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Complete story recap and breakdown for The Good Daughter.
You're the responsible one. The strong one. The one who knows better. But who takes care of the first daughter? In many immigrant families, being the first daughter isn't just a birth order. It's an unpaid, lifelong position you never applied for. In this episode of Between Two Worlds with Dr. Phebe, Dr. Phebe sits down with a fellow first daughter and therapist - Khadijah Layne, LMFT, to unpack the invisible expectations placed on eldest daughters, from becoming the family's second parent to learning that obedience, sacrifice, and silence are the ingredients for being a "good daughter." But what happens when being obedient means abandoning yourself? When setting boundaries feels like disrespect? And when you've been taught that your blessings depend on how well you please everyone else? T
You're the responsible one. The strong one. The one who knows better. But who takes care of the first daughter? In many immigrant families, being the first daughter isn't just a birth order. It's an unpaid, lifelong position you never applied for. In this episode of Between Two Worlds with Dr. Phebe, Dr. Phebe sits down with a fellow first daughter and therapist - Khadijah Layne, LMFT, to unpack the invisible expectations placed on eldest daughters, from becoming the family's second parent to learning that obedience, sacrifice, and silence are the ingredients for being a "good daughter." But what happens when being obedient means abandoning yourself? When setting boundaries feels like disrespect? And when you've been taught that your blessings depend on how well you please everyone else? T
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TVTranscript
00:00is that uh you sacrifice your life for something um i think it's also in hopes that someone will
00:06turn and come and help you but i don't think that that ever happens like my mom has helped
00:11a lot of people and my aunt has helped a lot of people and yet our nephews are still on
00:15whatsapp
00:15asking hey hey hey like why is your whatsapp picture changing but you're asking me for money
00:23you got a free college my mom paid for you for free call i didn't get free college from my
00:27mom
00:27you got free college and you have not turned back around you're still reaching out you're
00:32still asking you're still saying keep sending keep sending you know it's wild that you bring up this
00:38like this this whatsapp thing and and people asking for different things and and i think about some of
00:43the people that our parents have invested in over the years and sometimes i ask myself what was the
00:49return on that right right but i'm sure they will convince themselves that the return on that is our
00:56success yeah our well-being because this is what it is and and if you're a person of faith like
01:02me
01:02you're also thinking in the back of your mind well we say that we trust in god and and god's
01:07will is
01:07going to be done so is it really tied to you sending home money yeah when i need to choose
01:13right or i
01:15wanted to go on vacation right and you're like no vacation is a luxury yeah you know we need to
01:19take
01:20about people back home right right that is such a hot button like issue at some episodes ago we had
01:25a conversation about like finances and things like that and i think we might need to have another
01:29conversation about that you know and about these investments that we make in our family members and
01:34the ways in which we kind of reinforce you know this dependence culture yeah right and i know that you
01:41know we have been trained to take care of each other and all of those things but it's like can
01:46we even
01:46like respect our parents and also like disagree with some of the choices that they're making and
01:52how they impact us right can we honor our culture and choose something that our families wouldn't
01:58choose right right could we be the ones to like set the limits around how much money we're sending
02:03home every month right and and saying no to people you know the the excess you know what i'm saying
02:10people that i've never met but somehow know me oh and my whatsapp listen we've had conversations
02:16about that where like i've had to set some limits around that i'm like you know you never give my
02:20number to any family members asking me yeah we don't do any of those things and my parents have
02:25been very you know respectful yeah with me around that but i think also because you know like older now
02:31and there's a different level of like connection that we have but it took a while to even get there
02:35yeah
02:36like it's even thinking about that still scares me yeah you know like i'll still at this point
02:41like i'll go out and maybe like it's in the evening and my heart is still racing like oh i
02:45need to get
02:46back home but it's not even like getting back home to my children because i know they're taking care
02:49of they're protected they're fine this idea of my mother yep yeah right mm-hmm yep yep so so i
02:56even have
02:57to like ask you like can you love your mother and still tell her no that's a loaded question i
03:01don't think
03:02i've ever said no i think i've said a softer like i don't know let me think about that i
03:10can't make the
03:11decision right now yeah i don't think i've ever said no i think i've i've softened it but i think
03:17there's also a part of me that my mom doesn't really ask for a lot right now so there's not
03:21really much
03:22that you know that's going on i think the last conversation we had is i didn't agree with how she
03:27felt like she was disrespectful and i i was she was like well you know in our culture we don't
03:33apologize because family's family and i said and i don't agree with that and so when you're ready to
03:37apologize i will be here but i'm not going to continue wow this and and then the conversation
03:44was done but you know my mom good at you know hanging out about people she's really good about
03:49hitting that end button even though as siblings we all pay for her phone but i can't say like well
03:54we
03:54pay for your phone like she used to but we definitely play for her phone yeah yeah but so
03:59can you be a good daughter and still disappoint your parents absolutely and i have learned how to
04:04disappoint my mom a lot a lot because i think it's at a risk of me if i continue to
04:10placate and i
04:11continue to get small it's at risk to me and i think i initially i think i was like you
04:18know i moved
04:18down to the charlotte area i want to create a home i know that's very important for my mom i
04:23want to
04:24at least have like a bedroom or so she can live with me like the honorable things all of the
04:29things
04:29like i'm gonna move her down here it's gonna be great she just doesn't follow roles either so like
04:35we haven't gotten her here but however i felt like there was so much but i feel like there was
04:39a way in
04:39which like there was also a conversation yeah where that comparison and it's so hard being african because
04:45you're compared to other africans doing other things or caribbeans like my mom was comparing me
04:50to rihanna my mom said you know rihanna got her mama house that's rihanna also do we know what rihanna
04:57sacrificed to be able to get to where she's at to be able to get that house i said wow
05:02i was okay
05:03with being compared to someone at my church but now rihanna is like i i the bar the bar is
05:11the bar
05:11it's too high hi yikes so i do think that there was a way that i recognized that i would
05:18have to
05:19disappoint my mom and i also think yeah me being gay was very disappointing to my mom um and i
05:26was okay
05:26with that i feel like i'm bi but like when i had the conversation my mom i specifically didn't tell
05:32her
05:33because i didn't wanted her to sit with the uncomfortability that i might marry a woman instead
05:37of marrying a man and so you know two can play that game and i wanted her to sit in
05:43that i i just
05:45want to like know how amazing it is and how much strength it must have also taken for you to
05:51like
05:51allow for her to sit in that discomfort because i can imagine you trying to maybe like placate right
05:57trying not to disappoint her either by playing small or minimizing this part of your identity
06:02and just you know well i mean i could still end up with a man you know just kind of
06:07rolling with that
06:08but you didn't do that and i imagine that for people who are watching or listening like that in
06:12itself is such an inspiration too because a lot of us have hidden all of these different parts of
06:19ourselves in order to keep the peace in order to not not disappoint them and all those things and you
06:25talk about even like moving to charlotte and all the things here's a problem like first daughters or
06:29oldest daughters end up leaving home right but then that job description that we talked about
06:34earlier in the episode it still comes with us it still follows us right i have to think to myself
06:40like how does this first daughter role like even show up in in my adult life i moved across the
06:46ocean
06:46and it's still following me right i still had to do all the things right even for you like even
06:51after
06:51moving out like now you're paying her phone bill like you're doing all of these things and still
06:55showing up carrying on these responsibilities but like you how has that role showed up as an adult
07:00like now in your adult life right how is it showing up in your relationships your friendships
07:04and at work i think it's there's a lot of doing that i had to learn to unlearn right i
07:10think even
07:11when i was in grad school like you know we're in greensburg pennsylvania but my mom was still there
07:16was stuff happening at home and she's like blessed my mom's like hey i sent you a text i need
07:23you to
07:23put this and this was before ai now if ai existed i would have been great but like she's like
07:28i need
07:28you to put this letter into something some kind of form i called your brother he doesn't answer
07:32he's at work right and like and you know and she's like i need you to draft this and then
07:37i need you to
07:37print all of this out and i need you to send it to me overnight and it was just like
07:42and then i would
07:42again she'd be like oh show me what you got and it was like i don't like the word of
07:46that let's redo this
07:47it was just like i am this far away and yet i'm yet i have to still draft stuff and
07:54go to
07:54you know kinko's to print something out and overnight it because it's it's a crisis that's
08:00happening in her world um but i think as i've gotten older i've recognized that one there's
08:06going to be times she's going to call that i'm not going to answer because i am doing something
08:10because you're busy you're an adult i'm busy and i'm an adult and i have my own things that i
08:13have to do
08:13right and i think now that i'm older and we're a part in our connection in our relationship i
08:18think there's a part of me that recognizes okay what kinds of relationships do i want to have
08:23tonically and romantically i am not always doing yeah i'm in this era of soft life because it's
08:28working for me go you thank you and so i think the friends i'm making understand my worth is not
08:33attached to what i do yeah if i can come i come if i can't i can't but they don't
08:38require me to always
08:40be on they they allow me to just exist authentically and so i think i have stepped
08:46back and feeling like i have to manage everything or be the best friend or be the good person and
08:52always you know always calling to check in never really wanting to be checked in with because i'm
08:57fine i'm good i'm good but how are you how are you doing what's going on i know i know
09:01i saw this
09:02post it was a little weird how you doing right so i realized that like there's stuff that i'm gonna
09:06miss
09:07but my friends i think have done a really good job in the new friends that i'm making very clear
09:11about like aligning with people that yeah you know can do the same thing and can reciprocate that same
09:16energy i love that i love that i love that for you and imagine like over time you've gotten better
09:21and better with like being more comfortable yeah you know like receiving care rather than giving it
09:27you know because like there's a very interesting paradox there for us as you know first daughters and
09:33women because sometimes that the woman that everybody is describing as so strong so resilient
09:39so reliable like you know all those things privately we're thinking i wish somebody could hold me right
09:46do you notice how exhausted i am and i think in some ways we train people to not even check
09:51in on us
09:51because they think that we've got it yeah yeah you know they think we've got it and we're good yeah
09:56we could have a whole conversation about that you know a whole conversation but i just want to
10:01say that i appreciate your honesty around this because a lot of this too that is really important
10:06for this podcast you know as we're talking about between two worlds is that we don't want to throw
10:11these parts of our culture away right but we also want to name the problematic parts and how it's
10:16showing up for us as adults right because it's not like we don't want the takeaway for those who
10:21are watching or listening we don't want people to think oh our culture is bad or we're bashing our
10:25culture or individualism is good or you know you have to have boundaries boundaries boundaries boundaries
10:30like move away and block everybody no that's not what we're saying there's parts of our culture
10:34that are absolutely beautiful there's the family there's the language there's the food there's the
10:38responsibility there's community right i'm always telling people like i'm not self-made i am community
10:44made right because phoebe is who she is and she's functioning in all these ways and she seems so like
10:49resilient and doing all those because i have a whole system a whole network a whole village that like
10:54holds me together and holds me i'm about to like be outside doing all these things because i have a
10:59mother for
10:59example who is going to help me with my boys and like still show up yeah so there's all these
11:04things
11:04and at the same time you know we are able to like hold on to all of it right and
11:10so for us you know how
11:11do we keep these values without erasing ourselves right especially as first daughters what that gonna
11:17look like right and i think one of the biggest things that i know is that you know even being
11:22sierra leonean we we get agile like we we have so much you know they're right like you can meet
11:27someone
11:28that's sierra leonean and like you can feel it you can feel the culture like even if you're not
11:33sierra leonean african like you can feel the culture you can feel like when you eat food when
11:38you eat fufu like there's just like i feel like i like expand when i eat our food again and
11:45then i
11:45add being caribbean on top of that so i feel like there's so much there's so much and i think
11:50again i have
11:51the honor to have this kind of conversation to have some awareness about it in a way that i'm
11:58having conversations with my brothers and sisters and my cousins yeah in ways that our parents didn't
12:03have the opportunity because they were also surviving like even when i'm thinking about having kids like
12:08i don't think my mom had that conversation about having kids and what that looked like so i recognize
12:13there's some privilege in my ability to have conversations yeah yeah but our culture is phenomenal
12:18like i don't know there's just so much there's food and community and you can meet someone and
12:23you're connected yeah you can just see on their faces on their face yeah right that like they're
12:27they're getting like i just ran into somebody at costco a couple of months ago and i could just see
12:31on her face i was like and then she heard me say something to my my one of my kids
12:35in in chi
12:36yeah and she's like oh you're from ghana too i was like you know you let's exchange numbers
12:41right you know i just love that for us and and i appreciate you like you know saying that too
12:47and
12:47and naming it because again i don't want people to to hear us having these conversations and think
12:53that we are you know way too advanced or we think that we're better than our culture
12:58or anything like that i think it's more about like how do we bridge the gap right how do we
13:03bridge that and so speaking of bridging the gap you know on every episode i have a bridge the gap
13:07tip this one is for the first daughters you know for for us right and so before automatically saying
13:13yes we have to like ask ourselves right if nobody was disappointed by my decision and i'm saying this
13:20for all of us too right if nobody was disappointed what would i choose what would i actually choose
13:27right because it's not it's not you know like our family's needs don't matter not because our culture
13:33doesn't matter like all of those things matter right but our needs also have to be in the equation yes
13:40we
13:40weren't taught that and now we're starting to learn how to also prioritize ourselves the things
13:46that we're needing because we have to build some sustainability yes right we have to build something
13:52that we can keep going with not just for ourselves but also for the generations behind us because we
13:57also want them to do something differently while still maintaining all of these values and these
14:01pieces of our culture right and so you don't have to stop loving your parents if you disagree with
14:07them you can love them and disagree with them you know maybe the n in your no might not be
14:11as strong
14:12and solid but you know what i'm saying like a little subtle like you know what i'm saying so so
14:17you can
14:18you don't have to be selfish right because you know you're you're choosing yourself right and and and
14:24perhaps what it means to be a good daughter is not that we have to be invisible no right we
14:30can be good
14:30daughters and be visible and be ourselves and there's so much beauty in the first daughter
14:36experience i i i wouldn't trade that for the world right right we're we're the leaders we're caretakers
14:43we're resourceful we make things happen and some of us even make things happen in our sleep we should
14:48do when we're coming up with our different scenarios we are and and and we also carry stories we carry
14:54recipes we carry traditions i i'm like the unofficial family historian because i have all of the pictures like
15:00all the aunties uncles yeah all the things i have a little folder have it backed up on a drive
15:04and
15:04then also like an online drive because those are the things that really matter to me i'm big about
15:08like history and memories and things like that so it's not maybe that we want to be less caring or
15:14we
15:14want the generation after us to be less caring it's like realizing that care does not have to flow only
15:21in one direction yes right the care can go back and forth yes right we can be loving and we
15:25can also
15:25allow people to love us because that's one of the things that some of us are still learning how to
15:29right and that maybe our strength is not going to disappear just because we asked for help
15:34yeah right we're not less than because we we disagree right or decided to say i can't do it today
15:40right you know in so many ways we're still learning how to function in these ways and it's a work
15:46in
15:46progress yeah it's a work in progress and there's room for us to be loved yes who we are yes
15:52so as so
15:54as so as so right so so for for every first daughter who is listening watching what do you
16:01want to tell them what do you want to say what's the takeaway i think the one thing that i
16:05want to
16:06say is that one you matter and you're the backbone of the family you you are right um and you're
16:13also
16:14very important to yourself and you have to come home to yourself at the end of the day so regardless
16:20even being the backbone as the family grows you have to know who you are yeah because we can't
16:27have another generation where the first daughter loses herself yeah and then she's just a watery
16:32version for the next for and then every first daughter is taught that i get watered down yeah while
16:37the family continues on um even though it's on the backs of me and even it's on my sacrifice so
16:43i think
16:43you have to come home to yourself you have to come and find your voice you have to come home
16:49to
16:49yourself and find your voice i love that i think we deserve a support group as first daughters i i
16:55i
16:56you know yeah i'm gonna do that i'm gonna i'm gonna start a little support group for us you know
17:00like a little uh four week little group or something yeah so if you're watching or you're listening make
17:06sure that you follow at dr phoebe brackle on tick tock on instagram facebook i think facebook i'm like
17:11sit with phoebe or something i don't use facebook that much but but yeah first daughters we're going
17:15to get a support group very soon and so be on the lookout so thank you so much khadija for
17:21having
17:21this conversation with me for naming some of these things that i know are not easy to talk about so
17:26for
17:26you to come on here and say all of these things and speak your truth and be so funny while
17:31doing it
17:32also i i appreciate it so much thank you thank you thank you for having me yeah this it's been
17:37such a
17:38pleasure and if you're looking for khadija and where to find her i'll put that information in
17:42the show notes and so um we'll be we'll be in touch yes we'll be back for for more we'll
17:48have
17:48some more of these conversations and i also appreciate you all for watching and listening
17:53this season i think it's been such a blessing just to hear the feedback to talk about some of
17:58these difficult topics and i don't take it for granted at all so thank you so much for listening
18:03thank you for being here and i will see you at the bridge