00:00The results came in when I was landing in JFK Airport in New York to report to the Secretary
00:15General, Security Council.
00:18During that period, I traveled back and forth between Washington and New York.
00:25In Washington, talking to members of the U.S. Congress, Senate, the administration.
00:34And in the meantime, back home, following the results announced, violence erupted.
00:41And the main, main concern, absolute priority was to get international action.
00:49That's why I was very busy, active, lobbying the U.S. Congress, because for the U.S. administration
00:59to give green light, it had to have the backing of the Senate, of the House of Representatives.
01:09And at the time, I was told by friends in the Congress that although they were sympathetic
01:19to the plight of the Timorese, they were reluctant to commit American troops following the Black
01:29Hawk Down, following the catastrophe of U.S. intervention and withdrawal from Somalia.
01:38But the public pressure built, including by Australia, Prime Minister John Howard
01:44at the time, the Portuguese Prime Minister António Guterres, now Secretary General,
01:50and everybody talked to President Clinton, whom I also met.
01:56And it was the backing of the U.S. for an international security force to be deployed
02:05to Timor-Leste that this was made possible.
02:09But let me say very clearly, it was also because Indonesia agreed to it.
02:17If Indonesia had not agreed to it, if the TNI had said no, there would have been no
02:24interference, no international intervention.
02:28But credit must go to the TNI leadership, to President B.J. Habibie, Dewi Fortuna Anuar,
02:40his advisor, the then Coordinating Minister for Defense Security, later President Susilo
02:48Bambangwiliono.
02:49These are the people in Indonesia who made it possible for Indonesia to honor the agreement
02:57with the UN, that if the people voted for independence, they would comply with it.
03:04And they did.
03:05They vacated the territory.
03:08Of course, the violence erupted by totally in a chaotic situation.
03:18In any case, it was a miracle that happened, an impossible dream that we were told, you
03:27know, independence was not realistic, it was a dream, it was a fantasy, but it did happen.
03:35And we thank the international community.
03:38We thank InterFed, Australia, United States, Portugal, New Zealand took very active part
03:45as well for making possible the international security force that came in and ended the
03:56violence perpetrated by the militia gangs.
03:59You say the independence was a miracle, but it was due in a large part to the advocacy
04:06and the work that you and others had done over the decades.
04:11How intensely did you feel that pressure at that moment to get that international support
04:18for it, considering how bad the violence was in East Timor?
04:25Absolutely, at that time, I was alone in New York.
04:30It happened on a weekend.
04:33I was in the home of friends, I used their home, these are all good friends of mine.
04:41I was constantly on the phone, between a mobile phone and a fixed line phone, calling many
04:51different media people, being in touch with the ground in Timor-Leste, being in touch
04:57with Shanana in Jakarta.
04:59He had been freed from prison, but still under house arrest at that point.
05:07But he was the person who I credit the most for making the referendum possible, for ending
05:16the violence.
05:17Because if Shanana had not been a cool-headed leader in those years, with the violence that
05:27happened already starting in January, February 1999, he would have said, there are no conditions
05:37for the referendum, we must postpone.
05:41Shanana said, we must continue.
05:44Then the agreement was signed in May, violence escalated.
05:48Shanana said, we must continue, because the UN and the Portuguese and others were worried,
05:54and they were considering cancelling and postponing the referendum.
05:59Shanana said, no, no, no, we must not miss this window of opportunity.
06:05And then it was Shanana who ordered our fighters into a cantonment.
06:12So when the violence happened, our forces were not involved.
06:18They were not accused of being involved, because they were in complete cantonment with
06:23their weapons.
06:25So Shanana was the brilliant strategist that made possible everything.
06:33Otherwise there would be no interference.
06:35We would not be celebrating today.
06:38So he showed great restraint, you say.
06:40So what was the feeling when the Australian troops arrived on the ground there 25 years
06:46ago after that terrible violence?
06:51That was absolutely wonderful, wonderful news.
06:55People were desperate up in the hills around Delhi.
07:01Many had lost hope that there would be international intervention.
07:06And then when the ships began to appear in the horizon, and the planes began to head
07:13in towards Delhi, there was a lot of shouting of festivities in the mountains, in the bush
07:20around Delhi.
07:22It was a miracle.
07:24And we remain forever grateful for that moment, forever grateful to the international community,
07:32Australia, New Zealand, and many others, the Portuguese, the Europeans, the U.S., and President
07:40Bill Clinton.
07:41He was absolutely critical, crucial, his decision in that.
07:47Bill Clinton was always sympathetic to Timur.
07:49As soon as he was elected in 92, 93, he showed his sympathy.
07:56But he had to handle all the conflicting pressures in the policymaking in Washington.
08:03So we thank, but primarily we bow to the tenacity of our own people, the sacrifices
08:13people accepted for freedom.
08:17And I praise the Indonesian side, because it was not easy for them.
08:23It was some sort of humiliation that we voted against staying with Indonesia.
08:32And they honored the agreement.
08:34They could not control the militias, but they vacated the territory.
08:40And so, and it was the Indonesian military, the TNI, that made possible Indonesia on transition
08:46to democracy.
08:48They could have stopped everything.
08:49They could have stopped the referendum, or not accepting the result.
08:54They could have stopped democracy movement in Indonesia, but they didn't.
08:59So today, in retrospect, in spite of the 24 years of conflict, we have also to thank
09:07the TNI for when the critical time came to leave, they did what is honorable, and they
09:16left the territory.
09:19And just how important, I'm coming from an Australian perspective, you mentioned many
09:22nations there, but because I'm in Australia, I'll point out Australia.
09:27Just how important was Australia's contribution to the future of your nation by sending those
09:33troops in?
09:34Well, A, in terms of public opinion, Australian public, Australian people, I have said it
09:42many times, Australian people are very unique, very special.
09:48The Australian people, whom I know, always sympathetic to the underdog, because Australia's
09:54own history of, under the British, the Australians were sent to fight and die in wars that they
10:06didn't know about, and they always fought with bravery.
10:11And you, when the Indonesians themselves fought for independence against the Dutch, Australian
10:16dog workers were the first to initiate boycott movement against Dutch interests.
10:23So Australians are very sympathetic to Timor-Leste, not only because of World War II, the loyalty
10:30of the Timorese to the Australians, but also because Australians by very natural, very,
10:36I say, always very instinctively in support of the weak, of justice.
10:43And then, of course, the Australian political elites, Australian leaders, went along and
10:50listened to the voice of the Australian public.
10:53And Prime Minister John Howard spoke with Bill Clinton, also put pressure on Bill Clinton
11:00for United States to make the decision to support in the UN Security Council the deployment
11:09of an international force for Timor-Leste.
11:12Without Australia's involvement, Australian leadership, I cannot imagine the interfact
11:18happening.
11:21And President Ramasweta, looking back over the many decades of your advocacy and the
11:28struggles of the East Timorese people, how do you see where your country has progressed
11:35to over the last 25 years, and after all the bloodshed and the struggle that was put
11:44in to get you there?
11:46Well, I have to say with a great degree of satisfaction, 25 years after the referendum,
11:5522 years after independence, the figures in the country speak for themselves.
12:03In 2002, life expectancy of eight Timorese would be only less than 50 years, less than
12:1260 years.
12:13Today is close to 70.
12:17So we made 10 years.
12:19We gained 10 years in life expectancy.
12:21In 2002, we had one PhD.
12:26Now we have over 100 who got PhDs in some of the best universities around the world.
12:32In 2002, we had only 19 medical doctors.
12:36Today we have 1,200 medical doctors.
12:40In 2002, there was hardly electricity anywhere in Timor, a bit in Dili, but very precarious.
12:48Today, electricity covers 97% of the territory.
12:53So tremendous progress, but still with failings, poverty is too high, child malnutrition unacceptably
13:04high.
13:06On the other hand, at the same time, when we look back in terms of freedom, democracy,
13:16well, Timor-Leste is rated number 10 in the world in terms of media freedom by the Reporters
13:24Without Borders based in Brussels.
13:27We rate better than Australia, UK, US, France, Germany in terms of media freedom.
13:34We are number 10.
13:37No third world country is even belong to the group of the first 20.
13:44In terms of democracy, we are rated one of the best performing democracies in Asia, the
13:50best in Southeast Asia.
13:52So for those who wish to see with critical eye, but balanced, they would know, they would
14:00see that Timor-Leste has made tremendous progress in only 22 years, starting from below zero.
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