00:00And now back to Europe. Poland is still struggling to resolve a constitutional crisis that has pitted judges against judges,
00:08president against courts and prime minister against president.
00:11Years after the EU launched its unprecedented rule of law battle with Poland, the question remains, can judicial independence be
00:19restored without creating yet another constitutional confrontation?
00:23Joining me now from London is former EU Justice Commissioner Vera Jourova, who was at the center of that battle
00:30to assess where Poland stands today.
00:33Good morning to you.
00:34Good morning.
00:35So you spent years confronting the Polish government over judicial independence.
00:40How worried are you today about the situation?
00:43Well, I indeed, I spent 10 years with this issue and it was maybe the most difficult part of my
00:52portfolio because Poland needs to be strong.
00:56Europe needs strong Poland.
00:59And now the current conflict is weakening Poland in a very unfortunate situation, considering the geopolitical situation.
01:10It was not the case so much when the conflict started in 2015.
01:15And can you have an independent judiciary when judges themselves are divided over which other judges and institutions are legally
01:24legitimate?
01:26This judicial schisma, if I can call it like that, is very unpleasant and it is decreasing the trust of
01:34people in justice and in independent judiciary in Poland.
01:39So these two lines of judges, which is not only the case of the constitutional tribunal, we see it in
01:50the whole judiciary system in Poland, is something which is necessary to solve.
01:56And it is also said by the European courts, there are very clear messages.
02:03Constitutional tribunal is not legally established at this moment and you have to correct things.
02:12This is what the current government tries to do.
02:16Would you say that Poland has reached the point where there is no longer one universally accepted judicial system?
02:25Poland is in this situation over years because there was a cascade of different grievances since 2015.
02:35And the accumulation of problems in Poland in the judiciary is something which the European court called systemic breach of
02:44the rule of law.
02:45So it's broader than just problems in the justice system and it requires corrections.
02:54Right. Does the European Union have the legal and political leverage to force Poland to resolve this crisis?
03:03Well, EU, of course, has the Article 2 in the treaty, which says that each member state has to respect
03:10and promote and guarantee the rule of law in the country.
03:13And so it was the main leverage for the commission, not only in my times, but also now the commission
03:21already made a declaration.
03:24Mr. McGrath, the commissioner of justice, said clearly that constitutional tribunal needs to be able to function in accordance with
03:33the Polish constitution and the case law of the court of justice.
03:38So this is the warning from the side of the commission.
03:41All right.
03:42And I cannot predict what steps will follow.
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