- 1 year ago
The latest episode of the Sunderland Echo's The Roar podcast, reflecting on the Black Cats' defeat to Swansea City
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo. My name is Jason Jones,
00:23joined by James Cockney and Phil Smith. As always, not a particularly nice way to start
00:29on Monday morning, this one, another relatively lacklustre performance from Sunland at the
00:33weekend and a 1-0 defeat at the hands of Swansea City at the Stadium of Light. Phil, I'll come
00:40to you first. I mean, this was a bit of a disappointing one from Sunland's perspective, wasn't it?
00:46Yeah, it was a really, really poor performance. I think that obviously we all, I think, probably
00:53anticipated that there'd be a little bit of a dip in terms of the intensity in the games
00:57when we essentially knew where Sunland were going to finish. And obviously the rotation
01:04of the team is having an impact on the performances, and I think we'd accept all that. But I think,
01:08obviously, the concern is just how little Sunland are creating at the moment, I think is probably
01:14the big thing. And I think that's contributing to a little bit of fatigue and a little bit
01:19of flatness just around the whole movie, around the place, I think, really. It feels like we're
01:23almost limping along, waiting for the playoffs. And Saturday kind of embodied that. It was
01:28such a, there was no real intensity until probably after the Fame Mender came on, which was an
01:33hour into the game. You know, the first half, from a Sunland perspective, almost totally
01:37like a non-event. So I don't know, really. It just depends how you feel about it, other
01:44than it was not a great watch. And a lot of people understand that we would feel like they've
01:48probably wasted this that afternoon. I think it depends how concerned you are, is how quickly
01:53you can think someone can switch back on. That's the big question, isn't it? That I don't
01:59have the answer to, so I'm going to pass it over to James.
02:03I mean, that's the thing, isn't it, James? You know, obviously the performance is one
02:08thing, the result is another, but the big concern is going to be momentum and a lack
02:13thereof, and then the ability to regain it heading into a guaranteed playoff campaign.
02:17Now, I mean, what did you make of Saturday's display and what do you think it says about
02:21Sunderland's ability to really have a go at these playoffs?
02:24Yeah, I think it was poor. It's absolutely not the best Sunderland can play. They aren't
02:30in form at the moment. I do think this has perhaps been bubbling away under the surface
02:34for a little while in terms of Sunderland's performances. Like, haven't really been amazing,
02:39have they, since the Coventry City game in which they lost 3-0. Yes, they've won a couple
02:44of games since then, but the performances in terms of attacking hasn't really, really been
02:50there. So I am a little bit concerned coming into the playoffs, although I do think that
02:53Regis LeBris is rotating. I think mentally they're probably in a little bit of a weird
02:58spot. But at the end of the day, you know, there's 43,000 people in that stadium. I was
03:03talking to my mate and he paid, I think, 70 quid or 65 quid for him and his girlfriend
03:09to go. So you always have a responsibility to those fans in the stadiums as well to perhaps
03:14do a little better, regardless of the spot you find yourself in. And I think Sunderland
03:18do need to go into those playoffs with some momentum. I hope it'll come. I really
03:22want to see them sort of click going forward because I think, you know, they've shown that
03:29they can defend really well and really stoically, you know, Swansea aside, which came from a
03:33set piece that perhaps shouldn't have been given in the first place. But, you know, Sunderland's
03:38two wins after the Coventry game have come by set piece goals, haven't they? They haven't
03:42scored from open play very much at all in recent times. So it is concerning, I think. But
03:47the good thing is they've got enough time to sort of play their way back into form, haven't
03:52they? And I think, is it sort of human nature that this happens? I think probably yes, because
03:57that carrot of the automatics is gone, hasn't it? You hope that Sunderland have enough about
04:02them to sort of come back into it for the playoff campaign and with a few players hopefully
04:07coming back from injury as well. That was a positive of last week, wasn't it? You know,
04:11Zolafe looks like he's going to be very, very important. So I think it's not like an
04:16absolute crisis for me. I'm not really, really worried, but like in two games time, if this
04:22is still happening, I'll probably be a little bit more worried. I think they've just got
04:26enough time to sort of sort it out now.
04:29I mean, you sort of alluded to it already, Phil, but you know, there has perhaps been a slight
04:34drop-off, sort of notable drop-off in Sunderland's attacking intensity and the creation of chances
04:40in recent weeks. I mean, what do you sort of attribute that to and how do you think the risk
04:45goes about trying to rectify?
04:48Well, I'm not too sure. That's the bit of the game that I can't really get my head around. I think
04:53that you can obviously understand and almost anticipate to an extent that the intensity of
05:00someone's play might drop off when, as we talked about, there isn't that sort of incentive of the
05:04top two or the jeopardy of dropping out in top six. I can't understand why the attacking patterns
05:10and the passing and the creativity would drop so significantly. I find that quite hard to get
05:15the head around. I think there's sort of, we asked the briefs about this after the game
05:19and he felt it was a case of, mainly because of the disruption in the team, because of the
05:24changes that he's making. You know, he made the point of Trey Hume moving to the left-back,
05:28Chris Rigg moving on to the left side of the midfield three. On Saturday, you've got
05:32players in positions and new combinations that haven't played together very much. Obviously,
05:36that triangle down the right side on Saturday was Brown, Harrison Jones and Patrick Roberts,
05:40who I don't think have ever played together before at the same time. So I think there is that thing
05:44of like, there's a lot of familiarity and it's making it all a bit disjointed and it's not as
05:48instinctive and as quick as it was earlier in the season. So I do understand that point.
05:55And I think there will be a natural, I think, you know, when Job comes back to play on the
05:59left-hand side of the midfield three, you know, when you get back to Roberts and Hume,
06:04whenever that may be connecting down the right, you probably will see a little bit of an improvement.
06:07But it is something I'm a little bit concerned about in terms of, I do think there's time for
06:14something to play the way back into form. I'm not overly concerned about that.
06:17I think you've got two pictures this weekend where you've got to be sensible.
06:20I don't want Enzo Lefebvre in 90 minutes, twice in four days. Do you know what I mean?
06:24You still then got two fixtures with two blocks of training after that before the playoffs.
06:29So I do think there's an opportunity when you get to that Oxford game to kind of say,
06:33right, come on, you know, let's go with what we want to look like for the playoffs.
06:38So I'm not hugely concerned generally about the situation.
06:41I genuinely think LeBrice is doing the right thing for changes in the rotation.
06:45I do have a little bit of concern about the level of attacking player,
06:49because at the moment it is way off in my opinion.
06:52And, you know, LeBrice seems pretty confident that it'll click fairly quickly
06:58once he starts naming a more familiar side.
07:00I sincerely hope he's right about that.
07:04I think Phil's touched on a good point there as well, Jace.
07:08In defense of LeBrice, if he wasn't rotating now,
07:11there would be calls for him to do so.
07:14Quite vocal ones as well.
07:15He's probably doing the right thing, isn't he,
07:17in terms of having almost a little bit of a mini preseason, isn't it,
07:21to get everybody back up to speed, to get some of the injured lads back in.
07:24But it is still just a little bit concerning because we've seen what Sutherland can do from an attacking sense.
07:30And it's way off that at the moment.
07:32Yeah, I mean, it certainly feels like he's sort of trying to strike some of a balance at you, isn't he?
07:38And obviously there is the need to keep certain players slightly out of the firing line, if you like.
07:44And obviously LeFay is one who is a very obvious example of that.
07:48But I also think if you look at someone like an Eliza Mayenda, you know,
07:52I think given the fact that, especially since LeBrice confirmed last week that we're not going to see Jaden Danz this season,
07:58there comes a much more heightened need to sort of ensure that both Mayenda and Isidore are fit and ideally firing,
08:08but certainly available heading into that playoff campaign.
08:11You know, I think obviously one of the more obvious points of debate at the moment is that left wing position.
08:18And obviously people are talking about Tommy Watson.
08:21I do also think as well, where Watson is concerned, it's worth pointing out that he hasn't had a great deal of football since his own injury.
08:28You know, he's probably playing himself back to speed a little bit in that respect.
08:32But certainly, you know, there's people calling for Mayenda to come in on that left flank and say,
08:35well, you can do that all you like, but then suddenly you're in a position where if anything,
08:39if anything happens to him, you know, suddenly it's you're looking a little bit threadbare point of attack, aren't you?
08:45And it's all about, I guess, trying to, you know, keep as many of those key players as healthy as possible heading into playoffs.
08:53But then at the same time, there has to be a certain amount of focus on maintaining some kind of momentum,
08:59because it's not as easy as simply picking it up again if it completely fizzles out.
09:05You know, I fully agree with you, James.
09:07You know, you said before that we're not we're not in a crisis.
09:10Obviously, you know, in a playoff position and who could have foreseen that at the beginning of the season?
09:16But I do also think that, you know, there is something to be said for heading into a playoff campaign with a little bit of confidence.
09:24And I think the big concern for a lot of people, Phil, is that maybe the mood is slightly shifted.
09:30I mean, do you think that's the case or do you think it's not something to be overly concerned about?
09:36Yes and no, I think there definitely is a little bit of a mood shift now.
09:39And I can understand just from a very basic point of, you know, it's been a bit of a slog watching Switzerland over the last couple of weeks.
09:45I don't have any doubt about that.
09:47And I think that that's another thing.
09:50I'm not I'm not sure how entirely concerned I am about that, because I think when the season ends and we get those playoff fixtures
09:57and you know who's on the plane and you know when they're playing and I think there'll be a big sort of refocus and a big reset.
10:04And I've got no doubt that the atmosphere around those playoffs games is going to be unbelievable.
10:08And I think at that point, you will have that sense of, you know what, you've had a good season.
10:12And this is incredibly exciting.
10:14We've got this opportunity to go and do something special.
10:16I think I don't have a huge amount of concern about that, to be honest.
10:20I think there'll be a natural sort of deep breath when we get to the end of the season.
10:24And, you know, right, we start again now and we go again.
10:28I just think it's it's a really it is a really tricky one because you've alluded to it there in terms of like the flip side of it would be
10:36if Labrice was just picking his strongest team, inverted commas, you know, in the end, got an injury playing off the left wing or what have you.
10:42Then all of a sudden you've only got one strike potentially for the playoffs.
10:45And I do think he's in a little bit of a difficult position.
10:47I mean, the strike thing, especially like it just underlines.
10:50We've talked about a lot over the last couple of days, like you really need three strikers, don't you?
10:54And the dancing, like I obviously, you know, he had no symptoms.
10:57It was something that came out from nowhere in the medical on deadline day, which makes it hard to find somebody else.
11:04You know, I sympathise with that, but there's no getting past the point that it leaves Labrice with a real headache now in the next few weeks,
11:09because as you mentioned, he's got to sort of wrap Isidore and Meander up in cotton wool.
11:14And that obviously has, as you say, because of Meander's versatility, that has an impact on other positions where other players aren't available.
11:20You know, people like Jan Pervéder, another sort of big sign in last summer, who just has never really been available this season.
11:25So I do, I do sympathise with Labrice a bit because some of those key kind of, key players isn't quite the right word,
11:33but those players who were supposed to be the ones knocking on the door now, you know,
11:36giving him the option to rotate, to look after some of the other players and often competition just aren't there.
11:41And I think that makes this balance in that quite tricky for him at the moment.
11:45So I, as I say, I don't worry so much about the mood.
11:49I just think naturally it's going to be a little, that aspect is going to be like a switch.
11:53I think when the season's over and it's like playoff time, it's going to be like, right, here we go.
11:57I think everyone will actually relish having that competitiveness back.
11:59I think we'll see a real sort of excitement again.
12:02But it's important that, as I say, I think those last few games of the season are going to be really important
12:07because I think at that point you'll be able, Labrice, because of the schedule ease,
12:11and you'll be able to focus a little bit more on putting a more familiar team out.
12:14And I think hopefully what we'll see is then something to be a bit more convincing and that'll sort of delay a lot of fears.
12:21But I guess, I guess time.
12:25And I mean, we are seeing some players sort of come back into the fold and bolster his rants a little bit, James.
12:31Obviously we've already mentioned him, but Enzo Lafayre got another half hour under his belt against Swansea.
12:35Sunderland seemed to improve, you know, relatively notably when he came onto the pitch.
12:41I mean, let's not tempt fate too much, because obviously we did it with Remain Monday the other week and he's sidelined again now.
12:47But, you know, if Sunderland can keep Enzo Lafayre fit, I mean, how much of an impact can he potentially have over that playoff campaign?
12:55Huge. I think having him fit is a game changer. I don't think there's too many players like him in a championship in terms of his ability.
13:03I think it's noticeable how much better he is than everybody else on the pitch.
13:08And I mean that with the best will in the world, because Sunderland have some really, really good players.
13:12But Enzo Lafayre just seems to be a cut above for me.
13:15And I think he probably improves people around him and makes people look a little better as well.
13:20There's that old adage, isn't there, that you're only as good as the players you've played around.
13:24And I think Enzo Lafayre is a case in point.
13:26So, yeah, I don't want to get too excited about it because, as you say, we've been there in recent weeks.
13:31But for me, when he came on against Norwich as well, he looked really, really promising.
13:35So, I think you've just got to play the long game with him, nurse him back until the playoffs.
13:40It'd be interesting to see, actually, as Phil says, with this little two-game block coming up, whether he starts one or not.
13:45But yeah, hugely, hugely talented.
13:48And I think it's just his range of passing, something a little bit different as well.
13:52The way he moves, the way he looks to get Sunderland on the front foot.
13:56Yeah, I'm excited by him for sure.
14:01And we also saw Sam Ed come on and play a part against Swansea.
14:06Phil, I mean, he's not a player who, I think it's fair to say, has really hit any kind of momentum this season.
14:12But were there signs from him, perhaps, that he can still play some kind of role in Sunderland's camp?
14:17Yeah, it was a weird cameo, wasn't it?
14:20Because I feel like the headline was obviously that fairly simple switcher player that you put out of touch
14:24and then you gave a cheap foul away, didn't he?
14:26And he kind of came away as like, oh, you know, I did actually think he had a positive impact when he first came on.
14:33I actually thought he quickened Sunderland's play up a little bit.
14:36He showed a bit of urgency.
14:37I thought he looked much sharper than he had previously in the season.
14:41I thought he was getting about the pitch much, much better.
14:43So I think at this stage it's really hard, isn't it, to sit here and say like, oh, Sam Ed's going to be a big player for the playoffs.
14:49Because I just don't think we've seen enough over the course of the season.
14:53And the one thing I will say is this is good news for Sunderland because this means that we can manage Daniel in particular,
15:00his minutes over the next particularly Easter weekend.
15:02And I think he's crying out for a little bit of a break, to be honest, because I think like I think everyone knows
15:07sometimes get a bit of stick throws defending them.
15:09But I think he's a brilliant player, but he's not at his best level at the moment, in my opinion.
15:13And I think that Sam Ed being back just gives the brace the opportunity, whether it's to let Neil sit a game out,
15:20whether it's to just give him an hour for the next couple of games, whatever it is.
15:24I think that's going to be massive in terms of the playoffs.
15:26It means that you don't have to sort of give Job too much of a workload when he comes back in this weekend.
15:31So I do think that was one of the biggest positives from Saturday, actually, was getting a midfielder back
15:36who can just allow the brace to manage the squad really sensibly in the weeks ahead.
15:40As I say, I'm not ruling out Sam Ed making a little bit of a go at this because I thought he looked much, much sharper.
15:47It's just whether he can get that rhythm, that passing, that touch back to the playoffs.
15:51There is a massive question mark over that. I don't think there's any doubt about that.
15:54I'm not trying to kid anyone on.
15:56But I do think that was a genuine positive for a few different reasons going into these next few games.
16:03I mean, it's such a bizarre one, isn't it, James?
16:06You know, when he came in and when he looked at his resume and his pedigree,
16:10I think everybody thought that he was really going to, you know,
16:13almost take the championship by the scruff of the neck and have a real positive loan spell.
16:17I mean, obviously, it hasn't worked out for one reason or another injuries,
16:21just general lack of sharpness. I think it's fair to say it.
16:25But it's just been such a weird season for him, hasn't it?
16:29Yeah, I do feel for him because it's been so stop start.
16:32Obviously, he signed with that injury, didn't he?
16:34It took him longer than I anticipated.
16:35He then comes back and then gets a little bit of a reoccurrence or whatever it was.
16:40And it's very hard for players to gain momentum in those sorts of situations.
16:45I agree with Phil. I thought it was probably, by and large,
16:48the best he's looked in a Sunderland shirt from what I've seen of him.
16:52I thought he was actually quite good, as Phil says, apart from those sort of two headline mistakes.
16:57I thought he moved the ball well and he injected a little bit of urgency and pace into his play,
17:02which I think he needs to do, to be honest, because time's definitely running out for him at Sunderland.
17:07I think he can be an important player for the reasons Phil mentioned.
17:10Obviously, he allows a bit of rest in rotation and it's sort of like a bit of an ace in the hole at this point, isn't it?
17:18If Sam Ed turns out to be really good for the playoffs, that's a real bonus.
17:22If he can contribute, that's a real bonus.
17:24I don't think we're really expecting him to at the moment, given what's gone on this season beforehand.
17:30But if he can get back and get playing to the level we know that he can,
17:36it could be a little bit of a boost heading into it.
17:39And yeah, it does offer the chance to freshen that midfield up.
17:43And he does add a little bit of experience in that midfield as well.
17:46So I think watch this space with him.
17:48But yeah, he needs to sort of prove during these last four or five games, doesn't he?
17:54That he's worthy of the shirt and that he can compete for a place.
17:57Because if you name your playoff semifinal team now, Sam Ed's definitely not in it, is he?
18:04Which is strange, really, given his pedigree and what we all thought we were getting at the start of the season.
18:09But it just hasn't materialised. And sometimes it happens that way.
18:11Unfortunately for Sunderland, it's happened with a couple of players this season.
18:15Speaking of unexpected boosts, Phil, Labris obviously last week in his press conference,
18:22he was talking about Agia Lise, Niall Huggins, Jenson Seale,
18:26perhaps suggesting that they're a little bit closer to return to action than any of us might have expected of one.
18:32Yeah, I still think with Huggins in particular, I'd be amazed if we see Huggins again this season,
18:39just because he's been out for so long.
18:41But Labris was really positive about him in terms of the progress he's made.
18:45And I think he just didn't want to rule anything out because I think he was like,
18:48look, I think he's expected to return to non-contact training either this week or next.
18:53And I think he just said, look, he's really well connected with the team.
18:57So let's see.
18:58But I mean, I think it's hard to imagine Huggins playing a major role this season.
19:01And you're not going to put him back in for a playoff game, are you?
19:03I don't think.
19:04I don't think.
19:05But obviously in terms of the, well, first and foremost for a player,
19:08he's just had the worst luck imaginable with injury.
19:11I mean, it's absolutely fantastic that you're sort of getting back to fitness
19:15and hopefully for next season.
19:16That's a huge boost for Southern as well, because we saw how good he could be last year.
19:19I think at least there's obviously a little bit of a different case,
19:22because yes, he will be short of match fitness.
19:24He hasn't played since January.
19:25But if he's able to get a couple of good blocks of training in before the playoffs,
19:30then there's absolutely no reason why he couldn't be on the bench
19:32and potentially be a little bit of an impact sub.
19:35And given how vulnerable we've been in that position in terms of Dennis Serkin,
19:39that's potentially an absolutely massive boost.
19:42Don't forget as well that like, you know, touch wood that we get there.
19:45There's a, there's a decent gap between the semifinals and the final.
19:49So even if you're not necessarily, you know, ready to play a huge part in the semifinals,
19:54if you were able to get through them and hopefully someone will,
19:56then you've got another like 10 days to the final.
19:59And I think like, it's potentially a real boost that, as I say,
20:02nobody's sitting here saying Alisa is going back when 90 minutes on Friday.
20:05It's going to be a bit of a race against time, obviously,
20:07but just have that little bit of extra and defensive cover, I think,
20:11especially a left-sided player we've talked about is, yeah,
20:14potentially really, really, really good news.
20:16Offset the Jade and Dan's news somewhat,
20:20which obviously is a really big blow for all the mentions,
20:23all the reasons we mentioned before that.
20:27I mean, the Elise news sort of caught me off guard a little bit, James,
20:31because we were there the game that he picked up that injury against Stoke City
20:34and we were both just immediately kind of in agreement that it looked really serious.
20:39And I mean, the noise since then has been that it was probably going to be pre-season.
20:42So as Phil said, I mean, if he can get back and play any kind of role over the remainder of the campaign,
20:47playoff campaign, whatever it might be, I mean, really welcome boost for Sunderland.
20:52Yeah, huge boost.
20:53I mean, when everybody's fit and firing Sunderland's defensive line,
20:57there's an argument to say that Adji Alisi could be one of Sunderland's best centre-backs.
21:02When he was playing at centre-back earlier on in the season,
21:04it was a big blow when he got that initial injury, wasn't it?
21:07Obviously, he fought his way back and then got injured in January again.
21:10But yeah, could cover left-back, centre-back, definitely a massive boost.
21:13Adds height, adds experience.
21:15He's a player I really, really like.
21:17So yeah, I think having him as an option would be massive, definitely.
21:22Especially with the noises on Dennis Sergan, not too bad either.
21:26Absolutely, absolutely.
21:28Another interesting selection choice of the weekend, Phil.
21:31We saw Harrison Jones handed his first league start.
21:34Obviously, he's been impressing hugely for the under-21s this season
21:38and he has had the odd cameo here and there.
21:40I mean, what do you make of his full Championship debut?
21:43Yeah, I thought he did okay.
21:45I thought he was maybe a little bit tentative.
21:48I've seen him be a bit more decisive in games than that,
21:52both for the under-21s and at times when he's come on for the first team as well.
21:55So it was a difficult game for him to come into, really,
21:57because as we discussed earlier, Sunderland were just so poor in an attacking sense.
22:00And he had so little of the ball that I'm not sure he was really able to show what he's all about.
22:05And I think it's one of those where maybe the next time he starts the game
22:08and listen, with his schedules coming up, especially over Easter weekend,
22:11there's every chance he will get another start at some point.
22:14I'm sure he'd be an awful lot better for it.
22:16And we kind of see him being a bit more incisive on the ball.
22:20But I think it's a great story because we've known for a while that he's a really talented player,
22:25but I don't think at the start of the season it was necessarily expected
22:28that he'd be someone who'd be pushing for first team starts.
22:31I mean, even as recently as January,
22:33we were potentially looking at him possibly going on over the National League, weren't we?
22:37And there was a bit of expectation that would probably happen.
22:39And it's a testament to the way that he trains every single day
22:43and the fact that he's gone up to the level of his teammates
22:46and Labrice is trusting him to play in the games as well.
22:48So, yeah, I just think it's a really lovely story, really.
22:52It just goes to show if you knuckle down, then, you know, anything's possible.
22:58I think James has spoken to Harrison Jones a few times
23:01and someone who absolutely loves the club and just is absolutely relishing what's in front of him.
23:05You know, even just being on the bench is such a big deal for him.
23:08And I think that's absolutely lovely.
23:10The one interesting thing it raises is, like, should we be a little bit concerned
23:14that Milan Oleksic isn't getting picked in that position when Labrice is rotating?
23:19Because that's his position, right?
23:21And listen, like, we know obviously the first season is about adjustment for Oleksic.
23:25And, you know, we saw with Mijander last year, you know,
23:28he kind of was so much stronger in his second season.
23:31But I'm not sure I'm going to throw that out to James.
23:34There's a little bit of a worry that Oleksic isn't really being considered to play
23:38in centre midfield at this point in quite low-risk games.
23:43I think so because he was so clearly brought to the club as a centre midfielder
23:47and an attacking one at that.
23:49And Harrison Jones definitely played furthest forward of that three.
23:52So I think you're right to raise that.
23:54I really feel a bit sorry for Milan Oleksic because when he comes in and starts,
23:58it's out of the blue and he starts, like, on the right wing or the left wing.
24:01And it's not really his position, although he does possess some good pace.
24:06I'm not, like, worried about it long-term because I think there's enough time for it to turn it round.
24:10And I am reminded of that in my NDK study where it's prudent not to write a player off too early
24:15because it is about adjustment and such like.
24:18But then there's, you know, on the flip side of that, there's the example of Jewison Bennett as well,
24:22who was a very talented player but didn't get a run and then was, you know, perhaps played a little bit out of position.
24:27So I'm interested to see how it goes because I actually quite like Milan Oleksic.
24:31I think he's very talented.
24:32He's got sort of, he's got good pace, good attributes.
24:37Touches on the ball are very good.
24:39But it's, again, we always say, don't we, it's very hard to get, like, a head of steam up
24:44unless you've played five, 10, 15 games in a row.
24:47And he's just not getting that at the moment.
24:49I think it's very interesting, a very interesting question in a sense that will he get that next season?
24:54We don't know.
24:55It obviously depends on Sunderland's sort of position, whether that's in the Premier League or the Championship.
25:01Just circling back to Harrison Jones though, I think it's, it is a really nice story
25:05because I think the player in his camp would have definitely have been open to going out on loan in January
25:11and then with a few injuries and the way he's sort of knuckled down, as Phil says, and impressed.
25:16Gisela Brees wanted him as part of his, his sort of squad.
25:20And I don't think you can pay him any higher compliment than that.
25:22He is a very, very nice lad to talk to, very driven, but very down to worth as well.
25:26And his brother's not half bad as well, who's just sort of stepped up to the under-21s.
25:31Jaden Jones, he's a good little player.
25:33So it is a nice story and I'm sort of excited to see where Harrison Jones goes from here
25:40because that academy just keeps on producing.
25:43I mean, just going a little off-piste here, but Felix Scott, 16 years old,
25:47stepped up the past two games and scored three and two.
25:50Started one game against Tottenham, came off the bench against Villa and, you know,
25:55he all of a sudden is looking very good.
25:57I'm like with Gary Goosey and I'm hesitant to big them up too much
26:02because they are so young and there's so much going to happen.
26:04But that academy is just so vibrant.
26:06And Harrison Jones really is sort of at the forefront of that at the moment.
26:09Obviously you've had the success stories of Rick Neill and Patterson,
26:12but Jones has been the new standard bearer in a way that the sort of competence
26:19in which he's captained the under-21s, his general attitude,
26:22his sort of behaviour around the club has been exemplary.
26:25And I think he deserves everything he's getting at the moment.
26:28On his performance on Saturday, you know, wasn't like hugely impressive or anything,
26:32but I thought he did sort of the basics.
26:34Well, as Phil says, tough for him to come in.
26:36I think he's only going to get better and I'm excited to see where he goes.
26:41Absolutely. Absolutely.
26:42It feels like a bit of a conveyor belt at the moment, doesn't it James?
26:46Just to change direction a little bit, Phil.
26:49Last week we heard that Sunderland have open discussions with fans about the prospect of moving away,
26:54supporters back down into the lower bowl.
26:57I'm just sort of interested to get your thoughts on this and whether you think it would be a wise move.
27:03I know there's been some people complaining about atmosphere at the stadium for a little while now.
27:09Yeah, I'm really going to give you a real poor answer.
27:12I don't, I'm not sure, I'm not sure about this.
27:14I think like, so I think moving the away fans into the low bowl would improve the atmosphere.
27:19I think it's just like a natural thing.
27:21We know from Sunderland's away support as well, which is basically the best around.
27:26And I think like, I think having the away fans, you know, you're going to get a level of noise for basically 90 minutes from an away support.
27:34And I think the to and through, I think between them, the home fans that are around them,
27:38that just sort of naturally happens.
27:40The reaction when, if the opposition score and they celebrate, and I think the home fans around them and reacting to that,
27:46I just, I do think you get a better, more natural atmosphere when the away fans are in the lower bowl.
27:52Would it improve it enough to make it worth obviously the disruption to home fans who,
27:58because it's been a long time the away fans have been up there.
28:00You're going to be moving season card holders of years and years, potentially to do that.
28:06I don't know whether you would improve it so much to make it worth that disruption and potential disappointment.
28:11But I think like the atmosphere thing for me, like, you know, it's still there in terms of the stadium light,
28:17like the Luton leg was absolutely unbelievable a couple of years back.
28:21Like that was with the away fans up there.
28:23You know, the second leg, because we're basically going to finish fourth, is going to be unbelievable.
28:27Like, I just think it's the way football has gone a little bit.
28:31We go up and down the country and I'll get James' thoughts on this in a minute.
28:34There aren't loads of places at the moment where the atmosphere is unbelievable.
28:37I don't think Sunderland is an exception where a lot of the time the atmosphere is quite flat.
28:42I wonder if that's the way the style of the games have gone a little bit.
28:46Like, there are a lot of games in the championship where, especially at the Stadium of Light,
28:50and I think a lot of teams, not just Sunderland in the top half get this,
28:52where like the opposition put a lot of players behind the ball, they slow it down.
28:56And you centre-arse are having a lot of possession. It's quite slow.
29:00I don't think it's conducive to a great atmosphere.
29:02So I think for me, like, I think it's kind of, I think the level of the championship's improved,
29:07but I think maybe the style of the games isn't as conducive as to a really, like,
29:11robust atmosphere as it once was.
29:13So I do think it's worth exploring because I think it will improve the atmosphere.
29:17But I have to say, I don't think this is a Sunderland thing.
29:20Like, there haven't been many atmospheres this season where I've been like, this is brilliant.
29:24Plymouth was one. The atmosphere there was rocking.
29:26There's a lot, I think it's, yeah, I'm not sure this is just a Sunderland thing.
29:30I think this is a bit more wider in terms of football, to be honest.
29:34I think a lot of it's circumstantial as well in terms of what's on the game.
29:38I would say the best atmospheres I've been in this season would be Leeds away,
29:42Middlesbrough away, and Coventry away.
29:44Now, all of those games had an asterisk attached to them.
29:47Leeds United pushing for promotion against a potential promotion rival,
29:50hoping to sneak in there. Really, really good atmosphere.
29:53Middlesbrough game, you know, tease we a derby.
29:55Hugely exciting game, as Phil mentioned, back and forth, 3-2.
29:58A bit of a throwback in a way, in a sense, the way the game went.
30:01Both teams trying to achieve something, thought the atmosphere was superb.
30:05Coventry City absolutely hate us under Frank Lampard.
30:09Sort of new life, new manager, really rejuvenated.
30:13Heading for a playoff spot, or fighting for a playoff spot.
30:16And I thought that was a tremendous atmosphere.
30:19In terms of moving the away fans down, I would like to see it.
30:22I think Phil's right to mention disrupting fans.
30:25But I think it's good that the club are going to have those conversations
30:29with the fan groups. I think that's really important.
30:31So I think the home atmosphere is sort of everybody's responsibility, isn't it?
30:36So I'd encourage fans to get involved with Red and White Army
30:39and the local branch, supporters branch, all of that stuff.
30:42Because they do listen and you will get a say.
30:45I think it's really important.
30:47I think generally the atmosphere at the stadium of like...
30:51And I remember this from when I was a season ticket holder as well,
30:53because I used to do exactly the same thing.
30:55But sometimes you're in there five minutes after the opening whistle
31:01because there's queues in the concourse and whatnot.
31:05And maybe you're coming over to the ground late
31:07because historically there's not been too much around the ground.
31:10Obviously that's changing now.
31:11You've got the sheepfolds in that area generally has been redeveloped.
31:14So perhaps that would help.
31:16But I think there's so much that goes into a home atmosphere that it's a multi-layered problem.
31:25I'm not sure just bringing the away fans down would transform the atmosphere for 46 games.
31:31But I think it would help.
31:33But there are other factors as well.
31:35I've gone on long-winded there.
31:36But I think there's a lot to it.
31:38And Phil's actually right to mention sort of the style of games anymore.
31:41It's not back to front Quinn and Phillips anymore, is it?
31:44Just generally across the spectrum in the EFL and the Premier League,
31:49games are more about the build-up and stuff like that now.
31:53I think there's a lot of times...
31:56And the reason why I mentioned other grounds is because I think West Brom is a great example.
32:00So we went to West Brom a few weeks ago.
32:02And West Brom, it was all on the line for them in terms of their playoff place and stuff.
32:06And the atmosphere there wasn't great.
32:08But I think that's in part because they had two centre-outs
32:10were passing the ball to each other for like 75% of the game.
32:13Like, I do think that impacts the atmosphere.
32:16And there were times at the start of the season where the stadium light was rocking,
32:19like Chef Wade and the start of the Middlesbrough game.
32:22The atmosphere was genuinely brilliant.
32:24We don't see games like that a lot at the moment,
32:26partially because I do think some of the intensity has dropped massively since the turn of the year.
32:31I have girls because the opposition were like, oh, we should probably stop playing out from the back
32:34and pressing someone because they're going to pick us off.
32:36So I do think there's like, I think there's loads that goes into it.
32:39I would definitely be genuinely exploring the possibility of moving the new AFL.
32:44I do think it would make a difference, especially if you get up to the Premier League.
32:47I do think it would have a positive impact on the atmosphere.
32:50But it's definitely not like an immediate cure, I think.
32:55And as I say, I'm not sure cure is the right word because I do think when it needs to be,
33:00the stadium light is still capable of really sort of bringing it.
33:04I think there's a lot of reasons why, of late, it maybe hasn't been what we associate with it.
33:10But I think that's a lot to do with, as I say, the football, to be honest.
33:13But this is my personal opinion.
33:16There's not loads of grounds that I can think of up and down the country as well,
33:20where the away fans are so far away from like the core home support and the Roker end.
33:26Like Phil touched upon it, but it doesn't feel like they've got the opportunity to bounce off each other very much.
33:31Now, I remember when the away fans were in the Roker end and everybody was right next to each other
33:36and you had the crazy corner sort of in its pomp and its heyday.
33:39There was a real back and forth.
33:41And I think that does help generate a lot of atmosphere as well.
33:44OK, good stuff.
33:48Should we call it there then, lads?
33:50That's all we've got time for in this week's show.
33:52Join us again next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and developments.
33:56In the meantime, follow all the latest Black Hats news on the Sunderland Network.
33:59You can give us a follow up on social media as well.
34:02Thanks to James.
34:03Thanks to Phil.
34:04Thanks to you for listening.
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