how a potential European involvement can look like.
08:12But what we do still see is that, you know,
08:14the Coalition of the Willing consists of around 30 countries
08:17and different countries still have different interpretations
08:21on how such a military engagement should look like,
08:24what the objective is, what the mandate should be,
08:27how it would relate to a potential monitoring mission,
08:30which is something separate, but should take place at the front line.
08:34Could it happen without the security guarantees of the United States?
08:37Could Europe and the Coalition of the Willing
08:39and other countries stand in for Ukraine
08:42in a way that Ukraine has been failed for so many times?
08:45We need to have the United States on board
08:48in the sense that they are playing a central role now in the negotiations.
08:51They are playing a key role when it comes to European security
08:55and also, of course, when it comes to the support of Ukraine.
08:58So they need to be on board in some way.
09:01I think what we should do now is make sure that we have a clear plan
09:04that European countries can also say,
09:06okay, this is what we can bring to the table
09:08and then specifically have the conversation with the United States
09:12on what their role is going to be.
09:14But it's too early still to say more details about this
09:17because there are still many different ways
09:19in which the United States can be involved.
09:21The Netherlands is trying to boost its military or expand its military
09:24and you sent out this questionnaire to 18 to 27-year-olds.
09:28What are you trying to achieve by sending out a questionnaire
09:31to young people about potentially joining the military?
09:34What would be the objective here?
09:35The objective would be to have people think about
09:38whether they would be interested to join the military
09:41or whether they would do, as we call it, a service year.
09:44So it's a one year in which young people can get to know our military
09:48and after that one year they can decide whether they want to join
09:51or whether they want to become a reservist
09:53or whether they want to do something else.
09:55All options are still open.
09:57We don't want to have any subscription.
10:00That's not what we are going to do.
10:01We want to keep it voluntary.
10:02But this is a way to have young people think about
10:05whether defence and whether the military would be something for them.
10:09But it's a seismic moment, isn't it, that you're doing that?
10:11So we need to grow in terms of budget.
10:13Of course we are growing,
10:14but we also need to grow in terms of the material that we procure,
10:18but also in the number of people.
10:20We have currently around 75,000 people working for our Ministry for Defence.
10:26We need to grow towards 100,000.
10:28And on top of that, we want to have much more flexibility.
10:31So we need up to another 100,000 more,
10:34mostly reservists, to make sure that if tensions arise,
10:39that we will be able to mobilise more people in order to support our military.
10:43Do we know much about America's plans to potentially reduce the troop size in Europe
10:48from 100,000 to potentially 50,000 or somewhere in between?
10:52So far, they haven't announced any reduction.
10:55The US is committed to NATO, also when it comes to Article 5.
10:58They very clearly state that.
11:00But they also said that Europe should do much more,
11:02that it's not about burden sharing anymore, but about burden shifting.
11:05And what I see is a great willingness among European countries,
11:08including the Netherlands, to step up our efforts.
11:10And if then the United States over time decides to reallocate some of its resources
11:16to their own region, for their homeland defence or to the Indo-Pacific or anywhere else,
11:23I think the most important thing is that we do this together
11:25and that we create a shared plan in which they are able maybe to shift
11:30some of their resources to other parts of the world.
11:33And we, as European countries, can gradually take over some of those resources.
11:37But we need to keep the United States on board.
11:39They will remain essential to our security.
11:42But I think it's also in the interest of the United States to keep NATO strong.
11:46And that's also what they always state.
11:48Okay, Ruben Brecklemans, Minister of Defence for the Netherlands,
11:52thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
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