00:00Right, it's 1.26. It's been described by a certain Piers Morgan as preposterous, hasn't it?
00:06A professional women's pool tournament has been hit by protests after the final was contested by
00:12two transgender players. So Harriet Haynes beat Lucy Smith to win the ultimate pool women's pro
00:18series title after they both got past four female opponents on their way to the final in Wigan.
00:24Thoughts?
00:25So?
00:25No.
00:27You have no problem with two transgender women, so biological males,
00:32getting to, not only getting to the final, but both of them getting to the final and
00:36competing against each other so there was no female contestant left in the final?
00:42I think some people would take issue with you using the word female in that way.
00:45Okay, what's a woman then?
00:48What's your definition of a female?
00:50I think if you're going to go down the definitional argument, you could
00:53pick any item in this room and say what's your definition of that and you would find a word,
00:56you'd find a string of words.
00:57Oh come on, you're a sensible person, you know what the definition of a woman is, come on.
01:02Most women are people, I'm not going to go down a definitional argument with you.
01:05Why not? You're acting like Chris Dahmer now.
01:08Well no, because it's just a silly question.
01:09No, I'm sorry. You either have a women's category or you don't.
01:14You have a women's category in pool, therefore it should only be biological
01:17females who are in that category. Otherwise it's not fair on many levels.
01:21What is a woman? The answer that I'm supposed to give is adult human female, right?
01:26Well, no, you're not supposed to give it, I just want to know what you think.
01:29But that's just a tautology.
01:30Well, not really.
01:31Because you're just using it, then you could ask what's a female?
01:35So no, do you believe that a female is someone who identifies as female
01:39rather than has the biological makeup of a female?
01:42No, I don't think that I could just, for example, tomorrow identify as a female like that,
01:45I don't believe that. But I do believe that...
01:48But if you've had a bit of surgery,
01:49if you've had a bit of surgery and a few hormones, then yes.
01:51I do believe that there are transgender people who need to be treated with dignity and respect.
01:55OK, sure, but does that mean they get to go in the women's category of pool?
01:59So...
01:59And win the competition?
02:01Pool, as far as I am aware...
02:04And you don't know anything about this, I've looked it up.
02:07Pool is a game where you have balls on a felt surface and you hit them with a stick, right?
02:15So I've actually read what female pool players say about this,
02:18and they say that men, biological males, have an advantage in pool
02:23because they are taller in general, they have a longer arm span,
02:27they also have less wide hips, narrower hips,
02:31which apparently is an advantage too.
02:32Do you know how tall Harriet Haynes, who was the winner, is?
02:35No, I don't, but I'm saying on average...
02:37Right, but is that out of... So if there is a woman who is six foot tall...
02:40Tom, Tom, Tom, you either have a female category or you don't, OK?
02:45So if you're arguing that we just have gender neutral categories in all sports,
02:48fine. I'm not.
02:49But otherwise you don't have a female category.
02:51I'm saying that there are some sports where it's absolutely inappropriate
02:54for people who went through male...
02:55But you don't know anything about pool or anything about sports in general, do you?
02:59Should you ban a transgender woman from being in a pistol shooting team?
03:05Wow, we're not talking about pistol shooting.
03:07It's a sport, it's an Olympic sport.
03:08If there's a female category, then yes, it should only be for biological females.
03:13Chess.
03:14Same with that, if there's a female category.
03:16Why do you think women are worse at chess than men?
03:17I don't think women are worse at chess.
03:19If you have a female category, then you stick to it being female.
03:23If you have a male category, you stick to being male.
03:25What do you mean by female?
03:26If you want no categories at all in your particular sport,
03:29and everyone within that sport agrees, that is fine.
03:32So what you're doing here is you're trying to say that transgender women are male...
03:36Biologically, they're not the same as women who are biologically female
03:41and were born female and are female.
03:43So what you're...
03:44In a chromosomal way, in a biological way, in every other way.
03:47Is this just sport that you'd apply it to,
03:48or do you want to apply it to every realm of life?
03:51I'm currently talking about sport.
03:53Yeah.
03:53What you won't admit is that there's any difference
03:55between a transgender female and a female.
03:58You won't admit that.
04:00Now, this isn't about bigotry.
04:01This isn't about discrimination.
04:03This isn't about saying that these transgender women can't live their lives,
04:08but they can't compete, in my view, in a female category
04:13because they are not female in the same way as a woman is female.
04:17I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
04:19Why do you think there have been protests?
04:20Why do you think one of the female pool players is so furious about this?
04:23So your argument here isn't about any innate biological advantage in the sport.
04:29It's about categorisation.
04:30It's about that and category.
04:32We're talking, I'm talking more about the category in this case.
04:35Okay.
04:35Because we don't know...
04:36Because it's pool.
04:37No, no, no.
04:38Also because I think it's a better argument
04:40because fundamentally, I think it's a strong argument
04:42and just ends the argument, really.
04:44You either have a female category or you don't.
04:46In pool, we have a female category and a male category.
04:50If you want to have a gender-neutral tournament, then go ahead.
04:52You keep using the term female category.
04:54So for example, we also have female loos.
04:56Do you think that transgender women should be allowed to use female loos in supermarkets?
05:03Probably not.
05:03I think there should be gender-neutral loos.
05:05You think that transgender women...
05:06We're not talking about loos, though.
05:08We're talking about a competition.
05:10Female sports already don't get as much input in terms of cash,
05:14in terms of marketing often, in terms of all sorts of things.
05:17And now you have two people, born male, who are winning the tournament
05:21that females have been obviously training a lot for and it means a lot to them.
05:25Hence why some females...
05:26It means a lot to these people as well.
05:27Yes, but I'm sorry.
05:28I'm sorry.
05:29I'm sorry.
05:30I'm sorry.
05:31Because someone identifies as female does not mean that they are female
05:35in the same way as someone who's born as female.
05:37That's not to say that I have anything against transgender women.
05:40I don't, right?
05:42But I don't think they can compete in a female category.
05:44You've just admitted that you don't think it's because there's an innate advantage.
05:48No, I do think there is also...
05:49You think it's because of the category.
05:51I have been told by pool players who I've read what they've had to say
05:54and they do say that there are some male advantages in terms of,
05:58as I already explained.
05:59Anyway, let us know what you think.
06:02No, I didn't just say that.
06:03I said arm span.
06:05We've already gone over this.
06:06I say that there should be a female and a male category.
06:08If you want to have a gender neutral category, have one.
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