00:00Poland is facing a deepening constitutional crisis with the government and the presidency
00:05locked in a bitter battle over who controls the judiciary. The government under Donald Tusk says
00:11it is restoring the rule of law. President Karol Nowrowski's camp accuses it of trying to seize
00:18the courts. So who is really undermining Poland's democracy and can this confrontation be resolved
00:25before it spirals further? We're going to hear from both sides of the issue. First, I'm joined by
00:31Mikhail Vavrekevich, a member of the European Parliament for the European People's Party,
00:36the party of Donald Tusk. Good morning and thanks for coming on.
00:41Good morning. Thank you for having me. So we've now seen an extraordinary confrontation
00:47with newly elected judges entering the tribunal, the president of the court being challenged and
00:54president Karol Nowrowski personally intervening. Who actually has the legal authority to decide
01:00who sits on the tribunal and who runs it? We are facing the huge constitutional crisis in Poland,
01:10in the Constitutional Court of Poland since 2015 when the Law and Justice Party started the government
01:18and they brutally assaulted the constitutional court. Since that time, we had a lot of violations and
01:28this situation was challenged by all possible courts, also European courts, European courts of human
01:35rights and the court of justice. And they all confirmed that what has happened in 2015, 2016,
01:41and later on, that was the violation. Now we are the government of Donald Tusk and the majority in
01:49the parliament and the judges who were elected by the parliament are trying to restore the rule of law
01:56in the parliament. And what we have seen is that on Friday, newly elected judges entered the
02:07constitutional court and the judge Anna Korvin-Piotrowska ordered the suspension of two judges, the president
02:17and the vice president of the constitutional court, who were appointed by the Law and Justice Party.
02:24So, uh...
02:26Michal, let me ask you this. The government says it is restoring judicial independence after years of political
02:32weaponization under the law and justice party. But isn't the government now doing exactly what it accused
02:38law and justice of doing, using political power to reshape the judiciary?
02:43Definitely not. Uh...
02:45The... the government, the majority in the parliament, and the judges elected by the parliament are acting
02:52according to the rulings of the European courts, of the Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights,
02:59according to what Venice Commission confirmed just two weeks ago, and according to the interim measure
03:05which was issued on the 5th of May this year, allowing these judges to enter the constitutional court.
03:12They were blocked by the president and the vice president of the court, and that's why
03:17Judge Anna Korvin-Piotrowska decided to suspend these two judges, president and the vice president of the court.
03:25And that is what happened on Friday. And later on, in the night, what we have seen was the brutal
03:33assault
03:34of the president of the republic who entered, using force, entered the building of the constitutional court
03:41and using the force almost damaged the judges standing in front of the court.
03:48So this is what we have seen. That was the brutal assault of the president of the republic
03:53on the independence of the constitutional court.
03:56So the European Commission says the same, the parliament, has the constitutional power
04:02to appoint judges to the constitutional tribunal. Does that settle the argument?
04:07Yes, definitely. The only competent authority in Poland to appoint judges of the constitutional court
04:15is the parliament, the lower chamber of the parliament in Poland.
04:19The president does not have any competences to appoint judges. That's why the only right is on the side
04:28of the parliament and the government and the judges who were elected properly by the parliament.
04:33So we are facing the enforcement of law, the restoring of the rule of law and independence
04:41of this most important constitutional court in Poland.
04:44And what is the concrete way out of this crisis now? And what would it take to secure
04:50some sort of cross-party recognition of the tribunal?
04:54Well, the consistency of all of the actions in the next days, in the future.
05:00Tomorrow, there is an assembly, general assembly of all judges of the constitutional court,
05:06and they will decide upon the future of the constitutional court. This is the only competent
05:12body in the constitutional court to decide about the future of the constitutional court,
05:20of the judges, and of the suspended president and vice president of the court.
05:26If Tusk and Nawrotsky refuse to back down, who actually has the power to stop this crisis?
05:34Well, this crisis, as I said, started back in 2015. And this year, President Nawrotsky,
05:42who is trying to block all of the restoration of the rule of law, all of the implementation
05:47of the rulings of the European courts, which is the most important, because these rulings are drawing
05:54the roadmap how to get out of the crisis. But President Nawrotsky needs and wants to keep
06:03the power of his political camp over the constitutional court. So this is the fault of President
06:11Nawrotsky and his camp, that they don't want to restore the rule of law. They want to keep the
06:16political power over the constitutional court. That was the politically manipulated theater of puppets
06:24for 10 years, and they want to keep it.
06:27This is quite an extraordinary crisis. I can't remember anything like it in any other EU country.
06:34Are you worried that this story sort of harms the international, the European reputation of Poland?
06:43Our European friends deeply understand the situation in Poland, because they are facing this
06:50situation for many years. And this situation and also in other parts of the judiciary was discussed,
06:57debated in the parliament, in other institutions of the European Union many times. So I truly believe
07:04that they understand the situation and they understand that the government of Donald Tusk is trying to
07:10restore, rebuild the rule of law in Poland. And we will be fully consistent in that way.
07:18And I believe we will do that. You are right, that this is an unprecedented situation, not only in Poland,
07:25but in the whole Europe. Never happened before. But we are where we are, and we need to act on
07:31the battlefield
07:32where we are.
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