00:00It's been a dramatic few months since the Georgian Dream Party won the country's parliamentary
00:13elections amid accusations of unfair voting.
00:18In this episode of the Europe Conversation, I sit down with Georgian Prime Minister Orakli
00:23Kobakidze to find out whether Georgia is still on that European path, its relationship with
00:29Russia and what the future holds as the new US administration makes waves in the region.
00:37Prime Minister, great to see you again. Before the elections, you told Euronews that you wanted
00:44Georgia to be a fully-fledged member of the European family. After all that has happened
00:51between Tbilisi and Brussels since then, if Brussels were to call tomorrow, would you go
00:58and would you go into talks and restart those negotiations?
01:04Thank you for your interest and it's great to see you again and to have this opportunity to
01:08speak to your audience. Yes, so we have a very strong foreign policy priority and that's the
01:16full-fledged membership in the European Union. We are facing some significant challenges with
01:24the European bureaucracy but we are still very optimistic that Georgia's new membership by 2030
01:31is achievable. So that's our medium-term goal and we will be consistent in terms of following
01:36this goal and I am hopeful that the approach towards Georgia will be more fair in the next
01:45upcoming years. So we will do our best in order to promote our European path.
01:50Are relations with the EU at a crisis point as far as you're concerned then?
01:56We are interested to have a kind of healthy relations with the European Union, which is not
02:02the case at this moment, but we are confident that it's not because of Georgia's policies,
02:11it's because of the European bureaucracy's policies towards Georgia. So if that policy changes,
02:17everything will be in a better shape. Looking at your strategy for moving ahead then,
02:23you know, is Georgia very firmly on that pro-European path? If it's not immediate,
02:29what is your path for the foreseeable future? Well, absolutely. So again, we are committed to
02:35the European integration. We stand ready to consistently fulfil all the obligations
02:42deriving from the association agenda, deriving from the DCFTE. So that's a very clear agenda
02:47and we will be patient. We will wait for the European kind of decisions about Georgia's
02:57European integration. So we have to demonstrate this patience, but at the same time we will
03:03consistently fulfil all the obligations which are about accelerating our European integration.
03:11How are you taking that conversation with the Georgian people forwards? You know,
03:16was the election enough? Do you think you'll be holding a referendum in the near future?
03:22So we are the government for all citizens. Our support was 54%, but around 38% of Georgians
03:33voted for the radical opposition. We have to take care also of their interests. It's also
03:38one of our responsibilities. What is your current relationship like with Russia? Do you have any
03:44plans to reopen the Russian embassy in Tbilisi? We have no diplomatic relations and there is
03:51no space for restoring diplomatic relations because of the occupation of our two historic
03:59regions and because of the so-called recognition of the so-called independence of Abkhazia and
04:05the Tskhinvali region. But we are running a pragmatic policy and that's the key content of
04:12our policy towards Russia. We are keeping the trade and economic relations with Russia and
04:20that's how we are going to run it further, to have pragmatic policy towards the Russian Federation.
04:27That's one of our policy lines in terms of the foreign policy of the country.
04:36Around 20% of Georgia's territory is occupied by Russia. Does Georgia intend to take
04:45those territories and reclaim them back? So the territorial integrity of Georgia is of course
04:53one of the national issues for our country, for our people. This territorial integrity is
05:01recognized by the international community and of course we have to defend our national interests
05:08in this respect. But our vision is peaceful. We have been repeatedly saying that
05:17a non-peaceful solution is absolutely impossible. In this case and only peacefully
05:25we would like to restore our territorial integrity. There is no alternative.
05:30And we are hopeful that at some point this will be realistic. Let's see.
05:36Georgia has lost more than 14,000 lives through Russian aggression over the years. You know,
05:45Georgians understand the situation better than anyone else, you know, from anyone who suffered
05:51from a war. If Russia and Ukraine were to enter into a peace agreement, who would you be backing?
06:01So we suffered a lot since the early 90s, as you have mentioned, and that was the key reason
06:08why we had to fight a lot so intensively to avoid another war in Georgia.
06:16And it was not easy for us not to become the second front line because there was a very high
06:22interest and there was a request in this respect and we did our best to avoid another war in
06:28Georgia. In terms of the peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine, I think it has
06:35no alternative. From the very beginning, from February 2022, we have been saying that the
06:43peace ceasefire has no alternative. People are dying. Of course, the international community
06:50should be fully concentrated on promoting this ceasefire agreement and the peace.
06:56That's the key for improving the overall situation in the region and in the world.
07:01Do you see Georgia's future as being fully integrated into Western security and the
07:08economic system, even if it means a worsening relationship with Russia?
07:13So, you know, we have quite clear foreign policy goals in terms of the NATO integration. That's
07:19not on the agenda at this moment because of the Western countries' kind of decisions and
07:25approaches and the overall context around us. But the European integration is the key foreign
07:31policy priority. Of course, while making any step, we have to take into consideration all the
07:41side effects of it. For example, we had to make a very kind of crucial decision about not
07:47introducing sanctions against the Russian Federation, which was requested behind closed
07:54doors and sometimes also publicly by the Western stakeholders. We had to defend our national
08:01interests. So we had calculated quite in a simple way that introducing sanctions against the Russian
08:08Federation would cause huge problems for the Georgian economy. Even in the first year,
08:16the recession would make around minus 10 percent. And according to the pessimistic
08:26scenario, it could reach even minus 18 percent. So finally, you always have to make balanced
08:32decisions. But finally, I think that we can finally become the full-fledged member
08:39of the European Union without sacrificing our key national interests.
08:43You mentioned earlier the new U.S. administration. You know, they're bringing evolutions into the
08:48region. What is your focus there? Have you spoken to Trump yet?
08:52Not yet. But we are optimistic and the Georgian people are optimistic when they are listening to
08:57the recent statements, also about USAID, for example, about NED. So we have been talking
09:04about these problems since 2021. We have initiated the transparency law in Georgia,
09:11which has been criticized by the U.S. embassy very heavily under the previous administration.
09:17This law was just about the transparency, about submitting the annual financial declarations by
09:21the NGOs to the Ministry of Justice of Georgia. And the U.S. embassy under the previous administration
09:29the U.S. embassy under the previous administration say that it was a black day for Georgia.
09:36So we are very much happy that our messages are the same, coinciding with the new
09:41administration's messages. And of course, these developments make us very optimistic
09:50that we can restore the partnership with the United States. You know that the
09:55former administration suspended the strategic partnership with Georgia. And we have stated
10:02very clearly that Georgia is ready to restore the strategic partnership with the United States.
10:10Can you tell me about the strategic role that Georgia plays as a transit door between Asia
10:17and Europe? How important is that?
10:21Initiative. Historically, Georgia was connecting Europe with Asia and East with the West. And we
10:27would like to restore this historic function for Georgia as much as possible. And for that,
10:34we are doing a lot. We are investing into our infrastructure, including the highways,
10:38the seaports, the airports, etc., railway. And of course, these investments create some
10:45new opportunities for Georgia. We would like to further strengthen the partnership
10:50with relevant countries on both sides of the trade, with Europe, with the United States,
10:56and at the same time with the countries in the South Caucasus, with Central Asian countries,
11:04with China. I think these kinds of trends, the positive trends that we enjoy at this moment,
11:10can promote the restoration of our strategic function.
11:14Very finally, if you could send individual messages to President Trump, President Putin,
11:22and then also to Europe, what would those individual messages be?
11:26I would have some common message for everybody around us. Fearness is the key. I think
11:35during the last years, we had to face a lot of unfair approaches. I think the fair approach can
11:41also properly promote the objective interests of all different countries around us.
11:49Prime Minister, thank you, as always, for talking to Euronews. Pleasure to see you today.
11:53It's great. Thank you so much.
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