'We are no longer in 1945: Enlarged UN Security Council would 'better correspond' to today's world

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00:00Jean-Yves Dutrieu is a professor of geopolitics and a former deputy representative of France

00:05to the United Nations.

00:06He joins me now to talk a bit more about all of this.

00:10Jean-Yves, what do you think about this reform of the UN Security Council that was proposed

00:14by the French president, expanding the UN Security Council from five to 11 permanent

00:19members?

00:20Is it a good idea?

00:21Yes.

00:22By the way, it's not new.

00:24We have said that for the last 20 years.

00:27When I was deputy ambassador in New York beginning of the 2000s, it was already a French proposal.

00:35We support, as it was said, Germany, Japan, India, Brazil, and now two African countries.

00:44There is a need to enlarge the Security Council for it to better correspond to the reality

00:50of the world of today.

00:52We are no longer in 1945, but today.

00:56It's clear that we need more dialogue with the South, with Africa, with India, big countries

01:01like this, in order to be able to have, you know, joint decision on peace and security.

01:09So given all of that, I mean, will it ever happen or is the Security Council just too

01:13elitist to let it happen?

01:17I think the U.S. position has evolved.

01:20That's good.

01:21But now we have to convince China and Russia.

01:24That's perhaps much more complicated.

01:26For instance, Russia, China could oppose to the membership, permanent membership of Japan

01:33or even of India, because they are more or less a strategy enemies.

01:38So we need to have the agreement of the five permanent members in order to enlarge the

01:45group of the member of the Security Council.

01:49That's a challenge.

01:50It is a challenge.

01:51But do you think it will ever happen or is it just a pipe dream?

01:55I am not that optimistic, as I said earlier, after 20 years of discussion.

02:02Given the fact that the world of today is much more divided than the world of 2000,

02:08we saw that in Ukraine or in the Middle East, I'm not overconfident that it will happen

02:14soon.

02:15Well, this is in regard to the Security Council.

02:17But what if we broaden it out?

02:18I mean, what about the U.N. as a whole?

02:21Is it still relevant today?

02:24I think it's relevant.

02:26Never before has been more useful direct contact between ambassadors, ministers, head of state

02:33and government.

02:34The world is very dangerous.

02:36If we don't speak to each other, even if we are not able to reach consensus in a minute,

02:42it's always good.

02:43Look, Macron spoke with the president of Iran yesterday in New York.

02:49So U.N., it's a forum where you can speak even to those that you never meet.

02:56You can meet them in New York.

02:58And besides that, speaking about climate change or economic development, there are a lot of

03:05things done in the U.N., including, by the way, in the World Bank and the IMF.

03:12So all these institutions should be preserved in spite of the fragmentation of the world

03:19of today.

03:20Absolutely.

03:21But then what would you say to critics who perhaps say the U.N. doesn't really seem to

03:25be doing anything, particularly in war-torn countries, besides making calls for things

03:30like ceasefires that never happen?

03:33The problem is not the U.N.

03:35The problem is a lack of consensus between the regional powers.

03:40Look, Middle East, you have Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and others.

03:46Look on Ukraine.

03:48You have Russia.

03:49So lack of consensus between regional powers and lack of consensus between big powers.

03:56And this is the issue of veto.

03:58Russia has vetoed many times any decision, resolution of the Security Council on Ukraine.

04:05The U.S. has vetoed some resolution, recent resolution about Gaza and Israel.

04:11So when you abuse of the veto, you are not able to reach a consensus.

04:15And this is not because of the U.N.

04:18This is because of the lack of cooperation between big powers.

04:23Given that, I mean, here we are almost at the one-year anniversary of the war in Gaza.

04:27Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, is going to be addressing the U.N. tomorrow,

04:30the Palestinian president speaking later today.

04:33Is there anything that he can say, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, that might get someone

04:37like Benjamin Netanyahu to change his mind, get the international community to do more?

04:43The problem is the policy of Netanyahu.

04:46On the one hand, you have the September, the 7th of October last year, terrorist attack

04:53of Hamas and killing 1,200 Israeli, including French people, by the way.

05:00But now you have this war, as you said, nearly one year of war in Gaza with a lot of collateral

05:07victims.

05:08And that should stop.

05:09And by the way, it's interconnected with what is happening today between Hezbollah and Israel,

05:16because Hezbollah is launching missile rockets against Israeli civilians in so-called solidarity

05:24with Hamas.

05:25You see how everything is interconnected.

05:27So it's very complicated.

05:29If there is no good cooperation between big powers, why not Russia, China put pressure

05:34on Iran for Iran, put pressure on Hezbollah, and the U.S. put pressure on Netanyahu to

05:40end all this, not to speak about moderate Arab countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and

05:46so on.

05:47So the problem is the fact that some in Israel and in Hamas and Hezbollah consider that only

05:55violence could settle a conflict.

05:59Jean-Yves, thank you for sharing your expertise with us.

06:01Jean-Yves Dutrieu, thank you very much.

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