Timothy Gaston of the TUV clashing with the chairwoman of the Stormont Executive Committee

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00:00One final point, for AGNI, if an elderly person in a care home insisted that they are given

00:08a bed bath by someone of the same biological sex, would that be viewed as transphobic by

00:14AGNI?

00:18I think we can't comment on an individual case, if you like, without knowing what the

00:23circumstances are, so I don't think we would be in a position to comment on that.

00:27I just asked Kelly, as head of policy for AGNI, is your Twitter account in conflict with AGNI?

00:33My personal social media has absolutely nothing to do with my professional role.

00:37Even though it's listed as your head of policy for AGNI?

00:41It doesn't say that on my personal Twitter. I find this line of

00:45questioning quite inappropriate.

00:48I'll let you reflect on what you have on your Twitter account. I find it

00:53doesn't comply with what AGNI are trying to do.

00:56All right, that's ridiculous. Seriously, it's ridiculous.

01:04Are you content for us to move on, then?

01:06Apologies, if there was any offence taken.

01:11No? Okay, thank you.

01:12Okay, any declarations of interest?

01:15Okay, Members, under Chairperson's Business, I'm going to refer you, in the first instance,

01:19to page 6 of the PAC, the Member's Code of Conduct.

01:23Page 55 of the PAC for the letter of complaint from COPNI, the Commissioner for Older People

01:29in Northern Ireland, and page 3 of the Table PAC for a letter from AGNI.

01:34I do want to read into the record extracts of the letter of complaint from the Commissioner's

01:41office. Members will have received this, and you will be aware that it relates to

01:48an evidence session in which Kelly Turtle of AGNI was subjected

01:52to a personal attack on the basis of her views on transgender rights.

01:57Evelyn Howe, who's the Chief Executive, said,

01:59I was very offended by the use of Mr. Gaston's time with witnesses,

02:03and was particularly aggrieved that, in the session about equality matters,

02:07Mr. Gaston chose to launch such a disrespectful attack.

02:10It goes on to say, Mr. Gaston is a human being with the right to free speech and to hold

02:14discriminatory views, he truly feels. However, I would wish to remind the whole committee

02:18that witnesses are in a position of less power and privilege than committee members.

02:23We are your guests, and as such, all members of the committee should be especially considerate

02:28of the risk of offence or discourtesy. This was a deliberate and calculated abuse

02:32of that power differential. She does say that she commends all other members of the committee

02:38for their support, but nevertheless, the principal issue of equality rights for older people

02:45is not, and has not been in the past week, the main focus of public attention.

02:49Rather, the rudeness and bias of Mr. Gaston is being circulated on social and print media,

02:55and she wanted this to be taken as a complaint. So members, I have asked the Clerk to include

03:00that Code of Conduct in your pack, and I do want to refer members to Principle 10,

03:06where members should show respect and consideration for others at all times.

03:11Rule 15, that you shall not subject anyone to unreasonable or excessive personal attack.

03:17But I do want to raise and bring your attention, members, to the fact that I have the power to

03:21intervene if a line of questioning by a member is inappropriate, and I have the power to suspend a

03:27meeting if a member persists when the Chair has directed them to stop or is disrupting the

03:32business of the committee. And also, I want to draw your attention to Rule 13 of the Code of

03:39Conduct, and it applies that you shall not act in any way which improperly interferes or is intended

03:46or is likely to properly interfere with the performance by the Assembly of its functions

03:50or the performance of a member, officer, or staff of the Assembly of their duties,

03:56staff officer. So I just want to seek your agreement that we write to AGNI to apologise

04:03formally for the incidents at last week's meeting, that we also respond to the letter of complaint

04:09from the Commissioner for Older People's Office, and that, just to remind you all of the Code of

04:17Conduct, and that any inappropriate questioning in the future will be not tolerated. We have

04:24important work to do on this committee to support victims and survivors, those people who are

04:29marginalised, who are discriminated against, and I will not, as Chair of this committee, allow

04:34the conduct of certain individuals to detract from our very important work. Does anyone have

04:40anything to say? All agreed. Chair, would it not be more fitting that we refer this, and I'm happy

04:46to propose to the Commissioner for Standards, and on the basis of their findings, not the soapbox

04:51of in here, that then we make the, we respond to both complaints that have been raised. Go ahead,

04:57Carol. I want to declare an interest, maybe a couple of us can do it, myself, Connie, Brian,

05:04and Harry, or Alanna. Committee for Standards. Committee for Standards and Abilities. But the

05:10issue is there needs to be a complaint, Timothy, made by someone for it to go, so. Go ahead.

05:16Just, if the Clerk can clarify if a committee can refer that, or would it have to be done by an

05:21individual? It's my understanding the committee can't, but an individual MLA or an individual

05:27member of the public can. Okay. On that basis, could we respond accordingly and advise that that's

05:33the appropriate mechanism, and I'm happy to fully engage with them. Well, I've just clarified that

05:39that isn't the appropriate, and it would have to come from an individual. Now, I am going to move

05:44on, but I take great exception from the use of the word soapbox, and it just shows that you have

05:50learned nothing from the past week, from the outrage at your comments, and from some of the

05:57chastisement you've received in the Chamber because of your behaviour thereto. So please reflect

06:01on this complaint and the disruption it has caused to this committee. I'm going to move on.

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