00:00 And to be discussed like by men, it just feels like, why do they have the rights to do it?
00:23 God people say online harm isn't real harm, but how accurate is this statement?
00:29 Welcome to God People Say, a talk show where we provide a space for healthy discourse on
00:34 contentious topics often left unspoken.
00:36 I'm Munah, your host for today.
00:39 Now in this episode, we will be delving into an important topic, Singapore's approach
00:44 to online harm.
00:46 Now with social media and the online sphere becoming more prominent in Singapore day by
00:51 day, is there a risk for further increase in online harms like cyber harassment, cyber
00:57 bullying and cancel culture?
01:00 Is anonymity one of the most significant factors contributing to online harm?
01:05 And what more can be done to support victims of harm and hold perpetrators accountable
01:11 for their actions?
01:13 Now joining me today are three individuals who have had past experiences with different
01:18 types of online harm and Ms Simran Tur from SG Her Empowerment who will be sharing her
01:25 insights and expertise on Singapore's internet space.
01:29 Now let's get to the discussion, shall we?
01:32 But before that, introductions.
01:34 So my name is Mathilda, I'm a content creator and cyber security analyst in my 9 to 5 and
01:39 I create content on mental health, body positivity and fitness.
01:43 Hi everyone, I'm Julie Tan.
01:45 I started acting since 17 and I've been in the media industry for 13 years and been a
01:51 content creator for 13 years.
01:55 Hi everyone, my name is Simran.
01:58 After 20 years as a lawyer, last year I left legal practice to head up a charity on gender
02:03 equity called SG Her Empowerment or SHE.
02:06 One of the things that SHE does is we look at online harms and how they affect girls
02:11 and boys online and we also run Singapore's first online harms help centre called SHE
02:17 Cares at SCWO so I'm sure we'll talk a bit more about that later.
02:20 I'm Kevin and I am also a content creator.
02:24 I've been doing content for about 5 to 6 years.
02:26 I'm not sure, I don't count.
02:29 I'm also a performer, I dance full time and I also am a fitness instructor, I teach a
02:36 bit.
02:37 Alright, thanks guys for joining us for this discussion.
02:38 Now we'll get straight into it.
02:41 Online harm is generally understood by most people to be harmful content or behaviour
02:46 in an online setting.
02:48 Maybe we can share what online harm means to you.
02:51 It is when someone purposefully tries to hurt someone else through an online platform.
02:59 Malicious or not, or intentional or not, if it does any bad to the person who's receiving
03:04 it, that's perceived as online harm.
03:06 How do you think online harm differs from harming someone offline?
03:12 Online harm is actually quite a broad definition.
03:15 Generally there's what's called legal harm, things that are clearly an offence, like I'm
03:19 harassing you might be an offence.
03:21 But there's a huge swathe of conduct that can be done online that's not illegal but
03:26 it's very harmful.
03:27 It's something that we call lawful but awful harm.
03:30 Given the amount of time people spend online these days, it's those lawful acts that can
03:35 actually impact people the most greatly.
03:37 But what we know right now is that it's serious, it's actually traumatic.
03:41 So if someone was going to stalk you, they're not going to purely stalk you online, it will
03:44 happen in the real world and online quite often as well.
03:47 So we shouldn't just look at this in a silo, we should consider it holistically.
03:52 Can you share with us an incident of online harm that has stuck with you?
03:58 So for myself, I started acting at the age of 17.
04:03 Back then I was just starting out, next thing you know, you have fame.
04:08 And then the next thing is a friend sent me a link to a forum.
04:13 And inside the forum is discussion about your body, about you as a person.
04:19 And back then I was one of the artists who kind of openly shared that, "Oh I'm in a relationship,
04:23 I'm dating someone, this is my boyfriend."
04:26 In the forum, there is full-blown conversations about how you are doing some things and nasty
04:33 things and stuff like that.
04:35 And I kind of regret clicking that link.
04:38 I don't really need to know what they're talking about.
04:40 How did you feel though, finding out when it first happened?
04:44 It's really my private life and to be discussed by men, it just feels like, why do they have
04:54 the rights to do it?
04:55 And they would say, "With great fame, definitely that is one of the effects that you need to
05:00 take it."
05:01 But I did not ask for it.
05:02 And it actually seriously affected my mental health.
05:06 And there was actually a short period of time I was actually self-harming myself.
05:11 Yeah.
05:12 I mean, at being at the age of 17, no one really taught you how to be a celebrity or
05:19 how to even prevent online harm.
05:22 No one mental prepped you to how to deal with the reality of being a public figure, for
05:28 example.
05:29 And we just kind of think that, you know, being a young teenager, we are being ourselves.
05:34 We want to show the world who we really are, but not knowing that we handed the dagger
05:39 for them to stab us.
05:40 But the thing is, to them, to the public, they will just think that, "Oh, you want
05:44 to be an actress, but you need to accept it."
05:47 But do we really need to take it?
05:50 Do we really need to accept it?
05:52 I got chills listening to your story because, crazy how we're in the same couch.
05:57 I didn't know you before this, but I 100% feel for you.
06:00 I went through the same thing.
06:01 This 20-page forum discussed so many different depths about my body and how they deluded
06:09 at one point that I had thyroid and I was thinking like, "Okay, do I really have thyroid
06:14 disease?"
06:15 And that's crazy, right?
06:16 I mean, how can someone's opinion, someone who I don't even know, affect how I looked
06:20 and felt about my own body and questioning my own general physical health?
06:24 I took another approach from you and we wrote in to the moderator.
06:28 There's clearly some cases of doxing.
06:30 They managed to find out my condo apartment at that point in time.
06:33 With that, we used that piece of ammo to the forum and told them, "Take it down.
06:41 It's obviously against privacy or data privacy, etc."
06:44 It's a horrible feeling having to feel like you have to stand up for yourself and having
06:47 to deal with all these different comments said behind my back.
06:51 Even though I was preaching for things that were so important like mental health, being
06:55 happy in your own body, and why do I deserve this?
06:58 I don't know.
06:59 I just haven't figured it out.
07:00 I hear that a lot too.
07:01 Like, yeah, you put yourself out there.
07:03 You have to.
07:05 This is just part and parcel of it.
07:07 But I think there's a line, right?
07:08 There is a line and it's something that I think we need to talk about a lot more, which
07:13 is like the myths that operate in our minds and the misconceptions about online harms.
07:18 She, as Jihae Empowerment, put together a little guide, 10 myths about online harms.
07:22 And one of them is, "If I put my image online, I deserve all the hate I get because I put
07:27 my image online."
07:28 And that's not true, right?
07:29 I can put my image online.
07:31 That's my freedom of expression.
07:33 But it doesn't mean you can be horrid and abusive to me, right?
07:36 There must be a line in your conduct.
07:38 But about 30-something percent of Singaporeans actually believe that, yeah, you put your
07:42 photo online, I can say whatever I want.
07:43 So these are things we need to start correcting.
07:46 Do you feel like hiding behind an anonymous facade or a user perpetuates this behaviour?
07:56 I definitely think it plays a factor because when it's not you who's saying it, but in
08:02 a way, you have a facade, you have some form of protection.
08:05 No one, if it's anonymous especially, people feel like they have all the power in the world
08:12 without any consequence.
08:13 No one would ever say in your face in real life.
08:15 The problem is, in the online space, the perception at least is there are no rules.
08:19 No one is going to enforce it.
08:21 No one's going to come after me as an individual.
08:23 So this is how you can expect human beings, unfortunately, to behave if they feel that
08:27 no one's watching and no one will come after them.
08:30 Do you think it will help if we start from young?
08:35 No, absolutely.
08:36 I think there's a lot of organisations now looking to go into schools and work with MOE
08:41 to teach them something a bit more than cyber wellness and health and turn off your phone
08:45 at 8pm.
08:46 The meaningful things that can happen online, like what is an algorithm?
08:50 At least understand that what you are seeing may be fed to you by your own actions.
08:54 So I think we need to evolve a little bit, but start early.
08:57 The idea of cancel culture.
09:04 I think one big one for me was when I got cancelled.
09:09 Do you think it's ever beneficial or appropriate for someone to be cancelled?
09:13 To some extent, it's quite necessary.
09:16 I think it's a good thing.
09:29 [BLANK_AUDIO]
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