00:00Welcome to Apropos, well it's the latest restriction being imposed on women in Afghanistan.
00:08After being banned from speaking in public, they're now being forbidden from praying loudly
00:13or reciting the Quran in front of other women.
00:16They're already excluded from secondary school education, many public spaces and most jobs.
00:22Their plight is being highlighted at a new exhibition here in Paris as Emily Boyle explains.
00:2914-year-old Muska is soon to be married.
00:34In exchange, her family will receive a water well and some solar panels.
00:40Muska's portrait is just one of hundreds hanging from the walls of this new exhibition in Paris.
00:45The photographs are part of No Woman's Land, a project which casts a light onto the daily
00:50lives of women in Afghanistan, now mostly restricted to the shadows.
00:58All the photos of women that you're going to see were taken indoors.
01:02Women can no longer exist in the public space and no longer have access to other venues.
01:07So they can no longer go to cafes or restaurants, to the gym, to parks, to swimming pools, to
01:12beauty salons.
01:15Since the Taliban returned to power in 2021, women have been almost completely confined
01:21to their homes.
01:22In August this year, women were even banned from showing their faces or speaking in public.
01:28Now they are no longer allowed to pray in front of each other.
01:32The United Nations has accused the Taliban government of gender apartheid and potential
01:37crimes against humanity.
01:39We cannot leave Afghan women to fight alone.
01:43If we do, we have no moral ground to fight for women's rights anywhere else.
01:50Their fate determines the fate of women everywhere.
01:53The Taliban Ministry of Vice and Virtue recently pledged to ban any images of living things
01:59in the media.
02:00During their rule in the 1990s, the Taliban had outlawed most television, radio and newspapers
02:06altogether.
02:11To discuss the situation for women in Afghanistan, we're joined by Nargis Nahan, women's rights
02:17advocate living in exile in Canada, also former Afghan minister.
02:22Thank you so much for being with us on the programme this evening, Nargis.
02:26Firstly, after over three years now of Taliban rule, how different is Afghanistan to the
02:32country you left?
02:35It's very different than the country that I used to live in the last 20 years before
02:40August 2021.
02:43As you mentioned, I was a cabinet member.
02:47Like me, there were also other women, they were serving as ministers, as deputy ministers,
02:52as member of parliament, as a woman rights activist, running businesses and as well as
02:57media organisations.
02:58Unfortunately, after 15 August 2021 and collapse of state, most of us were evacuated from inside
03:06Afghanistan.
03:07But on top of that, the Taliban started introducing decrease after decrease.
03:12And so far, they have issued more than 80 decrees directly targeting the very basic
03:18human rights of the women in Afghanistan.
03:21And today, the women are not allowed to go to school, university, work, going out without
03:28male guardian.
03:29Even they are not allowed to recite holy Quran in presence of other grown up women in public.
03:34That is the kind of severe restriction that women are facing in Afghanistan today.
03:39As a result of the situation, unfortunately, today, the violence against women has severely
03:44increased.
03:45There are a lot of forced marriages and selling of the girls, because now they are a burden
03:51on the family.
03:52And on top of that, the woman's position has degraded not only in the society, but also
03:57within their families.
03:58They are not seen as equal human beings anymore in their houses and as well as in the society.
04:05And rights groups, they said the Taliban is committing human rights violations, as you
04:09say, crimes under international law with impunity.
04:13What can be done to stop this?
04:15And why is the Taliban not being held accountable internationally?
04:19Well, unfortunately, what we see from the international community is only statements.
04:27We do not see any kind of pressure, serious pressure that they will put on the Taliban.
04:32We just see that they are coming statements under their statements.
04:35And on top of that, whenever there is any opportunity for putting pressure on the Taliban,
04:41they prefer to ignore that.
04:42They prefer to give in to the demands of the Taliban, because they mainly deal with the
04:48Taliban based on their own interests and as well as geopolitical situation, rather than
04:53looking at the gross violations of human rights the Taliban have committed in Afghanistan.
05:00Very recently, four countries have courageously come forward, including Canada, Netherlands,
05:06Australia and Germany.
05:08And they have said that they are going to introduce Taliban, I mean Afghanistan to ICG
05:14for violating the basic rights of women in Afghanistan.
05:20So we really hope that that process will move forward and Taliban will be held accountable
05:24for all these violations.
05:26And what other kind of concrete measures then are needed to address these human rights issues?
05:35First of all, we have to have clarity amongst ourselves, the state members, that we are
05:40talking about women's rights in Afghanistan.
05:42It's not only, it's not an internal issues of the country as Taliban are claiming that
05:48it's our internal issue and countries outside Afghanistan has nothing to do with it.
05:53It is a universal issue.
05:54That's why we have UN state members and we have resolutions that are saying that these
05:59rights are universal and will be respected and upheld by all member states.
06:04That is number one.
06:05The second thing is that we have to continue providing support, including online education
06:11opportunities and any other opportunities that is available and could be provided so
06:16that we can build the resilience of women and girls inside Afghanistan so that they
06:20don't lose hope and they're not further downgraded in their family and as well as in the society.
06:26But at the end, what is also needed that the world comes together and help us out that
06:30we come up with a political party for Afghanistan where actually we can have sustainable peace
06:35and we can restore back a government that will have internal legitimacy and as well
06:40as external legitimacy.
06:42It's a hard work and we know that it requires patient resources and energy, something that
06:48we see somehow the rest of the world is not interested to invest in Afghanistan anymore,
06:53very unfortunately.
06:54Do you feel then that the international community has essentially failed the people of Afghanistan?
07:00Absolutely.
07:01They abandoned the women of Afghanistan.
07:03They abandoned all their allies who stood for all the rights such as human rights, democracy,
07:10equality and women's rights that all of us are embracing and talking about.
07:16They just left us alone on our own and told us that you have to fight with the Taliban
07:21and we would rather go and engage with the Taliban because of our geopolitical interest.
07:28But what we see today, that today besides letting us down, letting their own partners
07:34down and besides the change of situation that we see for women inside Afghanistan, we also
07:38see very rapid expansion of extremism in Afghanistan, brainwashing of the young boys by the Taliban
07:45inside Afghanistan.
07:46That sooner or later, it is going to become a big source of threat of insecurity for the
07:51rest of the world.
07:52And with the Taliban becoming increasingly authoritarian, what is the state of civil
07:58society there?
07:59Because it's difficult not just for women but also for human rights defenders, for protesters,
08:03journalists, all of whom are perceived essentially as enemies.
08:07Yeah, absolutely.
08:09Anybody that they stand or question any decision of the Taliban, they are seen as traitors
08:14and they are being abducted, they are being detained, they are being tortured.
08:18In some cases, if they are men, they are being killed.
08:20In case of women, they are also being raped.
08:22There are so many reports that are confirming that women that they are being detained by
08:26the Taliban are also being raped by the Taliban.
08:29So that's what happens.
08:30And they do that intentionally to terrorize the rest of the citizens, that if you're standing
08:35against us, if you're protesting against any of the policies that we are adopting, that
08:40is what will happen to you.
08:42So that is the situation of civil society inside Afghanistan.
08:45Unfortunately, the space is totally diminished.
08:47There is no civic space inside Afghanistan.
08:50There is no dialogue.
08:51There is no engagement between people and the Taliban as a de facto authority.
08:57But those of us that were evacuated from Afghanistan three years back and we are now resettled
09:02in different countries, thanks to technology that has helped us to stay in contact with
09:07our people inside Afghanistan and provide them with the support and as well as make
09:12sure that we understand the situation, we collect the data and we amplify their voice
09:17and take their issues and voices to different platforms and make sure that the world has
09:23not forgotten Afghanistan and Afghan women and they are aware of the situation that is
09:28happening to women inside Afghanistan.
09:30You're in Canada, Nargis.
09:32Other activists, they went to places like, or other people who fled Afghanistan, they
09:37went to places like Iran and Pakistan, where they're again being exposed to forced deportation.
09:43What is the situation for those people?
09:45Is there any hope that they are one day going to be able to return home?
09:49Well, after Taliban are in power, there is no hope that they will return home and they
09:54are going to be safe inside Afghanistan.
09:57Even if they are forced to leave these countries, as soon as they go back to Afghanistan, we
10:02have many incidents report that they're being handed over by the Taliban, and in some cases
10:08they are being detained by the Taliban, in some cases they are being killed by unknown
10:12people that nobody takes responsibility.
10:15What we also see that, unfortunately, after a year, most of the countries have stopped
10:21accepting and resettling and welcoming these women from the neighboring countries.
10:27So they are stuck in a very limbo situation without any support in these countries.
10:32They also don't have the documents.
10:33They cannot go to the doctor.
10:34They cannot do anything.
10:36Their children cannot go to school.
10:37So we really hope that two things will happen to them.
10:40One is that countries come forward and allocate some resources that we can resettle these
10:49women into different countries, including Canada, U.S., and other European countries.
10:53And on top of that, we also need support so that we can provide some basic support, such
11:00as technical vocational education, humanitarian support, education for the little kids that
11:05these women are having until they live in these neighboring countries, so that at least
11:10the time that they are having will pass, but at least their children should not be denied
11:15education in these countries just because they don't have the documents.
11:19Nargis, we'll have to leave it there for now.
11:21We do really appreciate your time on the program.
11:24That is women's rights advocate Nargis Nahin, she's also a former Afghan minister.
11:29Thank you so much.
11:30Well, that is it from us for now.
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