BREAKING NEWS: Jim Jordan Leads Weaponization Committee Hearing To Probe ATF Overreach

4 months ago

The House Weaponization of the Federal Government Committee holds a hearing to probe alleged overreach by the ATF.

Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:

https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript

Stay Connected
Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes
More From Forbes: http://forbes.com

Transcript

00:00:00 of the ATF. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from North Dakota to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:00:07 Thank the gentleman from North Dakota

00:00:29 Without objection the gentleman from Arkansas Mr. Hill will be permitted to participate in today's hearing for the purposes of introducing a witness

00:00:36 Which we'll get to in just a few minutes the chair now recognizes himself for an opening statement in June

00:00:40 2021 just a few months after taking office

00:00:43 President Biden directed the Justice Department to adopt a zero tolerance policy to revoke firearms

00:00:49 Excuse me federal firearms licenses from those who committed quote willful

00:00:53 Violations of the law that same month ATF updated its internal best practices guide to state quote

00:00:59 ATF will absent extraordinary circumstances

00:01:03 Initiate proceedings to revoke the license of any dealer that has committed a willful regulatory violation of the gun control act for specified

00:01:10 violations close quote

00:01:12 These willful violations now include purposefully broad

00:01:16 classifications like quote falsifying documents and failing to maintain records needed for successful firearms tracing and would essentially allow the

00:01:23 ATF to revoke the licenses of FFL's for simple technical and non material paperwork violations

00:01:30 And ATF is zealously doing just that the year after the zero tone tolerance policy went into effect

00:01:36 ATF revoked over 90 licenses more than any year since 2006

00:01:41 Last year that number jumped to a hundred and fifty seven FFL revocations

00:01:46 The year before zero tolerance went into effect. There were just 40 revocations

00:01:52 To be sure the gun control act authorizes the ATF to inspect FFL's to ensure they are compliant

00:01:58 With record-keeping requirements and all other applicable laws and regulations

00:02:03 But that is so the government can ensure that there are no illegal firearms transfers occurring not for revoking licenses

00:02:10 for simple paperwork violations

00:02:12 We've talked to some of the affected FFL's we've even talked to some who beat the ATF in court and were able to keep their license

00:02:21 They told us it cost over a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in fees to keep their license

00:02:26 There's no way the average small business can afford that much in legal and consulting fees and ATF knows this

00:02:32 And the data shows this brazen scheme is working the number of voluntary business closures post inspection

00:02:39 Has risen sharply from 24 in

00:02:42 2021 to 69 in 2022 and to 80 last year

00:02:49 This is exactly what the left wants

00:02:51 Democrats and Joe Biden have been trying to take guns away from Americans for years if they can't take the FFL's away

00:02:57 They are going to limit the number if they can't take the guns away

00:03:00 They're going to limit the number of places where law-abiding Americans can go purchase their firearms

00:03:05 Today, we'll examine the actions by ATF that led to the untimely and

00:03:10 unnecessary death of Brian

00:03:13 Malinowski at this time. I want to offer my condolences to the members of mr

00:03:17 Malinowski's family some of them are here with us today. We're also joined by congressman Hill who I mentioned earlier who represents mr

00:03:24 Malinowski's and his family and has sought justice on their behalf in the early morning hours of March 19th

00:03:30 2024 armed ATF agents arrived at the Malinowski family home in at least 10 vehicles to execute a search warrant

00:03:38 According to the warrant the ATF alleged that mr. Malinowski was selling firearms without a license

00:03:45 footage from the Malinowski's doorbell camera shows ATF agents approaching the house with riot shields and

00:03:51 subsequently disabling the camera to prevent

00:03:54 their conduct from being recorded

00:03:57 Upon hearing the commotion and fearful of a home intrusion. Mr. Malinowski awoke and prepared to defend his family

00:04:05 Mr. Malinowski encountered what he and his wife to believe to be home intruders an exchange of gunfire ensued. Mr

00:04:12 Malinowski was shot in the head

00:04:14 And he died from his wounds two days later

00:04:16 The circumstances of mr. Malinowski's death raised questions about whether the ATF followed proper protocol during the execution of this search warrant

00:04:24 DOJ policy and President Biden's executive order

00:04:27 14074 requires ATF agents including those who conducted the search warrant on the Malinowski family home

00:04:35 to wear active body worn cameras during the execution of that warrant

00:04:40 The department however has since confirmed to the Malinowski family that ATF agents were not wearing

00:04:46 were not wearing body cameras during the raid a clear violation of the department policy

00:04:51 It is also unclear whether ATF agents complied with Justice Department policy on no knock entries

00:04:57 In explaining the rationale for this policy deputy attorney general Lisa Monaco noted that

00:05:03 Quote because of the risk posed to both law enforcement and civilians

00:05:08 During the execution of no knock warrants. It is important that this is sort of this authority be exercised in only the most compelling circumstances

00:05:16 Furthermore miss Monaco directed the use of no knock entries should be restricted to instances in which an agent has reasonable grounds

00:05:24 To believe that at the time of the warrant that the warrant is sought that knocking and announcing the agents presence

00:05:30 Would create an imminent threat of physical violence to the agent or to another person

00:05:35 It's not clear if the raid was a no knock encounter because in part the ATF agents disabled the Malinowski's home camera

00:05:42 ATF is yet to explain why it resorted to a risky pre-drawn entry of mr.

00:05:48 Malinowski's home when it could have peacefully executed the warrant while he was away from his residence

00:05:53 I'm guess it's a huge question, but the ATF wanted mr. Malinowski to be home when they executed the search warrant

00:05:59 We know ATF abandoned a previous attempt to execute the search warrant when they learned mr. Malinowski wasn't home

00:06:05 They were actually primed and ready to go the week before

00:06:07 But didn't go because he wasn't there

00:06:09 Why did they why did they need him to be in the home as this was a search warrant and not an arrest warrant in?

00:06:15 Fact there were numerous other dangerous options of less dangerous options available to the ATF

00:06:20 The ATF knew his pattern of life. They could have chosen to wait for mr. Malinowski to leave for work and

00:06:26 Safely approached him after he had exited his home

00:06:28 The ATF could have conducted the rate after mr.

00:06:31 Malinowski left for work and had other agents meet him at his work where he was not allowed to carry a firearm

00:06:36 The ATF could have waited until he was gone and asked mrs. Malinowski to call him back after the house was secure

00:06:42 ATF agents could have agents could have given mr.

00:06:46 Malinowski more time to answer the door during the knock and announce so he knew it was the police

00:06:51 Since the ATF chose to ignore their own policy not wear body cameras

00:06:55 We will never know if they gave him the 10 seconds or 60 seconds or whatever to answer the door

00:07:01 And tomorrow front of the full Judiciary Committee director Dettelbach will have a chance to explain the actions of the ATF

00:07:08 But today we look forward to hearing from our witnesses

00:07:10 I want to thank them all for being here and I now yield back and now recognize the ranking member for an opening statement

00:07:16 Thank you to the chairman good morning

00:07:20 And thank you to the witnesses and the others that are here and joining us at this hearing

00:07:26 Last week after Trump insider and convicted criminal Steve Bannon

00:07:31 Demanded that Chairman Jordan do more to protect Donald Trump and this committee answered the call

00:07:38 It's no accident that last week

00:07:40 This committee called as witness a former defense attorney for Donald Trump in the classified documents case

00:07:49 Rudy Giuliani's former lawyer and the attorney who has written and filed

00:07:53 Chairman Jordan's amicus briefs to the Supreme Court to support Donald Trump's many indictments

00:07:59 Republicans rolled their eyes and snickered when I noted as the ranking Democrat on the subcommittee

00:08:05 That the plain goal of that hearing was to influence the New York hush money trial

00:08:10 against Donald Trump

00:08:12 Just so the public is clear how closely this committee is trying to link

00:08:17 Donald J. Trump's criminal and civil matters and use this committee to act as outside

00:08:22 defense special counsel two days ago Robert Costello a

00:08:27 Republican witness from last week's hearing was called by Donald Trump as a witness for the defense in that very trial and

00:08:35 Used his same

00:08:37 manic rambling testimony that he gave in this subcommittee

00:08:41 Thankfully now maybe the chairman and GOP members won't continue to be blasted by Fox News and other

00:08:49 Maga news outlet and blogs for not doing enough with the committee to support the former president

00:08:54 Costello got to try out his testimony

00:08:57 Defense counsel thought it was a good enough to appear as a witness on the stand last week

00:09:02 I know the American people don't believe that this is an appropriate use of the 20 million dollars

00:09:08 allocated to this committee

00:09:10 Holding six full hearings to bolster disproven lies that the government is colluding with social media companies to target

00:09:18 conservatives

00:09:19 calling in an anti-semitic anti-vax

00:09:21 racist conspiracy theorists who claims a worm a part of his brain as a witness

00:09:27 Others just spread the widely debunked fringe claims about the deep state or have personnel grievances

00:09:35 From appropriate firing from their former employers that the committee offers them time to air here

00:09:40 This is what Republicans have made of the committee process

00:09:44 But I guess it goes along with their inability to effectively legislate in this Congress as well

00:09:51 You know people often wonder with my courtroom litigation background having been

00:09:56 prosecuting assistant district attorney if I enjoy these hearings

00:10:02 I have to tell you every time I get a notice of a hearing for this committee

00:10:06 my stomach hurts

00:10:09 Because I'm disturbed by the use of this legislative time to prop up a failed individual

00:10:15 one individual

00:10:18 loser in elections a

00:10:20 disastrous dictatorial wannabe in governing a

00:10:23 perennially bankrupt false revenue inflating con artists in business and a cheater in marriage even

00:10:32 That's who the Republicans want us to spend our time on

00:10:34 supporting Donald Trump

00:10:37 rather than the American people

00:10:39 Today we're going a step further

00:10:42 We are somehow having a hearing to protect the gun lobby

00:10:45 To prop up Donald Trump's pro-death agenda when more than 100 Americans die of gun violence every day

00:10:52 We have colleagues who have lost friends classmates mass shooters

00:10:57 Some of us in this Congress see the scourge of illegal guns coming across state and city lines

00:11:02 to ravage communities with gun violence and death abuse

00:11:06 But these deaths happens everywhere haunting every corner of the American experience and without a robust

00:11:14 federal law enforcement an

00:11:16 ATF and FBI

00:11:18 Americans will die at a faster rate

00:11:20 I know that the Virgin Islands my home a federal law enforcement play a critical role in combating

00:11:27 the scourge of drugs and guns

00:11:29 trafficking

00:11:31 Without these agencies or with more guns available to bad people

00:11:35 My region where I live in all of America will be even more dangerous

00:11:40 Families of gun violence victims have their lives ripped apart and turned upside down in a moment

00:11:47 None of that has helped or made less common occurrence when we attack and undermine the ATF and the FBI

00:11:56 Republicans on this committee simply

00:11:58 It's it's not a matter of caring about those mass victims

00:12:02 Families in a Valdi

00:12:06 identified their children by shoes

00:12:08 Because they could not identify them by the faces that they had looked at every day

00:12:14 It's easy to become desensitized in politics, but if that doesn't hurt you

00:12:21 You don't feel anything for that

00:12:25 God help us all

00:12:27 There have already been 27 deaths from school shootings this year alone

00:12:31 Almost 4,000 children and teens are shot and killed every year

00:12:35 15,000 more injured guns are the number one cause of death in children between the age of 1 and 18

00:12:42 the first cause of death guns

00:12:45 car accidents

00:12:47 suffocation drowning poisoning cancer

00:12:51 Number one guns an entirely preventable death if guns were in fact well regulated

00:12:58 Instead of addressing this real problem and instead of listening to three quarters of gun owners

00:13:05 Gun owners three quarters that support common-sense gun safety laws

00:13:10 We're continuing with this

00:13:13 They brought us here right after police week

00:13:16 Confurrence of a mission to defund and dismantle the agency trying to save our children save Americans from gun violence

00:13:24 The ATF is a central agency

00:13:26 Dedicated to stopping the source of gun violence

00:13:29 Its agents ensure the background check laws are followed. They keep guns out of the hands of criminal

00:13:36 They investigate gun crimes. They prevent mass shootings school shootings

00:13:40 They support local law enforcement and gun tracing and enforcement efforts. They do the vital work. We so desperately need

00:13:47 We're gonna hear today about ATF overreach and especially about the death of mr. Malinowski

00:13:56 that is a

00:13:59 Tragic loss of life. Every loss of life is tragic

00:14:02 Our sympathies all of us I believe go out to the family

00:14:08 While an investigation is ongoing into it's inappropriate to be drawing conclusions

00:14:13 before the results of an investigation or release

00:14:17 We do know from affidavits from the court that it was alleged that mr. Malinowski

00:14:23 Was a mass gun trafficker and we know that some of the guns he sold were used to commit crimes

00:14:30 We know that ATF agents were serving a legitimate search warrant

00:14:35 Beyond that we await the results of an investigation and this committee shouldn't seek to influence that

00:14:41 Let's not be mistaken

00:14:45 Republicans are not here today because they're concerned about the tragic loss of life during a police raid

00:14:51 You know why I know that?

00:14:53 Because they have not uttered a word about a Florida deputy shooting and killing

00:14:59 Senior Airman Roger Fortsman in his apartment just a week ago

00:15:04 You know why I know that?

00:15:06 Because they don't say anything

00:15:08 They don't say the name Breonna Taylor who in 2020 was shot and killed in her home

00:15:14 through an

00:15:17 inappropriate police raid

00:15:19 They don't want to talk about the gun violence impact in communities or how the across the country a black American is shot and wounded

00:15:26 every 11 minutes

00:15:30 They don't want to talk about the interstate gun trafficking that's fueling violence in Illinois

00:15:36 We're on an average someone is killed every six hours with a gun and where black individuals are

00:15:42 38 times more likely than white individuals to die by gun homicide

00:15:47 Triple the national average. So while homicides dropped by 13% in Chicago last year

00:15:54 That doesn't mean that people aren't still dying

00:15:57 Those victims deserve to be more than statistics. We don't talk about that. They don't want to talk about that

00:16:04 They don't want to talk about other kinds of police raids. They want to talk about this police raid on

00:16:10 Mr. Malinowski because it fits their narrative about how to dismantle the ATF

00:16:16 That's what this is about

00:16:18 Don't let them fool you

00:16:20 They don't care and

00:16:23 When they do care, it's not about every American

00:16:26 It's only about a specific type of American that they're concerned about those deaths

00:16:30 Because I don't hear those other names being called by them

00:16:34 Miss Samson

00:16:37 Mr. Graham, I want to thank our witnesses for being there today Miss Samson your expertise and vast experience in gun violence

00:16:44 Prevention spaces is truly impressive. I'm confident. It will be invaluable as we examine those issues here today

00:16:53 Sir, Graham. I'd also like to thank you for your more than 37 years of public service at the ATF. I

00:16:59 Guess I will be enlightened as to why you've begun

00:17:06 Getting paid by the very gun lobby fighting ATF's work. I

00:17:10 Want to thank the other witnesses?

00:17:13 I would ask all four of you today in your testimony answers to remember something

00:17:18 As we engage in this hearing in the three or so hours will be sitting here before us

00:17:24 More than a dozen Americans will lose their lives to gun violence

00:17:28 The somber but necessary reminder of the gravity of what we discuss here today and what's really at stake. I

00:17:36 yield back

00:17:38 Generally yields back without objection all the opening statements will be included in the record

00:17:41 I've now recognized the gentleman from Arkansas to introduce one of our witnesses

00:17:46 Thank the chairman. Thank the ranking member for the invitation today to appear before the committee to introduce my constituent my friend Bud Cummins

00:17:53 But Cummins is a prominent Central Arkansas attorney is a former US attorney and former counsel to former governor Mike Huckabee

00:18:01 He's joined today. Mr. Chairman by the widow of Brian Malinowski mayor, and we're glad to have her here to be witness

00:18:09 to this event today

00:18:11 Mr. Cummins is representing the Malinowski family who are still seeking answers from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives

00:18:18 After ATF agents raided their family home in the early hours of March 19th

00:18:24 This pre-dawn raid resulted in deadly shootout in which ATF agents shot and ultimately fatally wounded Brian Malinowski

00:18:32 as I said a friend and constituent of mine in his own home and

00:18:37 Mayor Malinowski is a widow at the hands of gun violence by her own government

00:18:42 Nobody knows more about this case than Bud Cummins

00:18:45 I'm glad he's here to answer the committee's questions and help get answers for the family and the American public

00:18:51 Thank You Chairman Jordan for your leadership and holding this hearing and I hope through your efforts

00:18:56 We can obtain well-deserved answers to what led to the tragic death of Brian Malinowski

00:19:02 Brian's widow, family, and the public deserve a full accounting from the ATF. I thank the chairman and I yield back

00:19:08 I thank the gentleman. I thank you for your work and bringing this this terrible situation to our attention. Thank you very much

00:19:16 We also have Mr. Andrew Graham. Mr. Graham is the founder and CEO of Graham Industry Advisors a veteran-owned consulting firm that advises the firearms

00:19:23 Industry on compliance with the Gun Control Act and the Safe Explosives Act

00:19:27 He previously served as the ATF Deputy Assistant Director of Field Operations and Deputy Assistant Director of Enforcement

00:19:34 Programs and Services

00:19:37 Mr. Ryan Kleckner is an attorney who specializes in federal firearms law and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives

00:19:43 Compliance he previously served our country in the US Army where he was a ranger and sniper instructor

00:19:50 Assigned to the 1st Ranger Battalion. We thank you for that service as well

00:19:54 Ms. Kelly Simpson is the Director of Racial Justice at this and a senior counsel at Brady

00:19:59 Her work focuses on racial justice and reducing gun violence. We welcome our witnesses and thank them for appearing today

00:20:05 We will begin by swearing you in would you please rise and

00:20:08 Raise your right hand

00:20:10 Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is true and

00:20:19 Correct to the best of your knowledge information and beliefs. So help you God

00:20:23 Let the record show that each of the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you. Please be seated

00:20:28 Please know that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety

00:20:32 Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony. We will start with mr. Kleckner and we will move right down the right down the aisle

00:20:39 So, mr. Cluck for your rest recognized for five minutes more or less

00:20:42 Good morning, Chairman Jordan ranking member Plaskett and the members of the subcommittee. I'm Ryan Kleckner

00:20:48 I'm an attorney specializing in federal firearms law and the Bureau of alcohol tobacco firearms and explosives compliance. I

00:20:55 Am actively involved in the firearms industry and I help federal firearms licenses or FFL's to stay compliant with federal laws and ATF rules and regulations

00:21:03 Either through online training at rocket FFL or most recently through free ATF compliance software. I made FFL safe

00:21:11 I'm also a former firearms industry executive a

00:21:16 university lecturer and a special operations sniper

00:21:19 I'm here today because I am concerned with what I see as the overreach of the ATF when it comes to their enforcement actions over

00:21:26 FFL's and the current administration's zero tolerance policy when it comes to licensee inspections

00:21:32 the gun control act of 1968 is the main body of law concerning standard firearms and the federal firearms licensing system and

00:21:40 specifically the GCA allows the ATF to revoke an FFL's license for a

00:21:46 willful violation of the law

00:21:48 Originally the GCA had no such willfulness standard, but Congress in

00:21:52 1986 amended the GCA to specifically include the willfulness requirement

00:21:57 To quote ensure that licenses are not revoked for inadvertent errors or technical mistakes

00:22:04 The Senate notes on that matter referenced rich V us where the ATF was required to reissue a license absent a showing of a willful violation

00:22:14 Because willful at that time was found to mean purposeful intentional behavior

00:22:18 now the addition of willful that standard by Congress is significant because an FFL compliance obligations are largely clerical and

00:22:26 Technical in nature and in some instances a mere typo could be considered a violation of the gun control act

00:22:31 By requiring willfulness Congress clearly raised the standard for evocation to only include situations

00:22:37 By which a licensee purposefully and intentionally violates the law

00:22:42 the administration's current zero tolerance policy flies in the face of Congress's intent and

00:22:47 It's causing harm to otherwise law-abiding FFL's and it's wasting ATF's limited resources. I

00:22:53 have a client

00:22:56 point-blank firearms an

00:22:58 FFL in Michigan that is a perfect example of the harm caused by the zero tolerance policy and overreach by the ATF

00:23:05 The ATF is currently trying to revoke their license based on inspection that started in July 26 of last year and on

00:23:12 April of this year the acting director of industry operations for the Detroit field division provided my client with a notice of revocation

00:23:19 we elected to have a hearing on the matter and have yet to be provided with a date and

00:23:24 My clients the owners of point-blank are here with me now

00:23:27 While their employees are back home unsure about their jobs

00:23:31 And one of the owners a first-generation Arab American also owns a second FFL business with another partner

00:23:38 Who's been not being denied his due process because they have to have their inspection on hold until this inspection is finalized

00:23:45 in this matter

00:23:48 The ATF falsely claimed that my client had 308 missing firearm transaction forms in reality

00:23:54 My client has zero missing forms

00:23:57 Every single one's been located matches the FBI background check numbers and bears the customer signature

00:24:03 The ATF also falsely claimed that they made errors by transferring firearms more than 30 days after the background check

00:24:09 That also is completely untrue. Those are provably transferred the exact same day the background check happened

00:24:17 Now to be fair the ATF inspectors weren't aware of the facts during inspection. However when we presented

00:24:23 All this information and facts to the ATF and asked them to reconsider this revocation. They denied that and are pushing forward

00:24:32 I'm going to share a few facts about my client that are relevant to understand what type of FFL the ATF is spending all this

00:24:37 Time energy and money trying to shut down in over the

00:24:40 12,000 firearms acquired by point-blank

00:24:43 Not a single firearm has ever been lost or stolen

00:24:46 Point-blank has a hundred percent accountability of the 4473 is over 11,000 of them

00:24:51 Point-blank has never transferred a firearm to someone who failed a background check

00:24:55 They've never failed to make submit or keep a multiple sales report and not once in the approximately

00:25:01 300 ATF trace requests have they failed to give timely and accurate information

00:25:05 In summary point-blank has never engaged in any activity even

00:25:09 Accidentally that would have any negative impact on public safety. They take their role very seriously. I

00:25:17 Think ATF's zero tolerance policy is severely misguided and it's wasting ATF's limited resources

00:25:24 And this overzealous policy is harming the ATF's relationship with retailers

00:25:29 ATF should focus its resources on trigger pullers on the street and

00:25:32 Not shutting down honest hard-working and law-abiding gun stores

00:25:35 Thanks for the opportunity to speak today. I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. Mr. Kleckner. Mr. Graham. You're recognized for five minutes

00:25:42 Hit that hit that microphone if you could mr. Graham, so everyone can hear you

00:25:46 Thank you, chairman. Go right morning again Chairman Jordan ranking member Plaskett and distinguished members of the select subcommittee

00:25:53 My name is Andrew Graham, and I appreciate the opportunity today

00:25:57 to appear before you and testify about

00:25:59 An issue which has impacted my career as a former ATF employee as well as them on the truly its own

00:26:06 37 years are proudly served in the Bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms and I am veteran the United States Air Force National Guard as

00:26:14 a deputy assistant director

00:26:16 I served in the capacity over ATF's regulatory enforcement as well as deputy assistant director over there enforcement program

00:26:23 services that is tracing

00:26:26 Etc during this time. I worked alongside

00:26:29 some of the most talented men and women that I've known who've done a yeoman's work and

00:26:34 Providing a safer communities and forcing the laws and regulations to uphold the Constitution. I

00:26:39 Developed strong relationships with our agents our field

00:26:44 Investigators I are better known as I oh eyes as well as directors of industry operations of all 25 field divisions

00:26:52 Some you find it surprising that the agents and the Iowa has developed rapport with FFL's or better known as retailers

00:26:59 but that relationship is critical as FFL's are often the first line of defense and

00:27:04 Linking in keeping firearms out of the hands of prohibited people

00:27:08 they share tips of ATF and suspected unsuspected traffickers and

00:27:14 or potential straw purchasers I

00:27:17 Can tell you from personal experience now as a consultant?

00:27:21 And that members of the firearms industry do not want firearms to go into the wrong hands

00:27:28 And I put a lot of emphasis on that that is a standing do not want firearms to be in the hands of prohibited persons

00:27:34 In fact the firearms industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries

00:27:38 Their firearm retailers spend countless hours ensuring that they're up to speed on current laws and regulations

00:27:46 But FFL's are human and the best of the retailers. They do make mistakes

00:27:52 That was part of my job for 37 years is identifying these errors

00:27:56 working to help that they aren't repeated ensure that the proper training was deployed and

00:28:01 To provide an opportunity for an FFL to get back on track in the summer of 2021

00:28:07 President Biden announced a comprehensive strategy to prevent and respond to gun crimes and ensure public

00:28:13 Public safety which included directing the ATF to revoke federal firearm dealers under a zero tolerance policy

00:28:20 If they violate the law willfully violate on the following counts one transferring a firearm to a prohibited person

00:28:27 To failing to run a background check

00:28:30 Three falsifying records such as transaction forms. Those are the ATF form 4473

00:28:38 Failing to respond to trace requests within 24 hours and lastly refusing to permit ATF to conduct

00:28:44 an on-site inspection during normal business hours

00:28:47 Revocation in a sense is the loss of the federal firearms licensee license and closes the business entirely

00:28:54 So this is a big deal. It's not just the loss of a license, but it's the loss of one's likelihood

00:29:00 As stated by ATF in 2014 when detailing the federal firearms revocation process

00:29:07 Willfulness is not defined by the regulation

00:29:09 But is defined by case law to mean the intentional disregard of a known legal duty or plain indifference of the licensees legal

00:29:17 obligation

00:29:18 In the case of an FFL who has willfully violated the law

00:29:21 As shown an intentional disregard for the legal requirements or is knowingly participated in criminal activity

00:29:29 Revocation may be the only viable option

00:29:32 The problem is the breadth of the zero tolerance policy is much larger than just the rogue gun dealers

00:29:39 It was initially that was supposedly carried out to address with willful violations being redefined in a case-by-case basis

00:29:48 Within numerous enforcement complexities. It strained the relationship between the regulator and the industry

00:29:57 This is putting FFLs who should never have been caught up in this new policy and damaged the cooperative

00:30:02 trust

00:30:04 built between the agency as well as industry members

00:30:07 It's become so rampant that FFLs facing revocations that never would have faced and now

00:30:12 Pressured into shutting down their businesses and depleting funds that they quite frankly don't have

00:30:18 In December of 2022 I made the tough decision to require to retire from civil service and in my time since leaving ATF

00:30:27 I have continued to do what I have enjoyed while I was there with ATF

00:30:31 working with members of the fires and industry to ensure regulatory compliance and

00:30:37 In the event that FFLs aren't snared in this new policy

00:30:40 I helped them to navigate the process to help preserve their livelihood and

00:30:44 Their law-abiding businesses. Thank you for your time. I look forward to answering your questions as well

00:30:50 Thank You. Mr. Graham. Miss Simpson. You're recognized for five minutes

00:30:55 Chairman Jordan, Ranking Member Plaskett and distinguished members of the Select Subcommittee. Thank you for inviting me to testify today

00:31:01 I'm Kelly Sampson, Senior Counsel and Director of Racial Justice at Brady, the oldest national gun violence organization in America

00:31:08 Gun violence is a public health epidemic causing more than 44,000 deaths each year

00:31:14 44,000 deaths and many more who live with injury and trauma

00:31:19 Since 2020 gun violence has been the top cause of death for American children and teens

00:31:24 Which is why thousands of kids and their parents plead for Congress to protect them

00:31:29 Despite our country's love of freedom gun violence is a reason why many Americans no longer feel free to go to school a July 4th parade

00:31:36 the movies, concerts, the grocery store and places of worship

00:31:40 Gun violence is why many of your own

00:31:42 constituents gun owners and non gun owners alike are

00:31:45 Desperate for you and your colleagues to pass common-sense gun laws and ensure those laws are properly implemented

00:31:52 With tens of thousands dead and many more injured Congress should be focused on ending our gun violence epidemic and

00:31:58 Equipping the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or ATF to meet its mandate and to enforce the nation's gun laws

00:32:05 Just days ago Congress celebrated Police Week where members gave countless speeches in support of law enforcement

00:32:11 ATF is not only law enforcement in and of itself, but also a critical ally of state and local law enforcement agencies across the country

00:32:20 ATF is the only federal law enforcement agency which has specific jurisdiction over firearms and gun industry oversight

00:32:26 It should also be noted that guns are the leading cause of death for police officers killed in the line of duty

00:32:31 But guns don't grow in trees. Almost all firearms are sourced from the legal market

00:32:36 Manufactured, imported, distributed and sold by federal firearms licensees or FFLs

00:32:41 Generally manufacturers and importers sell to distributors who sell to dealers who then sell to the public

00:32:48 Dealers are the first line of defense against gun trafficking and most take this responsibility very seriously

00:32:54 In fact, the large majority of gun dealers won't sell a single crime gun in a given year

00:32:59 But a small number of dealers negligent practices filter grunts directly into the criminal market

00:33:05 According to the last available data nearly 70% of crime guns were traced back to just over 1% of licensed dealers

00:33:13 So even though the portion of the gun industry most responsible for supplying crime guns is miniscule ATF nonetheless struggles to meet its mandate

00:33:20 ATF only has the resources to inspect about 8% of active FFLs annually

00:33:26 Falling far short of its own internal goal of inspecting each FFL every three years

00:33:31 To reach that goal ATF would need to more than double its current compliance staff

00:33:36 In fact over 2,000 active gun dealers have gone more than a decade without inspection

00:33:43 ATF struggles to meet its mandates because it's been under resourced and deprived of a confirmed director for decades

00:33:48 Indeed just this year Congress voted to once again reduce ATF's budget despite the gun violence epidemic

00:33:55 These obstructions erode ATF's oversight capacity

00:33:58 forcing hard-working law enforcement agents to regulate a behemoth industry with their arms tied behind their backs and

00:34:05 Undermining ATF doesn't just hinder the agency, but it also harms local law enforcement across the country

00:34:11 ATF plays an essential role in supporting state and local law enforcement nationwide including in your districts

00:34:16 When an incidence of gun violence occurs ATF helps local and state law enforcement partners by generating

00:34:22 Investigative leads and information on guns recovered in crimes by tracing them to their last known retail purchaser

00:34:28 ATF also trains officers to better understand and advance firearms technology

00:34:33 These services strengthen state and local law enforcement providing them with information

00:34:39 Coordination and education necessary to enforce existing laws and prevent future gun crimes

00:34:45 Congress must listen to their constituents and recognize that the American people are begging for gun violence prevention policies

00:34:52 Americans gun owners and non gun owners want to be safe

00:34:56 Federal oversight for the firearm industry does not hinder any law-abiding citizens Second Amendment rights

00:35:02 Instead of attacking ATF you should be building up the agency and supporting its efforts to end gun violence

00:35:08 In the shadow of police week

00:35:10 We must remember that ATF agents are law enforcement too and they play an important role in protecting the public and other law enforcement

00:35:17 Officers all over the country from gun violence. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions

00:35:21 Thank You miss Sampson. Mr. Cummings Cummings you're recognized. Thank you. Mr. Chairman ranking member Plaskin and thank you representative French Hill for

00:35:30 the introduction

00:35:32 representative Hill has been

00:35:34 Very engaged and concerned about the death of Brian Malinowski and his district

00:35:39 And and we really appreciate his help bringing

00:35:43 attention to this tragedy

00:35:46 My name is Bud Cummins. I'm an attorney for Brian Malinowski's family

00:35:50 I'm a former United States attorney from the Eastern District of Arkansas. I

00:35:54 Want to tell you a little bit. Mr. Chairman about Brian Malinowski

00:36:00 Until two months ago Brian was the executive director of the Bill and Hillary Clinton National Airport in Little Rock. He's 53 years old

00:36:07 He and his wife who's present with us today mayor

00:36:10 Celebrated their 25th anniversary last December and he had many many good friends

00:36:17 He grew up in Pennsylvania with his brother and his two sisters

00:36:21 And and he wanted to be a fighter pilot, but he didn't have the eyesight. So instead he went and got his

00:36:28 Certified became a certified flight instructor got a college degree and went into the airport management industry

00:36:35 And he had several stops along the way in Pennsylvania

00:36:38 Florida but in El Paso, Texas

00:36:40 He is where he met his wife mayor and as I said, they've been married 25 years. He found his way to Little Rock and

00:36:47 Eventually was named the executive director of our airport by all accounts. He's a very good

00:36:53 In his profession. Our airport is one of I think nine

00:36:58 I've heard a few different numbers less than 12 in the country. That's debt-free and that I think

00:37:03 Maybe that's concept that's strange here in Congress, but I think that that represents

00:37:09 some good management

00:37:12 Brian was also a lifelong collector as a child. He started collecting coins

00:37:17 He had various hobbies. He was that guy

00:37:20 I've been to their home and seen books this thick about coin collecting collecting currencies and other and other he

00:37:27 About card playing he he's he studies card playing and he he tried his hand at competitive card tournaments

00:37:34 About six years ago

00:37:36 Brian's father gave him his gun collection and that sparked interest a new interest a collection interest in Brian and since then

00:37:43 He has become also a gun collector and he found a gun shows

00:37:47 He found other people who shared his enthusiasm and his interest in not only guns

00:37:54 But in coins and other artifacts that you'll find at a gun show

00:37:58 He'd set up a table on weekends occasionally and he'd display some of his guns and he display his coins

00:38:05 And he would buy and sell and trade with other collectors

00:38:08 It is legal to buy and sell and trade firearms

00:38:13 Without a federal firearms license if you are a collector or a hobbyist at some point

00:38:20 ATF suspected the Brian Malinowski may have crossed a very murky line and he was no longer a hobbyist

00:38:27 Because of that ATF concluded that he was required to buy a $200 FFL

00:38:32 Federal firearms license before he sold any more guns

00:38:36 One thing is certain

00:38:39 His family and his friends and all his work colleagues would all guarantee you if they were here today

00:38:45 That he loved his career and he loved being in the airport management business

00:38:49 And if anybody had ever suggested to him that his weekend hobby was in any way threatening that he would have immediately been hands-off

00:38:57 But nobody told him

00:39:00 Instead ATF launched a criminal investigation into Brian. They researched his background. They put a tracker on his car

00:39:09 They put tails on him and surveilled him and soon they obtained a search warrant to search his home

00:39:15 By the time they obtained the warrant, they knew a lot about Brian

00:39:19 They knew he worked in a secure environment at the airport. They knew he had lived a law-abiding life

00:39:24 With absolutely no criminal history and they knew he lived at home with his wife and his two dogs and they kept a very regular

00:39:31 schedule

00:39:33 Despite all this knowledge ATF hatched a plan to execute the warrant by force and on March 19th at 601 a.m

00:39:40 Over one hour before sunup 10 carloads of ATF agents and Little Rock

00:39:46 Police Department officers came to the Malinowski home to execute the search warrant

00:39:51 They wore full tactical SWAT gear and they approached the door at 602

00:39:57 And 46 seconds a.m. That's an hour over an hour about an hour and 15 minutes before sunup that day

00:40:04 They had a piece of tape ready and they covered up his doorbell camera

00:40:09 So if he had had time just to wonder who was at the door

00:40:12 I think people get a doorbell camera to see who's at the front door, but they took away his ability to do that

00:40:18 Moments later mrs. Malinowski heard a loud crash as their front door caved in and fearing for his wife's safety

00:40:27 Brian jumped up at the sound of a crash

00:40:29 Found a pistol loaded a magazine in it and left the bedroom to investigate

00:40:34 He warned his wife to stay behind him in the bedroom, but she stubbornly followed him through the doorway

00:40:40 It appears to us that ATF also killed the electricity to the home making it difficult for Brian to see in the pre-dawn hours

00:40:48 Mrs. Malinowski saw only darkness as she peered down towards the front entryway and could see shadow shadowy outlines a

00:40:55 Presumed home invaders standing in her front hallway. That's what Brian saw too

00:41:00 There was gunfire and Brian was fatally wounded

00:41:04 His wife was standing just a few inches from him when he received a fatal wound to his head a

00:41:10 Mirror we know we don't know all the details of what happened at the front door

00:41:17 Because they covered up the ring camera and they because they didn't wear body cameras in spite of a three-year-old policy

00:41:25 Initiated by the president United States that mandated that they wear body cameras when executing search warrants

00:41:30 But we do know this we know

00:41:33 57 seconds elapsed from the time they covered up the lens of the camera to the time. Mr. Malinowski was dead

00:41:39 So something less than 57 seconds is the time it took them to knock if they knocked but we don't know if they knocked

00:41:46 Force entry on the front door and from mr

00:41:51 Malinowski to emerge to wake up find a gun and come to the bedroom that means they couldn't have been at the front door more

00:41:57 than 20 or 30 seconds

00:41:59 Although mrs. Her husband had just been shot in the forehead right in front of her the agents dragged mrs

00:42:09 Malinowski into the front yard. She was barefoot wearing minimal night clothing and the temperature was 32 degrees

00:42:15 They locked her in the back seat of a car where she was detained for four or five hours

00:42:21 She begged to be allowed to check on her husband, but they refused those requests

00:42:25 And kept her locked in the car in her night

00:42:28 Yeah

00:42:28 And some she also had not been to the restroom yet since she just gotten out of bed and they refused her

00:42:34 Request to go to the neighbors and use the restroom at one and then finally

00:42:38 It took her to a nearby fire station made her walk through in her nightclothes in front of the firemen and

00:42:45 Use the the restroom with a female police officer

00:42:49 Present in the room while she went to the restroom

00:42:51 Mrs. Malinowski does not have the answers to many of her questions and there are a lot of questions

00:43:01 We give federal law enforcement awesome powers we have given and when I was United States Attorney

00:43:09 I I was responsible for the use of those powers

00:43:12 But but it's a huge problem if those powers fall into the wrong hands

00:43:17 Everyone

00:43:19 I've been involved in public controversy for many years

00:43:22 I've never been involved in anything that more Kansas have come to me to express their concern and they all ask the same question

00:43:29 Why and I don't have an answer for that

00:43:31 We don't have an answer to that question and we hope this committee will pursue this and find the answer

00:43:39 Why and if there's not an answer we hope that you'll find the problem and fix it

00:43:46 Thank you

00:43:48 Thank You mr. Cummings that was

00:43:51 So wrong

00:43:55 Gentlemen from we will now proceed five-minute question

00:43:57 Gentleman from North Dakota is recognized for five minutes early morning hours riot shields

00:44:04 Probably a no-knock warrant, but either way a full-on Tommy tactical assault on a on a residential dwelling

00:44:15 Mr.

00:44:17 Cummings you said in your opening statement, but where did mr. Malinowski work?

00:44:20 at the

00:44:22 He was the executive director of the Little Rock Airport

00:44:25 Do you know if firearms are permitted at the Hillary Clinton National Airport to my knowledge?

00:44:29 It's like every other airport. They do not allow you to carry firearms in the airport

00:44:35 To your knowledge had mr. Malinowski ever been accused of bringing firearms to work

00:44:40 Not to my knowledge. I'm not aware of him being accused of any

00:44:44 Misconduct at his job

00:44:47 What did stand to reason that if mr. Malinowski had been driving into work or driving home from work?

00:44:52 He would not have brought a gun with him given that it's a gun-free zone. I think that's a fair assumption

00:44:56 Do you think that in the process of executing their search warrant?

00:45:01 They would have the FBI or the ATF would have been able to get a copy of mr. Malik Malinowski's work schedule. I

00:45:08 Think his work schedule was well known to the ATF and I want to be like clear like I mean because we're talking ATF and because

00:45:16 We're talking firearms who are doing all the things. This is basically a licensing dispute

00:45:20 yes, sir, and it's a it's a it's a

00:45:23 alleged violation that the definition is

00:45:27 Subjective and it's been actually litigated quite a bit here recently and and it's become apparent that it's it's almost

00:45:36 Every person this room could read and come up with a different interpretation

00:45:38 Mr. Graham during your tenure at the ATF were you ever involved in planning and execution of search warrants?

00:45:44 Congressman I have not okay. Mr. Cummings is your time is

00:45:49 At the US Attorney. Did you have a chance to review search warrants? Yes, sir. When do you use no-knock warrants?

00:45:56 Let me stop

00:45:58 What's the most dangerous kind of warrant to execute a no-knock warrant when you kick the door and wake people up out of their beds?

00:46:04 When they may have a gun nearby when's the worst time to execute that probably at 6 a.m

00:46:09 And if you're in charge as a US Attorney or ATF supervisor any of those things

00:46:13 What's your number one concern when determining whether or not to execute a no-knock warrant?

00:46:17 Safety of the officer and safety of the public was there anything you you talked earlier about tracking devices?

00:46:23 And can you go through a little bit of this of what they were doing prior to the night? The warrant was issued

00:46:29 They had followed. Mr. Malinowski around town and surveilled him on numerous occasions

00:46:34 They ran

00:46:35 Agents in to do undercover buys at gun shows they'd taken

00:46:38 Pictures of him at the gun show

00:46:42 It's breathtaking the amount of resources for an agency that

00:46:47 Claims budgetary constraints that they put this many resources on a gun showcase. I

00:46:53 Can think of

00:46:58 500 different ways in which this warrant could have been executed to protect the law enforcement officer and protect the victim in this case

00:47:05 I don't know what else you call them

00:47:07 we

00:47:10 What is the stated reason for executing the no-knock warrant I

00:47:15 think in

00:47:18 Case law you would look for exigent circumstances. They might be risk of escape. They might be destruction of evidence

00:47:25 They might be danger to some other party that's in the house of all the exigent circumstances

00:47:30 I'm aware of that have ever been discussed in any case. None of them existed here and that was well known

00:47:35 Likelihood of the evidence being used to I mean you can flush drugs

00:47:40 Yeah, all of the difference used a lot utilized a lot in drug cases. They know somebody had delivered at midnight

00:47:47 They know it's getting farmed out the next day

00:47:49 So with all of this information and all of the things, you know about the case

00:47:53 Have they stated any exigent circumstance for utilizing the no-knock or utilizing this type of enforcement of the warrant to my knowledge?

00:48:01 DOJ has released the affidavit that supported the search warrant and has called me and

00:48:06 Senator Tom Cotton to tell us that there was no body cameras used that day and that's the only statement

00:48:12 They've made about this case

00:48:13 I mean

00:48:14 I think we need to just take a step back here and recognize if this was anything else other than ATF and firearms

00:48:21 People would be apoplectic about how the how that how this war was set up

00:48:26 But because it involves something that has a political reason but there's a person dead

00:48:31 Somebody's dead because the ATF decided to execute a warrant in the most unprofessional

00:48:39 Irresponsible and dangerous way and I think that oftentimes law enforcement have a very difficult job

00:48:44 The number one concern is the safety of the officer

00:48:48 But the reality of this is this was executed for reasons that make no procedural sense

00:48:54 They make no safety sense and somebody is dead because they decided they wanted to go into a house at 1 a.m

00:49:02 of a known gun owner

00:49:04 For the purpose of making I can think of anything else other than a political statement. Thank you for representing the family

00:49:10 Thank you for being here today

00:49:11 The ATF has a history of doing these things with warrants and it has to stop and with that I yield back

00:49:18 Mr. Chairman, I'm unanimous consent motion

00:49:20 Gentlemen's recognized gentleman yields back gentlemen's recognized. I'd like to introduce the search warrant affidavit and search warrant

00:49:27 Which is not a no knock warrant

00:49:30 Was it still at 1 a.m. With I don't know how many people in 6 a.m. In Tommy tactical gear

00:49:38 Without objection the chair now recognizes the gentle lady from Florida

00:49:42 Thank You mr. Chairman

00:49:46 I'm repulsed to hear my colleagues calls to destroy the one agency that actually provides for firearm safety

00:49:52 I vividly recall the tragic tragic events that unfolded on February 14th

00:49:57 2018 at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida in my home County

00:50:01 That day our nation witnessed one of the deadliest school shootings in American history where 17 innocent lives were brutally taken and countless others

00:50:09 Irrevocably changed the horror of it still resonates across our community

00:50:14 In case my Republican colleagues forgot these victims were students and educators with dreams and aspirations snuffed out by an AR-15

00:50:21 Which is a battlefield rifle

00:50:23 One was Alyssa Alhadeff a 14 year old soccer star another start Scott bagel a teacher who died protecting his students

00:50:31 My colleagues will and are citing what they claim are injustices today

00:50:35 But none of them will mention Scott or Alyssa's name

00:50:37 Nor will they mention the tens of thousands of others just like them who are shot and died from firearms each year

00:50:44 My colleagues also won't share how Stoneman Douglas students huddled in classes or sent tearful

00:50:49 Desperate texts to loved ones or how every school parent was nodded in panic awaiting news about whether their child was alive or dead that

00:50:56 Day, but my colleagues are not here to talk about those real-life, but grim gun realities

00:51:01 They want to bury those realities and ignore the fact that the US gun homicide rate is

00:51:06 26 times that of other high-income countries instead

00:51:10 They brought us here to do the bidding of the gun lobby and for that they should be ashamed of themselves

00:51:15 Miss Hampson, I want us to clear up the ridiculous assertion that gun dealers licenses are revoked over minor clerical errors or typos

00:51:23 Isn't it true that clerical errors can often be serious problems that cause guns to fall into a criminal's hands and that a typo could

00:51:31 Be an attempt to falsify business records

00:51:33 That is true. And as you noted when discussing the zero tolerance policy, there are five enumerated

00:51:40 Actions that will qualify and it would be something like falsifying a record which you cannot do accidentally

00:51:46 You can't buy a typo falsify a record has to be a willful and deliberate violation

00:51:51 like for example

00:51:52 It could include not running a background check on a purchaser when legally required to or include selling that firearm to a violent felon

00:51:58 Correct, correct

00:52:00 It's a tear to say then that clerical errors includes very dangerous situations where firearm dealers shirk their duties and sell guns to criminals

00:52:09 That's not only true, but they're not clerical errors when you look at what they actually are

00:52:14 These are deliberate and willful wrongdoings

00:52:17 One such group of criminals that I'm concerned about getting their hands on guns are domestic abusers every month an average of 70 women

00:52:24 Are shot and killed by an intimate partner. That's more than two per day in the United States yet today

00:52:30 We sit here so gun lobby lackeys can try to block background checks that would prevent these abusers from getting guns in the first place

00:52:37 We are here so Republicans can protect gun traffickers who skirt the rules and let guns fall into criminal hands

00:52:44 To pretend that non-compliant dealers are the victims

00:52:47 We are losing thousands of our mothers sisters and daughters to abusers who get their hands on guns

00:52:52 Sure seems like that's why we're really here. Ms. Sampson

00:52:56 How much more is an abused woman likely to die if her male abuser has a gun?

00:52:59 I

00:53:02 The exact statistic just left my mind, but I believe it's four times. I think it's five times

00:53:06 I'm just actually and and why is that?

00:53:08 it's because having a firearm in that situation makes it more likely for it to escalate quickly and

00:53:15 Contrary to some of the statements around it being an equalizer for women

00:53:18 Even if a woman has a firearm she can quickly be disarmed and that gun can be turned against her right and yet

00:53:23 I've heard my Republicans

00:53:25 Colleagues say that the solution to this is for women to have guns to tell me miss Sampson

00:53:28 Does a woman having a gun in the home make her safer against an intimate partner?

00:53:32 Absolutely, not in general. Isn't it true that adding more guns to a violent situation actually increases fatality rates? That's correct

00:53:39 Before I yield back

00:53:40 I want to make it clear that we have far too many loopholes in our system

00:53:43 For example, my Jamie's law legislation named for Fred Guttenberg's dog daughter who was murdered at Parkland would prohibit anyone from purchasing

00:53:51 Ammunition who is already barred from buying a gun. It's a common-sense layer of protection

00:53:56 But federal law doesn't require a background check to prevent prohibited purchasers from acquiring ammunition

00:54:02 Jamie's law closes this ammo loophole. Why do we need it nearly 40,000 people die from guns in the US every year

00:54:08 That's four people every hour whose dreams are snatched away

00:54:11 By a gun and a bullet each one leaving a trail of sorrow and pain for friends and family to navigate over an entire lifetime

00:54:17 Now it's only elected Republicans that are chained to the gun lobby and Republicans are really good at saying that we don't need more laws

00:54:25 We just need to enforce the ones that are already on the books

00:54:27 Well, it's already illegal for prohibited purchasers to purchase ammunition, but we don't enforce it

00:54:34 So I think that all of my colleagues I would expect would join me in co-sponsoring Jamie's law

00:54:39 Bringing it to the floor immediately so that we can actually enforce a law already on the books instead of adding a new one

00:54:45 Thank you practice what you preach. I yield back the balance of my time

00:54:49 General a yields back. Mr. Cummings. What was what was Brian Malinowski's principal livelihood?

00:54:57 He was the highest paid city employee in the city of Little Rock as the executive director of the

00:55:03 Little Rock Airport and it's matter of public record. I think he made about two hundred sixty thousand dollars a year

00:55:08 So it wasn't selling guns

00:55:10 No, sir

00:55:11 This was and the rule at the time

00:55:13 The law at the time says if your principal livelihood is not in selling firearms

00:55:18 You do not need an FFL. Is that is is that accurate? That's my understanding to the best you can

00:55:23 So what what did he what was the crime? What did he do wrong?

00:55:28 You'd have to ask ATF they decided that he committed maybe it committed a crime even now this the standard is changed

00:55:35 But the new rule didn't take effect until this this past Monday. Is that right?

00:55:39 That's correct

00:55:39 And even under the new standard there's a question of whether he was in violation of the law

00:55:44 Is that accurate a huge question huge question, but under the old standard it was pretty simple is your principal livelihood

00:55:51 Selling firearms. That's correct. And for Brian Malinowski, it wasn't obviously not it wasn't and yet at

00:55:58 602 on March 19th

00:56:01 10 cars pull up to his home and to the gentlelady behind yous home

00:56:07 come up to the door in tactical gear and put a

00:56:11 Tape across the doorbell camera so no one can see what's gonna go on

00:56:15 Correct. Now that's scary to me

00:56:19 And then now if the guy had done if he had if he had for sure done something wrong a crime, okay

00:56:25 But they do that and then 57 seconds later

00:56:28 Gunshots erupt and Brian Malinowski is no longer with us a good man by your you knew the guy served your community

00:56:36 highest paid city official in Little Rock

00:56:38 What the heck do you think's going on here

00:56:42 That's the question on the lips of every person in Arkansas

00:56:46 That's asked that's contacted me and that's a large number of people and is isn't it true that a week before

00:56:51 These same agents were there in the Walmart parking lot close by the Malinowski home

00:56:57 Going to go execute the search warrant and then decided not to because Brian Malinowski wasn't home

00:57:03 Why was it so critical that he'd be home? I

00:57:05 Don't know. Mr. Chairman. It was a search warrant

00:57:09 They in fact they could have waited till nobody was home and coming they wanted to kick the door down

00:57:13 They could have come at noon and kicked the door down when mayor and Brian were both gone and searched and found whatever they were

00:57:19 Looking for exactly and anything they wanted on. Mr. Malinowski if they wanted his phone or anything, they could have served that warrant

00:57:24 They could have got a warrant for that

00:57:26 I'm sure the judge would have given it to him and they could have done that at the airport

00:57:29 At his principal livelihood at the airport, correct, correct, then dad insult to injury. This is the part that just I know

00:57:36 infuriates, mr. Hill as your member of Congress and

00:57:41 I would bet any American to add insult to injury the way they treated his spouse

00:57:47 Mrs. Malinowski sitting behind you the way they treated her at

00:57:52 A moment that maybe the most high anxiety moment in any individual's life. Their spouse has just been

00:57:59 shot

00:58:02 That to me is like unbelievable

00:58:04 What she had to go through it makes me very angry. Well, it should it should make all of us angry

00:58:10 I did I think it makes a Democrat that there's no there's no

00:58:13 explanation for that that to me and if you and I keep coming back to was this done for some kind of

00:58:21 Intimidate we've seen this from other agencies frankly

00:58:24 intimidation

00:58:26 We had the FBI

00:58:28 Mr. Halk come in arrest him in front of his wife and children same thing

00:58:34 Predawn raid seven kids there take him away

00:58:38 When his attorney said we'll be happy to work with you

00:58:41 You'd have been happy to work with these guys if they'd contacted you or any it

00:58:45 Absolutely, that's the part that gets us. That's the part to get what was his principal livelihood? It was not selling firearms

00:58:51 I can't figure out what the crime is. I made by the way any of the guns any of the firearms that mr

00:58:57 Malinowski sold as part of his hobby, excuse me

00:59:00 Any of them ever be used where any of them were ever using a crime?

00:59:05 The affidavit alleges that they were they were found in crimes

00:59:09 But the crimes were three traffic stops where there was marijuana and a firearm in the car. So that was a crime

00:59:15 And but the other ones but they were never fired in the Commission of crime themselves

00:59:20 They were never used in the Commission of crime to according to the FDA

00:59:23 Yeah, so you you ask it when your testimony you said the right thing why why did they do it?

00:59:28 Why did this happen? So that's what that's what we're gonna try to find out tomorrow. Mr. Duttlebach be sitting right where you guys are sitting

00:59:33 We're gonna ask him questions about this

00:59:35 He's probably gonna say ongoing investigation, but we're gonna push him as hard as we can to try to figure out why?

00:59:40 They would behave in this way and why they didn't wear body cams. It's almost like what they're trying to hide

00:59:47 Cover up the doorbell. No body cams. What are they trying to hide?

00:59:51 But we'll get to those questions tomorrow with that. I see my time has expired. I will now recognize that

00:59:56 The gentleman from Massachusetts. Mr. Lynch

00:59:59 Thank You, mr. Chairman

01:00:03 so as a

01:00:05 member of the House Oversight Committee, I strongly supported the independent investigations years ago of

01:00:11 operations conducted by the ATF and that included

01:00:14 operation fast and furious and operation wide receiver

01:00:18 By the Department of Justice. I also believe that under the circumstances surrounding the death of mr. Malinowski

01:00:27 We should also

01:00:29 Institute a full and independent review

01:00:33 However, like miss Samson, I do not agree with the ad hominem attacks on

01:00:39 our

01:00:42 ATF agents and law enforcement personnel. I was here in in 2002 when

01:00:49 President George Bush George W Bush, excuse me

01:00:53 Reestablished the ATF within the Department of Justice and he did that for all the right reasons, I believe

01:01:01 you know we had a

01:01:04 mission to protect communities from violent criminals

01:01:08 criminal organizations and and also

01:01:11 We needed to get at the problem of the illegal illegal use and trafficking of firearms

01:01:17 to this end the ATF

01:01:20 regularly

01:01:21 to my experience works with local and state law enforcement agencies nationwide to reduce gun violence a

01:01:29 National crisis that's affected each of our communities

01:01:31 In my own district in within which includes part of the city of Boston

01:01:37 the ATF Boston Field Division recently partnered with the Boston Police Department

01:01:42 the Suffolk County Sheriff's Office the Suffolk County District Attorney's Office and the US Attorney's Office on a

01:01:48 new initiative to combat the flow of illegal guns and the incidents of violent crimes using those those guns in

01:01:58 Particularly the Boston firearm intelligence review shooting and trafficking program or the Boston first program was developed to deploy state-of-the-art

01:02:06 shot spotter technology or

01:02:09 tracking tech

01:02:11 Ballistics tracking technology is another term to assist law enforcement agency in

01:02:16 reviewing shooting incidents and firearms trace data to take illegal guns and

01:02:21 violent criminals off the street and and also to respond more quickly to those incidents of

01:02:26 gun violence

01:02:29 The ATF Boston Field Division also participates in several critical multi-agency task forces

01:02:35 within our state and in our city

01:02:37 Perfect example of

01:02:42 what that collaboration can do is

01:02:46 You know, we had a we had a shootout at my local park

01:02:51 So I grew up in the housing projects. We got a park across the street

01:02:55 We've got it's heavily heavily used a second most heavily used park in the city

01:03:00 and we had a shootout between two rival gangs and

01:03:04 It was during a couple of lacrosse games a lacrosse tournament and a basketball tournament and

01:03:14 It ended up at a situation where moms and dads had to lay on top of the bodies of their kids

01:03:21 To prevent them from being shot early 60 shots fired

01:03:25 It only lasted a couple of minutes

01:03:27 But that couple of minutes felt like a couple of hours to those parents trying to protect their kids

01:03:31 so

01:03:33 We were able to with the help of the ATF and and Boston Police the FBI

01:03:39 The DEA I asked to get involved as well

01:03:43 and also police departments from Boston City of Brockton Quincy Stoughton to begin to

01:03:50 Attack that problem and and bring in some of that technology to reduce the likelihood of that happening again

01:03:56 And I'm very thankful. I'm thankful for my ATF agents and law enforcement personnel

01:04:02 For the job that they do it's not easy

01:04:05 But miss Samson if you could talk a little bit about

01:04:11 You know last week we had you wouldn't believe it but we had law enforcement officers

01:04:18 National Police Week where we show appreciation now what now now we're going after them

01:04:23 Could you further discuss the extent to which ATF supports local law enforcement and preventing gun violence and and and gun trafficking?

01:04:32 Thank you. So there are a variety of forms that this takes first

01:04:36 We have to think about the context that we're in which is epidemic gun violence

01:04:40 So we have over

01:04:41 44,000 people killed each year and that doesn't account for all the shootings that happen where people are injured or

01:04:46 Where there's just shots fired

01:04:48 so local law enforcement agencies are trying to respond in that environment and

01:04:53 ATF is the only federal agency that can help them understand number one. Where are the guns coming from?

01:04:58 They can't figure that out without ATF

01:05:01 So every time a gun incident happens ATF is the one who tells them where the gun came from which can help them identify

01:05:07 Suspects and follow those leads along long or ATF also helps law enforcement understand firearms technology so that they can better

01:05:16 understand what's going on in their communities and then in terms of preventing gun violence in the first place because gun violence is the

01:05:22 number one cause of death for police officers

01:05:24 ATF's work around regulating the industry and for preventing guns from being trafficked into communities

01:05:30 Stops gun violence before it starts which is a huge help to local law enforcement. I think the gentlelady

01:05:36 I'm sorry, I'm sorry, so, you know the previous witness had had like

01:05:41 eight minutes and

01:05:44 So, you know you could I would ask unanimous consent the gentlelady have an additional minute. I was not trying to short

01:05:51 I gave her I don't think you were here 35 seconds. I think you were here, but thank you

01:05:54 If you could wrap up in one minute, please

01:05:56 Sorry

01:06:00 Yeah, so I mean to just put a finer point on it local law enforcement agencies could not do their work without ATF

01:06:07 Thank you for your courtesy, mr. Chairman, I always

01:06:13 I might recall the time the gentleman and I were in the the outback of Pakistan and the gentleman was hurt in a

01:06:21 sniper

01:06:22 fire, so

01:06:24 We go back a long way on gun safety

01:06:26 And the gentleman is correct that we do we do need the alcohol tobacco and fire. We definitely do need ATF

01:06:35 Mr. Graham, thank you for your decades of service

01:06:39 You obviously stayed there because of your dedication to the very mission that we're talking about today of making sure that

01:06:46 Guns are not in the hands of people who are not entitled to have them or may misuse it. Is that correct?

01:06:53 That's correct chairman. And so in that dedication

01:06:56 In 37 years, you've seen some zigs and zags

01:07:00 Can you talk about what you've seen or saw that might have changed in the last few years that concerns you?

01:07:09 Certainly from a field

01:07:11 investigator perspective all the way through the first and second level of supervision

01:07:16 I've personally conducted field inspections to where errors were disclosed on

01:07:22 4473

01:07:24 That is the transaction record that individuals buy a complete when they buy firearms through a federal firearms licensee

01:07:32 What concerns me is with the zero tolerance policy ATF has had a long-standing

01:07:38 administrative action policy that did address

01:07:40 licensees level of compliance or the level of violations in compliance with the Code of Federal Regulation and

01:07:47 Through the inspections. They were given an opportunity those violations that weren't

01:07:53 directly

01:07:56 Linked to public safety those were corrected

01:07:59 So let me just interrupt you briefly

01:08:02 So what you're saying is is it in the past your job was to get maximum compliance knowing that mistakes are made

01:08:09 But that changed into in 2021, didn't it?

01:08:13 Most certainly it put a lot of focus where there was minimum latitude allowed with the zero tolerance policy

01:08:20 However, there was the exception of presenting extraordinary circumstances

01:08:24 However, those were to be discussed during a held hearing at the various division levels

01:08:30 Is that necessary?

01:08:32 in other words prior to 2021, do you believe that

01:08:37 compliance with the clear threat of both the cost that comes with going to court and

01:08:43 the possibility of losing that valuable license was sufficient to get

01:08:48 of

01:08:50 The vast majority of people to make every effort to comply

01:08:53 Providing that the violations that chairman did not have a direct nexus to criminal activity

01:08:59 The FFL's were provided an opportunity to remediate

01:09:02 Basically, it's the investigators job to ensure that the records that are executed are fully compliant simply because it's those records that

01:09:11 criminal enforcement

01:09:13 uses to

01:09:15 Trace a firearm to the last known legal possessor and if those records are inaccurate it could perhaps

01:09:21 Affect how a warrant is served who the individual is that may be perhaps looked at

01:09:27 so

01:09:29 prior to

01:09:30 2021 there were opportunities using the administrative action program to address

01:09:35 Violations that were found at a federal firearms licensee given their previous inspection history considered in the entire process

01:09:43 let me just give a couple of quick questions and you may be not be the only one that wants to answer it, but

01:09:48 Certainly during the Obama administration

01:09:52 Operation fast and furious went counter to everything you normally did allowing more than 2,000 weapons

01:09:58 To end up in the cartels hands

01:10:00 That was a deviation from any sensible thing that you saw during most of your 37 years

01:10:07 that was

01:10:09 Quite frankly not what happened during the next four years after President Obama

01:10:14 The question is is should your agency be able to operate?

01:10:20 substantially the same without regard to

01:10:23 Who happens to be in the White House and should your mission be more consistent?

01:10:29 And in fact looking at what happened with fast and furious what happened in the Obama?

01:10:34 Administration as an attack on on guns and particularly on their ability to collect money, which was a separate program

01:10:40 versus the four years of President Trump and the eight years of President Bush before that and

01:10:46 Now President Obama a President Biden. Do you see kind of a back-and-forth that reeks in general of

01:10:53 politics rather than

01:10:55 You're being able to do your job in a consistent way and you can comment on any of these administrations you feel appropriate

01:11:02 Quite frankly chairman. I have no comment to make on fast and furious

01:11:06 That was criminal enforcement and endeavor as far as their regulatory perspective is concerned

01:11:11 you have both ATF agents and industry operation investigators that are dedicated to upholding the United States Code of as

01:11:19 Well as a code of federal regulations

01:11:22 when there are changes

01:11:24 It not only affects how the investigators

01:11:28 Deploy their on-site inspections compliance inspections of the federal fire and bliss and see but on the industry

01:11:35 member themselves

01:11:36 There is a lot of back and forth there's a lot of confusion and going back to the zero tolerance policy did create

01:11:44 Confusion as to you know last year or a few years prior. I may have been inspected

01:11:49 However, I wasn't cited for whatever that code of federal regulation citation was

01:11:55 But however this year during Curt inspection because of this new directive they are being pursued for revocation

01:12:02 Okay, I'm on just a yes or no from anyone and hopefully everyone very quickly

01:12:06 In what happened that the chairman was talking about a few minutes ago

01:12:11 Should this committee seek to mandate body cams anytime?

01:12:15 Potential lethal forces being used in any ATF operation. Yes or no? Yes

01:12:21 Yes

01:12:24 Yes

01:12:25 Thank you. That was a yes ma'am. Yes. I got four yeses. I'll take it. We now go to the gentleman from Virginia. Mr

01:12:32 Connolly that is hard to get but I will take yes for an answer. Mr. Connolly and and I say yes to mr. Chairman

01:12:39 Mr. Cummins, I just want to clarify something in your testimony

01:12:43 You heard my colleague from New York enter into the record the actual warrant, which was not a no-knock warrant

01:12:51 Is it still your testimony that what occurred the tragedy that occurred with?

01:12:55 Mr. Malinowski and his family was a no-knock warrant because body cameras weren't worn in the in the doorbell camera was covered up

01:13:03 We don't know what happened at the front door

01:13:04 But I would say based on what we do know that 57 seconds I described minus the time to allow for mr

01:13:11 Malinowski to respond to the crash in and the door and whatever time it took them to knock on the door if they knocked

01:13:16 After they cover up the door

01:13:18 We know that it was 20 or 30 seconds

01:13:20 But and my answer is there's it's a distinction without a difference. Well, all you hear is a crash

01:13:25 All right, but for the record, what do you know? But for the record, you're a lawyer

01:13:29 Yeah, the warrant filed was not a no-knock warrant not on its face. That's right. Thank you. Just want to clarify that

01:13:35 Miss Sampson, mr. Cummins described really a horror

01:13:40 That should not occur to any American citizen or American resident

01:13:44 Is there however a distinction in the solution

01:13:50 the solution before us today is abolished the agency because they engaged in behavior that was

01:13:57 brutal or

01:13:59 Violent or beyond acceptable norms. Do you believe that's the solution?

01:14:04 Absolutely not

01:14:07 So the very same people who condemned

01:14:10 Those who called for that solution with the Minneapolis Police Department after the George Floyd tragedy

01:14:18 have a different solution today for ATF for some reason this particular police force ought to be abolished and

01:14:24 No other even if they also engage in violent behavior brutal brutality and

01:14:30 violation of the law

01:14:33 You do you note the irony? I

01:14:35 Do and with respect to the ongoing investigation

01:14:41 That's not what my area of expertise is

01:14:44 We of course believe in accountability because we live in a democracy so there should be accountability and investigation

01:14:49 but the solution isn't to abolish the agency exactly in fact, the agency has some very important missions as

01:14:55 Chairman Issa just indicated he said no we need ATF. I agree with him that

01:15:02 Reform it. Yes abolish it very different kind of answer. What would happen if we abolish the ATF?

01:15:08 What kinds of consequences might flow from that?

01:15:11 There will be consequences for all Americans first and foremost

01:15:14 We would lose the only federal agency responsible for making sure that firearms are not trafficked into our streets

01:15:20 Ah, maybe that's why some people don't like the ATF that particular

01:15:25 charge that they don't want regulation of arms of any kind and they don't like the federal agency that has that

01:15:34 Mission which may be why for so many years they've blocked

01:15:39 the confirmation of an ATF director

01:15:43 That could be all I know is that ATF is the only federal agency that we have and we're dealing with epidemic gun violence

01:15:52 Well, let's look at that. So if we abolish it

01:15:55 Would that make it easier for criminal cartels to traffic firearms in this country?

01:16:00 Yes, if we abolish it with that in fact

01:16:04 Strengthen Mexican cartels engaged in human trafficking drug trafficking and arms trafficking. Yes

01:16:10 would we expect more assault weapons to be funneled to the black market if

01:16:15 Some of my colleagues succeeded in abolishing the ATF. Yes

01:16:20 Could it affect violent crime in the United States? Absolutely. How so?

01:16:24 Well ATF right now as I said, they are responsible for regulating the industry

01:16:30 And so we know that most almost every gun starts out in the legal market and it's funneled from the legal market

01:16:37 Which are FFL's who are regulated by ATF into the illegal market

01:16:42 so if ATF is no longer there then that channel which is already larger than it should be would

01:16:47 Overwhelmingly increase we would have more guns and more gun violence. So if we abolish ATF as

01:16:53 The chairman of the select committee not not mr. Issa

01:16:57 want to do

01:17:00 And that is supported by an agency that gave him an A+ rating gun owners of America that actually sells merchandise calling for

01:17:07 Abolish the ATF if we did that it's your testimony

01:17:11 I don't want to put words in your mouth that it would actually make Americans less safe and would remove the only federal agency charged

01:17:18 With trying to protect them from firearm violence and trafficking in America. Yes, that is true. Thank you

01:17:26 I yield back. I

01:17:27 Thank the gentleman. We now go to the gentleman from Florida. Mr. Gates for five minutes. Mr. Kloegner. What is the ATF's zero tolerance policy?

01:17:36 It is a change in how they used to enforce

01:17:40 Violations the law against FFL's to no longer allow them to fix errors or to improve their compliance

01:17:47 It has no tolerance for these typos and wants to revoke their licenses and give me a flavor of the type of errors that might have

01:17:54 Previously resulted in the ATF working with a license holder and now would result in the agency

01:18:01 Trying to revoke that license

01:18:04 I'd love to give you the examples that fly in the face of what the zero tolerance policy says it is which is

01:18:09 Prohibited persons and background checks and things like that. But the problem is my client

01:18:13 Did none of those things that are even stated in the zero tolerance policy and they're still

01:18:18 falling subject to getting revoked and we can talk about a typo of an abbreviation of

01:18:23 Somebody's name when they shouldn't have done that we can talk about accidentally

01:18:26 Listing United States as the country instead of paying attention to the box saying County things like that

01:18:32 Miss Samson gave testimony that these are essential that these are necessary

01:18:38 Regulations to enforce at the finest point. Do you have a response to that testimony? Some are essential

01:18:46 I agree the background check requirements the identification requirements and making sure we know who the purchaser is

01:18:52 And they're not a prohibited person, but that's not what this exact case I'm dealing with has to do with at all

01:18:58 There are no prohibited persons involved here. There were no missing background checks

01:19:02 There were no missing anything that would actually affect public safety

01:19:05 And in the case I'm aware of in my district the error wasn't even made by the license the license holder

01:19:11 The error was made by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement

01:19:14 because they were charged with a certain feature of the background check and so if a

01:19:20 License holder has to rely on a state entity to do some portion of the check and they make an error

01:19:27 That certainly shouldn't result in the license holder

01:19:30 Experiencing a revocation action should it we agree it should not and yet that's the circumstance and I'm wondering just how you how you hear that

01:19:39 Testimony, mr. Cummins as you as you deal with

01:19:41 representing a family that's dealt with such loss at the hands of such a such a

01:19:47 grave error

01:19:50 Does the does the hypocrisy not

01:19:52 Not not ring pretty loud. I was I've been in all sides this I've been a United States attorney

01:19:59 I prosecuted more gun crimes and probably many prosecutors in the country

01:20:04 It was the number one priority in the Bush administration to prosecute crime gun crime not

01:20:09 Administrative gun crime real gun crime people that are out committing crimes with guns and we prosecuted a whole bunch of them

01:20:17 I'm I've also been a defense attorney and I've been with families of people that are in prison

01:20:21 I've been to prisons and met with people

01:20:23 anybody that thinks that this guns that are being sold in private sales are

01:20:29 Driving the level of crime we're seeing in our community

01:20:33 It on the list of things that are driving a level of crime

01:20:36 We see our community private gun sales is way down at the bottom

01:20:40 And there's a great number of other things that aren't being discussed here at all that have to be driving it more than I want

01:20:46 you to be able to respond specifically to miss Samson's testimony that

01:20:49 guns make their way from the legal marketplace to the illegal marketplace because it it seems to me hearing that testimony that then you

01:20:58 Wouldn't attack the people who are trying to legally engage in the legal transfer of firearms, right?

01:21:05 You would go after the people engaging in the illegal conduct. But what what's your reaction? That's I agree with that

01:21:11 I think gun crimes are committed by people not guns and we need to focus on the people

01:21:16 That are committing the crimes and we need to be asking ourselves

01:21:19 Why is this person a criminal?

01:21:21 What's their background? I know the answers to a lot of those questions because I've been living it for 35 years

01:21:26 But it doesn't really have much to do with where they acquired the firearm and everything we know about the law

01:21:31 For someone to be a criminal they have to have the intent to commit a crime

01:21:36 They have to have the mens rea right and correct. Do you worry as you look at some of the

01:21:41 Some of the ways in which these laws are being weaponized against people that we're getting away from

01:21:47 Someone actually wanting to commit a crime and indeed people are experiencing this really really harsh regulatory action

01:21:55 When they want to be legally compliant, I would suggest that the tactics that were used in the Malinowski search would be

01:22:03 Incompetent and reckless if it was a very serious crime, it's even much more offensive

01:22:10 Because this is not a serious crime that they suspected

01:22:13 It's probably the lowest level crime that would ever be drug into a United States Attorney's Office. So why did this happen?

01:22:19 Is this just to send a message? Is this someone's incompetence? Do you do you wonder about that?

01:22:26 I wonder about it and that's probably a question for this committee to answer not not me

01:22:31 But I'm certainly concerned about it and it makes this tragedy even harder to take to think that it might be politically motivated

01:22:38 or

01:22:40 For some other reason. Thank you. I see I'm out of time. I go back

01:22:43 Gentlemen's times expired. I now recognize those plasquette for five minutes. Thank you very much

01:22:48 First I want to say it's very interesting that we keep talking about the fact that they were no body cams on

01:22:56 The ATF officers that were there to execute that warrant. What's very interesting and I'd like to

01:23:05 Admit and submit into the record a letter that's been sent from ATF to

01:23:13 Mr. Jim Jordan dated May 21st 2024

01:23:17 From the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms

01:23:19 Objection. Thank you. And in that letter

01:23:22 It reminds this Congress

01:23:26 that in

01:23:28 2021 the department directed its law enforcement components including ATF to develop plans for a phased

01:23:35 implementation of body-worn cameras

01:23:37 But the very thing that they're trying to do

01:23:41 Which is to eliminate the ATF is the reason that they don't have body cams

01:23:47 Because they didn't give them the funding for it

01:23:50 Congress has specifically stated in its appropriations that they don't want to fund ATF

01:23:57 They want to give them the money to be able to operate. They don't want to give Mr. Clickner's

01:24:03 Clients

01:24:05 sufficient ATF officers to be able to

01:24:08 Quickly do the kind of paperwork that they need. That's why they're taking so long

01:24:13 They don't want to give the them the funding to be able to have body cams

01:24:17 And so ATF has only a third of its individuals who are wearing body cams and I have specifically

01:24:24 requested from Congress the funding so that everyone can wear those body cams and

01:24:30 My colleagues have denied that

01:24:33 They're the ones who have said they don't need that money. Let's get rid of ATF

01:24:38 they have legislation to abolish the ATF the elimination of the ATF Act the

01:24:44 abolish the ATF Act and

01:24:47 Eliminate this woke weaponized agency. Everything's woke when you don't like it

01:24:53 Eliminate it and that way

01:24:55 These are the reasons so they want to have it both ways

01:24:58 They want to say that they don't have body cams and that's the reason they're doing and you know

01:25:03 We feel sorry for people who haven't had the body cams, but they're the reason they don't have them

01:25:07 Point it right back at yourself why those body cams weren't on them and and see if that continues to work for you

01:25:17 But you know, we're also talking about

01:25:22 Another thing that was discussed which I found very interesting was that

01:25:26 Individuals who are doing this as hobbies one of the reasons that we change the rule

01:25:33 to the engaged in business rule is

01:25:37 Because an individual who can have as his primary income a large income

01:25:43 Can then sell a lot of firearms and not be considered a firearms dealer?

01:25:51 Because their primary income is more than the firearms

01:25:55 Income that they're doing even if it's voluminous

01:25:58 the amount of firearm sales that they're making if their primary

01:26:03 Income level is higher. And so a couple of years ago in

01:26:08 2022 President Biden signed the bipartisan Safer Communities Act

01:26:13 Which has as was one of its rules a rule with regard to no longer

01:26:19 Can an individual hide?

01:26:21 the fact that they are

01:26:23 by all accounts by a common-law person's accounts an

01:26:27 Actual firearms dealer and not a hobbyist and you know

01:26:32 one of the ways I would look at determining if in fact a person is a hobbyist as opposed to a firearms dealer is

01:26:38 You know, Miss Samson in your opinion is someone who buys and then almost immediately

01:26:44 Resells at least 150 firearms in a three-year period a hobbyist or an unlicensed gun dealer

01:26:51 If that is what a person was doing then they would be more likely to be an unlicensed gun dealer

01:26:56 Is it concerning to you if someone sells 150 firearms and conducts no background check on the individuals who are purchasing those firearms?

01:27:05 Yes, because ATF data shows that those unlicensed and un-background check sales usually end up going to prohibited purchasers

01:27:13 I'd like to submit for the record the actual search warrant the unsealed

01:27:18 application for a search warrant and the affidavit and

01:27:22 Other information therein which on page 28 states that as of February 27 2024

01:27:29 Approximately six firearms are known to have been recovered in the Commission of Crimes. Those are related to the firearms

01:27:36 from that, mr. Malinowski

01:27:40 Purchased and then sold. Mr. Chairman. Good night. No, I'm speaking. Okay. Okay. Thank you

01:27:46 And then

01:27:50 In your opinion, Miss Samson

01:27:52 Would ATF be justified in being concerned when someone sells a firearm to an individual who has been convicted of robbery and is prohibited

01:28:00 from owning a gun

01:28:02 Yes, because selling to a prohibited purchaser is a violation of the law in your opinion

01:28:07 Would ATF be justified in being concerned when selling a firearm that lands in the hands of a 15 year old member of the Nortina

01:28:15 criminal street gang

01:28:18 Yes, thank you. I yield back. I'll lay yields back. Mr. Cummings. I think mr. Stubbe will give you a chance to respond

01:28:23 Mr. Cummings, you want to respond to that? I just wanted to quickly say is this his time now?

01:28:27 Yes, it's his time. The ranking member made a misstatement that's been repeated in the press

01:28:31 I just like to correct it that affidavit refers to approximately I think it's 142 but call it 150 guns

01:28:37 And mr. Malinowski purchased over four years

01:28:39 Which I can tell you I could name a lot of people in Arkansas that have bought 150 firearms in four years

01:28:45 It only documents

01:28:48 Six I believe sales of any firearms in that affidavit not 150

01:28:52 It only it documents that he purchased 150 guns

01:28:55 But you know only documents that he sold about six which you're allowed to do in America, right as far as I know

01:29:00 gentlemen's recognize

01:29:03 Yeah, I mean this this whole

01:29:05 Case is is outrageous to me and in miss Malinowski. I feel like we owe you an apology on behalf of the American government today

01:29:12 Because ATF isn't gonna give you that apology

01:29:15 So we'll do it today on behalf of our government who just I kind of uniquely situated

01:29:22 I have a military background, but my father's a retired sheriff

01:29:25 Did 20 years on SWAT team executed countless search warrants my brother's 10 years on the SWAT team still on the force

01:29:31 Executed countless search warrants and you know you have conversations with them

01:29:35 I have a military background so I kind of understand

01:29:37 Clearing a room and that sort of thing and when they execute a search warrant

01:29:40 They would wait until the individual wasn't at their home where they knew that there was a firearm present to avoid in a situation where?

01:29:48 One of their officers were injured and in your testimony is and it's in the record that they followed mr. Malinowski

01:29:56 They knew where he worked mr. Gates made a very good point that he worked at an airport a secure environment

01:30:01 Where it had been very easy to go in and execute a search warrant and if they were going to arrest him or question him

01:30:07 Do that there where there are no weapons involved it would have been peaceful

01:30:10 Did ATF ever serve him with an administrative cease-and-desist letter?

01:30:15 No, sir. Did he have not the knowledge did he have any?

01:30:20 Knowledge or understanding that he was being investigated for any type of crime well obviously he's not available for me to ask that question

01:30:28 Too, but to the best of my knowledge and based on our investigation the answer is no you and his wife are his wife obviously

01:30:34 Yes, sir since Malinowski did not receive a cease-and-desist letter. Did he ever get any other well?

01:30:39 I just asked that in ATF search warrant application agents indicate that they talked to him on

01:30:43 February 8th just over a month prior to the raid the agents indicate that he attempted to elude them is there any indication that mr.

01:30:50 Malinowski was ever aware that the people following him or law enforcement officers

01:30:53 Know that portion of the affidavit is comical

01:30:57 I

01:30:59 Would you like to expand or maybe embarrassed I mean

01:31:02 It's an irrelevant portion of the affidavit where they talk about traffic and him trying to follow him

01:31:07 It sounds like somebody that isn't a very good driver to me

01:31:10 And I'm familiar with the area that they're describing and everybody has is it in jeopardy when they make that?

01:31:15 Transition, but it has nothing to do with this case and again. It was like six o'clock in the morning

01:31:21 So he doesn't know he's being investigated

01:31:23 There's no like letter that sent that you need to cease and desist of what you're doing or we would like to have a conversation

01:31:27 with you I

01:31:29 It's it's hard with me because I would react the exact same way if somebody

01:31:34 Beat my door in at six o'clock in the morning

01:31:36 I can guarantee you myself and my wife would be approaching the door with a firearm

01:31:41 So it's not out and and you would think that the ATF agents would also conclude that that's a reasonable

01:31:46 Response to your door getting beaten in at six o'clock when you don't know you're being investigated

01:31:50 Does ATF typically have body cams does Little Rock Police Office Department typically have body cams?

01:31:55 Interestingly according to my understanding Little Rock police does wear body cams, but they didn't have them on that morning

01:32:01 And so they were under the supervision of ATF you have to ask ATF why Little Rock didn't have theirs on

01:32:06 But Little Rock typically does have body cams and again my experience with my family

01:32:11 They have body cams and if they would have turned them off in the execution of a search warrant

01:32:16 That would be a very big problem for any law enforcement agent that is involved in an execution of a search warrant

01:32:21 With no body cameras for film of the specific times. They'd be required to have them on

01:32:26 Did ATF ever have an opportunity to serve this search warrant at a time when it would have been less dangerous?

01:32:31 Probably a thousand opportunities that we could sit here and say

01:32:35 I've only got I mean, I'm just I'm just outraged. I mean, mr.

01:32:42 Golden said that it was a it was a no knock it was not a no knock warrant and you stated that there was like

01:32:49 47 seconds or something. So if they did knock at 6 o'clock in the morning

01:32:54 It's reasonable that the Malinowski's didn't hear that because you wouldn't be approaching, you know

01:33:00 Somebody knocked on my door at 6 o'clock in the morning

01:33:02 I wouldn't assume that it's a bad guy because they wouldn't knock

01:33:04 But if you hear a door beating and at 6 o'clock in the morning

01:33:08 There was a such a short period of time between the door getting kicked in and knocked in and then mr. Malinowski

01:33:14 Malinowski being shot that it's reasonable to believe that they didn't hear the knock if there was a knock which I'm

01:33:20 Looking forward to the Judiciary Committee asking all these questions

01:33:23 I hope that the chairman is gonna ask

01:33:25 for and I know they have asked for every officer that was present that day because I would love for this committee with the oversight

01:33:31 authority that we have over the ATF to

01:33:33 Depose every single one of those officers that were present that day and get a sworn deposition from every single one of those people and

01:33:38 Again, mrs. Malinowski. I I'm sorry for your loss and the loss of your family to sue a clear abuse of

01:33:45 Of the rule of law in my opinion I yield back gentleman yields back chair recognizes

01:33:51 Gentleman from New York's witness. Thank you. Mr. Chairman

01:33:55 First I want to express my condolences to mrs. Malinowski

01:33:59 I'm terribly sorry for your loss and for what you had to endure that day

01:34:04 I do want to get into some of the details because I think they're very important

01:34:10 It was actually, you know the the search warrant affidavit

01:34:16 Without going into great detail demonstrates that

01:34:19 Mr. Malinowski did purchase

01:34:22 142 guns from 2019 to February

01:34:26 27 2024

01:34:28 He resold at least nine because we have the six plus the three to the undercover firearm

01:34:36 He also had at various times at various gun shows 12 or 13 firearms on the table

01:34:42 To be sold and he offered one

01:34:46 Witness who was the one convicted of robbery and therefore was a prohibited person

01:34:53 Many more firearms than than what he purchased

01:34:58 Many of these firearms were purchased just days before they were sold

01:35:04 so

01:35:07 Whether or not you want to assert mr. Cummings that this was a hobby of his

01:35:12 You agree that there's certainly probable cause to believe that he was selling guns to

01:35:22 Two individuals without a license and without performing a background check because he didn't have a license

01:35:28 There's there's no allegation that he knowingly sold a gun to anyone that was prohibited

01:35:34 And that's not what probable cause and under ATS interpretation, but you don't have to you don't have to do that

01:35:39 I just said that he

01:35:41 Selling without a license like there's certainly probable cause that he was in the business of selling without a license under ATS

01:35:49 Interpretation of a vague vague regular not yours

01:35:52 So you would say that if you purchase a hundred and forty-two firearms

01:35:56 Within a four-year span as a former US attorney and you have evidence of nine

01:36:01 Sales within that period of time plus many other more weapons offered for sale

01:36:06 You would say as you not the ATF as you as the former US attorney that there is no probable cause

01:36:12 To believe that this person is in the business of selling guns without a license

01:36:16 I'm I would agree that there that could be probable cause thank you

01:36:20 So we have probable cause the Little Rock police is there with the ATF?

01:36:26 they go in and

01:36:29 The one fact that doesn't ever seem to be mentioned here and that the chairman's letter

01:36:37 Does not mention is that an ATF agent was shot?

01:36:44 That correct. Mr. Cummins, that's correct. Okay, so an ATF agent was shot and then in response

01:36:49 Fired back at mr. Malinowski. Is that accurate that is accurate. It's also a tragedy. It is a tragedy

01:36:57 I agree. I agree and and

01:36:59 the

01:37:02 You also agree. I assume I was a

01:37:04 assistant US attorney for 10 years

01:37:09 Secured many many search warrants oversaw the execution of them and arrest warrants. They're routinely done at 6 a.m

01:37:16 Is that right? A lot of warrants are executed at 6 a.m. Whether I agree with that as a

01:37:22 Tactic is another discussion. But yes, that's not uncommon. Okay, I just I want to understand that

01:37:29 We're making a big deal out of the 6 a.m. Here, but that is the standard time that law enforcement

01:37:34 executes arrest warrants and execute search warrants

01:37:38 so I

01:37:40 Certainly am

01:37:43 Sorry that this is a a tragedy that mr. Malinowski died

01:37:47 I'm also sorry that mr. Malinowski shot an ATF agent during a search and

01:37:54 I think if he were truly

01:37:57 Not in the business of selling firearms

01:38:02 The way to respond to a search warrant is to allow your house to be searched and to cooperate

01:38:08 but it is

01:38:11 It is

01:38:13 Insane to me that we are sitting here

01:38:15 Criticizing the ATF because they

01:38:19 Retaliated with deadly force after someone shot an agent

01:38:25 That is what happened here. There was this was not an out-of-the-ordinary

01:38:30 Execution of a search warrant. This is standard operating procedure

01:38:34 Mr. Cummins

01:38:36 Acknowledges that there was probable cause to do it and now there is an investigation of this incident. Is that right? Mr. Cummins?

01:38:44 There has been an investigation. It's been handed over to the local prosecutor

01:38:48 so the local prosecutors investigating it and you know as a prosecutor that none of the witnesses or the

01:38:55 relevant people involved

01:38:57 Are allowed to discuss this publicly while an investigation is going on, correct? I

01:39:03 Don't know what the policy ATF is. Well, was it your policy as a

01:39:07 Prosecutor it certainly was mine. Don't witnesses do not talk to the public while there's an investigation going up one last question as

01:39:15 the US Attorney

01:39:17 Did you ever send a notification to a target of yours who's selling a hundred who's buying?

01:39:22 140 guns selling at least nine of them that hey

01:39:27 You're under investigation just a heads up. I

01:39:29 Hope I would have you would have you would have reached out and said hey, by the way

01:39:34 I'm asking you can go ahead and destroy all and hide all the evidence

01:39:38 You would have done that you notified the targets that you know

01:39:41 The gentleman has expired the gentleman from North yields back the gentleman from North Carolina is recognized for five. Mr

01:39:46 Cummins with some economy of time. Do you wish to respond to the last barrage?

01:39:49 Well only to say that nobody disputes that when a law enforcement is fired upon that they have a right to fire back

01:39:56 The point is that the everything that created that situation was incompetent unnecessary and reckless and it defied the law because

01:40:04 As a former assistant, you know, the Fourth Amendment cases that allow

01:40:08 Either a no-knock or what I would call a tap-and-go

01:40:12 Type entry with no real real waiting for someone to come to the door only justified

01:40:18 By exigent circumstances that do not exist in this case. So in my opinion as a former US Attorney

01:40:24 This was a completely illegal search

01:40:26 because of the forced entry and the lack of time they gave the occupants of a

01:40:31 Fairly large home to get up at 6 in the morning

01:40:33 the law requires them to wait for it enough time for a

01:40:37 Reasonable amount of time for someone to come to the door and admit them in

01:40:41 My time you've had plenty and mr. Cunningham, I appreciate that very effective

01:40:50 Rebuttal here's what's interesting to me. Is this hearing evolves? I

01:40:55 Hear mr. Goldman

01:40:58 Defending the practice that he says is engaged in every day and

01:41:03 earlier on

01:41:06 The ranking member invoked the Breonna Taylor episode and I've just been sitting here

01:41:10 Reviewing it. Mr. Goldman said earlier on. Well, this wasn't a no-knock warrant

01:41:15 Okay, what's the difference but in the situation if they knock and they blow in you know in 20 seconds

01:41:20 Or it's a no no in fact in the Breonna Taylor case. That wasn't a no-knock warrant

01:41:25 They said they knocked and waited 45 seconds and they went in

01:41:29 Here's something that's interesting

01:41:32 In the Breonna Taylor thing she was killed on March 13 2020 in that it was execution of a search warrant

01:41:40 Just like this one

01:41:42 Police officer first police officer was fired June 20 in September 2020

01:41:50 Um

01:41:51 Louisville entered into a 12 million dollar settlement with the family. Have you are you in have you been made any?

01:41:57 Overtures by the Department of Justice to settle liability against the government on behalf of mr. Malinowski's family

01:42:04 No, sir in in in September

01:42:07 also, one of the police officers was indicted for

01:42:12 wanton willful endangerment or wanton endangerment in

01:42:17 a

01:42:19 Second officer was fired in January 2021. A third officer was retired in April 2021

01:42:27 Oh, I left out in October 2020 grand jury testimony was leaked

01:42:31 in 20 and later in 2021 the DOJ indicted four officers and

01:42:37 Even now it's retrying one who were for the hung jury. I

01:42:42 Don't I mean, I don't understand the the difference. I don't understand my colleagues

01:42:47 reaction that

01:42:49 You've talked for a long time I'm gonna talk during my time, okay

01:42:55 Maybe you can you can

01:42:59 provide context for your

01:43:01 egregious double standard

01:43:04 No one that I recall on the Republican side when the Brianna by the way

01:43:08 You said this is interfering in the process to have this hearing the first time Congress had a hearing was in June

01:43:15 2020 over the Brianna Taylor episode there was no concern about interfering

01:43:20 The concern was about the use of this kind of tactic to enter unnecessarily and jeopardize people's lives

01:43:26 Now suddenly that seems to be of no concern whatsoever. Can you account for that different difference? Mr. Cummins?

01:43:32 The facts are very similar. Although that was a drug investigation and under the case law

01:43:37 They are allowed to go in faster because of the potential for destruction of it

01:43:41 Yeah, so in this case, we're talking about conduct that the law would say is malum prohibit them not malum in say in other words

01:43:48 What what's with the reason they entered this this residence in jeopardize this entire family include miss Malinowski. You have no

01:43:56 Allegations against her and shot. This man dead is because he didn't have the proper license for the business

01:44:02 They say he was engaged in and it's even disputed about whether he was engaged in that business, correct?

01:44:07 and in that case miss Brianna Taylor's boyfriend was

01:44:11 on was without any contradiction engaging in illicit drug activity and

01:44:18 Receiving and deal he was a drug dealer and it was carrying it on in her in her place of residence. I can't account for

01:44:25 the the the

01:44:27 Gross disparity except that Americans hear a lot and I hear a lot back about concern about double standard of justice

01:44:36 Is there a double standard of justice here? Mr. Cummins in those two episodes there appears to be and that causes a loss of trust in

01:44:44 Government and in these agencies

01:44:47 Mr. Clickner

01:44:50 The only place I see reaction besides a hearing like this exposing stuff is is what is

01:44:55 that attorneys general across the nation have sued over the

01:44:59 The the two rules the business engaging in the business rule that's at issue here

01:45:03 I guess really and the pistol-brace rule. Why is that the only

01:45:06 Recourse that people have have state attorneys general file litigation

01:45:10 Don't understand your question congressman. Are you saying that they should be my times expired? Anyway, we're going to get one. I'm ran out

01:45:17 Thank You mr. Chairman, I'm rephrase the question here's what I'm saying

01:45:23 Congress doesn't seem to be able to do anything to press back against this overreach

01:45:27 At least it hasn't including under Republican leadership

01:45:32 The only thing that seems to be available to people for the government to do to provide recourse is I see a state attorneys general

01:45:38 Out filing lawsuits in great numbers 21 states in one case 24

01:45:43 Is that the only recourse that people have can expect from their government?

01:45:48 In the response to these kinds of abuses it apparently is the only one they have but it's not what they should expect

01:45:53 We should expect that the administrative agency is reined in a little bit here

01:45:58 Thank You mr. Chairman, we're trying we're trying to chair recognizes gentlelady from

01:46:03 Texas

01:46:05 For five minutes. Thank you so much. Mr. Chair and

01:46:08 The vigor is back and forth

01:46:10 Regarding Breonna Taylor. First of all, I do appreciate you being here and you're answering of the questions

01:46:17 You know, I do want to make sure that before we go down this road

01:46:22 I clarify some things that were different in the Breonna Taylor case

01:46:25 number one

01:46:28 The officers were considered to have botched what took place on that day because they fired blindly into a home

01:46:36 meaning that they

01:46:38 initiated some sort of deadly force and the only information that they had was

01:46:42 Allegedly that this was the place of some sort of drug activity at that point in time

01:46:47 You ended up having her boyfriend who returned fire

01:46:51 Believing that someone was breaking in it is very different when you are returning fire

01:46:57 Versus initiating fire and there was no need to do so in addition to that

01:47:01 No, knock warrants and knock warrants are basically a couple of seconds of difference if I'm going to be honest

01:47:09 But one of the things that I worked on in the state

01:47:12 Legislature was actually making sure that we could reform no knock warrants

01:47:17 Because it is a risk not only to the people in the homes

01:47:22 Especially in a state like Texas where everyone is allowed to have a gun, but it's also a huge risk to law enforcement

01:47:28 So being able to do this effectively

01:47:31 This is dangerous work that law enforcement engage in every single day

01:47:35 And I do want to be clear that I am always sorry for the loss of life. I don't care about the race

01:47:40 I don't care about any of those things and honestly, I believe in the criminal justice system

01:47:45 I believe that if someone is accused of something they should have their day in court

01:47:49 So I do want to say that I take issue with anyone losing their life

01:47:54 Period even if it's somebody that's accused of a crime and I believe that they should go through due process and have an opportunity

01:48:00 But in this particular set of circumstances, we know that if somebody shoots at me

01:48:06 In fact, some would argue that last week. I had a colleague that decided she wanted to shoot at me. I'm going to shoot back and

01:48:13 That's what happened here. But what's more frustrating for me in this hearing?

01:48:19 And what seems to be a pattern is that we continue to attempt to litigate pending cases

01:48:24 We saw that we had one of the witnesses in the Trump trial

01:48:29 He came and testified before us last week and then he went and testified this week in front of the the judiciary

01:48:37 And then we know that this is still a pending case and I do want to afford an opportunity

01:48:43 For those that will be granted access to discovery video

01:48:48 Whatever video doesn't exist as well as any statements

01:48:52 depositions all those things some folk that have access to all the information and

01:48:58 ultimately if this needs to go to court having a

01:49:01 Jury that will make a decision based upon the facts and the evidence

01:49:05 So with that I want to make sure that we move on to something else

01:49:11 Which is the reality that in fact, let me do this before I run out of time

01:49:17 Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record

01:49:21 97% annual gun owner October 2023 report which details these and other statistics pertaining to gun owners

01:49:29 Use on common-sense gun control policies and I'm gonna go back up to what those views are

01:49:33 Thank you so much

01:49:37 97% a bipartisan group of gun owners and non gun owners

01:49:40 Which conducts research on gun safety policies found that with regard to common-sense gun policies?

01:49:47 66% of gun owners well over the simple majority support keeping guns out of the hands of violent criminals

01:49:52 70% of gun owners said they wish we would enact some kind of gun reform

01:49:58 66% of gun owners for instance think guns should be restricted on school grounds and 67% think that they should be restricted in

01:50:06 Government buildings and I will tell you that I fall into those categories because I am a licensed gun owner

01:50:12 Yet despite the majority of Americans and the majority of gun owners

01:50:16 Republicans last week passed a bill out of the house that eliminates states ability to regulate firearms on private property

01:50:23 Government buildings playgrounds and gun-free school zones if that's not hypocrisy

01:50:29 I honestly don't know what it is and it doesn't end there as the party

01:50:34 Self-proclaiming itself as law enforcement's biggest advocate and supporter Republicans on this very committee have introduced legislation to abolish the law enforcement

01:50:43 Agency entirely miss Sampson. I have a few yes or no questions. I may only get to one yes or no

01:50:49 Are you familiar with the role of ATF? Yes, and to your understanding the ATF is in fact law enforcement, correct?

01:50:56 Yes, this ATF duties include preventing incidents investigating cases and recommending prosecution for issues of

01:51:03 Violent crimes and weapons for gangs and career criminals. Yes narcotic traffickers

01:51:08 Yes domestic and international arms traffickers. Yes armed human traffickers. Yes terrorist. Yes

01:51:15 And with that I will yield

01:51:17 Yeah, Brian Malinowski was none of those

01:51:20 The gentlelady yields back the gentlelady from Florida is recognized. Thank you. Mr. Chairman

01:51:27 I am

01:51:29 First and foremost very very sorry miss Malinowski as the wife of a SWAT medic

01:51:36 From one wife to another I am deeply apologetic and I can't even begin to

01:51:41 Understand the pain and suffering that you and your family are going through

01:51:45 My husband as I said who is a SWAT medic when we heard about this case

01:51:51 He was so thoroughly disgusted and heartbroken

01:51:54 That is truly I believe not a reflection on the good men and women in law enforcement

01:51:59 That intend to do their jobs the best they can and we are so very sorry

01:52:04 Mr. Chairman, I am also deeply disappointed that the discussion today has been centered around ways to restrict

01:52:11 constitutional rights to law-abiding citizens

01:52:15 Instead of the mental health crisis that we face in this country, which is a massive driver of crime in this country

01:52:24 Also, very little has been talked about when we're discussing the overgrown

01:52:31 overly aggressive and woefully inadequate administrative state and

01:52:35 So with that I'm gonna jump right into

01:52:38 Mr. Kleckner. Thank you for returning back to Congress to provide testimony and in a March 10th

01:52:45 2023 Judiciary Subcommittee on the administrative state you address the ATF stabilizing rule

01:52:53 Brace rule in your testimony

01:52:55 You said quote this rule effectively gives the ATF the power to determine who is a felon by the stroke of a bureaucrat's pen

01:53:01 This is not an appropriate enforcement of law. It is tyranny end quote and I agree with you

01:53:08 What is sad is that in this rule?

01:53:11 We are seeing a microcosm of what is happening at other federal agencies

01:53:15 The American people are under assault by the Biden administration's regulatory regime from all corners of the federal government

01:53:23 That is why I introduced the reins act as many of you know, the bill would address regulatory overreach

01:53:29 By requiring every new major rule proposed by federal agencies

01:53:34 Be approved by Congress before going into effect. This is the reassertion of

01:53:40 Article 1 authority that is how the founding fathers intended not unelected nameless faceless bureaucrats

01:53:47 arbitrarily dictating law

01:53:49 After all, we know that Americans pay two trillion dollars a year in additional compliance costs economic loss

01:53:56 for this aggressive regulatory regime the stabilizing brace rule and ATF zero tolerance policy are prime examples of

01:54:04 Regulations that not only impose compliance costs on firearm retailers, but infringe on Americans basic Second Amendment rights

01:54:12 So I'm gonna go down the line and I'm gonna come right back to you. Mr. Cummins

01:54:16 Yes, or no should federal agencies be able to shift criminal statutes and rewrite law

01:54:21 No

01:54:25 Thank You miss Samson

01:54:27 That's not what happened here. They're important. I did not ask that I asked for a yes or no

01:54:31 Should federal agencies be arbitrarily able to write law?

01:54:35 No, and that's not what happened here. Thank you. Mr. Graham

01:54:38 No congresswoman, mr. Kleckner. No

01:54:43 Thank you. Mr. Kleckner. My understanding is that this rule disregards ATF's own approval of stabilizing braces in 2012, correct?

01:54:49 This current zero tolerance policy rule. I'm not sure what you're asking regarding how they

01:54:55 Classified the pistol braces as an accessory

01:54:58 Therefore not subject to full ATF regulatory standards, right?

01:55:03 So in the time since they approved them in 2012 to today ATF has done a full 180 on the issue and has chosen to

01:55:11 Impose erroneous regulations on firearm accessories that were originally intended for disabled veterans, correct?

01:55:17 That's true and upon which

01:55:19 People relied upon their opinion when they were acting and they're now in trouble for

01:55:23 Absolutely, and the owners of these farms would now be committing a felony if they did not register surrender or destroy the accessory

01:55:31 Correct, which means their right to even possess a firearm for the rest of their life is now gone. Exactly

01:55:36 Did Congress ever approve this legislatively? No, ma'am

01:55:40 Can you quickly?

01:55:42 Outline the specific penalties for failing to register a pistol brace under this rule quickly. Yes felony

01:55:48 Financial as well

01:55:52 Oh for sure

01:55:53 Defending yourself financial costs losing the right to protect yourself or have firearms in the future all those things, right?

01:55:58 And so now that this rule is being litigated in the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals

01:56:02 Considering the rule has criminal implications. Can you speak to the risks associated with circumventing the legislative process in this case?

01:56:10 The the risks now going forward or even companies don't know what they're supposed to do because it changes back and forth so many times

01:56:15 I think people are afraid as someone said earlier about what they're supposed to do what they're gonna get in trouble with

01:56:20 Whose guidance are supposed to follow? It's all unclear. I appreciate that and I know my time is expiring

01:56:26 I have a list of questions for you. Mr. Graham that I will submit for the record

01:56:30 but I think it is clear that what we are seeing today particularly under the ATF is a gross overreach a

01:56:35 weaponization of the federal government in its true form

01:56:39 It's something that I think Republicans Democrats and all Americans should be equally concerned about with that I yield

01:56:45 Generally, generally yields back the gentlelady from Wyoming is recognized. I'm going to continue with that same plan of questioning. Mr

01:56:53 Kleckner this subcommittees last hearing in fact was on the Biden administration's use of lawfare

01:56:58 against political opponents and we've seen that play out at a variety of ways including in the

01:57:05 Case that's been ongoing in New York City as well as what's been happening in Georgia and Florida, etc

01:57:11 But each and every ATF rule subjects more Americans to legal compliance

01:57:16 Which if ignored even unknowingly imposes criminal and monetary penalties as well as additional fees and legal costs

01:57:23 Mr. Kleckner, do you think that the rulemaking agenda is an attempt to employ lawfare against Americans who stand for the Second Amendment?

01:57:29 I do

01:57:31 Okay, and if so, what does that say about where we stand when the Biden administration

01:57:34 Considers its citizens who believe it and in and adhere to the Constitution as its political enemies

01:57:40 That is scary if that's their motivation and it's it's very difficult to comply with for sure in December

01:57:47 2023 the ATF Little Rock Field Office received a case referral for mr

01:57:53 Malinowski in the same month that opened its investigation and spent the next several months

01:57:58 Surveilling his activities including tailing him and placing trackers on his car

01:58:02 I find this absolutely frightening that we have agencies who are willing to go to this extent with a law-abiding citizen

01:58:09 The ATF knew his movements his schedule where he was and when he was there and therefore the ATF knew when he was home and when

01:58:16 He wasn't meaning that the ATF decided to execute the search warrant when he was home

01:58:21 Even though they knew that he would have firearms in the home. And in fact, mr

01:58:26 Cummings you have uncovered the fact that the ATF team members

01:58:29 Gathered to execute the search warrant the week before the raid but then changed their plan when they learned that mr

01:58:36 Malinowski would not be home. In other words, they wanted him there and they wanted him there bad

01:58:41 Mr. Graham is this standard operating procedure for the ATF to ensure that the target is there when they would execute

01:58:48 This kind of a search warrant or can they do it without the the intent the target being in the home?

01:58:55 Adam congresswoman

01:58:57 Unfortunately, I have no first-hand knowledge of the warrant process and or how they are executed. Well, mr. Cummins. What about you?

01:59:04 Do you think that that would be standard operating procedure to wait until the the gentleman was there at one o'clock in the morning knowing?

01:59:10 That he had guns versus just going ahead and executing the search warrant when he wasn't there. Well, clearly it's a search warrant

01:59:16 He didn't need to be there

01:59:16 I think they definitely wanted him there and I think that the this does happen in federal law enforcement

01:59:23 Quite a bit. They want the target there because they want to surprise me

01:59:27 This is part of the reason they go at 6 in the morning. They want to surprise them

01:59:29 They want them in their nightclothes. They want their hair stand up

01:59:32 They want them scared angry shock and then they want to violate their Fifth Amendment right to not incriminate themselves before they remember

01:59:38 They have a Sixth Amendment right to call their lawyer. So it's kind of a it's the trifecta

01:59:42 They want to violate three constitutional rights the fourth fifth and sixth all in one scoop and in this case it didn't work out for

01:59:49 Well, and it seems to me that the overarching issue here is that the government should have standards in place to ensure the safety of all

01:59:56 citizens in the conduct of its investigations and actions even when

02:00:00 Criminal activity is suspected in the case of execution of a search warrant for mr

02:00:06 Molinowski the ATF appears to have deviated from this premise and standards which are in place and in fact ended up

02:00:14 executing mr. Molinowski himself

02:00:18 That's exactly right

02:00:20 The Constitution secures our rights by placing limits on the federal government's power

02:00:25 even when Americans an American citizen is suspected of being engaged in unlawful behavior as you just

02:00:31 Indicated the Fourth Amendment secure citizens against unreasonable search and seizure the Fifth Amendment

02:00:36 ensures due process the Sixth Amendment of guarantees has certain rights for criminal defendants in the Eighth Amendment is again that it provides against

02:00:44 protects us against

02:00:46 cruel and unusual punishment

02:00:48 Mr. Cummins, is it fair to say that a responsible execution of a search warrants is one of the primary?

02:00:55 Mechanisms that we have in place to guarantee an American's rights in criminal proceedings

02:01:02 I can't imagine what the British were doing to people that would be worse than what happened to Brian

02:01:07 Malinowski on March 19th that would have brought about the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution

02:01:11 Mr. Graham, do you have any recommendations of how to?

02:01:16 Address the situation we're describing today to ensure that this does not happen again

02:01:21 What kind of reforms should Congress take up to make sure that we can protect mr. Molinowski and other people like him?

02:01:28 Adam Congresswoman once again having limited exposure to the warrant process and know the execution

02:01:35 I would defer to Congress creating whatever laws regulations

02:01:40 They deem appropriate to be delegated to the appropriate enforcement agency, mr

02:01:45 Mr.

02:01:47 Collector, what about you? What recommendations would you have?

02:01:50 I agree with Mr. Graham. I think Congress's oversight here is really important

02:01:54 I think what you asked me earlier about the administrative overreach is these administrative agencies specifically going against what Congress

02:02:01 Has put into place like the Gun Control Act or like the willfulness requirement

02:02:05 between the bup stocks and the

02:02:08 Pistol braces in those things what we have our agencies who are intentionally adopting vague rules and regulations in order to criminalize lawful and

02:02:16 Constitutional conduct it needs to end. I appreciate you all being here. I am sorry for your loss as well. Miss Malinowski

02:02:23 We have to expose this these types of activities so that we can prevent them from happening in the future with that

02:02:30 I yield back. General Lee yields back up. Just let the witnesses know we have just a few more minutes. Mr.

02:02:34 Mr. Davidson. I don't know if Mr. Frye will be able to join us and then a couple comments or

02:02:38 Minutes with Miss Plaskett, Rankin, Menner, and myself and then we'll be done

02:02:42 So you need a break obviously let us know but we should be done here in the next 15 minutes

02:02:46 It's sort of the goal. Gentleman from Ohio is recognized. I thank the chairman. Thank our witnesses and Mr. Malinowski

02:02:52 Please accept my sincere apologies and deepest sympathies

02:02:55 this is something that was avoidable and

02:02:58 I'm encouraged frankly because I hear colleagues that were once highly concerned about

02:03:05 Warrant practices and held hearings when they were in the majority about criminal justice reform

02:03:10 May actually be willing to do it instead of politicize it

02:03:14 I felt as a guy who was not part of the Judiciary Committee on Financial Services and Foreign Affairs

02:03:18 And only on this because we have seen abuses of the Fourth Amendment the creeching that creep into your financial privacy

02:03:26 we've seen weaponized government go after every kind of

02:03:31 Nook and cranny they can for what have historically been viewed as law-abiding citizens

02:03:36 restraints against general warrants so John Adams said general warrants I

02:03:41 Swept up whoever might have been present in the square on certain days

02:03:46 These kinds of things that went on are part of what led to the revolution

02:03:51 So it was an abuse of privacy if you look at it part of the the concern for warrants

02:03:58 Is that they don't take the least?

02:04:00 Risky means possible which does expose officers to risk, but it exposes not just

02:04:06 You know people that maybe you do have probable cause to suspect a crime

02:04:11 But it exposes their family members and others to unnecessary risk and maybe there is a way that we should look at

02:04:17 You know the intent of the Fourth Amendment that it would minimize

02:04:21 The risk here it seems that there was a much less

02:04:25 Invasive way to solve the crime that was alleged here

02:04:29 And you would think that because of the Biden administration's focus on this crime that this was the big crime wave that's sweeping the country

02:04:38 That apparently the only reason we have guns on the street are because people like

02:04:43 Mr.. Malinowski

02:04:45 That you know but for mr. Malinowski and people like that

02:04:48 You know the streets would be safe in Washington DC people wouldn't be getting carjacked and robbed at gunpoint

02:04:54 Chicago wouldn't see massive waves of murders it

02:04:57 It's pistol braces. It must be the pistol braces

02:05:01 Because they're going after the pistol braces. I mean

02:05:04 There is no basis

02:05:07 In terms of the crime that the Biden administration is going after I think that's why the public is so concerned you're targeting people

02:05:14 In part I think because of political ideology

02:05:18 President Biden's recent executive order concerning firearms dealers was described by the White House themselves as getting quote as

02:05:25 Close to universal background checks as possible without additional

02:05:30 Legislation in quote I did not recall Congress voting on universal background checks on the contrary

02:05:37 This is a bureaucrat at an agency passing pseudo laws fake laws, and they're using them to effectively

02:05:46 Force defendants to spend their treasure

02:05:49 Defending against a crime that hasn't even become crime

02:05:53 In in the normal way by law so mr. Kloegner what steps can be taken to defund and defeat these fake laws originating it

02:06:01 The ATF in particular I think Congress needs to hold them accountable

02:06:05 You know and to point that out one of the main ways we do that is with appropriations

02:06:12 So it's not just whether they're funded, but what can they do with the funds?

02:06:15 And part of that is timely we're going back into appropriations having passed on holding

02:06:23 Accountable the agency this time. I think hopefully we'll find the resolve to do that this time in the next and the next path

02:06:30 Mr.. Cummins look. I just wanted to close out with you

02:06:32 Because you're highlighting an important case you've had a background where you are familiar with the warrant process

02:06:38 And I think not just here in this case you pointed out look it is a practice

02:06:44 Is it a good practice to knock at 6 a.m.. And come in and it you know you would think that you know

02:06:50 El Chapo, maybe no knock warrants. There's a time and a place, but how do they weigh the right time in place for those kind of tactics?

02:06:59 Versus you know maybe less intrusive less risky tactics

02:07:03 Well, we've given great deference to law enforcement to choose their tactics

02:07:07 And we are concerned about law enforcement officer safety and what so that's a good reason to do that

02:07:12 But I do believe we've over militarized our law enforcement. I have great concerns about that

02:07:16 I think we do this this way too often and we need to take a hard look at it in this particular case

02:07:21 I don't think they did lawfully at all and there's zero justification

02:07:25 But even that said they what law enforcement does this kind of thing quite a bit you point out that there's there's surveillance for a while

02:07:32 And it wasn't like an exigent circumstance

02:07:35 There was an evidence that was going to be flushed down the toilet or disposed of there was evidence that would be physically present

02:07:41 On site and there were lots of periods of time where mr.

02:07:45 Malinowski was in a place where he could have been detained in question could have been brought to the

02:07:50 Residents or could have been caught as he's walking into or about to walk out of a home

02:07:54 So there were lots of less invasive means and I just hope that we can find a way in statute or in practice

02:08:00 To be able to say let's do it that way more often. Let's not

02:08:04 Violate the civil liberties of our citizens you know with that I yield back

02:08:11 Gentlemen yields back the ranking members recognized for closing

02:08:14 Comments or questions. I just want to thank the witnesses for being here. This is Molinowski

02:08:20 I see the pain that you are still in and I pray that there's

02:08:24 Resolution for you and your family and I thank you that I see that you have a support system with you

02:08:31 Thank you to those who are there with you providing that

02:08:34 support to you in this time I

02:08:38 Have nothing at this time further I would however one

02:08:43 request

02:08:45 Introduce it for the record the to demand two letters sent to point-blank firearms

02:08:50 Being on the demand to letter program for two years in a row

02:08:53 Means that a business sold 25 or more firearms in a business year that were connected to a crime

02:08:59 Thank you, and then I would also remind my colleagues about that appropriations process that removing funding from ATF

02:09:08 individuals on this committee who pass or want to have laws passed such as the

02:09:13 Elimination of ATF and the abolition of ATF is not the way to support

02:09:20 Regulating guns in this country that we need to do this comprehensively a step in the right direction was the

02:09:30 bipartisan gun legislation that was passed in 2022 there's more work to be done and

02:09:38 With that I'd be a black

02:09:40 Mr. Cummings when government changes the rules without a vote of Congress is is is that the weaponization of government when you have these agencies?

02:09:47 Unilaterally changed the law without a vote of the legislative body is that is that would you call that the weaponization of government?

02:09:53 Seems that way to me. Mr. Clackton. Would you agree? I do

02:09:57 Mr. Graham

02:09:59 Chairman that's a department doing what they're directed to do sir. Okay, let me let me say this one

02:10:06 so when the ATF unilaterally changed the definition of what a pistol brace and how that worked and

02:10:11 Overnight made law-abiding citizens then felons. He that turned the gun in or you're a felon

02:10:17 Is that the weaponization of government mr. Clark it sure is especially when

02:10:23 We don't know that every American that had one of those got the message

02:10:26 Exactly, and the same thing seems to be happening. It seems to have happened in the case of mr. Malinowski

02:10:33 The ATF decided to change the definition of what an FFL what what a licensee was was was from

02:10:40 principal livelihood to someone who's earning a profit and

02:10:43 But it's even worse because they didn't have the definition changed and enacted

02:10:49 When this terrible incident happened with mr. Malinowski

02:10:54 That to me is the I mean that is the weaponization of government

02:10:58 Unilaterally making changes without it going through the legislative branch of government the way our system is supposed to work the checks and balances how they're

02:11:05 Supposed to work and in the case we're talking about so much today. They hadn't even fully made that change

02:11:10 They didn't even follow their own rule for goodness sake and we haven't we have an American who's no longer with us because of that

02:11:17 Mr. Cummings response I

02:11:19 Agree with everything you said let me ask you one other question

02:11:24 Did the AT so Little Rock police were involved in the raid on the Malinowski home? We know they were present

02:11:30 We don't know exactly what their role was

02:11:32 And 10 carloads of agent now we've seen the video of all the carloads coming from the Walmart parking lot to the

02:11:40 Malinowski neighborhood we've seen that video

02:11:43 Did and and with the Little Rock a Little Rock police officers wearing body cams

02:11:49 On the morning of this raid on the Malinowski ordering what we've been told nobody had body cams on even though Little Rock police

02:11:55 Are equipped with body cams that was my next question. They're supposed to wear them a little right. That's my understanding

02:12:00 I'm not 100% sure about that. Do you believe that the ATF told Little Rock police?

02:12:06 Officers not to have their body cams on or not to have them engaged when local PD is supporting a federal agency

02:12:12 Typically, they're taking orders from the federal agency

02:12:15 So I would presume I don't know that ATF instructed them to not wear but that would be a logical presumption as a guy was

02:12:20 Former US Attorney way it works federal law enforcement

02:12:22 We're consistent with my my understanding how that those relationships work

02:12:27 And again, we're back to the question you asked in your opening statement a couple hours ago. Why?

02:12:30 Why would ATF tell Little Rock don't follow your own rules. We're not gonna follow our rules. We don't want you following your rules

02:12:36 We don't want any video footage of what we're about to do at the Malinowski home

02:12:42 An upstanding citizen by all accounts your whole testimony

02:12:46 highest paid official Little Rock municipal government

02:12:50 Why would they do that?

02:12:52 We have no idea. Yeah, but we got to find the answer to that because this is I mean

02:12:57 This is this is the weaponization of government if I've ever seen it

02:13:01 We thank you all for being here today or your testimony and I got to say something official here

02:13:09 That concludes today's hearing we thank our witness for appearing for the subcommittee today without objection all members will have five legislative days to submit additional

02:13:15 Written questions for the witnesses or additional materials for the record without objection. The hearing is adjourned

02:13:20 [BLANK_AUDIO]

BREAKING NEWS: Jim Jordan Leads Weaponization Committee Hearing To Probe ATF Overreach

Category

Transcript

Recommended