Last month, Rep. Scott Fitzgerald (R-WI) delivered remarks on bail reform during a House Judiciary Committee hearing.
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NewsTranscript
00:00pursuant to notice, I call up H.R. 2833, the Pre-Trial Release Reporting Act, for purposes
00:05of markup, and move the committee report it favorably to the House.
00:08The clerk will report the bill.
00:09H.R. 2833.
00:10Without objection, the bill will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point.
00:14The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Fitzgerald, for an opening
00:18statement.
00:19Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:20On November 5th, 2021, Darryl Brooks Jr. was arrested and charged with felony reckless
00:25endangerment after running his girlfriend over with his car in a gas station parking
00:30lot.
00:31On November 16th, 2021, Mr. Brooks was released from the custody of the Milwaukee County Sheriff's
00:36Office on a $1,000 bond.
00:40Five days later, on November 21st, 2021, Darryl Brooks drove his SUV through the annual Waukesha
00:46Christmas Parade, injuring over 50 individuals and killing 6, including an 8-year-old child.
00:54I wish that cases like these were rare, but unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, we're seeing
00:59them all too frequently.
01:01That's because liberal cities and rogue state prosecutors are seeking to limit or altogether
01:06abolish the use of cash bail.
01:08For example, after New York passed its bail reform law, recidivism rates increased for
01:13individuals who had previously violent felony offenses.
01:18A March 2023 study by researchers at John Jay College of Criminal Justice found that
01:24approximately 72% of violent felony offenders who were released without bail were rearrested.
01:31Similarly, in January 2023, the state of Illinois began implementing its quote, safety law,
01:39which stripped judges of their ability to set cash bail and require prosecutors to provide
01:43evidence within 48 hours that provided the offender committed a crime that posed a quote,
01:49significant threat to public safety, unquote.
01:53While it's still too early to know the full impact of this law, counties across the state,
01:58such as McHenry County, are already reporting an increase in those charged with subsequent
02:03felony offenses.
02:04Meanwhile, the city of Chicago was awarded more than $2.6 million in burn JAG grants
02:10in 2023 to support Illinois reckless bail policies.
02:15The Bureau of Justice Statistics, which is tasked with collecting, analyzing, and publishing
02:20information on crime, criminal offenders, and the operation of our justice system at
02:25all levels of government, have previously reported pretrial release of felony defendants
02:31in state courts through its National Pretrial Reporting Program, or NPRP.
02:38The most recent NPRP report is from 2007, so it's rather dated, but it did evaluate
02:46pretrial release statistics between 1990 and 1994.
02:51I think we can all agree it's time we received updated reported data.
02:56That's why I introduced H.R. 2533, the Pretrial Release Reporting Act, which would task the
03:01Bureau of Justice Statistics to report on individuals charged with violent felony offenses
03:07who are subsequently released on bail or obtain pretrial release.
03:13I hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle would agree that this data would
03:17be helpful in informing Congress of how state and local prosecutorial decisions are impacting
03:23the safety of their communities and would hopefully prevent future tragedies like the
03:27one that occurred in Waukesha.
03:29I urge a yes vote on this bill and I yield balance of my time.
03:38Gentleman yields back.
03:40Gentleman from Georgia for an opening statement is recognized.
03:43Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
03:46Masquerading as a purportedly harmless reporting bill, H.R. 2833 is actually just another baseless
03:55attempt by my Republican colleagues to engage in fear-mongering about crime despite historic
04:02drops in violent crime in cities across the country.
04:07Their target this time is bail reform.
04:10The premise underlying this bill, that bail reform in cities with so-called progressive
04:17prosecutors has created a dramatic ongoing increase in violent crime, is simply not true.
04:24It's wrong.
04:28As if that weren't bad enough in trying to justify their false premise, the bill requires
04:35but does not fund a report that would be simply impossible to complete, certainly not within
04:41the 180 days given, much less every year thereafter.
04:48Let's start with the supposed justification for this bill.
04:51It rests on the outdated and completely disproven notion that violent crime is on the rise and
04:58that bail reform is somehow to blame.
05:02But this simply is not true.
05:04With the onset of the pandemic, increases in crime were felt in communities of all sizes,
05:10political alignments, and demographics, and in states that enacted bail reform policies,
05:18and just as much or more in states that did not.
05:22And murder rates have been higher in red states than in blue states in every year in this century.
05:29More importantly, the statistics conclusively show that violent crime has been falling dramatically
05:36for more than two years under the Biden administration, even in states that changed the way they look
05:43at bail and pretrial release.
05:47Although the majority would like to pretend otherwise, crime rates began to drop in 2022,
05:54while 2023 featured one of the lowest crime rates in more than 50 years.
06:00And crime rates continue to fall even further in 2024.
06:04Despite what our Republican colleagues want Americans to believe, the evidence fails to
06:11show any causal connection between bail reform and crime.
06:16However, cash bail has resulted in a dramatic rise in the number of defendants who are detained
06:23pending trial, resulting in tremendous financial and social costs to defendants, their families,
06:30their communities, and taxpayers who bear the cost of incarcerating nearly 450,000 people
06:38each year who have yet to be convicted of a crime.
06:42It's not surprising that the burdens of pretrial detention fall disproportionately on communities
06:48of color and on women as well.
06:52As a result of the growing body of research demonstrating the ineffectiveness and inequities
06:59of the cash bail or fixed bail system, a number of states and local jurisdictions have made
07:06efforts to reform their bail practices in recent years, and the data show that bail
07:11reform has not led to an increase in crime or recidivism rates.
07:17In the state of New York, which instituted bail reform at the beginning of 2020, fixed
07:23bail is still used for violent felonies, but for misdemeanors and nonviolent felonies,
07:31defendants are released on their own recognizance or under individualized, tailored conditions
07:38designed to ensure their appearance in court.
07:41Three separate studies have shown that while crime rates in New York did increase in 2020,
07:47as they did throughout the country, bail reform was not a driver of that increase.
07:54One study found that eliminating bail for misdemeanors and nonviolent felonies in New
07:59York actually reduced re-arrest rates.
08:03And of course, in New York, as in the rest of the country, crime has been declining precipitously.
08:11The other fundamental problem with this bill is that it imposes an onerous reporting requirement
08:17that the Bureau of Justice Statistics, or BJS, will not be able to meet.
08:24The bill would require BJS to obtain data from all state courts in the country without
08:31defining that term and without recognizing that much of the data that the bill would
08:36require BJS to collect is not housed in one central location.
08:42To truly fulfill this mandate, BJS would have to go to courts, as well as jails and multiple
08:48pretrial service agencies in every single jurisdiction in the country to collect the
08:54data.
08:55This would be nearly impossible without a massive infusion of resources that this bill
09:01does not provide.
09:03And such a report is not necessary because it is entirely duplicative.
09:08As recognized in the findings of this bill, BJS awarded a grant of $2 million to the Research
09:15Triangle Institute in 2020 to conduct a study of pretrial release through the National Pretrial
09:23Reporting Program, which BJS first initiated in 1988.
09:30Although the study was slowed down for years by the pandemic, it is still underway and
09:35BJS anticipates that it will be completed by the end of this year.
09:40Rather than imposing an impossible annual burden on BJS without appropriating a single
09:47dollar to fund that burden, we should wait for the completion of this ongoing work.
09:54Of course, if my colleagues across the aisle really wanted to address violent crime, they
09:59could invest in community violence intervention, fully fund the ATF, enact common sense gun
10:07legislation and provide targeted support to law enforcement.
10:13Democrats have consistently supported such efforts while Republicans have repeatedly
10:18blocked and tried to defund them.
10:21Although I am typically inclined to support reporting bills, as are many of my colleagues,
10:27I simply cannot support this legislation.
10:31Rather than gathering new data and useful data, it creates an unfunded mandate with
10:37which BJS cannot possibly comply to launch a misguided attack on bail reform.
10:44It's disappointing that Republicans would rather demagogue on the issue of crime than
10:51work with Democrats on solutions that would truly make our communities safer.
10:56With that, I yield back.
10:57The gentleman yields back without objection.
10:58All of the opening statements will be included in the record.
11:01The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin for the purpose of offering an amendment
11:04in the nature of a substitute.
11:05Yeah, Mr. Chairman, I do have an amendment at the desk.
11:08Clerk will report the amendment.
11:09Amendment in the nature of a substitute.
11:11Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute will be considered as read
11:14and shall be considered base text for the purpose of the amendment.
11:16The chair recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin to explain the amendment.
11:20Well, Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, the last report that was produced
11:24by the National Pretrial Reporting Program, it does rely on data that's over 20 years
11:30old.
11:31So we should not be relying on the outdated statistics to guide the committee's oversight
11:38of the federal funds, like the Berne JAG, which I talked about earlier.
11:44So this amendment is in the nature of a substitute would make to report annual, giving Congress
11:52up-to-date statistics on how state and local prosecutorial decisions are impacting the
11:57safety of our communities.
11:59This is really the only substantial change, but I do believe that it would respond to
12:06some of the concerns that I heard from the other side of the aisle.
12:09So I urge the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute, and I yield back.
12:13Gentleman yields back.
12:14Gentleman, gentle lady from California, and I'll come to the gentleman from Maryland.
12:19I move to strike the last word.
12:21I just want to, first, thank Mr. Johnson for his very cogent remarks.
12:28I think he laid out quite accurately the statistics, potentially the motive for the bill.
12:36Really there is no there there, but I thought it was important to note that the Bureau of
12:44Justice Statistics is actually going to complete their report on this very subject by the end
12:50of this year, and so this bill is completely unnecessary.
12:57I would note also that there was some analysis done by the department, an advisory that went
13:07through some issues that I think that this bill does not accommodate.
13:15For example, to collect the information relevant to pretrial release decisions, you need more
13:22data than is generally available.
13:25For example, how do you distinguish between pretrial release programs and those that are
13:33released because of limited budget or by court order for jail overcrowding versus pretrial
13:40risk assessment?
13:42That information just can't be collected, and unfortunately, this bill has the same
13:49problem.
13:50I, you know, honestly, since this bill is never going to become law, you know, I don't
13:57think it matters whether we vote yes or no.
14:00I certainly want to get the information that we will get by the end of this year from the
14:06Bureau of Justice Statistics.
14:09Unfortunately, every Democrat on this committee is looking forward to getting that accurate
14:14data by the end of this year, and so I really, it's disappointing that this bill is being
14:21considered today.
14:22Perhaps the committee was not aware of the deadline that has been promised and the new
14:27information that we will have by the end of this calendar year, so I, you know, maybe
14:35I'll vote for this bill.
14:36It really doesn't matter whether you vote yes or no because this bill is never going
14:40to become law, and actually, the information is going to become known to this committee
14:46and the world by the end of the year by the Department of Justice, so I just wanted to
14:52note that and also to, once again, thank Mr. Johnson for outlining the facts, which is
14:59the various scare rhetoric about crime is really misplaced.
15:05Crime is falling across the United States, and there is some of the overheated rhetoric
15:12around the country is really misplaced, and an effort, I think, to alarm people.
15:18Obviously, there is some level of crime in every community, in every country, and we
15:24are not immune from that, but to spin that unfortunate fact into an emergency that is
15:33beyond background is inappropriate and, I think, not a service to the public that should
15:40be not scared beyond the facts and the truth, so with that, I just wanted to lay that out
15:48that we will have this information by the end of this year.
15:52It will be accurate information, and this bill is completely unnecessary, and I don't
15:57know if Mr. Johnson has additional comments or Mr. Ivey, the gentleman from Maryland,
16:02I'd be happy to yield.
16:06I'd yield to Mr. Johnson.
16:08Thank you.
16:09I would, Madam Chair, thank you for, Madam Lofgren, thank you for yielding.
16:13I would like, for the record, to ask for unanimous consent to enter the following documents.
16:21One is a 2013 report of the National Pretrial Reporting Program, which demonstrates that
16:27contrary to what is stated in this bill, the last NPR report was not in 2007.
16:36And also, documents submitted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics to the Office of Management
16:42and Budget in support of BJS's information collection requests for the currently ongoing
16:49National Pretrial Reporting Program study.
16:52Without objection.
16:53With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
16:55The gentlelady yields back.
16:56The gentleman from Maryland is recognized.
16:59Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17:00You know, I share the concerns that have been raised already.
17:03I just wanted to point out a few more as we go forward.
17:08The point that was made earlier about a study that is due, this may be what's referenced,
17:15ironically, on page two of the bill, which references 2020, the National Pretrial Reporting
17:25Program of the Bureau of Justice Statistics awarded a grant of $2 million.
17:31So that may be what the report that's forthcoming.
17:36It's a little ironic that, you know, we're going to have a legislation that's going to
17:39require the use of that money to do what's already in the pipeline to get done.
17:46And there ought to be some kind of coordination with respect to that.
17:51Because these are heavy, unfunded mandates.
17:54I was the local prosecutor in Prince George's County, which is just under a million people.
18:00And so we have a sizable apparatus there.
18:04And the Maryland state courts have a pretty large apparatus, too, as far as data collection.
18:10But I don't think even we get that granular.
18:12And I would think that there'd be many states, local prosecutors' offices, local police officers,
18:19police departments, and states that just don't have the apparatus in place to correct,
18:25to collect all of this information without getting significant funding to do it.
18:32You know, and so I think we should, if we're going to request this information at this
18:37scale, especially with what I think is an impossible turnaround of 180 days, this is
18:43a very massive request for data.
18:47Turning that around in six months, I think, is unrealistic.
18:51And if we are going to really seek to do that, I think we should probably try and figure
18:57out what kind of funding would be needed.
18:59My thought would also be to reach out to state and local law enforcement and ask them what
19:06they might need to try and produce this kind of information.
19:09Are they able to do it under, you know, which states, which counties, which jurisdictions
19:13are able to produce it, you know, in their current circumstances?
19:17Which ones are going to need help?
19:18Because if they're going to need help, I think it's incumbent on us to help provide it if
19:24it's information that we want to get.
19:26And then, you know, with respect to the drafting of this, and this isn't uncommon in these
19:32kinds of criminal provisions, but I don't see this reference to other provisions that
19:38have tried to address this issue.
19:40And that goes to the issue that states define particular offenses in different ways.
19:46And so, you know, rape or attempted rape, you know, in some states, they don't use those
19:53terms.
19:54They have sexual assault.
19:55I see sexual abuse there, but some states don't define it in that way.
19:59In fact, the abuse term is frequently used for child abuse, which isn't mentioned in
20:04here, I don't think, as one of the things we would want to track.
20:07But from my perspective, child abuse, especially violent child abuse, would certainly be one
20:13of the things we'd want to know about and track for these kinds of things.
20:18Because if you have a serial child abuser, and we're trying to figure out whether these
20:23people are getting pretrial release or, you know, breaks on detention or not, that's inappropriate,
20:29isn't that the kind of information we'd want?
20:31I would think so.
20:33Resisting or obstructing an officer is another one.
20:37Sure, let's track that, but different states define it different ways.
20:41And some of them would say, like, rather than resisting or obstructing an officer, assaulting
20:46an officer, especially if it's a violent assault, which might not be captured, depending on
20:51the state you're in, by resisting or obstructing.
20:53I think under the federal law, as a matter of fact, resisting or obstructing is different
20:58statutorily than assaulting a police officer.
21:02But again, I think assault, we would want to know if people are assaulting police officers
21:07and they're getting out, you know, faster than they should or they're not getting bail,
21:11whatever that is, definitely the type of information I would think that we'd want to know and collect
21:16under these sorts of circumstances.
21:19Recklessly endangering safety.
21:21I mean, I don't know for sure what that means, but that's another one of those types of provisions.
21:27I mean, Maryland's got reckless endangerment.
21:30Is that what's included here?
21:32Could be a scenario where it's violent, could be a scenario where it's not, but, you know,
21:36the Bail Reform Act, for example, which touches on, I think, the issues you're trying to get
21:42at here, at least at the federal level, has gone through the process of going, of making
21:47these definitions applicable and giving guidance on how to apply them.
21:52It would seem to me that we'd want to tap into that so that we don't run into the same
21:56problems that they had and try and reinvent the wheel.
22:00Oh, and the term violent, by the way, is also another one that needs to be defined.
22:05For example, some provisions say drug dealing is a violent offense.
22:10So I would say if we want to do this, and collecting data, I think, is useful and important,
22:16I wouldn't necessarily oppose it, but let's not reinvent the wheel.
22:20Let's try and do it in a way that is going to work and doesn't impose unfair mandates
22:25and unfunded mandates on state and local law enforcement.
22:29That I yield back.
22:30Gentleman yields back.
22:31Gentleman from Wisconsin is recognized.
22:35I'm sensitive to some of the comments that were just made.
22:38I guess what I would first say is I'd love to work, and we have been working with members
22:45of the Senate to develop a strategy that's going to result in something more than what
22:51BJS has been working on since 2020.
22:54They spent about $3 million already, and we have no idea what's going to be turned
23:00out at the end of the year.
23:02So that would be my first response.
23:04The second is, you know, I didn't dream up this bill.
23:07This came from prosecutors.
23:09It came from those involved in law enforcement who right now are saying there's such a patchwork,
23:15not just in the 72 counties within my state of Wisconsin, on the difference between what's
23:21being prosecuted and the types of crimes that are being prosecuted, or those that
23:26are being, you know, at the end of the day kind of dismissed as not serious crimes.
23:32I mean, they're asking for consistency, and they need a national strategy, and I'm not
23:40a big proponent of that all the time, but I think they're asking for a national strategy
23:45on coming up with this data versus kind of a patchwork.
23:50And, you know, I think that's why the bill certainly, you know, could be, you know, there
23:57could be changes made.
23:59I'm not necessarily hung up on some of the definitions that Congressman Viney just brought
24:04up.
24:05I think, you know, the same thing.
24:07I think there is some wiggle room on some of that stuff as well.
24:12But the point is, we need to get something going now, because what we're seeing is that
24:17this is absolutely hampering prosecutors' abilities and public defenders throughout
24:23the nation to try and understand what is going out there on the street, and how should they
24:28be dealing with those situations.
24:30So I think there's no better time to bring this bill forward, not just because of some
24:35of the recent high-profile incidents that have happened nationwide on this front that
24:39you could characterize as, well, there's an inconsistency, you know, that's simply as
24:44fine as the county line, you know?
24:47It doesn't make much sense right now.
24:49That's why I think the report makes sense.
24:50And quite honestly, I'm not looking for anything of great substance that's going to come out
24:55at the end of the year, unfortunately, with a lot of money that's been spent and with,
25:01you know, three years down the tube.
25:03So I would yield back.
25:04Would the gentleman—
25:05The gentleman yields back.
25:06I'll claim time and yield to the gentleman from Maryland.
25:09I would just say this, and, you know, we're working together on legislation, I think in
25:14good faith, and trying to figure out not this particular provision, but, you know, if the
25:18gentleman—if you'd want to withdraw it, or, you know, we could try and work together
25:22and figure out how to fix it and move it forward, I'd be more than happy to try and work with
25:27you on that.
25:28And also, I mean, I share your—I don't know what we're going to get out of the bill, out
25:33of the report that's being done, and I think Mr. Johnson pointed out that there was a huge
25:38overlap with respect to COVID that would have a huge impact and distortion effect on
25:45this report during those years.
25:48But I'd be more than happy to work with the gentleman to try and figure it out, because
25:50I think this is information that could be useful if we go about getting it in the right
25:55way.
25:56And with that, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25:57I yield back to you.
25:58The gentleman yields back.
26:00I yield back.
26:01The question occurs on the amendment in the nature of a substitute—on adoption of the
26:10amendment in the nature of a substitute.
26:11This will be followed immediately by a vote on reporting the bill.
26:14All those in favor say aye.
26:15Aye.
26:16Those opposed, no.
26:17No.
26:18In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it, and the amendment in the nature of a substitute
26:20is adopted, the reporting quorum being present.
26:23The question is now on favorably reporting the bill as amended.
26:27All those in favor say aye.
26:29Those opposed, no.
26:30No.
26:32The ayes have it, and the bill is ordered to be reported favorably to the House.
26:34Members will have two days to submit views.
26:37I'd request a recorded vote.
26:39Recorded vote is requested by the gentleman from Georgia.
26:42The clerk will call the roll.