00:00 - Let's talk about money.
00:01 How important is financial health to your overall health?
00:06 What is it a reflection of if you can't make ends meet?
00:10 What does it mean about your physical, mental challenges?
00:13 - Well, we're having huge arguments about that
00:18 in our culture, aren't we?
00:19 The research evidence seems to suggest that,
00:25 although there's some debate about this,
00:26 that once you have enough money
00:28 so that bill collectors aren't chasing you around,
00:31 then having more money doesn't help that much.
00:33 So money helps stave off the worst
00:37 of uncertainties at minimum.
00:40 What does it indicate if you're struggling?
00:42 Well, that's really an individual question.
00:45 And it's harsh sometimes.
00:46 I mean, one thing that happens to be the case
00:48 is that people who have higher levels of fluid intelligence,
00:51 which has a strong biological component,
00:53 tend to make more money.
00:56 Why? - Fluid intelligence meaning?
00:57 - Well, it's really the capacity to conceptualize
01:01 and solve problems abstractly.
01:03 And it's partly associated with verbal fluency,
01:08 because we tend to think in words,
01:10 but there's more to it than that.
01:12 And so all things considered,
01:13 people who can get somewhere faster and better
01:16 make more money for obvious reasons.
01:18 And that's rough.
01:19 That's very rough.
01:20 It's built into the fabric of our biology.
01:24 So if you're having a hard time making ends meet,
01:29 I mean, I think the first thing to ask yourself
01:32 is what stupid things are you doing
01:34 that are definitely getting in your way?
01:36 And you can actually ask yourself that.
01:38 And it's like a prayer in some sense.
01:40 Apparently, I'm doing some stupid things
01:46 because my life is not going very well.
01:48 Maybe I could realize a couple of them
01:52 in a manner that's not so harsh it crushes me.
01:55 And if you really meditate on that, you will get an answer.
01:58 And it won't be an answer you like,
02:01 but maybe it'll be an answer you can stand.
02:03 It's like, well, you drink too much.
02:05 Well, you already know that
02:08 because you regret what you do while you're drinking
02:10 and other people have told you.
02:11 It's like, well, you're not doing very well in life.
02:14 Stop drinking.
02:16 That's hard.
02:18 And so you clear out the obstacles that are in your path
02:22 that you can see as to the best of your ability.
02:25 See, 'cause what happens is people suffer
02:27 and then they judge existence and they say,
02:29 well, look, it's arbitrary and unfair
02:30 and everything should burn.
02:32 But, and you know, yeah, it's an understandable response,
02:37 but maybe it's unbearable
02:39 because you're doing too many stupid things.
02:41 Hopefully that's the case
02:44 because then you could make it better.
02:47 Right?
02:47 Maybe there's some hope, maybe not.
02:49 Maybe everything is pointless
02:51 and misery is the inescapable final reality.
02:56 But I wouldn't jump to that conclusion
02:58 before you try to stop doing all the things
03:01 you are doing that are stupid,
03:02 that you know that are stupid,
03:03 that you could stop doing.
03:06 Right?
03:07 - I find that people's self-worth drops
03:10 when they don't win the game of money.
03:13 So how does your ability to manage money,
03:18 even dealing with the fear many people have of money
03:20 and the bill collector coming after the money,
03:22 correlate with their self-worth?
03:24 - Well, people have, well, first of all,
03:26 money is a marker in some ways of status.
03:30 And we are very sensitive to status distinctions
03:34 and that's partly because the serotonin system,
03:38 which is a master neurochemical control system,
03:41 it dampens down negative emotion.
03:45 Now, the higher you are in a hierarchy, a social hierarchy,
03:49 the more the serotonin system
03:51 dampens down negative emotion.
03:53 - Reinforces.
03:54 - Yeah, well, it's also because the higher you are
03:57 in a hierarchy, in principle, the more protected you are
04:00 and the less reason there is to be stressed and afraid.
04:03 And so people see money as a marker of status
04:07 and their conception of their own status
04:10 modulates their sensitivity to negative emotion.
04:14 And when people say they wanna be happy,
04:16 they really don't mean that.
04:17 They mean they don't wanna be anxious and miserable
04:20 because negative emotion is so powerful.
04:23 And so anything that indicates status
04:25 that affects negative emotion is a primary concern.
04:28 Now, you don't wanna overvalue money
04:31 because it's not the only marker
04:33 and even not the only appropriate marker
04:35 of genuine status, right?
04:37 So you wanna get your status conceptions straight,
04:40 if you can.
04:41 You don't wanna undervalue it either because,
04:44 because it's the unit of exchange
04:47 for people's attention and labor.
04:50 It's crucially important.
04:51 And so, you know, it's not money
04:54 that's the root of all evil.
04:55 It's the love of money.
04:56 It's when money is put in the highest place, right?
05:00 It's not money itself.
05:01 - So within a couple,
05:05 when you don't like the way your partner's managing money
05:08 or making money, which is a major cause of discontent,
05:12 probably the number one reason couples have serious problems
05:15 that they shouldn't be fighting over,
05:16 but they do 'cause they can't manage
05:18 the love of money differences.
05:20 What are you supposed to do?
05:21 If you're the person having the problem,
05:22 you know, you examine yourself, you make the prayer,
05:24 which I think is a very wise tactic.
05:26 What do you do when the person you love dearly
05:28 is just unable to provide
05:31 in a way that you think is appropriate?
05:33 - I don't know how to answer that
05:36 because it depends so much
05:38 on the specifics of the situation.
05:40 I mean, in general, what you have to do
05:43 before you embark on a discussion like that
05:45 is maybe have a discussion with your partner
05:47 about how both of you should think about money
05:49 if you were thinking straight, right?
05:52 Well, how valuable is this?
05:53 How does it relate to other things
05:55 that we regard as important?
05:57 And then maybe you sketch out what you would consider.
06:00 If you're having a dispute with your partner,
06:03 one really useful thing to do is to ask them what they want.
06:06 It's like, okay, well, really, it's like, okay,
06:08 you have a problem.
06:10 What do you see as a solution?
06:12 Well, I don't know.
06:13 I don't know the answer to that.
06:14 It's like, no, no, no.
06:16 I need to know your conditions of satisfaction
06:18 before I can engage in this argument.
06:21 I need to know that there is something I could do,
06:23 no matter how difficult it might be,
06:25 that would actually make this damn problem go away
06:28 or I won't even engage in the conversation.
06:31 What do you want?
06:33 Well, and maybe the person has to talk to you a bunch
06:35 to figure out what they want
06:36 and the conversation can start there.
06:39 So you have to dig into these things.
06:40 And people fight about money,
06:42 but the fight's often about 50 other things.
06:45 One of the rules Tammy and I had about fighting
06:48 was you didn't get to bring up the past.
06:51 'Cause you know what happens.
06:52 You start a fight and it's like,
06:54 well, you did this like three months ago and six months ago,
06:57 and then you did this two years ago and five years,
06:59 and soon it's an argument about the entire relationship,
07:01 and you can't even settle the simple thing
07:03 that's on the table.
07:04 The other, we had another rule, which was do not agree.
07:09 With anything you don't agree with.
07:11 Because I don't wanna have this discussion,
07:14 and you say you agree, but you really don't,
07:17 and then four months from now, we have the same argument,
07:20 turns out you didn't agree at all,
07:22 and it was, so if you agree and you actually agreed,
07:25 then you don't get to have the argument about it anymore.
07:28 Now, you know, obviously there was errors around that,
07:31 but that was helpful.
07:33 - A lot of--
07:34 - Then you don't bring things forward, you know,
07:36 and that's what collapses marriages.
07:38 It's the cumulative consequences of unresolved conflict.
07:42 It just, the chaos turns into a dragon
07:46 and eats both of you, and that's that.
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