Ukraine must be allowed into NATO, Lithuanian defence minister tells Euronews

euronews (in English)

Lithuanian Defence Minister Laurynas Kasčiūnas told Euronews' The Europe Conversation that Ukraine's path to NATO membership should not be in doubt.

Transcript

00:00Ukrainian President Zelensky held frank conversations with his European counterparts and NATO allies

00:14about the need to get behind his victory plan, but will the West eventually regret not heeding

00:19his calls?

00:20For the Europe Conversation, my catch up with Lithuanian Defence Minister, Laurinas Kačiūnas.

00:25Well, Minister Laurinas Kačiūnas, Minister of Defence for Lithuania, thanks very much

00:31for joining us on this special event.

00:33Great pleasure.

00:34This NATO Defence Ministers' Meeting, we're here in NATO studios for the Europe Conversation

00:39on Euronews.

00:40It has been a momentous week in Brussels.

00:44President Zelensky was at the European Council, he was here briefing you all on his victory

00:48plan.

00:49What was your reaction to it?

00:51Very positive reaction.

00:52It was good what we have planned.

00:55Of course, in the plan there's many important details.

00:58So first moment which I should mention, you know, Lithuania always supported Ukraine's

01:04invitation into the NATO.

01:06Because in our understanding, you cannot send a message to Russia that we have at least

01:12informal veto power on NATO enlargement.

01:15It's the biggest mistake.

01:17Every nation which fights for their independence but also fights for our security deserves,

01:25you know, determination right.

01:27Which organisation, which community to choose for the future.

01:31For their children, for, you know, for the generations.

01:34So that's why invitation is not membership.

01:37But it's a point of no return.

01:40It's irreversibility.

01:42So I think we can do with move.

01:46At least invitation.

01:47I mean, there's more than just hesitancy around this invitation to NATO for Ukraine.

01:54Because what they were given was this, quote, indestructible bridge towards membership but

01:58not an invitation.

01:59The United States is not too keen and countries like Slovakia and Hungary are actively hostile

02:04to that.

02:05Yeah, we know.

02:06But, you know, we need to find a compromise formulation, formula.

02:12But you know, I think it's a question, first of all, for our big allies, you know, because

02:20just warnings about irreversibility, bridges, sorry, is not working.

02:26We need actions.

02:27If we will not make actions, you know, I remember the story before the full-scale war.

02:35In 2017, 2018, after Crimea and after Donbass, we Baltics always said, give more weapons

02:43to Ukraine for deterrence.

02:45If Ukraine will be strong, Russia will be deterred.

02:50And we heard a lot of voices from our friends, look, if you will give the weapons to Ukraine,

02:56it will escalate.

02:59It will provoke.

03:01And we gave not enough for them.

03:03And you see what happened.

03:05Doing nothing is escalatory.

03:07Thinking what you, you know, your support to Ukraine can escalate the situation, it's

03:13a mistake.

03:15And I hope, you know, we will understand our mistakes.

03:18Well, what about the hesitancy then from the United States, from the UK, in relation to

03:23long-range weapons into Russian territory, and Chancellor Schulz of Germany point-blank

03:28ruling it out ever?

03:31I understand there are internal things.

03:33We are democracies.

03:35We have elections.

03:36Russia does not have elections, fake elections.

03:40So authoritarian regimes can be effective in some kind of decision-making.

03:46We are depending on cycles, we are depending on societal approaches, and you know what's

03:51happening in some Western societies, rising for right, talking about peace, not even thinking

04:00what does it mean, peace, under these conditions which now exist.

04:04It will be unjust peace, which will lead to another war in the near future.

04:09So I understand that kind of things.

04:11That's why I can explain why some politicians are not decisive enough.

04:17But we will invest into Ukraine defense when we see now what Ukrainian companies can produce

04:24also long-range strike capabilities.

04:27Very effective drones who can hit long-range targets, and even quite resilient on radio-electronical

04:38warfare.

04:39So we will invest into Ukraine for their production, and this production will solve this red-line

04:45problem because it will be Ukrainian weapons.

04:48Yeah, but we're talking about now, I mean, the victory plan is out a few weeks now, and

04:54we haven't really heard much response from Ukrainian allies.

04:57I mean, Vladimir Zelensky went several weeks ago to the United States.

05:01When you talk about election cycles, are you saying that perhaps after the U.S. election,

05:06because the U.K. doesn't have an election cycle anymore, we know that potentially Germany

05:10might be under domestic pressure, but this is always going to be the case, and Ukraine

05:13needs the weapons now.

05:14So what's the solution?

05:15You know, I still think that, you know, American elections is crucial, not only for Americans

05:22but for the whole world, especially the Western world.

05:26And intentionally, you can feel from all allies that we are looking now to November

05:31and waiting for that.

05:34What will happen?

05:35Because it can change the trajectory.

05:37Maybe it will not change, but it's uncertainty which creates a zone now for passive moves.

05:45We are too passive now.

05:46Because are you afraid that you might incite some disinformation in the United States from

05:52Trump's fans who tend to be much less supportive of Ukraine?

05:56Is that the fear?

05:57And are you fearing then if Trump and Vance do become, go to the White House, that Ukraine

06:03is in trouble?

06:04Lithuania will do what we need to do.

06:06But the United States is, I mean, vital.

06:09Vital.

06:10Absolutely.

06:11Because without the United States, we cannot change the trajectory of war.

06:14So it means the United States should be in the boat, not out of the boat.

06:19So I'm not apocalyptic on Trump.

06:22I mean, we need to work with all administrations, Republican, Democrat, in any case.

06:30But it still creates uncertainty, you know, because we just hear about some kind of peace

06:35talks, negotiations.

06:36We will solve everything fast.

06:38But you know, when you go deeper into details, you lack the evidence and the confident decisions

06:47could assure you what this peace, possible peace will be for granted.

06:54But at the same time, there is major escalation with the news from Ukrainian services that

07:01say that Russia is training or that Korea is training 10,000 soldiers for Ukrainian

07:07territory to fight for Russia, which Zelensky said during the week was a step towards a

07:12new world war.

07:13So, you know, there is obviously urgency to end this war.

07:19You know, I would say on Korean participation, of course, Iran-Korea is a big factor now

07:25supporting Russia.

07:27Of course, Chinese factor is even more important because it lets Russia to overcome technological

07:34sanctions.

07:35It's important for equipment and weapons, which Russia still produce.

07:41If you look at Korean, I would say, you know, the human resources was never for Russia problem.

07:50Much more bigger problem is ammunition and sophisticated and more or less weapons.

07:55So I would say much more bigger problem is Korean weapons against Ukraine, not 10,000

08:02something, you know, people, because, you know, you can find another people if you need,

08:08you know.

08:09So I would say, yes, of course, it's a sign of Korean participation, I mean, of its dictatorship

08:16participation.

08:18But if you look more deeper, much bigger problem is weapons and ammunition, drones from Iran

08:26and so on.

08:27You have said that NATO should shoot down Russian drones that fly into NATO airspace.

08:32A lot of NATO allies would say that's a provocation that could lead to a greater escalation and

08:39sometimes it may not be proportionate.

08:42Just explain why you think that's a good idea.

08:45You know, every NATO country has a right to self-defense.

08:50So one thing is detection of a drone, another is killing the drone.

08:53Soft kill is when you jam it, hard kill when you shoot it.

08:57So if it's in your territory, of course, you need to apply a proportional principle.

09:02If a drone is in the forest going, maybe it's not so risky to let him go down.

09:08But if it goes to your bordering city somewhere, which can harm your civilian lives, you need

09:15to shoot.

09:16It's not escalatory, it's defense.

09:20And we need to be more on active defense.

09:22This is a problem because Russia knows that alliance is defensive alliance.

09:26It will be always so.

09:28But this defensive alliance could be much more active, reacting in some kind of situations.

09:35Because if you will not react, Russia will push this line further and further and we

09:40will have a problem then.

09:42Just final question, because you mentioned that the Baltic countries in particular have

09:46warned the West about this back in 2008, 2014 and so on, and very little was done in the

09:51name of de-escalation.

09:54Do you think in a few years' time we'll look back at this and say, we really messed up,

09:58we should have given them all of the weapons at the start?

10:00And what impact do you think it's going to have?

10:03You know, the simple thing, Ronald Reagan, strength, peace through strength, the formula

10:10which is classic, Russia is not attacking the strong.

10:14When you are strong, Russia is not attacking.

10:17As simple as that.

10:19Russia respects when you are strong.

10:22So that's why if you want to peace with Russia, you need to have military muscles, you need

10:28to be military strong to have a peace.

10:31It's the only thing.

10:32And we do not understand that, hope till now.

10:36Is it frustrating for you then when you're with your NATO allies, in particular Hungary

10:40and Slovakia?

10:41Oh, it's a different story, yes.

10:44Tell us a little bit about that, you know, because we see Robert Fico saying that, defending

10:51Moscow essentially and criticising his own allies who are saying, he's saying essentially

10:55they're warmongers.

10:56Yeah.

10:57Article 5 is quite flexible.

11:01I mean, not all countries should support if our supports you and makes a decision to

11:07go for help, military help.

11:11So it's a good thing.

11:12But yes, we have problems with some countries, which we call allies in their behaviour, in

11:18their mindset, works not as allies.

11:22And it's a problem.

11:23Are they a security threat?

11:24I would not call them security threat.

11:27But, you know, if you ask, do we trust?

11:33It's questionable.

11:34Orban and Fico?

11:35You know, I don't want to go to the personalities, you know, but I think we need to, we need

11:43to be, I would say, more frank with them sometimes.

11:48Okay.

11:49Minister for Defence for Lithuania, Laurynas Kačiūnas.

11:52Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation here at NATO.

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