- 9 minutes ago
Ever wondered what the most common mistake is when building a relationship? Shying away from difficult conversations, says couples therapist Ann Philipose.
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00:00What are some of the things people should be talking about even on a first date?
00:04I think everything.
00:06Monogamy is not the default setting.
00:09They have a close friendship with an ex.
00:12Oh, interesting.
00:14This is where I would say it depends.
00:16There's this notion that you should be chilled, especially for women.
00:18Like what kind of crazy woman's already asking on the first date, like, what's your mom like?
00:22What if you actually just want lots of sex?
00:24Women are not allowed to have desire.
00:26She's considered loose.
00:27Very often, I hear men come into session and say, I don't feel emotionally safe, but sex is expected of
00:34me.
00:34Don't you dare judge her.
00:35How much emotional awareness in relationships is too much?
00:40I love this audience.
00:42All been to therapy.
00:48Hello and welcome to Love Matters.
00:51My name is Lisa Mangaldas and this is a very special episode because we have a live audience
00:56and a very special guest.
00:58But before I dive into the topic, I'm going to do a little audience poll.
01:02Are you guys good?
01:03Yes.
01:04All right.
01:05Okay.
01:06Who here finds it difficult to apologize?
01:12Well, we have a very apologetic audience, don't we?
01:16Who here tends to have the same argument again and again with their partner?
01:24More hands.
01:26Okay.
01:27Who here has considered going to couples therapy?
01:34Brings us perfectly to our guest, Anne Philippos.
01:38She is a couples therapist, psychologist.
01:40She's practiced for over 16 years.
01:42She's someone I've long been a fan of.
01:44And I'm so delighted that we get to deep dive into all of the messy bits of the relationship
01:50process that no one trains us for.
01:52There's so many conversations we really should be having earlier and more clearly.
01:57And we're going to talk about all of it.
01:59But Anne, straight off the bat, how should couples know that perhaps it's time to seek help?
02:06Oh, that's a good question.
02:07Well, let me start with the other thing.
02:11And often couples come to therapy when that's the last straw, right?
02:16And that's not helpful.
02:17So when you can come to couples therapy at different points in time, you've just started
02:21dating and you want to get to know your partner.
02:24You want to just, it's a preventive measure.
02:27And when you feel like the way you've been problem solving doesn't work anymore, right?
02:32Go to couples therapy.
02:33Speak to somebody else who is a neutral party, who's objective, who's trained.
02:38That is key.
02:39And that is not a family member.
02:41It doesn't work.
02:43And most Indians go to family members.
02:45It does not work.
02:46What are some of the biggest misconceptions around couples therapy?
02:51Um, the number one is that couples therapy is about keeping the couple together.
02:56It's not, right?
02:57Couples therapy can be about learning to separate amicably, um, to co-parent, right?
03:05Um, it's learning to fight better.
03:09Um, it's learning to talk about and build a vocabulary around sex and money and infidelity,
03:17right?
03:17All of those things come together for couples therapy.
03:20And we're going to talk about all of it.
03:22Um, but before we get into the really tough stuff, let's start at the very beginning.
03:28Like, what are some of the things people should be talking about even on a first date?
03:33I think everything, uh, I think nothing is too early to talk about, right?
03:38Um, especially if you know what you want out of dating, right?
03:43If you're using the partner or the person that you're prospectively meeting to clarify your
03:48position, that's not helpful.
03:50So if you're, um, you look at them and you think there's so much compatibility and chemistry,
03:54this is amazing.
03:56And the other person's iffy about kids and you're like, oh, I'm iffy about kids.
04:00That doesn't work, right?
04:02Um, so we've in the conversation right in the beginning about kids, money, faith, spirituality,
04:10um, health, right?
04:12Not as an interrogation checklist at any given point in time, but out of a point of curiosity.
04:18So early enough is good.
04:20I'm a chronic oversharer.
04:22So I'll be like anyone willing to listen, you know, I want to tell them everything.
04:25But I do think, I do think sometimes in relationships, I myself haven't known clearly enough what I'm
04:33looking for, especially as someone who's not looking for marriage.
04:36I mean, I want companionship and love, but marriage isn't the be all and end all for me
04:41for the trajectory of a relationship.
04:43So what's your advice to people who might be a bit confused about what it is that they
04:47are looking for?
04:49Spend some time with yourself and clarify the position.
04:52If you don't know, that's also fine, right?
04:56Um, you can go in to a date and a conversation or two will help you clarify that.
05:02Sometimes the relationships help you clarify that, right?
05:05If you want kids, don't want kids.
05:07Um, if you want marriage, like you said, or don't want marriage.
05:10But ideally, spend some time with yourself, get to know yourself before you take that
05:15to the other person and project it onto them.
05:18That's not helpful.
05:20For sure.
05:21Okay.
05:21What are some of the very common things that people tend to avoid that they really should
05:27get more comfortable addressing?
05:30Um, okay.
05:32Talking about sex, talking about money, have a conversation about what infidelity looks
05:39like, right?
05:41Monogamy is a agreement.
05:45It's not the default setting, right?
05:47Um, and I think very often I see this with couples.
05:51They don't talk about what infidelity looks like, right?
05:54What is cheating?
05:55And that is dangerous because is liking a post of somebody on Instagram cheating?
06:02Don't know.
06:03Keeping in touch with your ex?
06:05One-on-one coffees cheating?
06:06Who knows, right?
06:08It's about what's comfortable for each other.
06:10How are you defining it?
06:11How are you defining loyalty is key.
06:14The fourth one is family.
06:16How close do you want them?
06:18What are the boundaries around family?
06:19How involved do you want them in your life?
06:22And that is the one that is always left out.
06:26So these are my top four things.
06:29I think early on in the courtship process, you know, there's this notion that you should
06:35be chilled, you know, especially for women, you should be chilled, right?
06:38Like what kind of crazy woman's already asking on the first date, like, what's your mom like?
06:44Oh, you know, what do you, you know, I'm only interested in something that's monogamous
06:50in long term.
06:51What do you want?
06:52Like there's this idea that some sort of nonchalance and like keeping your options open, especially
06:58with dating apps and things, that you should be chilled with this stuff until some conversation
07:02is had, you know, everyone's in a situation ship.
07:06Yes, right.
07:08What do you think that perhaps to some extent gender also has to do with how easily we're
07:15able to convey our expectations?
07:18And what can we do better?
07:20Always be shallant, if that's the word.
07:23Always be shallant.
07:24Yes.
07:25And why should you be any other way, right?
07:28If this is your truth, if these are the things that are important to you, go in because this
07:33person, you can pretend to be a certain way for the first three dates, but this is prospectively
07:38the person you're going to wake up with three years down the line.
07:41How long are you going to keep the pretense going, right?
07:44So ask your questions.
07:46And as for gender, increasingly I'm finding, and I'm talking about heterosexual relationships
07:53right now, I'm finding that both men and women are willing to ask these questions.
07:59The moment they build the vocabulary around it, they're able to.
08:04And this is where I love queer couples, right?
08:07They're incredible.
08:09Each time I've worked with them, they have taught me so much more because they're so comfortable
08:13with their emotions and clarifying questions.
08:17I mean, heterosexual couples have a lot to learn from them, right?
08:20It's amazing.
08:22So yeah, I think increasingly I'm seeing a lot more, but, and this trope that we carry,
08:27right?
08:28The woman who goes in and has all these questions and expectations, I think we've demonized it.
08:35This is somebody who has clarity.
08:37This is somebody who perhaps has a perspective on what she would like her life to look like.
08:43Why is that seen as her being needy, clingy, too much?
08:47These are often the phrases we, and words we use around women, right?
08:51Yeah, I think, I mean, with women particularly, I think you're like damned if you do, you're
08:55damned if you don't.
08:55Like you're supposed to only want a long-term monogamous relationship that leads to marriage.
09:01And you're supposed to, you know, want to, what if you actually just want lots of sex?
09:06Yes.
09:06You know, but good girls aren't supposed to want that.
09:08So you're too, too shallant.
09:11Yes.
09:11If you want the long-term relationship and commitment and monogamy, and you're like not
09:15respectable if that's what you don't want.
09:17So what are you supposed to want, right?
09:19Oh my gosh.
09:20Each time I hear that, it makes me so angry, right?
09:23That women are not allowed to have desire.
09:27That it's so, it's morally policed, right?
09:30She's considered loose.
09:32It still comes up in sessions.
09:33And it blows my mind.
09:35I'm like, but aap bi toh thay vahan peh.
09:37Right?
09:38Why is she being the one who's judged?
09:40It's absurd.
09:41But I actually think patriarchy is as damaging to men and to the expectations women are taught
09:46they should have from a man.
09:48Like, I find it so appalling that a woman who's really successful in her career, who
09:54doesn't want marriage, or who's maybe even married a man who makes less money than her.
09:58Her family will treat the fact that her husband is richer than her as a greater source of shame
10:04than pride in her career as a source of joy.
10:07Yeah.
10:07You know?
10:08Of course.
10:08Which is insane.
10:09And I think these ideas that men should drive their worth from, you know, how much property
10:14or assets or money or whatever that they have and how muscular they are and these weird
10:19ideas we have about masculinity.
10:21I think just as the ideas around what it means to be a good woman impact women.
10:27I think the ideas of what it means to be a good man impact men and women's expectations
10:31of men.
10:32And we got to dismantle all.
10:33We'd all be better off if we dismantle all of it.
10:36What if I'm becoming increasingly enamored with the idea that, like, maybe what I need
10:41is actually, like, a man who looks after the house?
10:43Yes.
10:44I would love a man who's nurturing and tender and a good housekeeper and, like, you know,
10:50looks after my needs in a non-monetary way because my life is so busy on the work front.
10:56Right.
10:57But that would mean dismantling so much of generational conditioning, right?
11:01Exactly.
11:02And this is the other thing that I also see, you know, where men are concerned, very often
11:07I hear men come into session and say, I don't feel emotionally safe, but sex is expected
11:13of me.
11:13So I should be, like, coked up on it, right?
11:16That's not true.
11:17Exactly.
11:18I mean, we must allow everyone permission to be who they are instead of who they're expected
11:23to be.
11:24Absolutely.
11:24Yeah.
11:25I completely agree with that.
11:27Yeah.
11:27And do you think that early on in relationships, couples might also be a little bit sort of
11:35brain-addled by the, you know, the butterflies of a courtship phase?
11:39Like, I feel my decision-making has definitely been clouded by, like, love goggles, orgasm goggles.
11:45You just become blind to some glaringly obvious incompatibilities because there's just so much
11:51chemistry or you just have, like, such, you know, such a physical intensity or just, like,
11:58your judgment is clouded, you know?
12:01For sure.
12:01I've been there all my days, I think.
12:05Chemistry, and this is where you separate chemistry from compatibility, right?
12:09Chemistry is wonderful.
12:10You can't keep your hands off the other.
12:12But you can't build a relationship on just chemistry, right?
12:17You need compatibility.
12:18And chemistry can fade.
12:20If the person doesn't treat you well, they're not kind, they're not respectful, chemistry
12:25is the first thing that goes out of the window, right?
12:29This, have a measured perspective on it, right?
12:33When you look at compatibility, now, that is something, you have to have a starting point
12:38to find a good enough partner.
12:40And I think the current dating apps, I don't know how many people here are on dating apps.
12:46How many people are on dating apps?
12:49I'm so curious to know how that's working out.
12:54But I think that they're worrisome because it gives you the illusion of choice, right?
13:00And we're not putting enough effort.
13:02It's actually a distractor because we think, yeah, I don't like the way he chews.
13:07So I'm going to swap and find somebody else, right?
13:11This compatibility, a great starting point is to admire this person, right?
13:18I'm not talking about all, but admiration is about their qualities.
13:22Can I respect this person?
13:24Can I, do I feel safe?
13:26Can I trust them?
13:27Those you build, those are the building blocks.
13:30When you have that as the architecture, that's a solid foundation.
13:35How do we fight, right?
13:38How is conflict resolved?
13:39When I'm angry, how do I express myself?
13:43Am I careful about my partner?
13:45Am I quick to apologize maybe, even if I shut my mouth off?
13:48All of that tells me.
13:50So I'm not dismissing chemistry.
13:52I think chemistry is wonderful.
13:54Sex is wonderful.
13:55If you have that kind of compatibility there, but it can't be the only thing.
14:01It's not strong enough to build a foundation for a relationship.
14:05Do you think compatibility alone is enough?
14:07Because I don't.
14:08No, I think you have to have both.
14:12I don't disagree with that.
14:13But, you know, and this is something I wonder about.
14:16This is not something that I perhaps have a perfect answer to yet.
14:20But what happens when you have great chemistry, great sexual compatibility, but you have no
14:28understanding, no emotional safety?
14:30You need a bit of both, right?
14:32And I also do see very often that when you really like somebody and you admire who they
14:37are, sexual chemistry is actually something you can also, sexual compatibility is something
14:44you can build on.
14:45Maybe not the chemistry, but compatibility is something you can build on.
14:48When you feel emotionally safe to communicate what you like, what, you know, your vulnerabilities,
14:54your aging body, you know, the boobs are sagging, balls are dropping, you know, all of that,
14:59right?
14:59I've got a little bit of a punch.
15:01Hormones are going crazy.
15:03Can I be vulnerable with my partner to share that?
15:05Is there somebody I can build that with?
15:08I think you can build sexual compatibility over time.
15:12Yeah.
15:12And to me, when I talk about sexual compatibility, I don't think it has anything to do with how
15:16someone looks.
15:16You know, it's the, it's an energy.
15:19It's like a thing, either it's there, it's not there.
15:22And like, if it's there, it's very powerful.
15:25And it has to do with an emotional, for me, it's a prerequisite is feeling safe.
15:30Is it enough?
15:31Do you feel like it's enough to build a...
15:33No, I don't think it's enough.
15:34But I think that, I think the practical, like when, you know, as a lonely girl who thinks like
15:41there's no man out there who's going to meet her high standards.
15:44And then you're like thinking, okay, what am I comfortable, like taking off my list or
15:50whatever.
15:50And let's be practical about this.
15:52So do I admire this person?
15:53Do I respect them?
15:54Can we live together?
15:55Do we like the same things?
15:56And then you, you know, you find a great roommate, but are you having enough orgasms?
16:03For me, like that question has kept me up at night.
16:05So I think like, I want both.
16:08I want both.
16:09And it shouldn't be impossible to find both.
16:11And I actually think a willingness between two people to recognize that both things matter
16:17and that we can actually work on both things can, can take you a long way.
16:23I love that word willingness.
16:24The willingness to it.
16:25There has to be a willingness.
16:27On that note, let's play red flag, green flag, or it depends.
16:31We're going to throw some scenarios out there.
16:33And first we let the audience raise what they think it to be.
16:37And then you chime in.
16:39It depends.
16:40You can put up both the flags.
16:41Okay.
16:42A couple that never argues.
16:49Hell yes.
16:50That is a red flag, right?
16:52Because somebody is not saying what they mean and they're keeping the peace.
16:56And that is worrisome.
16:57So for sure.
16:59They tell you to stop overreacting when you call them out on something.
17:07Well done.
17:08Yes, of course.
17:10No, you need somebody who understands that, who hears you.
17:14They don't have to agree with you, but they have to make room.
17:18They have a close friendship with an ex.
17:26Oh, interesting.
17:31This is where I would say it depends.
17:33It depends on the conversation you've had early on.
17:36And not just early on, continually, right?
17:39When something bothers you and you feel like your partner's maybe uncomfortably close with
17:43their ex, you have to make room to talk about it.
17:46And your partner has to make room for that.
17:48It can't just be a shutdown and say, oh, too bad.
17:50That's my ex.
17:51No, this is your current relationship.
17:53And it's only respectful that you understand what makes your partner uncomfortable, right?
17:57So I would say it depends.
18:02The arree is their voice, but apologize afterwards.
18:17If they do it repetitively, that tells me there's no reflection, right?
18:22You're doing nothing to change that habit if it bothers your partner.
18:26One.
18:26Two, raising your voice.
18:27What does that mean?
18:28Does it make you feel unsafe?
18:31Is there a lot of aggression in the room?
18:34That's threatening your safety?
18:37That's a no-go, right?
18:39That is not just a rough fight.
18:42If you're feeling unsafe, please reach out to somebody who can help you through that.
18:49They expect you to know what they're upset about without telling you.
18:56I love this audience.
19:00Requires no work.
19:02All been to therapy.
19:04Yes.
19:06Oh, absolutely.
19:08I mean, who's a psychic?
19:10How are you supposed to know?
19:11Please communicate.
19:12It's ridiculous, the notion that they should know.
19:15And this is the trope, the romantic trope of relationships, right?
19:19If I found my person, I have to communicate nothing.
19:22They will just know me.
19:23Rubbish.
19:25Please communicate.
19:26Siblings who've grown up in the same house are so different.
19:30And you expect someone who's raised differently to know something about you that you yourself sometimes don't know.
19:36That's a bit much.
19:39They want access to your phone password.
19:47Not just because their phone died, okay?
19:54Well, it depends on how far along the relationship this is.
19:59What is the rules of transparency that you have in your relationship?
20:05Is it a demand?
20:06Is it a request?
20:07And also, where is it coming from?
20:10Is there doubt?
20:13Or is this just the rules of your relationship?
20:16So I wouldn't say it's a blanket yes or no.
20:22All righty.
20:22Last one.
20:23They admit when they're wrong.
20:30And yes, we love that, right?
20:32Accountability is great.
20:35Absolutely.
20:35But then what do they do about it?
20:37Always.
20:38I mean, don't do it.
20:39And then?
20:40Don't weaponize your incompetence.
20:42Ah.
20:43I love that.
20:44Yes.
20:45All right.
20:46All right.
20:46Okay.
20:47On that note, let's talk about how to have a good fight.
20:51Some of this stuff came up even in the red flag, green flag questions.
20:54For me, a raised voice is, like, deeply disconcerting.
20:58Or any, like, I hate being on the receiving end of anger of any kind.
21:02And I think I suppressed my own anger a long time.
21:05So much so that in my 20s, I think, I don't get angry.
21:08I'm just the perfect woman who's happy all the time.
21:11I just cry when I'm disappointed.
21:15And I feel like I've really started to sit with my rage.
21:17Like, I've invited it to dinner to sit with me because it's telling me something.
21:21Yes.
21:21But I think, on the other hand, rage is one of the only emotions men are socialized to be, to
21:27think of as acceptable to express publicly.
21:30So, like, you could be driving and some poor old lady in a car who overtook you or didn't do
21:35whatever is, like, this, you know, starts swearing out of the window.
21:38Or you, I don't know, it's a pretty typical anger management issue where everyone knows someone.
21:45We all have that uncle who, like, shout at the waiter or shout at the check-in staff at the
21:49airport.
21:50For me, that's, like, deeply troubling.
21:52It's just really grating to hear, to witness anger of that kind where there's no good reason.
21:58Does gender impact how we, how easily we're able to express anger?
22:02And when is anger constructive?
22:03When is it not quite the right emotion?
22:07Okay.
22:08One, I'm going to make a distinction between anger and rage, right?
22:12So, rage, to me, is uncontrolled, right?
22:17Anger is an expression of hurt, wounding, and deep disappointment.
22:23Now, how I express my anger?
22:25I'm allowed to be angry, but how I express it is on me, right?
22:29So, and to think of relationships, every relationship, parent, child, lovers, siblings, you're going to have fights.
22:38You're going to have rupture.
22:39But how do you repair, how quickly, how easily, right?
22:43What is the languaging around it?
22:45That is key.
22:48So, to me, it's possible to have a good fight.
22:51You have to know what the architecture of a good fight is.
22:56But rage is always worrying, right?
22:58Because rage threatens safety in the room.
23:01When I think about it, for instance, and like you, I think I've thought of myself as someone who doesn't
23:07get angry.
23:08And what I realized was that I just didn't, I didn't have an opportunity to get angry.
23:14I felt like there was no room for it.
23:16I had to constantly accommodate for the other person.
23:21And I diminished myself in the relationship.
23:23I took myself out of the equation.
23:25And it was about appeasing the other person, right?
23:28What one has learned over time, and this is a lot of the work that I do with clients, and
23:33gender does play a role here.
23:35I think the number of women that I see that don't express anger, they accommodate.
23:40Adjust to the very popular trope.
23:44He gets angry.
23:45You let it be.
23:46Or, you know, she can be a bit irritable.
23:49You understand.
23:51Now, someone is constantly understanding.
23:54And this happens.
23:55That's okay.
23:56That's how relationships move on and they continue.
23:58But if you're constantly brushing things under the rug, you have this massive mountain.
24:04You're going to trip over it and there's going to be dust flying everywhere one day, right?
24:07So, to me, it's how do we move from anger, the expression of anger, to having a good fight, right?
24:16And that is a conversation that I think most couples struggle with.
24:20I think everybody does, actually.
24:22So, what is the architecture of a good fight, then?
24:29Respect, kindness, and a very good apology and accountability, right?
24:35So, if you think of it as an I statement, right?
24:38I'm allowed to be angry.
24:40I'm hurt by something you've done.
24:42I'm deeply disturbed by it.
24:45And I want you to make room for it.
24:47So, a good fight, if you and I were in a relationship and I did something to hurt you,
24:54if you're going to lash out at me, you lose me.
24:57Because I'm going to get defensive and I'm going to be critical
25:00and I'm going to turn around and say,
25:01but what about the time that you did this?
25:04Right?
25:04But the moment you look at me and you say,
25:08you know, Anne, this didn't work for me.
25:11Did you mean to say that because I felt belittled or condescended
25:15or spoken down to or ignored?
25:19What that does is two things.
25:20It gives me benefit of doubt because you didn't come from assumption.
25:24And two, I have to take a pause to say,
25:27shoot, maybe I did.
25:31Maybe I used you as collateral in that moment.
25:34Maybe I was in a crowd and I was awkward and I made a joke that I wasn't,
25:38that was not cool.
25:40Right?
25:40And I have to take that moment to step back and say, I'm really sorry.
25:44And this, so a good fight is also about a good apology, right?
25:48And a good apology requires me to make an I statement.
25:52It can't require a but.
25:54It's like, I'm sorry, but you know, that doesn't work.
25:57Right?
25:58I'm really sorry.
25:59I did that.
26:00In that moment, I only thought of myself and I didn't think of you.
26:04And for that, I'm really sorry, right?
26:08It's an intentional, very specific apology.
26:11And that's very healing because what it does is that in that moment,
26:15I chose you over me.
26:18And that's very powerful.
26:21And then your behavior has to also indicate that that apology was sincere.
26:26Correct?
26:26Always.
26:27And we also put that in then, right?
26:29And I love, I love that you said that because then what are we going to do
26:32the next time this happens, right?
26:34You know, I'm going to watch out.
26:36The next time it happens, just tell me on the spot.
26:40I'll make room for it.
26:43But the apology still stands.
26:46I think that for so many people, even though your partner or spouse or boyfriend,
26:51girlfriend, whatever, a non-binary friend, they're supposed to be like this,
26:55you know, the closest person to you in your life or whatever.
27:00But conflict can feel unsafe.
27:02Like, we don't get these templates for safe conflict.
27:05And conflict can feel so unsafe where it almost seems like the lesser evil is to just
27:12tolerate because I'm attached to this person.
27:14I don't, you know.
27:15And I wonder how more couples can get good at having good faith and safe.
27:21Like, there's a sense of safety and good faith about even your worst fight where you're,
27:26you can take for granted that this is not about who wins.
27:29And this is not about being right.
27:31And neither of us are going to be, you never have to worry about your physical safety.
27:35Or, you know, you're not going to be manipulated.
27:37Like, there's some bad faith practices that we will never, we are just not going to go there.
27:41Yeah.
27:42Now, in a fight, you can either win it or solve it, right?
27:47And Yalom, this amazing psychotherapist, has this saying that you strike when the iron is cold.
27:52And I use that a lot in my therapy sessions because it's about setting up rules and guidelines when things
27:58are great.
28:00When we fight, what should it look like, right?
28:03What are some no-go zones?
28:05What are some things we will not do?
28:06How will we regulate our emotion when things get heated up?
28:09And this is also about, you'll notice, very often in couples, there'll be one person who wants to have the
28:14conversation then and there.
28:15And there's one person who's like, I need to get out right now.
28:18I need a 20-minute break.
28:21How do you accommodate for both?
28:23How do you make sense of what their psychological need is at that time?
28:28And that conversation has to happen when things are not heated up.
28:31So you have a safety net.
28:34You know what the boundary is.
28:35You have a playing ground, right?
28:37And it's also very helpful to understand if your partner is somebody who needs to leave the room and take
28:43a breather.
28:44Why is that?
28:45It's because the nervous system is so flooded.
28:48It can seem like a very selfish, uncaring act in that moment, but it's not.
28:54It's them trying to regulate themselves, but they have to come back in 20 minutes.
28:58That promise has to be met.
29:00And at the same time, you have to understand that the person who wants to have the conversation then and
29:05there, what is that about?
29:06And in both cases, by the way, very often it comes from the homes that we grew up in.
29:13How did we see fights, right?
29:15Was someone slamming doors or was there a lot of silence?
29:18What feels threatening?
29:20What feels safe?
29:21And very few of us have grown up seeing a beautiful model of conflict.
29:26If not, we're stumbling our way through.
29:28We're all flawed.
29:29We're imperfect.
29:32But when you understand some of these architectures, you understand and you have these conversations early on.
29:38Do not have any of these conversations in the middle of a fight.
29:40It's not going to work, right?
29:43Have it as a point of curiosity very early on.
29:46And I think, and continually, because you're changing as well.
29:49Your relationship in the first year to the fifth year to the tenth year is going to look very different.
29:54What is important in the first year is not going to be important in the tenth year.
29:58So keeping that in mind is key.
30:01And, you know, we, in the beginning, hinted at the fact that sometimes, let's say couples therapy or some sort
30:09of intervention, the point of it isn't always to save the relationship.
30:14So how do couples together recognize when something might just be a rough phase or, you know, something that's resolvable
30:24and when, in fact, maybe it is better to end the relationship?
30:30You know, when I think of relationships, I think of them as, think of a lot, hanging up a large
30:37screen TV, right?
30:39If you're the only one holding it up, it's going to fall flat.
30:42It's not going to work, right?
30:44And it does happen that at different points in your relationship, one person will do more of the emotional and
30:51physical labor.
30:52Things change, right?
30:53You have children, you have aging parents, you have job losses, promotions, changing finances.
31:02In the rough patch, you still have goodwill.
31:04You're still on the same team, right?
31:08And you understand that over time, that the labor evens out.
31:14Even if it's not 50-50 at all points in time, it is not going to be 50-50 at
31:17all points in time.
31:19So you have to think of it as, is it a season?
31:24Is it the climate?
31:26Right?
31:26What is it?
31:27And can you identify maybe a situational trigger?
31:30Maybe it's a rough few months triggered by something very specific.
31:33But when it's added on, you'll feel this growing resentment, right?
31:38Think of relationships as, you know, no relationship ends suddenly.
31:43It's gradual.
31:45Right?
31:45And then suddenly the penny drops over something so irrelevant.
31:51But it's been coming for a long time.
31:53So for me, a good measure is, are you on the same team?
31:58So I can be really annoyed at my partner.
32:01They're f***ing me off.
32:02But when I step out, I'm like, oh, he likes this donut.
32:05I'm going to bring it back.
32:07You were able to hold both.
32:10What are, in your practice, what have been some of the most common, sort of irreconcilable differences that couples come
32:19in with where, you know, the better option is to just end the relationship?
32:27It's long-term resentment where one or both are unwilling to take accountability.
32:35So you can be, the other person may be responsible for 80% of the issues in the relationship, but
32:42you have to take responsibility for your 20%, right?
32:46And when you're unwilling to do that, it's always very tricky.
32:51I think also chronic cheating.
32:56That's a really tough one.
33:00Three is when you feel betrayed, not just from cheating, but also from family dynamics.
33:06When you feel abandoned in the relationship, that's a hard one.
33:11You can work through it, but then it becomes another languaging in the relationship.
33:16The moment I seek contempt in the way you speak to your partner, so there's mockery and there's sarcasm, or
33:23there's indifference.
33:24Sometimes I'd rather take a couple that's fighting and shouting.
33:28It tells me they still have something to fight about and care about, right?
33:31And fights are so critical in my relationship.
33:33It redefines the rules.
33:34But when one person comes in and they're checked out, that's always worrying.
33:39There's no coming back from that.
33:43Okay, so you mentioned a few of the reasons for some of the resentment that can build and then feel
33:48difficult to see any path forward from.
33:52And I think that we touched upon, but didn't go head on with these topics of sex, money, betrayal.
34:00Let's sort of prod there a bit more.
34:04I think sexual dissatisfaction or just being on a different page than your partner in terms of whether it's the
34:11frequency or the nature of the sex you're having,
34:15or just so many married couples just don't have any sex.
34:19And it can be important to different people to different degrees.
34:24What's been your experience in terms of like, are people able to talk about sex?
34:29In my DMs, it seems like even when people are having sex, they find it really difficult to talk about
34:34it,
34:34especially honestly when there's a problem.
34:37So, I think we don't have the vocabulary.
34:40In India, as South Asians particularly, right, we do not have the languaging around sex and sexuality.
34:48How can I communicate that to my partner when I don't have it for myself?
34:52And then it comes loaded with shame, fear, and guilt.
34:56Oh my God, it's a complete kryptonite for desire.
35:01Because if I'm not the good girl, how do I ask for sex?
35:05So difficult.
35:06I have a kink.
35:07I have a fetish.
35:09I want to fantasize.
35:12I want to try a different position.
35:14So, so difficult to have any of those conversations, right?
35:19So, to me, I think if we could build vocabulary around it, and that is a big part of the
35:25work that we do in therapy,
35:28is to understand where the couple is at.
35:31Do they understand desire for themselves?
35:34And sometimes I just split the couple up to have this conversation because they're uncomfortable and awkward about it.
35:42But I'm always very hopeful when I see a couple laugh, right?
35:46And there's levity and mirth, and they're sort of fumbling their way through this, and they're figuring it out.
35:51I think that's always promising.
35:53But the moment I see shaming, where you look at the other person's libido, high, low, wherever it might be,
36:04and you make a judgment about it, immediately it's unsafe.
36:08So, so much of the work happens separately.
36:12So much of the vocabulary building happens separately.
36:15I wish there was, you do so much of the work around it, which I love, which is to build
36:20the vocabulary around it.
36:21We don't have it.
36:23So, how can I communicate something that I don't have in my toolkit?
36:28And what about money?
36:30I want to get to these audience questions in the bowl ASAP.
36:32But, okay, quickly, let's talk also about how people's expectations around shared finances can sometimes also just be something you
36:41address too late.
36:43Yes.
36:45Money is not just about money.
36:46Money is symbolic about so many things.
36:48The home that you grew up in.
36:49How is money spoken about?
36:50How was it saved?
36:52Equal is not always fair, right?
36:55How are you speeding it up?
36:56Is it proportional to your salaries?
36:58Whose labor?
36:59Invisible labor?
37:00So, all of those things come into consideration.
37:04Job loss, promotions, pay hike.
37:07You have to keep having these conversations.
37:10But, you know, we've romanticized money as well, right?
37:14It's almost icky.
37:15It's almost like a little gross to talk about money.
37:18It's not.
37:19Have these practical conversations.
37:21And this is the thing.
37:22I think when I look at dating in South Asia, we've just barely understood dating.
37:28We went out loud, right?
37:29Right.
37:29Which was set up for us.
37:31Exactly.
37:31And we got these dating apps.
37:33So, to me, the middle ground is great.
37:36Use all the arranged marriage questions.
37:39Family, finances, job, perspectives.
37:42And take the romance of dating.
37:44But don't only date your same caste, same religion.
37:46Yeah.
37:47Come on, man.
37:48Reject all of that.
37:48Just ask the question.
37:51Take the curiosity and curiosity is such a great space.
37:55You have, and using curiosity continuously.
37:57And I see this in long-term relationships.
37:59You stop being curious about your partner.
38:01You have an assumption about who they were 10 years ago.
38:04They've changed.
38:05You've changed.
38:06And you've made no accommodation.
38:08You've not updated the, you know, iOS.
38:11You're working with an old iOS.
38:13It doesn't work.
38:14Alrighty.
38:15Thank you, Anne.
38:15I could keep going.
38:16But I do want to also give audience questions a chance.
38:19Because everyone had the opportunity to get a question answered by a renowned couples therapist.
38:25So, we'll take some from the bowl to start with.
38:27But, you know, think of some questions.
38:29If you didn't put yours in the bowl.
38:30And maybe a few lucky in-person questioners will be asked questions to you.
38:36Some kids, a question.
38:37You want to?
38:38Okay.
38:38You want to take a question instead?
38:39How much emotional awareness in relationships is too much?
38:45I'll give you a background.
38:47Yeah.
38:48Because this current session, we have seen a lot of well-informed questions which tells us that people have been
38:54learning a lot about mental health.
38:56And that kind of also is what's happening in my life.
39:02And lately, it feels like I'm diagnosing my relationship constantly.
39:06And I just want to know how much awareness is too much awareness.
39:10Thank you for that question.
39:11It's actually, yeah.
39:13There is such a thing as too much awareness.
39:16And I am guilty of that as well.
39:19Because sometimes what happens is when we bring everything under the microscope, we stop enjoying the relationship.
39:27We stop living it, right?
39:28We're all a bit like we're mad monkeys, right?
39:32And the moment I start labeling, I throw out curiosity.
39:38And curiosity is key.
39:40Why did my partner do what they did?
39:43And can I just take their answer at face value?
39:46And I don't have to solve every fight.
39:48Not every fight has to be an I statement.
39:51I understand.
39:52And the very classical therapeutic trope, you know, I'm mocking it right now.
39:56But you know what I mean, right?
39:58It's not helpful.
39:59Because sometimes you can be deeply annoyed at your partner and be like, you are a s*** person right now.
40:05And I don't really like you right now.
40:07Do I love you broadly?
40:09Not right now either.
40:11It's okay, right?
40:13So what we make room is for the flaws.
40:16Because if I'm trying to bring everything under the microscope, if we bring ourselves under the microscope, oh my God,
40:22I don't want to be under one.
40:24Gosh, you're going to see all my flaws.
40:27And that's, I don't want that.
40:29I would like a little bit of leeway and I want someone to cut me some slack.
40:35So I feel like it, it takes the joy out of sometimes being irrational.
40:40Now, moving on to another question real quick from the bowl.
40:44Um, why is emotional intimacy often harder to navigate than physical intimacy?
40:53Because it requires vulnerability.
40:55You have to be emotionally naked in front of the other person.
41:00You have to be seen as wanting and having needs.
41:05And you have to show your chaos and your mess.
41:09That's terrifying.
41:11You're not perfect.
41:12We're all flawed.
41:13We're all a bit crazy.
41:16And vulnerability, vulnerability requires us to show up with all of that self, right?
41:21And that's much tougher.
41:23Because I will have to share my, my fear, my wounding.
41:29And my deep desire.
41:30And the fact that I want to be seen.
41:32And I want to be seen in a very specific way.
41:35I can tear up thinking about it, right?
41:38That is, oh my gosh, I quake in my shoes even after all these years of the thought of it.
41:42To be truly seen.
41:43Yes.
41:44To be seen once and all.
41:45Yeah.
41:46But what, but isn't it so joyful also when you feel truly seen?
41:49Absolutely.
41:49Like that is my favorite feeling in the world.
41:50There's nothing more powerful.
41:51I think friendships actually are a great parameter.
41:56Think of your oldest friend.
41:57Think of your dearest and safest space, right?
42:01That is a good rule to have.
42:03If your potential partner has the capacity to make you feel like that, this is a person.
42:09That's a good enough person to start building something with.
42:11Okay.
42:11One more question from the bowl.
42:12Then we take a few more questions.
42:14I wish I could do all of the questions.
42:15But okay.
42:16Is it normal for live-in partners to lose sexual desire for each other?
42:20Well, yes, not just live-in, any kind of long-term relationship, I would assume.
42:29Because desire needs mystery.
42:31And it's counterintuitive, right?
42:33That the more I know somebody, the less mysterious they are.
42:42But this is again where compatibility comes in, right?
42:45If there's a safe space to have conversation and you know what you want
42:49and your desires have changed and you're trying to approach things with curiosity
42:53because there are so many things about your partner you may not know.
42:56Why won't you approach something?
42:58You've seen something.
42:59You want to check someone out together.
43:00You want to watch porn together.
43:03Do you feel safe enough to talk about it?
43:06So one, to answer the first part, yes, it's very normal.
43:10Every relationship waxes and wanes where desire is concerned.
43:13But that is not to say that it can't be spruced back up.
43:17It just looks different.
43:19And also sometimes the more safe you feel, desire can increase.
43:24Because you have, this is a great safety net, right?
43:27The boundary walls are so beautifully built that you can experiment.
43:31You can do things together.
43:32I think also like just putting in an effort.
43:34Sometimes you feel so safe that you stop putting in an effort.
43:36That's happened to me.
43:37I just would never dress up anymore.
43:39I just would be in my sweatpants because it's so comfy.
43:41But it is nice to dress up or go on a date or go on a holiday
43:44or do something new together.
43:46And I think that no matter how long you've been together,
43:48like scheduling this stuff in, schedule a date night, schedule sex.
43:52And also, continually, you have to be able to turn yourself on.
43:56And I don't mean sexually, even physically, right?
43:59When you put lipstick or you put perfume or you put on a really nice shirt,
44:03do you feel desirous to yourself?
44:05Because if you don't, it's going to be much harder to expect
44:09that your partner is going to feel a way about you.
44:12Or that you're going to be like in the mood.
44:14Yes, at all, right?
44:17Okay, questions from the audience.
44:19I see a whole bunch of hands.
44:22So my question is, in arranged marriage setup,
44:25you know, it's like, so we see communities which are very orthodox
44:30and it's very difficult to get out of a marriage,
44:33which is very different from separating from a partner in a relationship.
44:37So what is your opinion about sexual incompatibility
44:42between two people who are married to take divorce?
44:46Is this a valid ground?
44:48Because our legal system definitely doesn't allow that.
44:50I mean, amongst many things, which can, you know,
44:55grounds for which one can file a divorce, seek divorce,
44:58this isn't one of them.
45:00What is your opinion about that?
45:02So is exiting a marriage, you know, valid
45:07if you're not sexually compatible with your married partner?
45:12Do you want to take that?
45:13I think that the legal system does recognize divorce by mutual consent.
45:17And so if, as long as you can get your partner to agree,
45:22I think that sexual compatibility,
45:25if there's no effort being made from the other side
45:27to acknowledge or address whatever issue you may have,
45:33then, I mean, I'm all for amicable divorces.
45:35I don't think divorces have to be acrimonious or a sign of failure.
45:40Like it's unfortunate that society makes it seem that way,
45:42but what if, and especially in arranged marriage circumstances
45:45where you didn't even choose,
45:46like you've discovered yourselves after committing
45:48that you're going to spend your whole life together,
45:50shouldn't we get that chance?
45:51Like, hey, you know, we tried, but it didn't work.
45:55But I mean, I'm not the therapist.
45:57So what would you say?
45:59My opinion would be that if there is space for it
46:03and that is the grounds for the relationship collapsing
46:06for that couple, my opinion would be, please go ahead.
46:10If you're so deeply unhappy and that feels irreconcilable,
46:14then yes, right?
46:18But very often in arranged marriages in this country
46:21or in South Asia, you don't get that opportunity.
46:24So my personal opinion is different, right?
46:27What is possible?
46:29That's true.
46:30It doesn't happen.
46:31Sometimes divorce is not an option for people.
46:34I mean, or what are the, I think it's always an option,
46:36but you might not have financial security anymore,
46:39or you might disappoint your parents and in-laws so irrevocably
46:43that you lose your inheritance.
46:44Or can you deal with those consequences?
46:46And if not, I guess, what's the best you can do?
46:48Talk about it.
46:50Explore your own pleasure yourself.
46:52Go to a therapist.
46:53Go to a therapist.
46:55All of those things, right?
46:57If you can find, again, vocabulary and languaging,
47:00if there is space.
47:01It's not just about sexual compatibility.
47:03Is there no communication around it?
47:05Is the other person shutting down?
47:06Are they defensive?
47:08I mean, unfortunately, a lot of people are doomed to,
47:12not a lot, I would not want to imagine a lot,
47:15but many people are doomed to unhappy, sexless marriages.
47:20It is a thing.
47:22It's the truth.
47:24There is no going around it.
47:26Yeah, I wish that families would also put less pressure on people,
47:30both to get married and to stay married,
47:31because you shouldn't have to choose between your parents' love
47:34and your happiness.
47:35And they're dismissive, because they're like,
47:36this is what happens.
47:38Sex is not important, right?
47:40Or even if there's violence,
47:42how often I hear somebody say,
47:45you know, if we were to pick every fight
47:48and, you know, talk about it,
47:50then no marriage would last.
47:53But just because your parents and your grandparents did it
47:55doesn't mean you have to put up with it.
47:57And I think we should break cycles.
47:59Like, you've got to break cycles.
48:00Just because your parents said something
48:01doesn't mean you've got to do it.
48:02So, newsflash, and it's painful.
48:04But like, if you, you know, if you can be that change,
48:07your kid will never have to worry about that same situation.
48:10It's really powerful to break a cycle.
48:12I want to, sorry to be rushing,
48:13but I want to get as many questions in as we can.
48:15Hi.
48:16So, I'll keep it short.
48:18We talked about rage and anger.
48:21I want to know a little bit about,
48:24have you been seeing an increase in the amount of angry women?
48:28And the reason I ask that is because,
48:30of course, we've tackled rage,
48:31and we talked about the patriarchal side of it,
48:34and how men kind of feel that rage,
48:36and it can be unsafe.
48:37But there's also, I mean,
48:38as someone who feels this a lot myself,
48:40the kind of dissonance between coexisting with a man,
48:44and then at the same time,
48:46understanding what patriarchy is doing
48:47and dealing with it day in and day out,
48:49the anger that a woman can feel
48:52can also actually be quite potent.
48:53And I want to know how,
48:54have you been seeing an increase in this?
48:57And can it,
48:58and have you been seeing it affect relationships at any level?
49:02Yes, I see so many women expressing anger more freely
49:06in therapy in the last five years
49:08than I have in the decade before that, right?
49:13And in some ways,
49:14the pendulum has to swing the other way
49:16till we find middle ground.
49:18And unfortunately,
49:21society and men and partners
49:23will have to make space for it.
49:26I think it's best tolerated
49:28because very often when I do individual work,
49:32I invite the partner in,
49:34or a sibling in,
49:35or a parent in, right?
49:36For a couple of sessions,
49:37depending on how safe it feels for my client,
49:39to understand how they can make room
49:42and tolerate this anger.
49:45Do they understand what this anger is about?
49:46It's not necessarily about,
49:47because partners will come in and say,
49:49but I didn't do it.
49:50Why is she so angry with me?
49:51I'm not the one doing any of this.
49:54This, right?
49:56When you're,
49:57when someone steps out of the house,
49:59especially women in this country,
50:00and they go out
50:02and someone has brushed past against them,
50:04they've made a lewd comment,
50:06they've groped them,
50:07or they've just looked at them,
50:09you know,
50:10this,
50:10and let's make them uncomfortable.
50:12Somewhere,
50:13it sinks in your body,
50:13it makes you really uncomfortable,
50:15and it boils up, right?
50:17And by the time you come back home,
50:19your partner can be like,
50:20hey,
50:21you didn't pay the bill for that?
50:22Why didn't you pay the bill?
50:23And you're seething,
50:25right?
50:26It happens.
50:29For me,
50:29a lot of the work has to do,
50:31and I invite all couples
50:33to have this conversation,
50:35have,
50:36have a check-in
50:38to ask your partner
50:40what's happening to their
50:42political,
50:43social landscape,
50:45and emotional landscape
50:46when,
50:47through the week,
50:49things have changed.
50:50The partner you said bye to in the morning
50:52is not the partner who's come back home,
50:54because so much has happened for them,
50:56right?
50:56So making room for that anger,
50:58because when you create
50:59the vessel for it,
51:02it's very healing for your partner.
51:05Right?
51:06And so,
51:07yeah,
51:07that's my answer for you.
51:09Thank you so much.
51:10You've been such a wonderful audience,
51:12and thank you for having this conversation
51:14with us today,
51:15and thank you for tuning in
51:17to Love Matters.
51:18Love Matters is produced
51:19by the Indian Express and DW,
51:21Germany's international broadcaster.
51:23We would love to hear from you.
51:25Do leave a comment,
51:25or you can write in to us
51:27at lovemattersatdw.com.
51:29I'm Liza Mangalas,
51:30and I believe love matters.
51:33applause
51:36começa