- 2 years ago
In this edition, we break down Brussels' diplomatic efforts to achieve peace in the Middle East, and why people are talking about an EU army again.
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00:00 [Music]
00:12 Hello there and welcome to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekly talk show that takes a look at the news brewing in Brussels and beyond.
00:21 I'm Maeve McMahon, thanks for joining us.
00:24 Coming up this week, over 100 days since the Israel-Hamas war broke out, Brussels is trying to broker a deal.
00:32 EU Foreign Affairs Chief Joseph Borre has a peace plan up his sleeve and presented it during talks here this week.
00:39 But with so much at stake in such a complicated conflict, we break down why his idea went down like a lead balloon.
00:46 And this week saw fresh airstrikes target Kiev, bringing locals to metro stations to take shelter.
00:53 With warnings of growing instability around Europe, talks of an EU army have hit the refresh button.
00:59 For now, defence is exclusively a matter for EU member states and defence spending an issue for EU finance ministers.
01:05 But with all the turmoil around, we're asking if an EU army will ever be a reality and how it will work alongside NATO.
01:13 A really warm welcome to our guests.
01:15 This week, Rio Terrace, an Estonian MEP from the European People's Party and a former general. You're very welcome.
01:22 Lisa Mouchot, Head of EU Affairs at the International Crisis Group. That's a conflict prevention organisation. You're very welcome.
01:29 And Professor Court de Boeuf, he's a historian from the Brussels School of Governance, teaching Middle East studies on war and diplomacy.
01:36 So really curious to hear your insights.
01:38 But first, as always, and before we do, let's just bring our viewers up to speed on the diplomatic efforts in Brussels this week to stop the Israel-Hamas war.
01:47 Another day, another display of support for the plight of the thousands of Palestinians caught up in Israel's attempt to take down Hamas, deemed a terrorist group by the European Union.
02:00 To try to set the situation, spiralling for weeks with no end in sight, the EU presented a plan this week, a ten-point peace plan.
02:10 It includes releasing all Israeli hostages and refreshing efforts for a two-state solution.
02:17 To discuss it, ministers from both Palestine and Israel descended upon Brussels this week, albeit separately.
02:25 Despite the attempts, it is unclear though whether EU member states and regional stakeholders will even endorse the planned blueprint.
02:32 Leaving it at anybody's guess to know how this conflict will end, if ever, and if it will spread into the region.
02:40 So on that roadmap presented by the EU Foreign Affairs Chief Joseph Borrell, that also calls for a conference that would be co-organised by the EU, Egypt, Jordan, the Saudis, the US and the UN.
02:51 What is your take on the idea?
02:53 Yeah, so I think it's of course understandable that Joseph Borrell is really looking at the long-term solutions.
03:01 We hear a lot of the talk about the day after, and so he has been proposing this plan.
03:08 But what really matters right now, what's the most urgent task right now is to reach a ceasefire.
03:14 And that's where all the political efforts should go in the end.
03:19 And that is the difficult part, especially for the EU and for the member states.
03:25 As member states have different views on it, the EU hasn't collectively managed to agree on a call for a ceasefire,
03:31 because there's of course different positions, different sensitivities around the member states.
03:36 But that's where we believe the political focus needs to be.
03:40 EU member states are divided on that, but the parliament, for its part, last week, they called for a permanent ceasefire.
03:46 Yes, but I still think that the solution is in the hands of the Israelis and Palestinians.
03:53 And I don't see Borrell's peace plan having that much influence on the processes,
04:00 because his track record anyway is not very, very high on what he has succeeded during his time.
04:07 And the EU has no means to enforce anything.
04:12 I think the key words there are U.S. and Israel and Palestine.
04:18 Of course, the two-state solution is needed, important.
04:22 But if we look at the voter structure in the last, say, 10, 15 years, it has changed in Israel very much to a conservative side.
04:30 And the peace plans which were made in 1993, they are not really visible today.
04:39 So it is a tough thing, but one thing is clear, Israel has a right to defend itself.
04:45 Let's bring in your view on this, on those diplomatic efforts here this week and Joseph Borrell's plan.
04:51 Well, actually, I applaud the plan, because at least there is an effort to do something,
04:58 because the EU is fighting against something very important, which is irrelevance.
05:03 So the EU has been irrelevant in this conflict so far for two reasons.
05:08 I mean, if I look at it from the Arab perspective, I mean, they see that the EU has always been preaching human rights,
05:14 international law, actually has been giving different views when it was concerning this conflict.
05:20 And from the Arab world and even the entire rest of the world, I mean, they're really angry about this.
05:26 But the second thing is, of course, the division of the EU.
05:29 So let's just see, I mean, let's say Germany on one side, Spain on the other side, and Belgium somewhere in the middle.
05:35 And then with this effort of Borrell, at least it's trying to do something.
05:41 And I think, I mean, the ceasefire will only be in place if there's a large view on all this.
05:49 And this is what he's trying to do. And I just hope it will lead to something.
05:53 Well, let's bring in Joseph Borrell, who is chairing that meeting and telling the press that he believes that talking about peace is redundant.
06:00 I think that we have to stop talking about the peace, the peace process,
06:07 and start talking more concretely about the two-state solution process.
06:13 I know it's difficult, but it's our moral endeavour, our moral obligation to try to do our utmost to try to look for a solution.
06:21 But as you said, Rio, it's up to the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves to solve this issue that we, as we know,
06:27 and you know very well as a professor, has been going on for so many decades.
06:30 And for now, the Prime Minister, Netanyahu, is rejecting a two-state solution
06:36 and saying that Palestine could pose an existential danger to Israel.
06:41 And you said there earlier that Israel, in your eyes, has the right to defend itself.
06:45 But we're talking about 25,000 deaths now since this began on the 7th of October. Are those deaths then justified?
06:52 Yeah, well, Israel didn't start that particular war that was started by Hamas killing innocent people,
06:59 and Israel is now retaliating. And the fight, Hamas, is very difficult.
07:07 It's really house to house, flat to flat military operation, takes time, effort.
07:13 And I think Israel is doing well, but not well enough.
07:19 And how to stop it, I think the first thing is all the hostages have to be returned back home.
07:25 And then probably even Netanyahu will start to think about possible solutions.
07:30 And that's something you called for in the resolution as well in the Parliament.
07:33 Lisa, you've been working on this conflict as well for so long. I mean, what, in your eyes, should be done here?
07:38 So I think what is important to understand is that a ceasefire now is important both to address the humanitarian situation on the ground,
07:46 but also for the security of Israel, because the military campaign, as it is now happening,
07:51 is not achieving the objectives that Israel has stated, which are the release of the hostages and eradication of Hamas.
07:59 And we do not see that these are being achieved.
08:03 So it's also important for security concerns for Israel to look at a different path ahead.
08:08 And the ceasefire is the first step towards something else, potentially eventually a political track.
08:14 And it's also really important for the regional escalation.
08:17 I guess we will come to that, but a ceasefire will also be very important to make sure that this doesn't become even more dangerous for the region
08:25 and also ultimately for the EU as European interests are already being affected, especially on the economic front.
08:31 Could I make a small historical side note here?
08:35 I mean, in '73, the Yom Kippur War, I mean, when Egypt and Syria invaded Israel, also by surprise,
08:42 I mean, it was by this war that Israel understood, like, we cannot live in peace ever if we do not make an agreement with these two enemy states.
08:52 I mean, Syria didn't happen. Egypt had the Camp David Agreement.
08:55 And that was a massive step forward for Israel.
08:58 So we are in the same situation now.
09:00 There is no way forward to have a security situation in Israel if there is not a solution for the Palestinian state.
09:07 So in that respect, I mean, that's on the table.
09:10 And the person who is actually stopping this right now, I mean, it's Netanyahu himself, not just Netanyahu himself, but what is also going on.
09:20 I mean, as you said, the purpose is not reached. The goals are not reached.
09:24 I mean, you have the impression that even the longer this is taking, the more regional it will become, the more explosive it will become,
09:30 and the more precarious for a state as Israel.
09:33 So this is not rational anymore.
09:35 And so we have to go back to kind of rational path in order to see, like, OK, what should we do if not the entire region will explode to the big danger of Israel itself.
09:47 So this is what's going on.
09:49 But I think one thing is important, that the people of Israel and Palestine, if you look at the polls before the conflict,
09:57 they were not in support of a really of the two-state solution.
10:01 And I think today the polls are even worse, and the politicians act based on the polls.
10:08 And so I don't see Netanyahu has other chance to do what he does right now.
10:14 Well, actually, we've seen, I've seen a lot of protesters, actually families related to the hostages,
10:19 who've become very critical of their government strategy because they feel the ongoing fighting is also putting their loved ones at risk.
10:26 But let's bring in some of those voices that were here in Brussels this week, like the Israeli foreign minister, who's called Israel Cats,
10:32 and his Palestinian counterpart, Riyad Malki.
10:35 They were there in Brussels.
10:36 They weren't in the same room at the same time, but at least they were able to both express their stance and express the message that they have for Brussels.
10:44 To bring back our hostages and restore security for the citizens of Israel.
10:53 With all respect to Joseph Borrell, who is a good friend, you know, if you do not, you know, call the call and say the words, the right words, sanctions, you know, then nothing will happen.
11:07 Sanctions, I mean, that word sanctions coming up as well, Kurt, in those meetings.
11:12 What we see now is both sides, and for obvious reasons, are in intellectual trenches where they, I mean, cannot, I mean, they're becoming angry.
11:20 If this is not set, if it's not set properly, once it's ceasefire and so forth, if it's not good humanitarian pause.
11:26 These are all, I mean, side wars, I mean, intellectual and verbal side wars that at this point, I mean, we are beyond this.
11:33 I mean, 570,000 people are in severe famine.
11:39 They are hungry.
11:40 They're going to die from hunger.
11:42 I mean, this is what the UN published this week.
11:46 So, I mean, the situation is so dire that the end must come very quickly.
11:51 If not, it's going to be a massive, massive disaster.
11:54 And then we will look back to it and say, what have we done?
11:57 Oh, we were discussing sanctions.
11:58 We were discussing ceasefire words, humanitarian pause.
12:01 This is ridiculous.
12:02 I mean, it's going to be far beyond that.
12:04 If I can come in briefly on that, I think ceasefire, we as Crisis Group, we're working on this and we actually come out with the paper also next week on that,
12:12 is that the ceasefire has to be the starting point, which can then allow for, for example, a sequencing of hostage releases,
12:19 as well as limiting the restrictions to humanitarian aid, then can come next steps along the way that can lead to a political track.
12:27 And that's the way one has to focus on this right now to stop the extreme cycle of violence that we see now.
12:35 And sort of, yeah, just to...
12:37 I totally agree.
12:38 I totally agree.
12:39 I just mean that it's about the word ceasefire.
12:41 The words, yeah.
12:42 The EU has been battling about, can we use the word or should we use humanitarian pauses?
12:46 And there are some people who say sustainable ceasefire, others immediate.
12:49 Indeed, I agree.
12:50 Well, this shows you, doesn't it, how complex, how complicated it is and how different and how nuanced it is clearly across the block.
12:56 But are you not worried as an MEP and inside the parliament about the wider implications for the region?
13:02 Well, of course, we already see that the commerce is really stopped through the Suez channel.
13:10 We have implications on the economy.
13:13 And of course, there is a solution needed.
13:16 But I don't see European Union having tools to succeed anything on there.
13:21 Well, negotiations, good.
13:22 But how we would influence that?
13:24 I think the broad position of Biden's administration is in this context very important.
13:29 And right now I see Americans only laying back and looking at how things go.
13:34 And they're really trying to find a solution there, in my opinion.
13:39 Indeed, because it could start soon hitting our pockets here in Europe, those blockages, the trade blockages in the Red Sea.
13:46 Absolutely.
13:47 And that's actually already, I mean, will happen because, of course, if you have to go around Africa, Cape, good hope.
13:52 I mean, this will cost at least 1,000 euros per container more.
13:56 So, I mean, the cars, everything will become more expensive.
13:59 But to come back a bit to the United States, is this difference what United States is saying?
14:04 I was in Qatar recently where I have been talking to the negotiators.
14:07 And there's a difference between what they say in public and what they say behind closed doors.
14:11 And behind closed doors, they're actually also insisting on an end of this war, on a ceasefire very soon.
14:18 The problem is why they can't, they say publicly, is because if they say this war has to end and it doesn't end,
14:24 I mean, it will make Biden weak.
14:26 And we are entering, indeed, a presidential race.
14:29 So, all this is also connected to internal politics, not only in Israel, not only in Europe, but certainly also in the United States.
14:36 I mean, things become extremely complicated.
14:38 And maybe to sort of say, because you also mentioned sort of that Europe might not have the keys for this.
14:43 And it's true that the EU itself will probably not be the one brokering, at the driving seat of brokering any deal.
14:51 But, of course, it is important for the EU to talk to all the different actors, to the US, obviously, as they are so important,
14:58 and also to the regional actors.
15:00 And there, of course, the meeting on Monday was interesting because besides the Israelis and the Palestinians,
15:07 there was also the Egyptians, the Saudis, et cetera.
15:09 So, that is an important point for the EU, of course, to be talking to the different sides
15:15 and also sort of conveying messages to the different sides.
15:19 Indeed, and there was meetings as well exclusively with Egypt, with their counterparts from Egypt.
15:23 There's a lot at stake here for Egypt, who's hosting, I think, 9 million refugees from the war in Sudan at the moment.
15:29 And their economy has been drastically hit by the Houthis attacking in the Red Sea.
15:33 And I believe shipping costs, I was reading, from China to Europe have already tripled.
15:37 So, consumer prices will go up here in Europe.
15:39 And your voters, people back in Estonia, will be looking to you and your colleagues as well for answers on what to do here.
15:45 Yes, and then Porel is trying to.
15:47 But as I said, that is really the solution is in the hands of Israel and Palestine.
15:53 And the question is who is representing Palestine?
15:56 Has the authority, the Palestinian Authority, really the authority to represent the people?
16:02 Or is it Hamas?
16:03 And to what extent Hamas is influencing the processes?
16:07 And I think, therefore, fighting the Hamas is still a key in this context.
16:12 And it remains the same in the future as well.
16:16 And how do people over in Estonia feel about this?
16:18 Are they out on the streets looking for solutions?
16:21 Well, not that it's pretty far away from Estonians, the process.
16:25 But, of course, if it starts to hit their pockets, then they will start to talk and discuss it.
16:30 But we have a very cold climate and people don't go to the streets.
16:35 But if we talk to...
16:36 Just briefly, I just want to show you, because it's like international pressure is on in the sense that there's been a lot of protests here in Belgium.
16:43 Last Sunday, we saw a lot of people out on the streets.
16:45 They're calling, like the International Crisis Group, for a ceasefire.
16:48 Take a look.
16:49 By God, Israel!
16:50 Netanyahu terrorist!
16:52 Netanyahu terrorist!
16:54 It's enough.
16:55 More than three months, it's enough.
16:57 They kill every single moment of the life there.
16:59 And really, it's not injustice.
17:01 Unbelievable what is happening there now.
17:03 And really, we call all the world.
17:05 We call Europe.
17:06 We call Biden.
17:07 We call Britain.
17:08 Please, ceasefire.
17:09 Please, stop the war.
17:10 Please, give the people a justice right to live a normal life for them there.
17:14 It's enough.
17:15 It's enough.
17:16 It's enough.
17:17 So that's the message here from Brussels.
17:18 You wanted to comment?
17:19 Yeah, I think when we talk about the tools that the EU has as well to look at the sort of regional escalation or prevent this impacting the EU,
17:28 one interesting development is, of course, the proposal for an EU mission that would accompany civilian ships in the Red Sea.
17:36 I think ministers are looking at and launching this in February.
17:41 So that will be interesting to see whether the EU is able to put together a mission very quickly.
17:46 And, of course, we know the EU has maritime missions, for example, off the Somali coast doing anti-piracy work.
17:53 But this is a whole different order in terms of the regional situation.
17:58 So it will be interesting to watch what the EU is going to make of that.
18:02 Yeah.
18:04 I would like to add, I mean, one thing that the EU can do that the United States can do much less is talk to one of the big players that we haven't mentioned yet, which is Iran.
18:14 Iran, who has its links to Hamas, to Hezbollah in Lebanon, to the Houthis, which are now, I mean, indeed firing on ships in the Red Sea.
18:22 So what the EU can play is being a kind of glue.
18:26 So as such, I don't think they have a major diplomatic role as being the forceful actor that the United States is, or, for example, Saudi Arabia or other players in the region.
18:36 But we don't need an EU-Israel, EU-Palestine diplomatic round of talks.
18:43 No, we need a almost big regional, almost a global talk that will put pressure on moving forward to something in that region.
18:52 And without that, things will never going to be solved.
18:55 And it is urgent, actually.
18:57 Briefly, would you agree with that?
18:59 Well, talking to Iran is very difficult because Iran has outed itself as an axis of evil if you look at what it does towards Russia, how they work and operate together with China, Russia, North Korea.
19:12 So talking to Iran is pretty difficult.
19:14 And I think that one of the root causes of what happens right now in Israel-Palestine is the war in Ukraine, because that gave the Russians a good excuse, or the focus of their world goes to the Palestine, and we are not talking anymore that much about Ukraine.
19:33 Well, we will in just a minute, but we'll first just have to take a pause.
19:36 I'm going to have to stop you there, but thank you so much for your insights.
19:39 And you don't go anywhere, because after the break, we will, in fact, talk about Ukraine and also about whether one day we'll see European boots on the ground under an EU flag.
19:48 Stay with us here on Euronews.
19:50 Welcome back to Brussels, my love.
20:00 I'm Maeve McMahon.
20:02 Now, this week, the pictures that are on our mind are images from Kiev and Kharkiv in Ukraine.
20:07 After deadly Russian airstrikes, 40 ballistic missiles and what seems to be the heaviest bombardment since early January.
20:14 As Ukrainians remain on edge, EU voices here are also getting jittery that the bloc needs to be ready for potential attacks and Europe needs to be able to one day perhaps defend itself alone.
20:24 And recently, the Italian foreign minister, Antonio Tajani, said if Europe wants to be peacekeepers, Europe needs a European army, saying that it was a precondition to have effective European foreign policy.
20:36 So, we all turn to you as not just an MEP around the table with us here, but also a former general.
20:42 How do you feel when you hear this idea of an EU army?
20:45 I'm very sad that this discussion still is ongoing.
20:49 First thing I think is important right now to win the war in Ukraine, which means that the European nations should focus on supporting Ukraine with much more resources and the Estonian proposal to allocate 0.25% of the GDP every year to support Ukraine.
21:08 I think that is important.
21:10 The discussion about the European army is actually a displacement activity because it will not come to that.
21:17 And we all know that.
21:18 And the question is, if I ask as a soldier, as a military, what is European army?
21:22 Nobody could answer that.
21:24 An army is the land unit with more than three corps.
21:29 And if I start to talk about that, they say, what, they didn't know that.
21:32 So, European army, Air Force, Navy, will it be a several service organization?
21:38 Who would lead it?
21:39 Who will command it?
21:40 How that…
21:41 What language would they speak?
21:43 Can you imagine that German soldiers will get a task from European Parliament?
21:49 No.
21:50 And not from Bundestag.
21:51 That is not possible.
21:53 Well, this is what we were explaining to our viewers here that now defence is clearly a competence exclusively of the EU member states.
21:57 NATO is there.
21:58 It is capable.
21:59 And they are NATO armies who will defend Europe.
22:04 And if we talk about something, then we should talk about armies of Europe, but not about European army.
22:10 And then we should finance the armies of Europe in the way that they are able in the NATO framework to defend Europe.
22:17 Let's bring in some more perspectives on this idea of an EU army.
22:19 Before Christmas as well over in Spain, we saw an exercise take place with thousands of troops, mostly French-led, but Spanish also there involved, testing what this idea could potentially look like.
22:29 What is your take on it all?
22:31 You know, I have no idea that we will have a European army, I mean, some years from now, maybe a decade from now.
22:37 And it is just the same like when years ago people were pleading for a common border control force.
22:44 Everybody said it is impossible.
22:46 Now we have Frontex that is doing its job, not always perfectly, but they are doing their job.
22:51 So, everybody is always seeing the problems, but what we also see is perhaps a necessity.
22:56 I don't say that we have to need an offensive force, I mean, but a defensive side.
23:01 For example, now in the Red Sea, I mean, again, all parliaments around Europe have to decide are we going to send some naval force or not.
23:10 So, instead we could have acted much faster.
23:13 And the third point is that I think all small armies, I mean, buying their own equipment, I mean, if we can pull this, this is the EU idea from the very beginning as well.
23:25 We pull resources, we can be much stronger.
23:28 I think not just on the financial side, I think, but also in the end, indeed, on the foreign policy side.
23:34 Lisa, your take bearing in mind as well that this week the president of your group, Manfred Weber, the German man, was visiting Kiev
23:40 and pushing out that idea as well of stronger European defense together.
23:44 Yeah, I think one thing that is important to note is that we have indeed seen since Russia's large-scale invasion of Ukraine,
23:51 we have seen a lot of momentum for better defense integration of the EU.
23:55 So, there has been things that have been unthinkable before for the EU to do, which is, for example, sending weapons and ammunition to a third country,
24:04 which has never happened before as collectively as an EU bloc.
24:08 We have seen certain steps that have been sort of taken, but we are really, really, really far away from a European army.
24:16 I think that's clear that the rhetoric there is much further from what we see in the reality.
24:22 One thing that will be interesting to see is the EU has, in 2022, released a strategic compass,
24:29 which was looking at the European threat environment and had an idea for sort of a 5,000 troop rapid reaction, rapid deployment capacity.
24:40 And they were supposed to sort of have that ready by 2025.
24:44 This is obviously not an EU army, but it is an interesting development.
24:49 And to see whether the EU is actually managing to deliver this will be quite interesting,
24:53 sort of in terms of looking at next steps of defense integration.
24:56 Just before I bring you in, I just want to bring in one of your colleagues.
24:59 Do you know Guy Verhofstadt?
25:00 Yes.
25:01 The Belgian MEP?
25:02 Yes.
25:03 Who's been screaming for an EU army for many years.
25:05 Take a listen to him recently in Strasbourg.
25:07 I have enough of this debates here where the commission and the council comes here and says as long as it takes, we're going to support Ukraine.
25:17 But we doesn't really support Ukraine on military.
25:21 And the reason why that is?
25:23 For one simple reason.
25:25 That is there is no European defense community, no common procurement.
25:29 That's the real disaster of Europe.
25:32 Guy Verhofstadt there, the Belgian MEP.
25:34 Well, I agree with that.
25:35 I mean, absolutely sure that Europe can do much better and much more on the common procurement, on beefing up their defense capability,
25:44 putting together countries who want to procure some things together.
25:49 That is all possible important and we need to pay.
25:52 But the point is we need to increase the defense spendings, and we don't do it.
25:59 And as long as that happens, all this talk about European armies, well, the European battle groups are there.
26:07 I guess we can't.
26:08 And that means 5,000 soldiers.
26:09 Governments can't afford it now because they're...
26:10 I think the main problem is that we don't understand that the war is ongoing and if we don't want this war, the war comes to Europe.
26:17 And so every country in Europe has to spend at least 2% of the GDP on defense.
26:23 Okay, you've made your point loud and clear.
26:24 Is that threat real, though, that Kremlin could potentially attack Moldova, the Baltics, eventually come to continental Europe?
26:32 Well, there's, of course, a difference between Moldova and the Baltics.
26:34 Yes, I agree with that.
26:36 The question is already very wrong because the Baltics are in NATO.
26:40 But that's exactly what a Belgian official said last week.
26:42 Well, he doesn't know that we are in NATO, then.
26:45 I'm personally doubting that Russia will attack the Baltics because then they get a big war with NATO.
26:54 I mean, what we see in Ukraine, from my perspective, and I've been meeting yesterday with actually a national from Estonia who has been fighting in Ukraine until a few weeks ago,
27:03 and said, I mean, we are on a stalemate.
27:06 I mean, everybody is exhausted.
27:07 I mean, there's not much movement anymore.
27:09 So if Russia is exhausted, will they start a new war with NATO?
27:13 Probably not.
27:14 Having said that, I said also the same on the invasion of Ukraine.
27:18 I said, like, I don't think there is any reason to do that for Russia.
27:21 And they did it.
27:22 I'm afraid we are out of time.
27:24 But for more analysis on any of those stories, you can check out Euronews.com or take a look as well at our app.
27:29 You can download it on your phone.
27:30 But for now, thank you so much to our guests for your insights and for being with us here.
27:34 And thank you so much for watching.
27:36 See you soon on Euronews.
27:37 [Music]
27:45 Welcome back to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekend chat show.
27:50 I'm Maeve McMahon, and along with our panel, we're just taking a look back at some of the talking points here in Brussels this week.
27:57 And one was a new ranking saying that this city, after Rome and Athens, is the most stressful in Europe.
28:04 The study was put together by William Russell Insurance to support expats,
28:08 and stress indicators include noise and light pollution, cleanliness, quality of green spaces, and the safety of the LGBTQ community.
28:17 So have any of you seen this news? Lisa?
28:19 I've just seen it because, you know, as preparing for the show, and I was so surprised about it,
28:23 because I always consider Brussels a bit of a hidden gem.
28:26 People only see the sort of area here of the EU headquarters, which is indeed very grey and sort of depressing.
28:34 But then as soon as you leave that area, it's actually fairly green and really nice and very lively.
28:40 And I find in the last 10 years, for example, things like cycling infrastructure has increased incredibly.
28:46 Of course, I would agree on noise and so on.
28:49 There's certainly a lot to do, but I was surprised about the ranking.
28:52 Because it's not just Brussels, Belgium is also high up on that list as a stressful, as a Belgian, what would you say to that?
28:58 You can always live in a quite boring place, you know, so if you live in Brussels, it's different.
29:04 And one of the things that makes Brussels, I think, very interesting is that it's one of the most multicultural cities in the world.
29:11 So 60% of the people living in Brussels are not born in Belgium.
29:15 So it makes it very international and also a bit chaotic because of that.
29:20 So, yeah, you have to take this with the other.
29:23 But I think for an EU capital being in the most multicultural city of the world, I think is a great idea.
29:30 It's certainly not boring. I will agree with you on that one. What about yourself?
29:33 Well, coming from the country where 1.2 million people living in all the country and here you have them all in one spot,
29:40 it is all, of course, much more stressful.
29:43 But I find I can compensate it with pretty good beer and lots of good chocolate you can get here and the food.
29:50 So and I agree with you that there are lots of green parks and I don't see that stress, but probably I'm not long enough here.
29:57 I just go come on Mondays and go on Fridays and enjoy the weekend.
30:03 It's certainly terrible PR, isn't it, for Brussels?
30:05 So we wanted to actually talk to people on the streets to see how they feel about this labelling.
30:09 So we turned our camera and our microphones on them.
30:12 I don't agree. I think that stress is a personal matter because Brussels is a beautiful city.
30:18 You can really have a good life here.
30:20 No, I don't think so. They never lived in Madrid or in Paris or in London.
30:26 I mean, I don't think so. To me, Brussels is like a village.
30:30 I don't feel stressed. I just started working here.
30:32 A lot of stress as long as you're not driving.
30:34 No, Brussels is not stressful. You just need to get used to it.
30:38 There is some traffic, but it's never a big city.
30:40 Yeah, people are stressed and in their own world, but it's also a nice city, even though it is a bit stressed.
30:45 People's attitude and maybe that everyone is in a hurry.
30:49 I don't think it's stressful. I mean, we have a stressful job, but the city is lovely.
30:52 No, there is no stress here.
30:57 Thank you so much to all those we met on the streets of Brussels,
31:01 mostly only agreeing that the city is not that stressful.
31:04 But it's worth pointing out that Estonia did very well and was coined as one of the most stress-free places in the world
31:11 to live due to exceptional air quality and for being super clean.
31:15 And we have 2,222 islands to go if we don't like to be in Wales.
31:22 I lived in Cairo for five years.
31:24 I can say if you lived in Cairo, which is about 25 million people and noise and so forth,
31:30 Brussels is a very quiet and stress-less place.
31:34 I mean, I think all this article has achieved to do is really turn heads and get us all having a good chat.
31:39 And there, Lisbon, I believe, came up as well as one of the least stressful places to live
31:43 due to its serene lifestyle and reasonable cost of living.
31:47 To be honest, Lisbon I've seen only sort of for holidays and obviously it's a beautiful, beautiful place for that.
31:53 But I would not be able to know how it is for living.
31:57 But yeah, I think I was also thinking there must be so many more of these mega cities daily, etc.
32:03 That must be so much more stressful. And Brussels is actually fairly small.
32:06 Thank you so much for coming into us before that.
32:09 Thank you so much to Rio Terrace, Lisa Mucho and Professor Kurt Deboeuf.
32:13 It's been a pleasure having you with us this weekend.
32:15 And thank you so much to you for watching.
32:17 If you'd like to reach out on any of the topics that you've heard today,
32:20 our email address is brusselsmylove@euronews.com.
32:23 Take care and see you soon here on Euronews.
32:26 [Music]
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