Bobby Manning welcomes The Ringer's Brian Barrett to the Garden Report to talk about the Celtics vs Bulls group play finale in the In Season Tournament, the beginning of the bracket next week vs the Pacers and how to fix the tournament next year.
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00:00 day garden report first the two off days for the Celtics here so get back into some podcasting some
00:06 longer conversation about the team here uh off their 12 uh 14 and 4 now start and the epic win
00:14 last night over the bulls in the in-season tournament to make it to indiana hopefully
00:20 vegas after that brian barrett's here from the ring i saw you this morning brian and last night
00:25 of course as well just as excited as me about this thing and i felt some shame over it for a little
00:32 while in the early stages just because everybody's shrugging their shoulders no one can figure it
00:37 out everyone's saying it's the dumbest thing ever and then it felt like last night was the game that
00:43 changed everything and the approval rating just reading tweets articles listening to people
00:51 just shot through the roof off this game that was the perfect encapsulation of what this thing's
00:56 supposed to be taking this game that would have been one of the most forgettable of the year
01:01 and turning into something memorable something unique i really was sitting there at the garden
01:05 last night blown away by what i was watching because we've never seen anything like this a
01:10 20-point game where this team still has its foot to the pedal and the layer on top of that is that
01:17 it was a surprise and there's few things that really stun you in sports but when the coach
01:22 comes out before the game and says we're not going for this effectively and you're like oh and then
01:28 in the fourth quarter you see the starters lining up on the sideline and all of a sudden they're out
01:32 there flying around again clearly going for this it was like whoa this this is awesome and i loved
01:39 every minute of it what were you thinking last night yeah what was the word that joe used after
01:44 the game he kept saying like this is the process we trusted the process and then that happened
01:48 so yeah you weren't going for it but then in the fourth quarter you're following or you're
01:52 following rather andre drummond hacker drum and taking part later on in the year i thought it was
01:56 awesome and i was saying last night on my podcast i can't remember a more memorable regular season
02:02 ending like or regular season night like you can go back to kobe retiring and i believe that same
02:08 night golden state set the record for the 73 wins so we've had like those time yeah so we've had like
02:14 those kind of moments one year denver and minnesota were playing for like the final playoff spot but
02:20 this was like nothing we've ever experienced before and i thought on friday when the celtics
02:27 were playing the magic and they were losing and the magic was still going hard late in that game
02:31 even though they had it sealed up i was thinking to myself oh this is for the in-season tournament
02:35 this may get crazy on tuesday and then later on in the day i was watching phoenix versus memphis
02:41 and phoenix was doing the same thing they were trying to run up the score on the grizzlies so
02:45 i thought to myself tuesday is going to be awesome and it really was and the bulls for the celtics i
02:50 mean that was the perfect opponent to play where they just kept going at it but the reality is
02:55 hey man the players clearly care about this to the fact and the coach clearly cares about this
03:00 to the fact that they're following andre drummond late in the game now the one concern long term
03:05 common
03:17 again domain is not with what made them take everybody out fifth
03:22 But I had a ton of fun. I thought it was awesome. I think this is a huge hit for the NBA because this would have just been a normal night in the NBA, and Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, Derek White, and Drew Holliday would have been sitting on the bench for the entire fourth quarter.
03:34 But instead, this is intriguing. Like, right after the Celtics wrapped up, I'm watching the Nets and the Raptors, and Royce O'Neal hits a big three and I'm fired up. So now that this thing is actually happening, I want the Celtics to win it.
03:45 Why wouldn't you? I mean, clearly the players care. Like, LeBron's going hard at this thing. Devin Booker's going hard at this thing. We see the Bucks going hard at this thing. So I'm all in. I think it's awesome. I think there's tweaks you could make. But I'm certainly happy for year one so far.
03:58 Yeah, and the point differential is obviously going to be the thing that everyone debates and all the players were talking about last night. And I think a lot of that was just a little bit of public posturing. Like, I don't think they felt too bad about running it out because you had to do it. You had no choice. It was the way this thing worked.
04:16 And they looked pretty excited about doing it out there. And you just didn't want to shit on your opponents publicly after the game and gloat about beating them by 30. I think they wanted to manage, especially Joe. He was in the hallway looking for Andre Drummond. He was in the hallway talking with Billy Donovan out there.
04:35 So I think that was just a little bit of PR on their part to kind of, you know, manage those relationships that they have on the other side. Because they were pretty clearly into this. And there was a case to sit back, and I'm sure some teams did, even though, as you mentioned, there's some notable teams that made this thing.
04:55 And they were like, we can get a bunch of days off early next week, play a couple of crap teams and take those wins and just skip this thing, this travel. But whether it was Vegas, whether it was the money, or whether it's just intrigue about being involved in this thing, which I'm sure was part of it too.
05:12 But we eventually got on board because, you know, you go back to when this first started rolling out, it was just complaints, confusion, the floors looking weird, the jerseys looking weird, and nobody understanding what this thing was all about. And, you know, for the league's part, it was rolled out kind of clunkily. So there's some responsibility on their part for that.
05:33 But it felt like everybody just started to get more comfortable going for this as each game passed. And fortunately for the Celtics, they did have a manageable group here, they were able to slip up against the Magic. And in a weird twist, I know Bill tweeted about this, the Magic aren't playing on that last day.
05:52 So you knew what point total you needed to pass them and everything you need to do and you were able to go for it. Well, they just had to sit back and hope that the Celtics didn't do that. And, you know, after beating the Celtics pretty handily there, they don't make this thing at all. So I think the obvious adjustment, if we're going to kick some around here is to just play more games in this last year.
06:10 I mean, you had five teams pretty much with the same record between the Heat, Cavs, and a couple other teams there who didn't make this thing. Nets, of course, went three and one as well. Magic, very deserving to be in this but aren't. And, you know, as we mentioned, the day's just not lining up. Like if you played each team in your group twice, I don't think the point differential would be as big of a deal.
06:31 You really wouldn't have these things on the last day where you run up the score. Maybe in a few cases you would and it would still be fun. And you'd have a better sample of who actually played the best out of the group rather than just an injury on this night deciding who wins the group.
06:46 Yeah, I would say too, like from the Bulls perspective or the Magic's perspective, don't rip the Bulls off so bad in a trade and maybe they would have put up more of a competitive fight. Like don't give up those draft picks for Nick Vucevic who was just a traffic cone at this particular point in time. That was a terrible trade when they made it and it looks even worse right now considering the fact that you wouldn't even, I know he's injured right now, you wouldn't trade Wendell Carter for Vucevic right now if the contracts matched, right?
07:11 Like Wendell Carter is a more valuable NBA player. So that's the first part of it. And in terms of the point differential, I agree with you that maybe one more game or something along those lines. Like my boss, Bill Simmons, tweeted out that essentially he would be down to do instead of the six groups, go to five groups and make it basically all regional.
07:30 So essentially what you would have is the Celtics, Knicks, Nets, 76ers, Wizards, Raptors in one group, Bucks, Bulls, Pacers, Pistons, Cavs, Wolves, Heat, Magic, Hornets, Hawks, Pelicans, Grizzlies, and another. Then you would have the Spurs, Rockets, Mavs, Thunders, Nuggets, and Suns, and then the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Kings, Jazz, Portland.
07:47 So then in that particular case, you would have five group winners and three wildcard teams, plus you would play an extra game during the group round. So maybe the point differential wasn't as obvious as it was in some of these situations. And obviously the Celtics one was the most egregious one.
08:04 I would also just look at it like that's a regular season game too for the Bulls. Like they just didn't show up. And like Zach Levine was the main piece of that where I don't know why anybody would want to trade for that guy at this particular point. So I feel like that.
08:17 Yeah, I feel like that game kind of exaggerated everything. But in terms of from where this thing started, like the courts, obviously that's an issue of Jalen Brown was slipping on the court and you saw other players slipping on the court.
08:28 The fact that Grant Williams was shooting warmups and the three point line was too far away. That's an issue. But going from the first day and I guess the Jalen thing is not the first day to where it is now. I mean, it's pretty crazy to think about everybody was killing this thing for the first couple of days of it. And now everybody's pumped up about it.
08:47 So I think it's kind of cool that it went from this thing stinks to all this thing's awesome. And now everybody wants to go to Vegas.
09:07 Yeah, I think there need to be some better explaining or explanations more clear explanations about the scenarios. And when it came down to points, I know Hollinger was tweeting about how the matchups are actually going to come out. And I felt like I had a pretty good handle on this. But once the Celtics actually won the game, I had no clue where they were going. I couldn't figure it out on the fly.
09:27 I think Indiana was four and oh, and then the Bucks won and pass them, I guess. So they end up playing the Knicks and then the Celtics end up with Indiana there. So even me, who was pretty locked in on this thing right through last night, trying to read all the different scenarios, ended up pretty confused in the end about what the matchups were going to be here just based off how the results went out there.
09:49 It was all dependent on how many points to heat one by there. So that's the real downside, I'd say, to the point differential. Fans love the fourth quarter last night across the board, I think. And if the players weren't comfortable with it, so be it. I don't think that's as big of a deal. There just has to be, I think, more understanding and clarity among fans what's going on out there.
10:12 Because even though they put the score up on the board that the Nets were up by two, I don't think anyone in the building really understood what that meant or how much they need to win back. Because on the other hand, the Celtics had a win by 23, but the Nets had a win but not win by too much. So if they ran it up a little bit last night, and they did late, I think they got up to like 15 in the late minutes of that game, the Nets would have been in over the Celtics and then everybody's head would have been spinning.
10:40 So it's confusing. There's no doubt about it.
10:44 Yeah, I think one thing they can do is, and I know apparently the NBA app had a thing crunch time or whatever. I don't understand why you don't just put like basically the red zone on NBA TV. I guess that's what crunch time was. I'm not the biggest fan of the NBA app. I feel like it never works for me. It only lets me stream things my lead pass on one computer instead of doing it on my it's a whole it's a whole thing for me. So I'm not the biggest NBA app guy. I would just hire Scott Hansen for a night. I'm sure he'd do it right and have him do it like he does the red zone.
11:11 Every Sunday like who would be better than that. And I also think like all the broadcasts and Mike Gorman and scout did a good job kind of like keep going and they were going back they were showing graphics of like the other games but they should just have the other scoreboards.
11:24 And then later on, I'm watching Golden State and Sacramento, and it was essentially like now Sacramento just ended up winning the game, Golden State choked it away but Golden State had to win by 12 Sacramento if they lost by 11 or less they would have been in.
11:38 So they should have had just a different scoreboard next to that one with like the aggregate score of what the margin had to have been and I felt like there should have been I know you were tweeting out a lot during the game like the differential and updating it there should have just been a site.
11:52 And if there was one I didn't see it that was just solely the point differential or just flipping up and down so people could actually sort of monitor that thing but to the individual part of it from a Celtics aspect here when they had to when Joe had to talk to Billy Donovan I know Donovan the only thing he was really pissed about was the Andre Drummond thing.
12:12 Yeah, he was missing free throws. But like, I totally understand why the Celtics did it they thought it was an advantage clearly it was because he was missing free throws left and right but the other thing is, you can't really warn the other team about that until it's happening right because what is Joe supposed to do?
12:25 Hey Billy I know it's a tough season for you guys, if we get up by like 20 in the third or the fourth quarter, we're going to keep going for it like you're going to tell your opponent that before the game so like if you're the if you're the opposition you kind of have to know what's at stake here like we saw what was going on at the start of it Friday if you're the Bulls you have to expect this going to happen not to mention the ball how many games they play for the Bulls had a controversial thing and two of them.
12:49 They were already mad about the Raptors situation when they played Toronto like the Toronto was having their guys in late. What did you think was going to happen this time you didn't think that the Celtics are going to do the same thing so I mean, they just maybe just be better than doing all this complaining if you're them.
13:04 Well, that was the funniest part and the question did come up in Billy's pregame about the expectation that the Celtics were going to try to run this up.
13:24 It's just so obvious that the Celtics were able to do that because the Bulls are horrible. And this just did come down to them getting blown away here as they have for most of the season I think part of their reaction is that they're mad and frustrated at themselves for the start, as they are the Celtics for doing whatever they did last night and, you know, drumming, we try to get them last night he didn't want to talk about it and the one thing that was interesting that he said to us was, I'll answer questions about basketball I'm not talking about the free throws.
13:53 I just want to talk about basketball. And that is kind of the mindset that a lot of players have about this it seems is that this whole thing here is some extraneous fake gimmick that's being placed upon the game here and it's a little frustrating to hear Jalen say it to like drew, you know, whatever veteran professional doesn't want to rub, he knows a lot of guys on the other side I'm sure them the wrong way.
14:20 Jalen was in this process of creating it coming up with rules, figuring out how this thing was going to work and I know the NBA was pushing this more than the players were.
14:31 And he had a lot to say at a certain point and he more than anyone should have understood the implications of that. And I hate hearing him say last night that maybe you just get rid of this, because it was awesome.
14:43 Like whatever discomfort they felt should have been cleared up should have been easily easy to move past, just because of how clear the implications were going into the game I mean it's one thing for fans to be confused.
14:56 But I think for the amateur player going into this, you should have a pretty good understanding of what the scenarios are and what you're playing for going into it because even if you think it's fake even if you think it's bogus.
15:08 It's part of the schedule now it's part of the league it's part of this tournament so if you want to be in it you have to embrace it.
15:15 So I think the defense of the league and the players who helped put this whole thing together. Nobody knew the point differential was going to be this big of a thing when they actually made it right.
15:25 Like a lot of people thought the Celtics were just gonna go 4-0 in the group like the Magic have been one of the biggest surprises in the NBA like everybody knew they had a nice young core, but do people think to start the season what were 18 games in for the Celtics that they would be the second best team from a record perspective.
15:41 You go and get blown out by the Magic by 22 points or whatever 17 to go up to 22 that forces you to drop the 30 points on Chicago because you were letting the score run up on the Orlando side the other night so it's all connected.
15:57 Yeah, no, yeah, you're exactly right on that so, and so I don't I feel like all right, it may be the point like I'm sure it was uncomfortable for certain guys on the team where like drew holidays buddies with tomorrow Rosen, and he's out there late in the fourth quarter and they're trying to get it to like 30 points or whatever like I'm sure that does feel uncomfortable from in some angle, but in some ways like that's not your competition the bulls aren't your competition is try to make it to the in season tournament try to.
16:26 So it is competition for the Celtics like they didn't take their foot off the gas whatsoever and for a team that at times has played around with this food late in games we've seen this for the past couple years and another thing they've struggled with is the third quarter they came into that game last night 29th in the NBA and offensive rating in the third quarter.
16:46 This is the Boston Celtics one of the best teams in the NBA like how is that possible and their offense was not spectacular in the third it was spectacular in every other quarter, but they won the quarter 28 to 18 which for me that's an accomplishment for the Celtics considering for some reason they've been so bad in the third quarter so I thought it forced them to keep their sort of their foot on the gas pedal, which is something that they let's face it they struggle with another thing they've done throughout this tenure over the past two years with Joe Missoula is they love walking the dog.
17:15 In the fourth quarter and slowing down the pace playing slower than they ordinarily would.
17:20 And in this game they couldn't so I thought it got outside of their comfort zone so I enjoyed every minute of it I'm really fired up for Tuesday night.
17:27 I was saying this last night think about this the Celtics by the 76 was on Friday, which is obviously a huge game. Most people believe that 76 was right now, based on the way Milwaukee is playing the fact that they can't cover anybody that Philadelphia is the second best team, and they have in the east they have a chance to make a move, even if maybe people say eventually logo to the honest figures it out, the team that I saw the night before Thanksgiving, that team is not competing with the Celtics in the seven game series like and I know, oh they're going to get Jay Crowder back okay great like what are you going to put them on Jason Tatum.
17:56 I come on, I mean, maybe like six years ago when Jason maybe when Jason Tatum was still a Duke Jay Crowder Jason Tatum, not at this point in time, so I should be more fired up for that Philly game, especially considering those two teams have a little bit of rivalry, but I'm more fired up for Monday, where they go and they play in Indiana against Halliburton one of the up and coming stars in the NBA.
18:16 He was saying I can't remember who said it might have been Tim bond temps were Haliburton is never played on TNT like he's finally going to play on TNT for the first time, Indiana we know this and I know they haven't played relevant basketball in a while I mean, I think their last playoff series was with the Kyrie Celtics where they swept him I was in the bubble.
18:35 Oh, they were in the bubble okay so they were in the bubble too but they have my point being they haven't played a lot of relevant games, they're going to have a crazy crowd like Indiana we all know it's a great basketball state like even going and I know going back to Reggie Miller but when it was the Paul George Pacers with Hibbert in that group, David West that in George Hill like those teams had awesome crowds against the Miami Heat like I think that's going to be awesome.
18:58 And for me to be more excited about a team that is second to last in the NBA and defensive rating, then playing a rival of yours in the Philadelphia 76ers on a Friday night, that tells you that this tournament is a success.
19:10 Yeah, that was what I was most curious about coming into it what kind of teams would make this would it be the best teams period Celtics nuggets Denver obviously doesn't make it an injury is a big part of that, but you do end up with the Lakers sons Celtics here.
19:25 So it's a good mix of teams here it's a competitive group of teams some contenders, some up and comers who might surprise people and go on a run here.
19:45 I'm excited about that and to go back to your Missoula points. I thought it was his finest night as his team's coach just in terms of how he managed it, how he explained himself after I thought it was one of his most interesting pressers.
19:59 Yeah, he did a great job managing this and as you said, grouping in the things that they needed to play better at rebounding and, you know, pace and all those different things offensively moving the ball I mean they had been ranked among the lowest passing teams in the NBA and then they come up with 36 assists in this game.
20:18 I loved how they were able to fold in focusing on themselves and improving some things that had slipped over the last five six games coming into this with getting this score and, you know, reaching the tournament and he explained it so well that I wasn't going to have them focusing on the number here chasing that number.
20:39 I was going to have them focus on playing well and getting there naturally and I thought that was just a really good coaching move. And it's not just him saying it, we saw it play out on the court, like it worked the the mindset the approach that he was instilling on the team going into this and I think that more than anything, you know, for all the doubts has been about Joe here over the last year and change shows that he does have the pulse of this team.
21:06 You know, like I think he does have a good handle on the soccer room on these guys getting them to play the right way and emphasizing the right things like I always am curious about how he like you know we talked about the numbers here.
21:20 He's a very analytical guy, he's talking about a lot of numbers and margins and stuff like that. That can be tough I think to, you know, disseminate to a team or at least emphasize day in and day out, but he has them staying attuned to that stuff.
21:35 Yeah, I'm with you.
22:02 It does feel like he's more comfortable too and I give him I have some empathy for the role that he was put into last year. Here's a team that just went to the NBA finals. They loved their coach, the coaches in a huge controversy. You're on the second row, and there's guys on the staff that could have easily thought hey, whether it's Ben Sullivan, Damon Stoudemire, I deserve the job over Joe.
22:21 So then you got to rally those troops and you got to rally the team and at the time some of the players were still upset even like remember when E May was rumored to go to the Nets like that became another talking point with the Celtics players where they wanted E May back in the league.
22:34 So that whole situation so and I do think it's huge who he surrounded himself with right like now it's his guys and his guys are actually elite assistant coaches when we're talking about Sam Cassell. All you got to do is watch Jason Tatum all the work that he's doing in the post.
22:48 And we know that Charles Lee has been a final this past season he or this past offseason he was a finalist for a bunch of head coaching jobs like he's probably going to get a job in the next cycle and it works out perfectly that oh here comes through holiday who we coach for all these years and he like personal like position coach if you will.
23:06 So I think he's definitely more comfortable. The one thing that still concerns me about the Celtics offensively now their post ups are way up Tatum is up to three point one a game which is 10th in the NBA.
23:16 He's uber efficient for his English is super efficient in the post but they still like they take the most threes in the NBA in terms of the frequency but they don't get to the free throw line.
23:27 They don't score at the basket. So all those things do concern me a little bit in terms of all right like they have all this talent and they can do it so many different ways. I do wonder like in their drives they have their second last in the NBA in drives per game and Tatum from a drive perspective is one of the most efficient players in the league as well.
23:46 So I do wonder at times if they do get a little bit to three point reliant and I feel like this is a conversation now that we've had for a year and a half but it did rear its head in the postseason right where they were like a bad defensive team against two point shooting last year and the Celtics just kept checking threes.
24:03 Yeah. And you go back to the decision making those two stars the playmaking numbers aren't great with either of them to start this year the turnovers are high with Jalen they've creeping up with Jason to I feel like it's been a handful of games right now where he's had four or five turnovers last night.
24:19 Yeah. So that's always going to be a conversation with them. Fortunately you have those three release valves for them in Porzingis who you can basically just throw to and get a basket out of or holiday and white who you can rely on as playmakers.
24:34 I thought they did a great job of that in this game, letting them find Jalen cutting Horford to a real nice infusion of playmaking from him in this one too. So you have other guys that you can rely on to make the plays for them.
24:48 I do feel like sometimes they get away from that a little bit. I mean white had an 11 assist game recently and he never turns the ball over. So there are guys that they can lean on to do that thing that the two stars are weakest at and a big man that they can throw to and score at a, you know, well over 50% clip inside the arc in Porzingis now.
25:07 So they have all those things at their disposal just comes down to decision-making with this group still. I mean, they've stacked talent on talent on talent going back really three years since that awful 2021 team and the same issues exist and it goes back to those guys.
25:21 And I know a lot was made up out of ground after the Charlotte game and rightfully so, but it's Tatum too. Like the pace goes back to him a lot of the time, walking the ball up.
25:30 You know, the driving as you mentioned there, that's got to be him setting that tone. The pick and roll numbers really haven't been good for Tatum either. I'd start this year. I think worse than Browns at least last time I looked at it.
25:41 So you still have a playmaking offensive issue with this team and that goes beyond just the amount of threes they take or the shot distribution. It's really about decision-making and fortunately the one thing that does make me feel a little bit at ease Brian is that they've been great in the clutch.
25:58 And that shows the impact of the new players they have and their ability to lean on those guys in those situations. You just wonder of course with Porzingis down, is he going to be able to sustain through this whole run here?
26:12 Because I love what Horford gives them here, but it's what Porzingis gives this offense that really makes it a different kind of team than we've seen in the past.
26:19 Yeah, I love Reserve Al because the minutes are down almost five per game. So this is the whole thing. Remember last year his shooting completely dipped off in the postseason. Get that guy to the finish line healthy because we've already seen in these big games, he was awesome on a beat.
26:33 I go back to, this guy's already defended the second most isolation possessions in the NBA and he's 37. We saw it at the end of the Hawks game, he blocked Trey Young. He got switched on to Trey Young and he blocked Trey Young.
26:43 He's still so good at that. That's my favorite part of his game, switching on to the guards.
26:47 So you still have that. And then the other thing I would say in terms of, he's been great for this team lately. I really think that it was a big adjustment going from, this guy has a chance, he's probably going into the Hall of Fame, right?
27:00 Because it's the basketball Hall of Fame. He's a two-time national champion. He's been an all NBA guy. If they eventually win a championship, he's going to get into the Hall of Fame. He's been a really good player for, he's 37 years old, right?
27:11 So I think he's got a really good shot at the Hall of Fame, but I mean, that's a digression here. But late in these games, I think the one thing that I would point to in terms of the overall thing that I'd like to see more, just in general, more Derek White.
27:23 Derek White, there was a point in the second quarter where he made like five straight plays that should have resulted in baskets. And one of them was just like Hauser missed an open three. That's going to happen every once in a while.
27:33 But if you're pointing...
27:34 The second quarter against the Hawks, he takes over.
27:36 Yeah, he did this last year too, when Tatum was dealing with the ankle situation in game seven, and he just took over that game in the third quarter. And I just feel like when I look at it, I feel like, okay, so he's right now, he's fifth in usage rate out of the main guys.
27:49 So, okay, you can understand that, but you look at his numbers, he is so efficient. And then the one thing you think about is he has played just 99 of his minutes without Tatum. In those minutes, the Celtics have a 7.1 net rating and a 117.2 offensive rating.
28:06 So that's basically a top six offense and a top 14 in net rating. So Jalen, you look at him without Tatum, it's a 3.6 net, which is still fine, but the offensive rating is 112.2, which would be about 18 compared to Derek White that's top six.
28:21 So I think like they, it feels like to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, you watch every game too, you're there at most of them. It feels like to me, Derek White is matched up a lot with Tatum. To my point, it's only 99 minutes without Tatum.
28:33 What I would do more often is let Derek White just run the show when Jason Tatum's not on the court, because Tatum's like lineup proof, whoever you put on the court with Tatum. So I would rather Tatum like stay paired up with Drew and Derek White play with Jalen and Porzingis more.
28:50 Because like one of the developing things is obviously the whole Jalen Porzingis thing, but the numbers with Jalen and Porzingis on the court with no Tatum, it has not been great.
29:02 But if you throw White in there, White, Jalen and Porzingis with no Tatum, it's just 47 minutes, but it's a plus 13.4 net. Jalen and Porzingis without Tatum and White, they are being outscored by 18.5 per 100.
29:16 So it's only 33 minutes. But I just feel like it almost still feels like to me that the coaching staff, maybe they do. I know like the front office does, obviously.
29:27 I don't think they know how good Derek White is. Like Derek White is incredibly efficient. He's their best decision maker. Like you mentioned Horford with the passing. The best two passers on the team are Derek White and Al Horford.
29:37 So I do think that they should be running more offense. Like you point out the playmaking with Tatum. It still is not where you'd like it ultimately to be.
29:44 Well, one way to do that is take the ball out of his hands more often and let Derek White run the show. He to me is the best true point guard on the team in terms of running an offense.
29:53 I think he's much better of a decision maker than Drew. Like Drew has some turnovers too that make you kind of scratch your head. So that would be my one critique is just run things through Derek White more.
30:03 Yeah, there was a funny play with Drew last night where he caught the ball, but it went through his hands. He still went up and finished like he had in his hands. He does some stuff like that that makes your head spin.
30:14 But White's got the best pick and roll numbers on the team. He's got the lowest turnover rate. You're 100% right about that. And you've seen in recent games when he gets more opportunity, he makes the most of it.
30:24 I think from a coaching standpoint, the challenge for them is that he's so low maintenance and so unwilling at times to assert himself just to sacrifice for the other guys that it can be tough to be pushed in that direction.
30:39 And luckily Tatum does it. You hear Tatum a lot saying that he's got to be more aggressive, that he's got to get the ball and do his thing. But you're still managing that Brown thing because he talked about over the last couple of games.
30:50 He still wants to be a playmaker. He still wants the ball in his hands. He wants to develop that side of his game. And you do see the moments where it looks like he might be capable like that Milwaukee game.
31:02 But there's just so much more bad than good there. And you hate to pick on him because he gets it day in and day out. And he's an incredibly important part of this team's offense with how efficient of a scorer he is.
31:15 But at a certain point, like you mentioned Tatum, you know, taking a sacrifice there to get like the ball. But the guy who really does have to sacrifice the most to make this work, and fortunately he's stated a willingness to do it is Jalen.
31:29 He's got to be off the ball. He's got to be a cutter like he was last night. Got to screen a little bit more to free himself in the lane and really stay in the lane as an offensive player, catching and finishing because that's his strength.
31:41 Shooting the mid range shot. He still hasn't shot the three all that well this year. You know, game in and game out.
31:49 They got to figure out where he's best positioned on this team because I think anybody else with the ball in their hands, something decent is going to happen.
31:58 For Jalen, you're still looking at a guy who's averaging 3.6 assists and 2.4 turnovers a game. And it just doesn't seem like it's ever going to get better. And every player has weaknesses. That's his. The ball handling, the playmaking. He has a lot of other parts of his game that are great.
32:15 But in order for him to be consistent and this offense to be consistent because he's such a big part of it, volume wise, he's got to find that spot where he can contribute night in and night out and still feel good about himself.
32:30 So obviously I think that's a big part of this is, you know, not necessarily managing his ego, but he's a star in this league. He's got to have the touches. He's got to have the ball time. It's part of it. And so I think that's the balancing act for this coaching staff between, you know, having white run lineups and having brown run lineups is, you know, trying to keep Jalen involved and active.
32:51 Because the other thing for him too is the defense. Like when he's hitting shots, when he's in the flow, you're getting a different Jalen defensively that you need. And then when it's not going his way, he can just be baffling on that end of the floor. So he really is the swing guy on this team.
33:06 Yeah, it can be infuriating because it's not like when he's focused to your point, think about the Harden thing last year when he took on that matchup in the postseason, like he can do it one on one every once in a while. But the thing that aggravates you defensively or me, I should say defensively, how many times he going to get back cut where he's just falling asleep like he doesn't know where his guy is. That's another thing that does slightly aggravate me about this team as great as they've been.
33:27 They over help a lot. Like there was a play last night where Drew had to Rosen and Banton came over to help him when there was a shooter in the corner. I'm like, do you know who that is? Like, it's Drew Holliday. You don't have to remember this guy that was covering him. He's covering.
33:40 He's done that a lot throughout this. Yeah, well, help him with holidays. Like what? Yeah, they over help him. Like what's going on here? So and then in terms of Jalen, so that's one thing is defensively. But it does feel like if you look at his numbers, they're down last year from like we saw a sign of it last night. He had eight fast break points, 16 points in the paint, which those are the numbers you want to see from Jalen Brown.
34:02 Like you go back to post all star break last year, he was fourth in the NBA in points in the paint, and he was first in fast break points. Now, the problem with the fast break points is the Celtics don't turn you over at all.
34:13 That's another thing they don't do. They don't force turnovers. I know they've sort of incorporated the press at times to try to I don't know if that's trying to force turnovers or trying to just slow down the opponent, whatever it is.
34:24 I like the idea, but so they don't get out and run as much as you would like to see. And that would certainly favor Jalen. My one concern about the two man game with Porzingis is I feel like he's really committed to it now, which that makes me think like, hey, Derek White should be running that.
34:40 Like, let's give Derek White the ball and like Jalen goes in the corner or hey, Tatum can run that with Porzingis. Like I feel like Jalen, since he found this one thing and he clearly wants to be a better playmaker, I just don't think it's what's best for his for the team is for him to be sort of running the show as often as we've seen at times this season.
35:00 But the other element is the three point shooting you mentioned. There is no reason that Jalen should be taking as many threes as he is. He's taken seven point two, which is 21st in the NBA. He's one hundred and twenty second in percentage. That that just why? And he's the one guy that I'll say this and I like Jalen.
35:19 Like this is going to come across as like I don't like Jalen, but he's the one guy on this team that I think at times it's just like, hey, I haven't got my shot in a while. I'm going to take a shot on this possession and you can almost see it like when it's going to happen.
35:32 Like you'll get the ball in the way and you're like, OK, there's no chance he's passing this ball. He's he's going to shoot it. So and I am empathetic because to your point, he does have to make the biggest sacrifice.
35:42 Like Tatum's the guy he's not making a sacrifice. There's nobody on the team like Porzingis. So Porzingis is going to get his opportunities. Now, I would argue they should use him even more on offense.
35:51 But no matter what, he's going to get his opportunities because he's going to be the screener every time he's on the court. So Jalen is kind of the guy that has to make the biggest adjustment.
36:01 Absolutely. But overall, it's been good so far. The offense in that top 10 territory through the schedule so far, defense has been better, I feel like, than a year ago. And now they get this in-season tournament to look ahead to.
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37:45 So it is going to be the Celtics and the Pacers on Monday. I think it's a good matchup for Boston. The Knicks would have been tricky. And of course the Bucs went well for the Celtics last time around.
37:57 But more fully formed roster. Bigger star on the other side. A team you played recently which can sometimes be a thing.
38:05 The Pacers are interesting just because Hal Burton didn't play that in the first game. They ended up being the 50 point win. It's an awful defensive team. Just brutal. They'll give up as many points as they score more often than not.
38:19 And it has been a historic offense here. But it is the kind of team that can give the Celtics some issues in terms of their up and down pace. The amount of threes that they're able to get off.
38:28 And that dynamic playmaker at the center of it all. Trying to figure him out. I feel good about them winning this one. But you do worry like you said. The crowd going crazy. How much they want this as a team that hasn't even been to the playoffs recently.
38:41 Those things might give them a little bit more urgency in this game than the Celtics have. Especially on the road.
38:48 Yeah. And imagine if the Warriors took him number two overall in the COVID year. Hal Burton. Or LaMelo even. I understand Hal Burton wasn't going to go number two based on the draft resume coming in.
38:59 But they didn't take LaMelo. Instead they took James Wiseman. He's now what? On the bench for the Detroit Pistons.
39:06 But the one thing that does scare you is the offense is incredible. Hal Burton is shooting in the mid 40s too. From three point territory. He's getting you at least 10 assists per game.
39:15 And he's doing it with the shooting. That team is obviously playing at his pace. They've gone all offense. Buddy Heald who it felt like at times he had issues with the organization.
39:24 Now he's all in in the starting lineup. They've inserted him into the starting lineup. They just jack up threes. So if this was like a playoff series. A first round series. You'd say ok.
39:33 Yeah they may take a game. But the Celtics are going to win this thing relatively easily. Because this is one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA.
39:40 But in a one off situation it scares you. The one thing that has me feeling. Now obviously the Celtics are clearly the better team.
39:46 The one thing that has me feeling really optimistic is the way they treated Chicago. They're clearly into it. So I think what's going to happen with this Hal Burton matchup.
39:54 Everybody knows that he's going to be hyped up entering the game and deservingly so. He's their biggest star and he's been. He's a fringy MVP candidate right now.
40:02 If the Pacers end up with the top six seed in the Eastern Conference he's certainly going to deserve all the credit. But I think these guys. The Derek White's.
40:10 The Drew Holliday's to a lesser extent. Jason Tatum when he gets his opportunity. But mainly Holliday and White. I think they're going to be fired up to go against them.
40:18 Right. When it's like OK we got to slow this guy down. These are two all NBA defenders just a season ago. So I think the Celtics are going to win this thing relatively convincingly.
40:28 Just because they're going to be all in. If this is just a normal Tuesday night game or I should say Monday night game maybe it would be different.
40:36 Right. Maybe they wouldn't match the energy of Indiana at home because we know that Indiana would be fired up just because it's the Celtics.
40:42 They're at home. Indiana's a story right now in the NBA. The Celtics are the favorites when the NBA championship. They'd be up for it.
40:48 But in this case because it's the in-season tournament I do feel like the Celtics are going to bring the necessary energy to an inferior opponent which at times over the past two years.
40:56 We haven't always seen. The Charlotte would be an example that they were great in the first half and then they kind of fell asleep at the wheel.
41:02 I don't see that happening in this situation. So I think the Celtics I haven't seen the line on that yet but I imagine it's going to be something like eight and a half or something even if it's in Indy.
41:10 Last night that game was like 11 and a half. I took it on an alternate spread 24 and a half plus 330 because I'm like the Celtics are going to try to run this thing up no matter what they say in the Bulls.
41:20 They're going to play their part. So I think the Celtics win this game by double digits and then we'll get the showdown against Milwaukee in Vegas which will be awesome because I don't think that now Milwaukee could be upset.
41:32 But I just I'm not going to bet against Giannis and Lillard when it's Randall on the other side. I mean at times Randall can't. What is he south of 40 percent from the field right now.
41:41 Yeah he's had a rough start for them with what's been an overall good start for the team. Dominant defense as you expect from them. He is at 39 5. I know he's been dealing with injuries at different points and stuff but 27 5 percent from three.
42:02 Yeah he's he's he's weird man like every other season is bad for him and Brunson's having an outstanding season for them. RJ Barrett's actually having a good season for them as well. I would I would rather I mean from a selfish perspective like you probably say the easier path is to play the Knicks than the Bucs even though the Knicks have this great defense.
42:20 From a selfish perspective I'd rather see them play the Bucs and I think most people and even though it's New York most people want to see that again. Right. Like Giannis and Dame versus Tatum and Jalen and hopefully Porzingis can play in that game. Doesn't look like he's going to play Friday right but he could play Monday. I heard him say that on the broadcast last night.
42:37 Yeah he's looking at a week there and he did shoot around pregame last night so he's back on the court. Did some lifting yesterday as well I believe so. He's getting closer. That could be part of the weirdness of that night though is integrating him back in. But it's it's been a bad matchup for Indiana honestly. Like they've handled everything that's come their way so far this season for the most part. And then on that night again no Haliburton but they're just blown away completely in that game.
43:04 And then last year there was one bad loss I remember the Celtics had against them but otherwise they took care of business against this team. Neesmith can't really stay with Brown and Tatum even though he's had a pretty good year so far. Not a lot of perimeter defenders on that side. Miles Turner is good rim protector but I don't see them winning either. The line is, had it right in front of me, 5. So Celtics come in as 5 point favorites.
43:29 Whoa.
43:36 That's kind of crazy to me that it's only a 5 point line. I bet the money's gonna come in and I get it's home court and all that but I bet the money's gonna come in heavy on the Celtics. I watched a good portion of that, I had it on one of the other screens, that Atlanta Indy game. Like did you see that?
43:57 The 150 games right?
44:25 Yeah. I mean, his 3 point shooting has never been consistent. He'll have years where it's really good and then he'll have years where it's like 32 or 31 percent so nobody else really scares you on that team. I do want, like I wonder if they come up with any interesting strategies for that game that they wouldn't ordinarily use like does, and I know Gio talked about process last night, but do they put more emphasis into the scouting report in this game sort of like a play, not to the extent of a playoff series but like 65 percent of the prep you do for a playoff series for this one game against Indy.
44:54 Yeah, I don't know how you handle that. And they're not a team that's done that a ton. Like they're usually gonna drop back and give up the midrange, especially if Poitingas is in there. But like you said, they've pressed, they've done a lot of interesting stuff defensively this year, which I've been thrilled about. Most pleasant surprise is how versatile and how well they've handled the offense.
45:23 How versatile and dominant at times they've been defensively. Rarely capped by that opening night win against the Knicks. It still excites me about the defensive possibilities with Porzingis here. So it's gonna be interesting. Overhenders 235, of course.
45:39 Yeah, aces game.
45:42 Yeah, so they got fortunate here. I mean, if they're at the Knicks and they could have been, as I mentioned, just because the point differential, I guess the wild card wasn't automatically at the bottom. I guess that would have been really tough going to New York. That's been one of the tougher matchups for the Celtics over the last couple years here. And then we'll see what happens on that side. And it will obviously be in Vegas, which I'm really excited about. I'm going to be heading out there. We'll have coverage of the Celtics move on from the first in-season tournament out there in Vegas.
46:11 A lot of other good games too. Suns, Lakers is interesting. Lakers, starters, two-point favorites. Kings five over the Pelicans. And that's it. You got your eight teams right there. So we'll be watching all. Brian gonna podcast about it over at Off the Pike, over on the Ringer Podcast Network. Always great talking to Brian, following along on Twitter for all the different stats, lineups and observations.
46:37 He throws out over there, great, great Celtics follow as well as the Pats, which I don't know how you've done it this year with content for them. We're doing over here too, somehow. We hired a guy, Taylor Kiles, who first year on the beat, this is what he's up against, which is fun.
46:56 It's horrible, man. It really is. I actually said this on my pod after the loss to the Giants. I said, this is the biggest result the Patriots have had since they won the Super Bowl against the Rams after the 2018 season. Because this basically, you're getting a top three pick unless somehow you upset the Chargers, which I don't envision seeing that happening.
47:16 Looks like Zappi's going to start. That doesn't make you feel great.
47:19 Yeah, well, he's probably slightly better than Mac right now, but still, we saw his ability to tank. Yeah, against the Giants, we saw his ability to tank, so I think he can certainly do that. But I even said, like, they're wearing the Pat the Patriot uniforms, like the red ones.
47:33 Oh, yeah, you're very mad about this.
47:35 Oh, yeah, like, don't wear those uniforms when your team's so bad. And people are tweeting at me like they were terrible then, like, this is fitting. I'm like, no, but the uniform's too good. I hate the Patriots all Navy uniforms. I don't know how you feel about those. They turn the color rush uniforms into their regular uniforms, which I despise those.
47:52 So I feel like if you're going to wear a throwback, even if the team wasn't great in the throwback, they did go to the Super Bowl in '85, but even if they weren't great in the throwback, you only wear the throwback when you're good. You don't wear that type of throwback, which is an awesome uniform, when you're in the middle of a tank and you're two and nine and you've been outscored by more than 100 points this season.
48:09 I just don't think you should be celebrating the great uniforms. That's my point. It's not the fact that they stunk in those uniforms and they should keep wearing them. It's the fact that those uniforms are good. Save them for when you're good again.
48:20 What do you think they should do this offseason with the draft, with the coach, with the quarterback?
48:26 Yeah, I think it's inevitable that they're drafting either Drake May or Caleb Williams. I'm all in on Drake. Obviously, I'd take Caleb Williams, too, but I feel like he's going to go number one. I don't think the Patriots can get up to number one because Carolina is such a dumpster fire. With Bryce Young at quarterback, who they traded up to get Bryce Young.
48:43 CJ Stroud went after him and CJ Stroud is significantly better than him. Now, the Panthers don't have the number one pick and it's going to the Bears because they traded for Bryce Young, who's the inferior quarterback to CJ Stroud. I do feel like Carolina is going to get that number one pick, which goes to the Bears. I'd be shocked if they don't take Caleb Williams.
49:01 I think the Pats are going to be in range at that either two or three spot. Arizona would have to lose another game. They have one winnable game left on their schedule, but I think they'll take a quarterback. I don't see any other way around it. In terms of Bill, at this point, I'd be surprised if he's back. I really would, just because all the noise is there.
49:22 We're now four years removed from Tom and it's getting worse. If you look at his stretch here, the past four seasons without Tom, his winning percentage without Tom in the past four seasons is worse than Joe Phillip's coaching record. Those type of coaches, that's how bad it's been. I can't believe that it fell off this poorly, but it's more about roster management than anything else.
49:45 Look at his 2022 draft. The only guys left are Cole Strange, who's 37 right now. They took an old guard in the first round. A non-premium position in the first round with a guy that's old. He hasn't even been that good when he's been on the field. Tyquan Thornton in the second round of that draft. It's just been a dumpster fire.
50:07 Marcus Jones is a return guy, really. He's injured for the season. These running backs they took, you got nothing out of those guys. Jack Jones, you have to get rid of after you start buying with those.
50:19 They're a mess. We'll see. It's going to be interesting. I wonder if the Chargers job will be appealing to Bill if they move on from Bill. At least they have a ready-made quarterback there. The Chargers may be the one team that's like, "Hey, we need somewhat of a splash of a hire." Belichick would certainly be a splash.
50:41 I don't know how good he is. He's 71. I say the Chargers, but I heard all this stuff, or you've seen all this stuff about the commanders. Why would they want Bill? They're not in a position where they're competing now. If you're a rebuilding team—
50:52 No, they just sold.
50:54 Yeah, and we've seen Bill with a rebuilding team. It hasn't been good. Why would you want to rebuild with Bill? The only thing that you would sell yourself on is, "Hey, is he still an elite coach?" Which at this point, I don't really think he is. But if you think he's still an elite coach, then you put him on a team that's ready to compete. I don't see Washington being that team. And ordinarily, it's not good teams that are hiring coaches.
51:14 Yeah, it'd be Dallas, right? That would be the one.
51:17 Yeah. But would he work for Jerry? Now, that would be drama because that's Kraft's arrival as a GM, right? Those are the two biggest owners right now in the sport. But I just can't see him working for Jerry after what happened with Jimmy Johnson. I know Jimmy Johnson's going into the ring of fame, but they had their issues. He had his issues with Bill Parcells. I just don't see him getting along with Jerry Jones.
51:40 Well, we'll see what happens there. I'm glad I don't cover them. Brian Parrott does over at the Off the Pike podcast and all of the Boston sports happening. So we'll save the Red Sox for another day.
51:53 Yeah.
51:56 Great to have you here, Brian. We'll talk to you again soon. And enjoy the rest of the Celtics season as it continues here, the in-season tournament as well.
52:04 Thanks for having me, Bobby.