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Ground-breaking psychologist and former Kapuso actor Carl Lorenz Cervantes unpacks the Filipino belief in the paranormal.
Drawing on Sikolihiyang Pilipino, he explains how ‘kababalaghan’ bridges the visible and invisible worlds to help us understand ourselves, our ancestors, and our shared humanity or what we know as “kapwa.”
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Drawing on Sikolihiyang Pilipino, he explains how ‘kababalaghan’ bridges the visible and invisible worlds to help us understand ourselves, our ancestors, and our shared humanity or what we know as “kapwa.”
#GMANews #SerbisyongTotoo #BreakingNews
Watch the latest news stories from GMA Network's trusted news programs on the GMA Play app. Download now on Google Play and App Store. Also available on GMANetwork.com/GMAPlay and Android TVs!
GMA Network promotes healthy debate and conversation online. Any abusive language that does not facilitate productive discourse will be blocked from this post.
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NewsTranscript
00:08Have you ever wondered,
00:10why are there no other, let's say,
00:14genders or whatever it is?
00:15Why is it just a white lady?
00:17Does that represent our attitude towards women in the city?
00:26Did you ever consider entertainment as a career?
00:29I would say that what I'm doing right now is kind of also in its own way
00:34because I'm professing certain things in a very public platform.
00:38Expressing these things is, for me, a kind of entertainment.
00:43Pag nagmamalasakit at nagdadamayan yung mga tao,
00:45this is Filipino values at work.
00:47Kagandahang loob, pakikipagkapwa.
00:50We see this in everyday Filipinos.
00:53Magandang araw, Podmates!
00:54Si Howie Severino muli,
00:56kasamang isang guest na may makulay na life journey
00:59patungo sa kanyang akademikong career
01:01bilang eksperto sa Philippine psychology.
01:05Dahil sumikat muna ito sa showbiz
01:07bilang finalist sa Starstruck Season 6 noong 2015
01:11at naging artista at host pa
01:14sa mga programa namin sa GMA Network.
01:17Ngayon, mas kilala siya siguro sa kanyang research at sinusulat
01:22sa larangan ng Philippine psychology,
01:24mythology, folk beliefs,
01:26at marami pang topics na may kaugnayan sa ating kultura.
01:30Ladies and gentlemen, si Carl Lorenz Cervantes.
01:33Magandang araw sa'yo, Carl, and welcome to our show.
01:36Hello, hello.
01:36Salamat, Howie, sa pag-invite sa akin.
01:39Hello din sa lahat ng mga nakikinig at nanonood.
01:41Okay, Carl, you've written a groundbreaking book, Siko Diwa.
01:46I'll ask you more about this later.
01:48But also a lot of journal articles.
01:50You've interviewed a lot about your views on Philippine psychology.
01:55And you've been part of many public and deep conversations about the meaning of,
02:00you know, sapi and duende and kutob and so many other aspects of our culture.
02:06But I'm sure there have been some who have recently seen you on YouTube and your other platforms and said,
02:12so that's what happened to Carl Cervantes, yung patang artista.
02:17In a nutshell, how did that artista become Carl Cervantes, the professor of psychology and book author?
02:25Well, actually po, it really was just fun.
02:29You know, I was very young.
02:31I was pursuing something that genuinely I found to be joyful for me.
02:36Even in college, I was already doing mga theater, mga short films.
02:41I really loved, you know, performing.
02:45But since I was younger, I've always been a nerd.
02:48I've always loved reading books.
02:49And really, even in college, even though I had this enjoyment for entertainment,
02:55I still really wanted to become part of the academe, part of knowledge work.
03:00And here we are now.
03:02Yung dinaanan ko was very fascinating.
03:04It was very fun.
03:05And it taught me so much because being in the entertainment industry also helped me learn how to communicate these
03:11ideas better.
03:12So in other words, when you were a contestant in a starstruck competition that goes on for weeks,
03:19you were kind of living a double life.
03:22You were also studying psychology in college.
03:25At that time, it's not.
03:27Actually, I just graduated college in 2015.
03:31I worked a little bit.
03:32And then, you know, directly to showbiz.
03:34And then, you know, it was fun.
03:36Yeah, you said in the interview, you know, you met Father Jaime Bulatao, the Jesuit pioneer of Filipino psychology.
03:45In the same year, you were doing starstruck.
03:48So, siguro, that was before you entered the competition.
03:51Yes.
03:52I met him a few weeks before he passed, actually, in 2015.
03:56So, I was able to meet him because it was a bucket list item to meet the founder of the
04:00Department of Psychology at Ateneo.
04:03So, I met him and then, you know, a few weeks after he passed and then, you know, I graduated.
04:11So, you were doing entertainment right after, you know, having these serious conversations with, you know, this Jesuit pioneer and
04:20other academics, no?
04:21So, did you ever consider entertainment as a career?
04:24I would say that what I'm doing right now is kind of also, in its own way, because I'm professing
04:30certain things in a very public platform, expressing these things is, for me, a kind of entertainment.
04:37Because it is also very interesting to learn about these things, to talk about these things.
04:42I would say that's kind of, you know, within the wheelhouse dinaman of entertainment.
04:46Now, Halloween, which is originally a Western tradition.
04:52It's been adopted in the Philippines, especially by the middle class.
04:56Let's say that, you know, mostly, what they celebrate or commemorate it are middle class families.
05:04But it's now a big commercial event in malls and restaurants.
05:08We can see the decorations.
05:09Is it fair to say that, for Westerners, the ghosts of Halloween are obviously make-believe.
05:17But for many Filipinos, there are really multos.
05:21And we don't need a Halloween because every day we're surrounded by ghosts and other supernatural beings.
05:28It's very interesting because I know a lot of people who would say that,
05:33oh, hindi ako naniniwala sa ghosts, pero takot ako sa multo.
05:36It's very strange na, yes, I don't believe, pero why is that?
05:40I would say that, for a lot of people in more Western-minded places,
05:46the idea is, kung hindi mo ma-measure, hindi mo ma-capture, hindi mo ma-picturean ng isang bagay,
05:52dahi hindi siya totoo.
05:53So, eh, di maniniwala lang ako sa, why would I believe you?
05:55Eh, sabi-sabi mo lang yun. Kailangan makita ako.
05:57Eh, sa atin, ang dami nating experiences.
06:00Ang dami mga tao na kilala natin na nakakakita or whatever it is.
06:04So, I would say that, do we need a Halloween?
06:07It's a fun time.
06:09It's a good time to remember certain things, to remember our spiritual heritage.
06:13But also, I would say that more important during this season of Halloween is our value for people who have
06:20passed away.
06:21So, yung ano natin, yung remembrance natin for people who have passed, I think, is the more important aspect of
06:27why we continue to celebrate it.
06:29Inaalala natin.
06:30And this is something that also extends from our value of being family-oriented, yung kapwa, yung pakikipagkapwa natin.
06:38Kasi hanggang sa kabilang buhay, nakikipagkapwa pa rin tayo sa mga taong pumanaw na.
06:44So, this is how I see it also.
06:46So, it's not just costume parties.
06:47Even though that's a big part of it, but it's more, for me, it's more of the, you know, you
06:53visit the grave of someone who has passed, someone you love.
06:57You do it once a year.
06:59It's a remembrance.
07:01Okay, well, that's usually called All Souls Day, di ba?
07:05Right after Halloween, di ba?
07:07Right after Halloween.
07:08Parang, okay, it becomes a long weekend, no?
07:11So, pero siyempre, iba naman yung ancestors sa ghosts, no?
07:16Pero ayon sa research mo, mas naniniwala ba ang Pilipino sa supernatural, katulad ng mga multo, kaswang, duwende, et cetera,
07:25kaysa sa ibang lahi?
07:26Mm-hmm.
07:27I would love to see the statistics on this kasi parang kulang tayo sa ganung klaseng research when it comes
07:33to statistically proving na mas marami pala sa Pilipinas.
07:36But we could say, because we see a lot of the research from the West na ang liit lang, parang
07:42not very much.
07:43And there's a huge stigma for believing in supernatural and paranormal experiences in Western places na sasabihin nilang, ano ka
07:51ba, parang you're so gullible in believing in these things.
07:53Pero sa atin, it really is just part of the culture.
07:57So, maybe one of the reasons kung bakit hindi siya pinag-aralan na statistical ay dahil it's just an everyday
08:04thing.
08:04It's so common that it doesn't need to be proven.
08:07It's just something that is part of our meaning-making.
08:10Na pag may pumasok na butterfly sa room, sabihin na, oh si Lolo, oh si Lola, or whatever.
08:15So, it's part of our cultural frame, part of our cultural experience.
08:20But that, no?
08:21Madalas kong marinig yan.
08:24So, number one, it's a chance to remember somebody, right?
08:29Sabihin mo nga, Halloween and November 1 are dates to remember our ancestors, no?
08:36Pag may dumaan nga na butterfly, biglang, oh si ano yan, yung yung maong na uncle ko or whatever, no?
08:44And in a way, parang it gives comfort din eh, di ba?
08:49Yes, yes.
08:50Making that connection, remembering that, and then, you know, and then for like a few seconds, you kind of remember
08:55and maybe say a few things about that person, di ba?
08:59Parang siya nabuhay ulit.
09:01So, parang may ganong social, ano siya, a valley.
09:05A lot of the ghosts, if we look at it psychologically,
09:09yung experience natin of ghosts and haunted houses, even though they're scary,
09:13they also help us remember the history of places and people.
09:16So, you go to an old, tingnan po natin, lahat ng mga minumultong lugar sa Pilipinas,
09:21all of those are from history, di ba?
09:24Yung mga gera na nangyari sa lugar na yun, yung mga taong inalipusta sa lugar na yun,
09:28those are ways for us to remember what happened.
09:31So, kahit na natatakot tayo, because, you know, it's scary history, we have scary history,
09:35still it's important because it allows us to remember.
09:38So, it's memory, di ba?
09:40Could this be a generational thing?
09:43Because, halimbawa lang, of course, this is a very small sample size,
09:46but I was recently part of a family conversation where a much older member of the family,
09:52you know, swears there were duendes in her house, no?
09:57And she had to make this offering of a chicken so that it would not appear anymore, no?
10:04And of course, younger members of the family are, you know, respectful,
10:07but they're more skeptical, you know.
10:12But gano ba?
10:12I mean, this is usually, these beliefs are usually kind of the domain of older people,
10:18you know, people who've grown up with these things.
10:21But now, you know, the Gen Zs, the millennials, people your age, di ba?
10:24I mean, a lot of your friends believe in duendes in their houses,
10:30you know, even if their lolo or lola says they're there.
10:33So, you're asking me, is it just an older people thing about a previous generation?
10:37Some people also ask me, is it a rural thing versus wala naman dito sa city, ganyan.
10:42So, all these distinctions about where this is and where that is,
10:46I would say that there's folklore everywhere.
10:48There's these beliefs everywhere.
10:49And all of these things, regardless of the terms that we use,
10:53are really just expressing important things.
10:55So, for example, sa US, ang daming ngayon parang UFO, UFO, di ba?
11:01Ang daming mga kwento about extraterrestrials and all.
11:04Tapos mapapaisip ka, ba't walang UFO sa Pilipinas?
11:07Parang meron, ang daming mga nagkikwento na ganyan.
11:09Meron ako makilala na sabi niya na nakakita daw sila.
11:11But the folklore is not the same.
11:14Sa atin kasi inkanto.
11:15Inkanto yung nag-aabduct ng mga tao.
11:18Yun yung nangyayari.
11:19So, what do we use in terms of the language?
11:22So, if there is something in the city, we still do see it.
11:26We see the history of war times, the atrocities that happened there.
11:31That's part of the folklore.
11:32Yung mga multo, lahat ng mga school po na napuntahan ko,
11:35as a teacher and as a student, lahat may school ghost.
11:37There's always a campus ghost.
11:39Why?
11:40So, these are things that we can understand.
11:43In the city, we have white ladies.
11:45We have a lot of these things.
11:46Have you ever wondered, bakit nga ba lady lang yung white lady?
11:49Why are there no other, let's say, genders or whatever it is?
11:53Why is it just a white lady?
11:55Does that represent our attitude towards women in the city?
11:58So, these are things that reflect a deeper, I would say,
12:01a deeper psychological aspect to how we relate with environments
12:05and people and memory.
12:07So, yun po.
12:08Yeah, okay.
12:09So, we've all heard of, we've all heard anecdotes of people
12:14actually seeing a white lady or passing on a story
12:18that somebody saw a white lady.
12:21Especially there, sa New Manila, di ba, may balete drive diyan.
12:24Yes, yes.
12:25Yeah, and then, you know, and then balete trees themselves
12:27are supposedly kind of the home of all kinds of spirits, no?
12:33But you've said in an interview that you yourself have never seen
12:38anything that would qualify as a supernatural being.
12:43But that was several years ago.
12:45Since then ba, hindi ka pa rin nakakita?
12:49So, and a corollary to that is, why believe, well, do you believe in them?
12:56And if so, why believe in something you've never seen?
13:00Well, here's the thing.
13:02It doesn't matter whether or not I personally can say that it's true,
13:05but it's a very useful way of expressing myself.
13:09So, kahit na hindi ako naniniwala na meron duwende,
13:12if someone talks to me and tells me about their experience of a duwende,
13:16I try to understand it.
13:17Because it's just, alam naman sabihin ko,
13:19hindi totoo yan, walang nangyaring ganun.
13:21But I want to understand why was it brought up.
13:24Me personally, I believe that there are mysteries that I don't understand.
13:28And if we get the terms that we use,
13:31kung term natin ay duwende,
13:33obviously, I haven't seen na maliit na tao na nakasalakot.
13:36Obviously, I haven't seen that.
13:37Pero what does that represent?
13:39What does the duwende represent for the person?
13:41That's more important to me.
13:42Obviously, hindi pa ako nakakita ng aswang,
13:44ng lahati yung katawan na may bat wings and all.
13:47But what does the aswang represent?
13:49I would say it represents our fear of strangers,
13:52our fear of violence.
13:54There was this documentary, di ba yung aswang yung title,
13:57it was about crime and violence and all that.
13:59But so, what do these monsters and scary figures
14:03and even these positive mga diwata, fairies, all this,
14:07what do they represent?
14:09So, when I say na hindi pa ako nakakita,
14:12what I mean is,
14:12hindi ko pa nakita yung,
14:14alam mo yung mukhang sadako na nakatayo doon,
14:16or like, again, this duwende thing.
14:18But I have seen in the corner of my eye,
14:20mga shadows passing.
14:21I have felt yung kilabot in the back of my neck.
14:24Siyempre, hindi ko na sila napikturan.
14:26But, you know, sometimes I have these senses na,
14:29oh, there's something watching me,
14:31or there's this figure, and so on.
14:33So, it's hard to say,
14:34do I see them in the same way that I'm looking at you right now?
14:38I can see you,
14:39but maybe I see them in a different way.
14:41I perceive them.
14:42I feel them in a different way.
14:44So, yun po yung for me.
14:45Because when someone looks at the butterfly and says,
14:47si Lola yan,
14:48do they see their Lola,
14:50or do they see it in a different way?
14:52At yun po yung sinasabi ko rin,
14:53na parang maybe there's another way of seeing things.
14:58Okay.
14:59I have to share that kami,
15:02in the news media,
15:05among journalists,
15:06when we discuss topics and stories to do,
15:11there's this tension or debate about these topics,
15:15whether we should,
15:16you know,
15:16if there's a sighting or a story that we've heard,
15:20na may aswang or a haunted house,
15:22we're kind of hesitant to do that story.
15:25Kasi nga, yun nga,
15:28as non-fiction professionals,
15:30we want to see evidence and science and facts, no?
15:35But at the same time,
15:36you're saying,
15:36it's a valid part of our culture.
15:40But how should the news media treat,
15:45you know,
15:46when we get a tip that,
15:47you know,
15:47oh,
15:48there are ghosts that have been sighted in this house,
15:51and then tatakbo kami with a camera,
15:53and, you know,
15:54we won't be able to document it,
15:56because hindi sa amin nag-apir,
15:58right?
15:59Right, right.
15:59It's very difficult.
16:00And I understand where you're coming from
16:02when it comes to,
16:03ano ba yun,
16:04how do we do it scientifically?
16:05How do we gather evidence and all that?
16:07For me also,
16:08as I'm mostly,
16:10I'm mostly a non-fiction writer.
16:12So all my academic papers
16:14are really just research-based,
16:15empirical,
16:16and so on.
16:16So how do I talk about things
16:19that a lot of people say
16:21are just fiction?
16:23I would say that
16:24we have to question,
16:25what do we consider as evidence?
16:28And this is something
16:29that's very important
16:30because it's a political notion
16:31within science
16:33that the only thing
16:34that you consider evidence
16:35is what is measured
16:36in the Western way,
16:38in laboratories,
16:39or di ba,
16:40nakapture mo ng photo,
16:41and it's very materialistic.
16:43But in indigenous communities,
16:46evidence comes in so many other forms.
16:48They come in stories,
16:49narratives,
16:50performances,
16:51visions,
16:52and so on.
16:53So all these things,
16:54omens,
16:55these are also forms of evidence
16:56that you don't have to believe in.
16:58But they are a language
17:00that people use to communicate.
17:01So if someone tells me,
17:02if someone tells me
17:04na nakakita sila ng tiyanak,
17:07someone tells me something like this,
17:08and I say,
17:09wala naman talagang tiyanak,
17:10ang niwala ka pa dyan,
17:11I won't do that.
17:12But I would ask,
17:13I will ask non-judgmentally,
17:16bakit ka nakakita ng tiyanak?
17:18Ano yung nagpakita sayo
17:20na nagmukha ang tiyanak?
17:21I think that would be something
17:22that's very interesting.
17:23But maybe it's,
17:24maybe there's some kind of
17:26deeper experience
17:27that's happening to them.
17:29Because I have had
17:30a lot of people
17:32tell me stories
17:33about itong nga mga gruesome,
17:35you know,
17:36scary creatures
17:38that if you were just following
17:40a folkloric,
17:42you know,
17:42storytelling,
17:43you would think
17:44na they literally saw
17:45a swang
17:47or whatever it is.
17:47But for me,
17:48I would try to understand.
17:49I'll give a tangible example.
17:51Someone told me once
17:52na sadly for her,
17:55nagka-miscarriage siya.
17:56So this is what happened.
17:57In the middle of the night,
17:59she saw outside her window
18:01parang may mga pakpak,
18:02malaking pakpak,
18:02but she was,
18:03you know,
18:03she was out of it.
18:04The next day,
18:05she found out the news,
18:06the really bad news.
18:08So she went to
18:10mga albulare,
18:12mga folk healers.
18:13And what the folk healers did is
18:14kinalaban nila yung aswang.
18:16And then she felt lighter.
18:18She felt because of
18:19this spiritual warfare.
18:21So you can say
18:22na oo nga,
18:23inain nga yung
18:24aswang yung baby niya
18:25because yun yung
18:26story of like
18:27the aswang gets
18:28the large tongue
18:29and then papasok
18:30sa tiyan ng nanay.
18:32But you could also
18:33look at it in the sense
18:34that this woman
18:35just went through
18:36a very, very difficult
18:37time in her life.
18:38And this was
18:39for her,
18:40moral retribution
18:41for the really bad
18:43thing that happened
18:43to her.
18:45So this is
18:46fantastic language.
18:47If I told her
18:48na hindi naman
18:49totoo yung aswang,
18:50ano gagawin niya?
18:51What will she do now?
18:52How will she face
18:53her grief?
18:54Maybe this is a way
18:55for her to face
18:55her grief.
18:57So as a psychologist,
18:58I can't judge people
19:00for coming into
19:01my space
19:02and then telling me
19:03na parang,
19:03oh, I see this and that,
19:04ganyan, ganyan.
19:05I won't judge it,
19:06but I will try to understand.
19:08Because folklore
19:09is just a way
19:10for us
19:11to understand things.
19:12It's the lore
19:13of the folk.
19:14It's the way
19:15we use language
19:16to label things
19:18we don't understand.
19:19So yeah,
19:19that's how I would
19:20approach it.
19:22Okay.
19:22Now that you mentioned
19:23babies and pregnancy,
19:25so madalas natin
19:27marinig yung belief
19:29in paglilihi.
19:31Kaya lumabas na ganyan
19:32yung bata
19:33kasi, you know,
19:34the mother ate something
19:36or wanted to
19:37or went somewhere,
19:39et cetera.
19:40What is the social purpose
19:41of that?
19:43Yung paniniwala na yan.
19:45Pinaglihian,
19:46di ba?
19:47Even younger people believe.
19:50Well,
19:51lihi,
19:51actually,
19:52in the,
19:53if we look at it
19:55from an anthropological sense,
19:56yung magical belief niya,
19:59there are different laws
20:00in magic,
20:02in magical beliefs
20:03around the world.
20:04One of them is,
20:05kapag hinawakan mo
20:06isang bagay,
20:07you'll get the power.
20:08That's why yung sa translation,
20:09di ba?
20:10People throw towels
20:11on the Jesus Nazareno,
20:12sabihin nila,
20:12it's healing,
20:13so you touch it
20:14and then it comes to you.
20:15In the same way,
20:16sa lihi,
20:16you know,
20:17you get the characteristics
20:18of an object
20:19and then sana pumasa siya
20:20sa anak mo.
20:22But you know,
20:22scientifically,
20:23we also see that
20:24how the mother is
20:26in terms of her childbearing,
20:28is also the quality
20:30of life for the child.
20:31So yung kinakain niya,
20:32tama ba?
20:33You know,
20:33you have all these restrictions
20:34for pregnant women,
20:35di ba?
20:35And you also have
20:36all these recommended things
20:38na huwag ka masyadong ma-stress,
20:40na huwag,
20:40you know,
20:40mental health is very important
20:42for pregnant mothers.
20:43So,
20:44what you do
20:46as a pregnant mother
20:47will affect
20:47the health of your baby.
20:49Alam naman natin yun,
20:51even in common sense,
20:52I would think that
20:52paglilihi is part of that,
20:54you know,
20:56folk,
20:57ethnomedicine,
20:57so to speak.
20:58Do you think in a way,
21:00you know,
21:00these beliefs are
21:02a hindrance
21:03to progress
21:04in society?
21:06Kasi nga,
21:07and I come across this
21:08when I interview people,
21:09for example,
21:10right after disasters.
21:11Rather than try to explain
21:12and,
21:13or solve problems
21:14through scientific ways,
21:16some people,
21:17or many people,
21:18actually cite
21:18supernatural reasons,
21:20no?
21:20Even religious reasons,
21:21like,
21:22you know,
21:22blaming sinners
21:23for disasters,
21:25like flash flooding,
21:26rather than,
21:27say,
21:28rampant logging.
21:30It's easy,
21:31kasi,
21:31for you to connect,
21:32like,
21:33something downstream
21:33to something happening upstream,
21:35it takes a bit of analysis,
21:37right?
21:37But just to dismiss,
21:39like,
21:40something happening
21:41because of sin,
21:43or,
21:44you know,
21:44because the bishop blamed
21:46a lot of people
21:46in those communities
21:48believe in family planning,
21:49or something like that.
21:50And I've actually heard that
21:52before,
21:53no?
21:54Parang,
21:55isn't that like a kind of an,
21:56isn't that like an easy way out
21:58of trying to understand,
22:00like,
22:00real world
22:01Pinua?
22:02Right.
22:04This is very,
22:05a very nuanced discussion.
22:08Parang,
22:08parang,
22:08ang hirap lang sabihin
22:09yes or no,
22:10because,
22:11I would say,
22:12that even the language of folklore
22:13can be used
22:14in a progressive manner.
22:16Like,
22:16given your example,
22:17yung flash flooding
22:18in a village,
22:19oh yeah,
22:20there will be people
22:21who say,
22:21oh,
22:21it's because of the sinners
22:22na,
22:23ayan kasi gumagamit kayo
22:24ng contraception.
22:25You know what?
22:25Don't do that.
22:26But,
22:26there is a folk belief
22:28that we call gaba.
22:29Among the Visayans,
22:30we say gaba yan.
22:31Because you did something
22:33and then,
22:33you know,
22:34this is the punishment.
22:34And you could say that
22:36that's because
22:37you didn't take care of nature,
22:38yung illegal logging
22:39or whatever it is.
22:41That's,
22:41the flash flooding
22:42is the gaba for that.
22:44So,
22:44when we use folklore
22:45as a language,
22:47as a way to explain
22:48what's happening,
22:50rather than remove it entirely.
22:52Because if we remove it entirely,
22:54something else will replace it,
22:55which is the kind of folklore
22:56that will not be helpful,
22:58di ba?
22:59So,
22:59when we use folklore
23:00in a way that's helpful
23:01for people,
23:02this is using the language
23:04to help explain
23:05certain things.
23:06Like this,
23:07if a lot of communities,
23:09a lot of indigenous communities
23:10still carry the belief
23:12that we have to take care of nature
23:13so that it can take care of us.
23:15And this is folklore,
23:16for sure.
23:16A lot of the rituals
23:17that we see,
23:18the indigenous knowledge systems
23:20and practices
23:20are related to
23:22the environment
23:23that we live in,
23:23the cultivation of the land.
23:25There are practices na
23:27kapag bata yung hinahunt
23:29ng isang community,
23:30you know,
23:30you don't kill it,
23:31so you let it run free.
23:32If you catch fish,
23:33you return one
23:34so that it can tell the others.
23:36These are beliefs,
23:37but it's sustainable.
23:38It creates sustainability.
23:40So,
23:40when we use the language
23:41of folklore,
23:42it's not about
23:43whether or not folklore is true,
23:45but whether or not folklore
23:47has a use
23:48within a community.
23:50How do we use it
23:51to help explain
23:52and educate
23:52and, you know,
23:53talk about these important issues?
23:55Kasi kung tatanggalin natin yan,
23:57there will be something
23:58that will replace it.
23:59And the ones who will replace it
24:00will use it for negative things.
24:02So, yun yan.
24:03So, for things
24:04that will just enforce control
24:05or things that will,
24:07you know,
24:07create fear.
24:09But folklore
24:09can absolutely be used
24:11in a progressive manner.
24:12The sighting of
24:14these supernatural entities,
24:17is this
24:19mostly prevalent
24:21in the Philippines?
24:22Kasi nga,
24:23may mga Pilipinong
24:24nagsasabi
24:25na pag nasa abroad sila,
24:27wala raw silang sensitivity,
24:29no,
24:29to the paranormal
24:30or whatever you want
24:32to call them.
24:33Pero pag
24:34pagdating dito
24:35sa Pilipinas,
24:37eh, yan,
24:37nakikita raw nila ulit.
24:39So,
24:40I was just wondering,
24:41you know,
24:41when I heard that,
24:42could this be a function
24:43of social acceptance?
24:44Kasi nga,
24:45if they tell people
24:46in Europe,
24:47for example,
24:47na,
24:48you know,
24:48there's somebody
24:50else living in my apartment
24:51even though I'm
24:52the only renter there.
24:54Bakapagtawanan siya,
24:55no,
24:55ng mga Europeans
24:56or Filipinos
24:57who grew up there,
24:59no?
24:59And it might even
25:00be seen as
25:01irrational
25:02and unscientific
25:03and they might
25:04even be seen
25:05as unstable
25:05or unreliable
25:07as a worker,
25:08et cetera,
25:08no?
25:09Could it be
25:11that
25:11na pagdating dito
25:12sa Pilipinas,
25:13people feel
25:14freer
25:14to kind of
25:15express themselves
25:16in terms of
25:17what they believe
25:18they're seeing?
25:19Right.
25:20Absolutely.
25:21One of
25:22the good things
25:23brought up here
25:24is social acceptance.
25:26There will be cultures
25:27that do not accept,
25:28you know,
25:29this kind of thing
25:29na parang pag sinabi mo nga,
25:31sasabihin mo,
25:32okay ka lang ba?
25:32Are you okay?
25:33Maybe you need to rest,
25:34di ba?
25:35Ganyan.
25:37But that's also,
25:38that's one thing.
25:39Another aspect is,
25:40iba kasi yung
25:40diskurso nila,
25:41iba kasi yung
25:42stories nila.
25:43You go to the US,
25:43you will hear stories
25:45of cryptids
25:46and reptilians
25:47and UFOs.
25:48Iba yung folklore nila,
25:50iba yung stories nila.
25:51There will be stories
25:53passed on
25:53in different places.
25:54Let's not forget,
25:55na sa Europe,
25:56nandun yung mga,
25:57ano tawag dito,
25:58yung mga spiritists,
25:59mga spiritualists,
25:59they go around the table,
26:00they hold the table,
26:01tapos lilipad yun
26:02because they're contacting
26:03the spirits.
26:03That's where it came from.
26:05That's how
26:06the study of the paranormal,
26:08the scientific study
26:09of the paranormal started
26:10was because in Europe,
26:12nagkakaroon ng mga seances.
26:14So we see that
26:15it's just a different way
26:16of explaining things.
26:18Sila may fairies,
26:19tayo may encanto.
26:20Sila may,
26:20you know,
26:21these things are just
26:23different expressions
26:24of how humans interact
26:25with their environment.
26:27And I would say
26:27that people who go abroad
26:29because they don't have
26:30much of a connection
26:31with that culture,
26:33syempre,
26:34hindi nil makikita yung ghost
26:35ito.
26:35And they come back here,
26:36they'll remember the ghosts
26:37of their ancestors
26:38or the memories
26:39of the places
26:40that they go to
26:40because they know.
26:42They know the history here.
26:43And that's how
26:44memory is kept alive.
26:46Okay,
26:46pag sinabing Filipino psychology,
26:48kasi nga,
26:49yan ang focus mo,
26:51no?
26:51What exactly does this mean?
26:53How different is it
26:54from just plain psychology?
26:57Well,
26:58it is also
26:59just plain psychology.
27:00It just so happens
27:01na psychology natin siya.
27:03Because the psychology
27:04we've been taught
27:05isn't really
27:05100% our psychology.
27:08Di nala siya sa atin.
27:08It was imported
27:09from the US.
27:11Di nala siya.
27:12Itong sila
27:13Sigmund Freud,
27:13di ba?
27:14Right.
27:14This Sigmund Freud
27:15is a Western Europe,
27:17right?
27:17So Euro-American psychology
27:18is what we actually call
27:20mainstream psychology.
27:22So hindi na,
27:23we take it for granted
27:24na it's actually
27:25a Western psychology,
27:27not really a Filipino psychology.
27:28So in the 60s,
27:2970s,
27:30kanyan,
27:30people started asking questions.
27:32Silver Hilo Enriquez,
27:33Jaime Bulataw,
27:34people started to ask questions.
27:36Are we just parroting
27:38what people are saying
27:39is a Western psychology?
27:40We know the stages
27:42of development
27:42of children from Europe.
27:44We know the behavior
27:45and response of people
27:46from America.
27:47Pero tayo,
27:48alam ba natin,
27:48is it the same?
27:49Do our cultural frame
27:51fit in the same idea?
27:53So that's when
27:54they started to look at it.
27:55But what's interesting
27:56actually is
27:57that I didn't really start
27:58with Filipino psychology.
28:00Actually,
28:00hindi po yun yung nasimulan ko.
28:02That's for me,
28:03that was something
28:03I stumbled into,
28:04I would say.
28:05I really started
28:06in paranormal psychology.
28:07I was very fascinated
28:08about mga kababalaghan,
28:11these paranormal things.
28:12And then I realized na,
28:14bakit,
28:15why am I looking at research
28:16from Western cultures,
28:18research into the paranormal
28:20from Western cultures?
28:20And dami-dami natin kababalaghan.
28:22So I started looking into that.
28:24And that's,
28:24you know,
28:25where I started talaga.
28:27Okay.
28:28So we can unpack that
28:30a little bit.
28:31What makes that field
28:33of psychology,
28:34Filipino psychology?
28:35But,
28:37kasi may tinatawag nga ngayon,
28:39psikolohiyang Pilipino.
28:41I mean,
28:41you mentioned,
28:41you know,
28:42Virgilio Enriquez as well.
28:43He's one of the founders of that.
28:45And then,
28:45and then you've,
28:46you've coined the term
28:48psikodiwa,
28:49a combination of
28:50psikolohiya
28:51and diwa.
28:53So,
28:54ano naman yan?
28:55Actually,
28:56I,
28:56the term psikodiwa,
28:58for me,
28:58it represents more of the,
29:00yung mix nga,
29:01because I learned a lot
29:02from Father Bulata's work
29:04on the transpersonal
29:05and spiritual aspect
29:06of the mind.
29:07And then also mixing it
29:08with,
29:09you know,
29:09Virgilio Enriquez,
29:10Prospero Kovarzu Salazar,
29:11their work on grounding it
29:13in the Filipino essence,
29:15yung diwa natin.
29:16So for me,
29:17I found it to be a mix
29:19of the psychological
29:20and the spiritual.
29:21So for me,
29:22psikodiwa would represent
29:23na hindi lang tayo,
29:26parang statistical lang lahat,
29:28pero hindi lang din lahat tayo,
29:29parang spiritual lang lahat.
29:30There's a mix,
29:31a blend of what makes us human.
29:33And that is
29:34what psikodiwa is.
29:37You and other
29:38Filipino psychologists
29:40have written about
29:41the concept of kapwa.
29:43No?
29:44I mean,
29:44I even have the book,
29:45Kapwa,
29:46you know,
29:46written by a German,
29:48si Katrin de Guia,
29:49but you know,
29:49she lived in the Philippines
29:50for a long time.
29:51Essentially,
29:52it's seeing yourself
29:53in others
29:55and this helps anchor
29:56the Filipino sense
29:58of community,
29:59you know,
29:59but it helped me
30:00and perhaps others
30:01make sense
30:02of an apparent
30:03contradiction
30:04because,
30:05you know,
30:05for example,
30:06when I or
30:08anybody
30:09tries to cross the street,
30:10we don't feel
30:11a sense of kapwa
30:12from other Filipinos.
30:14Wala talagang bigayan.
30:15In a lot of situations
30:16in the Philippines,
30:17that's why we're like this,
30:18di ba?
30:18There's very,
30:19in a lot of context,
30:21there's very little sharing,
30:22di ba?
30:23There's tax evasion,
30:24there's corruption,
30:25et cetera.
30:25There's a lot of greed,
30:27di ba?
30:28Parang,
30:29parang where's the kapwa?
30:30You know,
30:30where's the kapwa?
30:31Is this only
30:32in certain situations
30:33when we see
30:34this communal spirit,
30:36like when we see
30:36like pre-colonial cultures?
30:38Is that where
30:40psychologists,
30:41psychologists like yourself
30:42say that
30:44that's really
30:45kind of the,
30:46the natural,
30:48you know,
30:49locus of kapwa
30:50as opposed to
30:51us modern Filipinos
30:52where,
30:53you know,
30:53if we're driving a car,
30:54we won't let,
30:55we won't let pedestrians
30:56even in the crosswalk
30:57cross the street
30:58because,
30:58you know,
30:59we're,
30:59you know,
31:00we're more likely,
31:01you know,
31:02the survival of the fittest.
31:04But that's not kapwa,
31:05di ba?
31:05It's the opposite of kapwa.
31:07Okay.
31:08The thing is,
31:09with kapwa,
31:10si Verhila Enriquez
31:11suggested it,
31:12that it is the core value
31:13of a lot of these concepts.
31:15But it was also,
31:16nung binaring up niya yun,
31:17it was also within the context
31:18of a very long,
31:20you know,
31:21scholarly discourse
31:21surrounding Filipino values.
31:23So here's my opinion
31:24and this is just,
31:25ako lang to.
31:27I would say that
31:28because it is a value,
31:29because it is a core value,
31:31that does not necessarily mean
31:33that all of us have it.
31:34It's a cultural value
31:36in the sense
31:37that we strive towards it.
31:39So,
31:39di ba,
31:40we say,
31:41madaling maging tao,
31:42pero ang hirap
31:42makipag,
31:43magpakatao.
31:44This is kapwa in action.
31:46Paano nga ba tayo
31:47magpakatao?
31:48What does it mean
31:49na magpakatao?
31:51So,
31:52kapwa,
31:52on a fundamental level,
31:53I would say,
31:54is really not
31:55just the practices
31:57that we do
31:58now,
31:58just because someone
31:59did something bad,
32:00then therefore,
32:00you know,
32:01you're not kapwa.
32:02Kapwa is the recognition
32:04that whoever we are
32:06and wherever we are,
32:08our identity
32:09is tied to belongingness.
32:11Nakilala ko lang
32:12ang sarili ko
32:12because I have a family,
32:14because I have barkada,
32:15because I have friends,
32:16and I'm interacting
32:17with people.
32:18Kapwa is a relationality.
32:20So,
32:20what it says really
32:22is that
32:23bilang tao,
32:24hindi akong nag-iisa.
32:25Never akong nag-iisa.
32:26Kahit na ako,
32:27kahit na makasarili akong tao,
32:30hindi pa rin ako nag-iisa.
32:31Kasi there will be
32:32other people
32:33that I have to interact
32:34with all the time.
32:36Tapos dito din galing
32:37yung utang na loob.
32:38Ngayon,
32:38people think that
32:39utang na loob
32:39is just a transaction
32:40na parang,
32:41alam mo yun,
32:42kapag ginawa ko para sa'yo,
32:44balik mo sa akin
32:45na may interes.
32:46So,
32:46politicians sometimes,
32:47you know,
32:47with these things,
32:48utang na loob
32:49can be a very dangerous
32:50and toxic thing.
32:51Parents with their children.
32:53But utang na loob,
32:54if we look at it,
32:54kasi yung salitang loob,
32:56ang dami-dami pa niyang
32:57philosophical implications,
32:58kagandahang loob,
32:59lakas ng loob,
33:00and so on.
33:01So,
33:01ano yung inuutang natin?
33:02Yung kalooban natin?
33:04Our entire self
33:05is owed
33:06to other people.
33:08Who we are
33:09is only us
33:10because
33:11of other people.
33:12So,
33:12I'll give an example.
33:13Whenever I ask my students,
33:14sabihin ko,
33:15sino ka?
33:15And then they would give me
33:16their name.
33:17Their name is not just their own.
33:19Binigay sa kanya yun
33:20ng pamilya niya.
33:21Your body,
33:22your affiliations,
33:23everything that you are
33:24as a person
33:25is shaped by the things
33:26you do in the world.
33:28Yun yung kapwa.
33:29That's the relation
33:30we have with everything.
33:32So,
33:32kaya siya shared identity
33:33is because
33:34I can see myself in you
33:35kasi tao ka rin.
33:37And yes,
33:38it's a value
33:38and values mean
33:40because they're a good thing,
33:42values mean
33:42that we strive towards it.
33:45Merong mga tao
33:45na hindi marunong
33:46makipagkapwa.
33:47At totoo naman yun,
33:48di ba?
33:49Merong mga tao
33:49na hindi marunong
33:51magpakatao.
33:52But,
33:53just because
33:53there are people like that
33:54does not mean
33:55that kapwa does not exist.
33:56It's still possible.
33:58It's something
33:58we strive towards.
33:59It's something
34:00we've cultivated.
34:02Okay,
34:03I'm trying to understand this
34:04in a real world setting.
34:06So,
34:09I'm a sports fan
34:10and I've been following
34:11the career of Alex Ayala.
34:13I guess you're
34:14at least vaguely familiar.
34:16Very familiar, yeah.
34:18You're very familiar.
34:18Okay, good.
34:19So,
34:19you know,
34:20she said,
34:21di ba,
34:21na wherever she goes
34:22in the world,
34:23she feels at home.
34:26Di ba?
34:26Kasi nandiyan yung community,
34:28eh, no?
34:29And she's,
34:30you know,
34:30when she addresses
34:31Filipinos and Tagalog
34:32in the audience,
34:33wherever she is,
34:34it could be
34:35in a Scandinavian country,
34:37et cetera.
34:37Lagi may Pinoy diyan.
34:39And then she also
34:40always refers to
34:41the kapwa-Pilipino,
34:42mga kababayan,
34:43kapwa-Pilipino.
34:43Could that be an example
34:45of kapwa in a positive sense?
34:47I mean,
34:47you said,
34:48you know,
34:48it's something to aspire for,
34:49but is that like,
34:51is that the kapwa
34:53that we can actually see
34:54in the real world?
34:56Right.
34:57That's a good example.
34:58I'll extend it further.
35:00So,
35:00we have kapwa-tao,
35:02you know,
35:03wherever I go also,
35:04even if I go abroad,
35:05may konti lang mag,
35:06may gumanaan,
35:07titingin na ako
35:08sa Pilipino.
35:09And then you can sense it.
35:11You can feel it.
35:12Pilipino siguro ito
35:13kahit hindi pa siya
35:13nagsasalita.
35:14So,
35:15that's on a surface level.
35:16That's kapwa-Pilipino
35:17for sure.
35:19Pero meron din tayong
35:19pakikipagkapwa
35:20sa kapwa-tao
35:21na kahit na hindi ka
35:22Pilipino,
35:22I can still treat you
35:23like a person.
35:24This is the inherent
35:25human dignity.
35:26That's kapwa.
35:29There's also
35:29kapwa nila lang.
35:31I can treat animals
35:32in the right way.
35:33I can treat nature
35:35and earth
35:35in the right way.
35:36So we see it
35:37extend to ecology.
35:38We see it even
35:39nakikipagkapwa tayo
35:40sa mga espirito
35:41at nilalang
35:42and whatever it is.
35:43Even if people
35:44aren't here,
35:45nakikipagkapwa pa rin tayo.
35:47People who have
35:47passed on,
35:48they still visit us
35:50in dreams,
35:51nagpaparamdam
35:51and so on.
35:52Loved ones
35:53who passed on.
35:54Loved ones
35:54who are abroad.
35:55Loved ones
35:56who are overseas
35:57Filipino workers
35:57or immigrants.
35:59Kapwa pa rin natin sila
36:00kahit nawala sila dito.
36:01And we think
36:02that just because
36:02this is a Tagalog-Filipino term
36:04na Tagalog lang
36:05or Filipino lang
36:06meron ito.
36:07But we see this
36:07in other cultures.
36:08The Africans
36:09have Ubuntu
36:10which means
36:11I am because we are.
36:13The Hawaiians
36:14use Ohana.
36:15Ohana means family
36:16but also it means community.
36:18So it's not just
36:19a Filipino thing.
36:20It's a human thing.
36:22It just so happens
36:23na meron tayong term
36:24for this kind of
36:25philosophy
36:26or social interaction.
36:28So could we say
36:29that modernization
36:32and the pressures
36:33of the kind of
36:33industrial world
36:34the capitalistic world
36:36have kind of
36:36broken our bonds
36:37with those
36:40traditional values.
36:41Kasi nga
36:42we still do see
36:43a lot of
36:44kindness
36:45among Filipinos
36:46towards strangers.
36:48Yes.
36:48Kaya kilala tayo
36:50for our
36:50friendliness to tourists
36:52and our hospitality
36:53and all of that.
36:54At the same time
36:55may mga Pilipino rin
36:56na ninanakawan
36:57yung mga turista na yun.
36:58And there's a lot
37:01of scamming
37:02cheating
37:02in this culture
37:04in our society.
37:05So would you say
37:06that's not really
37:08Filipino culture.
37:09The real Filipino culture
37:11is itong
37:11hospitality
37:12generosity
37:13charity
37:14kindness
37:15towards strangers
37:16and all of that.
37:18Yan ang kakwa.
37:18Well I would say
37:20you know it's
37:21because when we talk
37:22about culture
37:23culture carries values
37:24but culture is also
37:26you know what people
37:26live with.
37:27It yung kultura nila
37:28meaning it's
37:29the way that they live.
37:31So I won't judge
37:32a culture just because
37:33it's like this
37:33but there are differences
37:34and there are inherent
37:36human values
37:37that regardless
37:38of how a culture
37:39presents it
37:40may have to be
37:41questions or
37:42questioned
37:43or whatever it is.
37:44But I would say also
37:46when it comes
37:47to modernization
37:48one of the things
37:49that we have to ask
37:50is is it really
37:50modernization
37:51in other words
37:52is it really
37:53convenience
37:54for our culture
37:55in our own terms
37:56or is it
37:56westernization?
37:57Is it actually
37:58Americanization?
38:00Is it actually
38:01a modern form
38:02of colonialism?
38:03Now we have
38:04to follow
38:05the standards
38:06of the industrial
38:07standards
38:08of you know
38:09places abroad.
38:10I remember
38:10there was a discourse
38:11on modernizing
38:13jeepneys.
38:13So we have
38:15local manufacturers
38:16why are we
38:17looking abroad
38:18for manufacturers
38:19for our own
38:20jeepneys?
38:20So these are
38:21examples of
38:22para kanina ba
38:23yung modernization?
38:24Who is it for?
38:26Is it really
38:26for us
38:27or are we
38:27just you know
38:28humahabol lang ba
38:29tayo
38:30to as a
38:32as part of
38:33the global
38:33community?
38:34Who are we
38:35really trying
38:35to appease?
38:36Because if it
38:37were actual
38:38modernization
38:39then it should
38:39be for the
38:40Filipino
38:41for our
38:42national issues
38:43for our
38:43actual problems
38:44rather than
38:45these
38:45you know
38:46surface level
38:47changes
38:47which are
38:48really again
38:48just
38:49westernization.
38:50So paano
38:52nawawala yung
38:52values natin?
38:54Here.
38:55It's westernization.
38:57Okay I want to
38:58circle back
38:58to this
39:00concept of
39:00kapwa
39:01and kind of
39:01ground it
39:02in popular
39:02culture
39:03kasi nga
39:03you also
39:04wrote about
39:05Forgotten Island.
39:06Okay there's
39:07a line in
39:08your essay
39:09there.
39:10Sabi mo
39:11at the core
39:11of this movie
39:12was an
39:13important value
39:14how
39:14relationships
39:15shape
39:16who we
39:17are.
39:17In other
39:18words how
39:18our identity
39:19is formed
39:19and shared
39:20with our
39:21kapwa.
39:23Okay so
39:23just recalling
39:24the story
39:25because that's
39:26the forgotten
39:27island.
39:28How did you
39:29see this
39:30kind of
39:32materialize
39:32in the movie?
39:33If kapwa
39:34is who we
39:36are based
39:37on how we
39:38relate to
39:38others how
39:39else would
39:39we relate to
39:40others but
39:40through memories.
39:41we relate to
39:43others through
39:44the way
39:44the things we
39:45remember about
39:45people.
39:46When someone
39:47remembers my
39:48birthday someone
39:48remembers what
39:49I love
39:50it's like
39:50it's a good
39:51look
39:51because thank
39:52you for
39:52remembering
39:53me.
39:54If my
39:56friend is
39:56not here
39:56but I
39:57suddenly think
39:57of them
39:58and I
39:58would say
40:00thank you
40:01for remembering
40:01me.
40:02So these
40:03are
40:03in the movie
40:05memory plays
40:06such an
40:06important role
40:07because the
40:07characters
40:08are moving
40:08abroad.
40:09They're
40:09moving
40:10abroad.
40:10So the
40:11danger
40:12there is
40:13to forget
40:14where you
40:14came from.
40:16Yung
40:16pinanggalingan
40:17mo.
40:17And this
40:18is our
40:19roots.
40:21It's so
40:21fascinating
40:22and this
40:22is my
40:23own
40:23opinion
40:23is that
40:24when I
40:24was watching
40:24the movie
40:25I kept
40:26thinking
40:27I kept
40:29trying to
40:29figure out
40:29and then I
40:30realized
40:30it's not
40:31really here.
40:32It's
40:32someone's
40:33recollection
40:34of what
40:34the Philippines
40:35was.
40:36So it's
40:37really just
40:37a memory
40:38of a
40:38memory
40:38of a
40:39memory.
40:40So in
40:40the movie
40:41you see
40:42tangibly
40:43sa bracelet
40:43nila
40:44that's
40:44all their
40:45memories
40:45of each
40:46other.
40:46You forget
40:46that.
40:47You forget
40:47your connection
40:48to people.
40:49Memory
40:49is who
40:50we are.
40:50Kaya
40:51pag
40:51tumatanda
40:52yung isang
40:52tao
40:52that's
40:52literally
40:53what we
40:53call it.
40:53Pagtanda
40:54placing a
40:55mark.
40:56And then
40:56when we
40:57remember
40:57something
40:58tinatandaan
40:59natin.
41:00So this
41:01has multiple
41:02meanings.
41:02It has
41:03multiple
41:03meanings.
41:04Tanda
41:04is a
41:04marker.
41:05And when
41:06we grow
41:06older
41:07because
41:08they're
41:08a
41:08mark
41:08of a
41:09place
41:09and a
41:10time.
41:10So who
41:11we are
41:12is shaped
41:12by place
41:14and time.
41:15Panahon.
41:16Panahon
41:16comes from
41:17the word
41:17actually
41:17nahon
41:18which is
41:18to borrow
41:18a place.
41:20Borrow
41:20a time.
41:21Panahon
41:21did not
41:22used to
41:22mean
41:22time in
41:23the
41:24calendrical
41:25calendar
41:25clock time.
41:26It meant
41:27the time
41:27that you
41:27spent in
41:28a certain
41:28place.
41:29So when
41:29I say
41:30something like
41:30Dubai
41:31or Cebu
41:33or whatever
41:33it is,
41:34you're
41:34talking about
41:35how you
41:36were shaped
41:36by a
41:37place.
41:37Not
41:38necessarily
41:38the years
41:39you spent
41:40there.
41:41So it's
41:42the memory
41:42that we
41:43share with
41:43each other.
41:43Even the
41:44ghosts
41:44that we
41:44were talking
41:45about
41:45kanina,
41:46all of
41:46that is
41:47the
41:47memory
41:47of
41:47places.
41:48So you
41:49also
41:50mentioned
41:51decolonization.
41:52So you
41:53hear this
41:53a lot
41:54in
41:54discourse,
41:54especially
41:55among
41:55Filipinos
41:55overseas.
41:56Para mas
41:56na-appreciate
41:57nila yung
41:58term na yun.
41:58I don't
42:00hear
42:00much
42:01among
42:01Filipinos
42:02here in
42:02the
42:02Philippines.
42:03But why
42:05is it
42:05important?
42:06Why
42:06should we
42:07decolonize?
42:08Is it
42:09inherently
42:09bad?
42:10So
42:10decolonization
42:11just means
42:12to remove
42:12what's
42:13colonial.
42:14What that
42:14means is
42:15when we
42:16see
42:16ourselves
42:17as
42:18second
42:19class
42:19in our
42:20own
42:20country,
42:21why do
42:22we think
42:22of ourselves
42:23as second
42:23class?
42:24We still
42:24have this
42:25mindset,
42:25colonial
42:26mentality.
42:27We see
42:28this in
42:28the
42:28sense
42:29when
42:30we
42:31prioritize
42:31the
42:32foreigner.
42:33You mentioned
42:34it earlier,
42:35we're so
42:36hospitable
42:37to tourists.
42:37We're
42:38a resort
42:38for them.
42:40Why
42:40is this
42:41a resort
42:42for them?
42:42This
42:42should
42:42be my
42:43country.
42:44Anyway,
42:45this is
42:46an example
42:46of we
42:47still carry
42:47these
42:48things.
42:48We've
42:48been
42:48educated,
42:49the
42:51miseducation
42:52of the
42:52Filipino
42:52into being
42:53the
42:53compliant
42:54native.
42:54You're
42:55just
42:55supposed
42:55to
42:55follow
42:56what
42:57people
42:57say.
42:58So
42:59decolonization
42:59I know
43:00is an
43:01academic
43:01term and
43:02because of
43:03that,
43:03sometimes
43:04people feel
43:04a little
43:05distant
43:05from it
43:06and it
43:06becomes
43:06this
43:07signal
43:07of
43:07virtue
43:08or
43:08whatever
43:08it
43:08is.
43:09But
43:09I'll
43:09put it
43:09in
43:09more
43:10common
43:10sense
43:10terms.
43:12You know
43:12the desire
43:13path.
43:14When it
43:15comes to
43:15you go
43:15to a
43:16park,
43:16for
43:16example,
43:17in a
43:17park,
43:18there
43:18might
43:18be
43:18concrete
43:18roads
43:19and
43:20the
43:20concrete
43:20roads
43:20might
43:20be
43:21useful,
43:21but
43:21then
43:21you'll
43:22also
43:22see
43:22that
43:22there's
43:23a
43:23dirt
43:23road.
43:24People
43:24walk.
43:25And that's
43:29the intuitive
43:30path because
43:31it's faster
43:31and easier.
43:32Now,
43:33if we put
43:33it in
43:33terms of
43:34colonization,
43:35the concrete
43:35is the
43:36colonial
43:37idea.
43:37Is it
43:38useless
43:38or will
43:39it still
43:40help us
43:40move
43:41things
43:41along?
43:42Do we
43:42need to
43:42clean
43:43the concrete
43:44or do
43:46we also
43:46have to
43:47learn how
43:47these
43:48pathways
43:49transform?
43:50How
43:50do these
43:51desire
43:51paths
43:52transform?
43:52I'll
43:52give
43:52an
43:53example.
43:54Here's
43:54a more
43:55concrete
43:55example
43:55when it
43:56comes to
43:56city
43:57planning.
43:58We
43:58see
43:59minsan
43:59kahit
44:00na hindi
44:00siya
44:00tamang
44:01tawiran,
44:01tatawid yung
44:02tao dun.
44:03We
44:03see this
44:04so many
44:04times.
44:05Ngayon
44:05gusto nila
44:05ibalik yung
44:06fines for
44:07jaywalking
44:07and all
44:08these
44:08things.
44:08But you
44:09have to
44:09ask the
44:09question,
44:10is it
44:10actually
44:11inconvenient?
44:12Is the
44:12design
44:13inconvenient
44:13for
44:14people?
44:14Now,
44:14we have
44:14to ask,
44:15para kanino
44:16ba yung
44:16kalsada?
44:17Is it
44:22this goes
44:22back to
44:23the
44:23intuitive
44:24common
44:24sense of
44:25people?
44:25How do
44:26we use
44:27the land
44:27in the
44:28way that
44:28we know
44:29how?
44:30Okay,
44:30well,
44:31connected to
44:31that,
44:31specifically,
44:32what did
44:33colonialism or
44:35colonization
44:35take away
44:36from us
44:37that we
44:38would have
44:38been better
44:39off
44:39retaining?
44:41And then
44:42a related
44:42question,
44:43and what
44:44would we
44:44be better
44:45off
44:45reviving?
44:47So,
44:48there's this
44:48idea that
44:50decolonization
44:51means going
44:51back to
44:52the
44:52pre-colonial,
44:53before we
44:54were colonized
44:55and all.
44:55So,
44:56this does
44:57a few
44:58things.
44:58Number
44:58one,
44:59you're
45:00talking about
45:00going back
45:01to the
45:0116th
45:02century.
45:02It's not
45:03practical
45:04today,
45:04obviously.
45:05There are
45:06a lot
45:06of things
45:06that may
45:07be useful.
45:08And
45:09secondly,
45:09when we
45:10keep talking
45:11about,
45:11let's go
45:11back to
45:11the
45:12pre-colonial,
45:12it erases
45:13the
45:14indigenous
45:14ways of
45:15assimilating
45:16and understanding
45:17and revolting
45:18and all
45:18these things
45:19that we've
45:19experienced
45:20in 400
45:21years of
45:22colonization.
45:23So,
45:23how do
45:24we look
45:26at what
45:26has happened?
45:27So,
45:27there was
45:27this
45:27fantastic
45:28paper
45:28by Stephen
45:29Acabado
45:30on the
45:31rice terraces,
45:32on the
45:32Banaue rice
45:32terraces.
45:33We think,
45:34we talk about
45:35it in such
45:35romantic terms.
45:36It's been
45:36around for
45:372,000 years,
45:38before the
45:39colonizers,
45:40but actually,
45:41it has a
45:42much nearer
45:43history.
45:44So,
45:55it
45:56shows
45:57that
45:57the
45:58indigenous
45:59genius,
45:59the
46:00indio
46:01genius,
46:02is not
46:02something
46:03that's
46:03in the
46:03past,
46:04but it's
46:04how people
46:05contend
46:05with
46:06history.
46:06It's
46:07how people
46:07continue
46:08to interact
46:09with
46:09history.
46:09So,
46:10we see
46:10it today
46:11na parang
46:12andami
46:13nating
46:13mga
46:13bagay
46:13ngayon
46:14na
46:14totoo,
46:15pinipilit
46:16burahin,
46:17pero andami
46:17din mga
46:18bagay
46:18na although
46:19they had
46:19a colonial
46:20origin,
46:21nilagay
46:22natin
46:22sa panlasa
46:23natin,
46:23and now
46:23it's
46:24fully
46:24Filipino.
46:25I'll give
46:25an example,
46:26yung
46:26Filipino
46:26spaghetti,
46:28this is
46:29from the
46:29Americans
46:30by way
46:30of the
46:30Italians
46:31and so
46:31on,
46:31ganyan-ganyan,
46:32pero
46:32saan ka
46:33pa nakikita
46:33ng Filipino
46:34spaghetti?
46:35It's
46:35ridiculous,
46:36but it's
46:36hours,
46:40Filipino
46:40spaghetti.
46:41So,
46:41this is
46:42something
46:42that we
46:42see
46:43when it
46:43comes to
46:44cuisine,
46:44when it
46:44comes to
46:45the
46:45language
46:45that we
46:45use,
46:46even
46:46though
46:47we're
46:47using
46:47all
46:47these,
46:48even
46:48if we
46:49use
46:49the
46:49religion
46:50of
46:50the
46:50colonizers,
46:51which is
46:51Catholicism,
46:52and so
46:52on,
46:53we apply
46:54it in
46:54our
46:55sa panlasa
46:56natin,
46:56how do
46:57we express
46:57it?
46:58That's
46:58where the
46:59real
46:59intuition
46:59comes
47:00in.
47:00Ngayon,
47:01when there
47:02are
47:02policies
47:02that
47:03forcefully
47:03erase
47:04the ways
47:05that we
47:05understand,
47:06like
47:06removing
47:10local
47:10ways
47:12of
47:12expressing
47:13themselves.
47:14Now,
47:14that's
47:14something
47:15we have
47:15to
47:15question.
47:16Kasi
47:16saan
47:16nagagaling
47:17yung
47:17pressure?
47:18Are we,
47:18again,
47:19forcing
47:19ourselves
47:19to
47:20westernize?
47:20Kasi
47:21gusto
47:21natin
47:21international
47:22standards
47:23tayo?
47:23For
47:23whom?
47:24And
47:24for
47:24what?
47:25So,
47:25how do
47:26we
47:26manage
47:26that?
47:27So,
47:28these
47:28are
47:28things
47:28that
47:28I
47:29think
47:29have
47:29more
47:29implication
47:30in
47:30policy
47:31making,
47:31have
47:31more
47:32implication
47:32in
47:32how
47:32people
47:33do
47:33leadership
47:33on a
47:34national
47:34level.
47:35But
47:35for
47:35me,
47:36yung
47:36concern
47:37is more
47:38on the
47:38everyday,
47:39more
47:39on the
47:39grounded
47:39experience.
47:40How
47:41are
47:41Filipinos
47:41today?
47:42What
47:42is our
47:43experience
47:44today?
47:44That's
47:45where
47:45indigenous
47:45psychology
47:46comes
47:46in.
47:47Okay,
47:47yeah,
47:47you
47:47want to
47:48touch
47:48on
47:48mother
47:48tongue.
47:49So,
47:49what
47:50do
47:50you
47:50think
47:50of
47:50the
47:50mother
47:50tongue
47:51policy?
47:53It was
47:54an
47:54experiment
47:54and
47:55now
47:55there's
47:55an
47:56effort
47:56to
47:56phase
47:57it
47:57out,
47:57right?
47:59Has
47:59it
48:00been
48:00a
48:00failure
48:00or
48:01it
48:01hasn't
48:01been
48:01given
48:02enough
48:05So,
48:06language
48:06shows
48:07us
48:07doorways
48:08for
48:09understanding
48:09things.
48:10We have
48:10terms
48:10for
48:11things
48:11because
48:12it was
48:12valuable
48:13to us.
48:14We have
48:14terms
48:14for
48:15snow
48:15because
48:15it's
48:15snow
48:16here.
48:16So,
48:16niebe
48:17is
48:17Spanish,
48:18right?
48:18But we
48:18have
48:18so many
48:19terms
48:19for
48:19rice.
48:20We have
48:24terms
48:24for rice
48:24because
48:25it's
48:25important
48:26to us.
48:26So,
48:27imagine
48:27erasing
48:28these
48:28terms.
48:29Then
48:29we remove
48:30part of
48:30our
48:30culture.
48:31We
48:31remove
48:31aspects
48:32of
48:32it.
48:32It
48:33removes
48:33part
48:34of
48:34our
48:34soul.
48:35Now,
48:36we speak
48:36in
48:37English
48:37but
48:39we retain
48:40that way
48:40of
48:40expressing
48:41ourselves.
48:42So,
48:42it's
48:42good
48:42for
48:42us
48:42because
48:43we
48:43understand
48:43each
48:43other.
48:44But
48:44then
48:44when
48:45we
48:45start
48:45to
48:45remove
48:46marginalized
48:47languages,
48:48we lose
48:49an aspect
48:50of
48:50humanity
48:50that we
48:51will not
48:51recover
48:52because
48:52it will not
48:53pass.
48:53I know
48:55a lot
48:55of
48:56indigenous
48:56people
48:57who also
48:57talk
48:58about
48:58the
48:59children
48:59and
49:00their
49:00children
49:00want to
49:01learn
49:01the
49:02language
49:02and
49:03the
49:03culture
49:03because
49:03they want
49:04to move
49:05abroad or
49:05be
49:05westernized
49:06and so
49:06on.
49:06Because
49:07where are
49:07the
49:07opportunities
49:08here
49:08to foster
49:09and cultivate
49:10our
49:10culture?
49:12So,
49:12it's
49:12what's
49:13happening.
49:13When we
49:14remove the
49:14mother tongue,
49:15we remove
49:16ways of
49:16understanding
49:17ourselves.
49:17We remove
49:17memory and
49:18connection
49:19to who we
49:20are as
49:21people.
49:21So,
49:23why should
49:25we be
49:25scared
49:26of
49:26ghosts
49:26then?
49:27I don't
49:28think we
49:30should be
49:30scared of
49:30ghosts
49:31actually.
49:32Because
49:32fear
49:33is a
49:34psychological
49:35reaction
49:35to push
49:36something
49:36away
49:37because
49:37it's
49:37a
49:37threat.
49:38But
49:38I would
49:39say that
49:39a lot
49:39of these
49:40things
49:40aren't
49:40really
49:40threats.
49:41There
49:42is a
49:42concept
49:43in
49:43psychology.
49:44Now,
49:44just
49:45because
49:45I work
49:46within
49:46Filipino
49:46psychology
49:47does not
49:48mean
49:48that
49:49other
49:49psychology
49:49so we
49:50can
49:50look
49:50and
49:50see
49:51what
49:51works.
49:51So,
49:52Western
49:52psychology
49:53you have
49:53the
49:53concept
49:53of
49:54the
49:54shadow
49:54from
49:55Carl
49:55Jung
49:55and
49:56the
49:56Western
49:56psychologists.
49:57The
49:58shadow
49:58is
49:58everything
49:59that
50:00you
50:00had
50:00to
50:01remove
50:01from
50:01yourself
50:02because
50:02you
50:02wanted
50:02to
50:03be
50:03a
50:03good
50:03person
50:03in
50:04society.
50:04All
50:06of
50:07that
50:07went
50:07into
50:08your
50:08shadow.
50:09It's
50:09a
50:09shadow
50:10because
50:10it
50:10follows
50:11you
50:11around.
50:11It's
50:12still
50:12there
50:12and
50:13it
50:13will
50:13affect
50:13you
50:14in
50:14ways
50:14that
50:14you
50:14don't
50:15understand.
50:15I would
50:16say
50:16that
50:17ghosts
50:17and
50:18hauntings
50:18are part
50:20of a
50:20collective
50:21shadow.
50:21They're
50:22things
50:22that we
50:22don't
50:23want
50:23to
50:23remember.
50:24Because
50:24often,
50:25the
50:25multo,
50:27it's
50:27violence,
50:29really
50:29negative
50:29things,
50:30bad
50:31things
50:31happen
50:31to
50:31them,
50:32nahulugan
50:33or
50:34nagpakamatay,
50:35all these
50:35things.
50:36These
50:36are
50:37negative
50:37energies
50:38that
50:39we
50:39don't
50:40want
50:40to
50:40remember.
50:41But
50:41just pray
50:44for them
50:44or pray
50:45for
50:45them,
50:45whatever
50:45it is.
50:46We pray
50:47for them,
50:47that's the
50:48language that
50:49we use
50:49in a
50:49spiritual,
50:50pray for
50:50them,
50:50but
50:50actually
50:51what
50:51we're
50:51doing
50:51is
50:51remembering
50:52them,
50:53honoring
50:53them,
50:54respecting
50:55their
50:55memory.
50:56So
50:56allowing
50:57ourselves
50:57to also
50:57move
50:58on.
50:58I
50:59remember
50:59there
51:00was a
51:02long
51:03time ago
51:03yung
51:04sunog
51:04sa
51:04ozone
51:05disco,
51:06right?
51:06There
51:07was a
51:07whole
51:08thing
51:08about
51:08it and
51:09I
51:09remember
51:09Tony
51:10Perez
51:10wrote
51:11about
51:11his
51:12experience
51:12with
51:12ozone
51:13disco
51:13where
51:13he
51:13would
51:13bring
51:14yung
51:14kanyang
51:14mga
51:14students,
51:16mediums,
51:16they would
51:17go to
51:18ozone
51:18disco
51:18and
51:18channel
51:19the
51:20spirits
51:20around
51:21them.
51:22So
51:22even
51:23those
51:23spirits
51:23because
51:24something
51:25bad
51:25happened
51:25to
51:25them,
51:26they
51:26can't
51:26move
51:26on
51:26to
51:26the
51:27next
51:27world.
51:27What
51:28those
51:28spirits
51:29also
51:29told
51:29the
51:29mediums
51:30was
51:30they
51:31want
51:31their
51:31families
51:32to
51:32move
51:32on
51:33because
51:33when
51:33they
51:34move
51:38psychologically
51:39is
51:40it's
51:41also
51:41a
51:41time
51:41to
51:41grieve.
51:42There's
51:43a
51:43time
51:43to
51:43grieve
51:43of
51:44this
51:44loss
51:44that
51:45we
51:45experience
51:45and
51:46if
51:46we
51:46keep
51:46getting
51:47haunted
51:47by
51:48old
51:49ghosts
51:49in
51:50our
51:50cities
51:51then
51:51maybe
51:51it's
51:52time
51:52to
51:52face
51:53them.
51:53Maybe
51:54it's
51:54time
51:54to
51:54face
51:54the
51:55violence
51:55that's
51:55happening
51:56in
51:56the
51:56city.
51:56Maybe
51:59it's
52:00time
52:00to
52:00face
52:00that.
52:01And
52:01how
52:01do
52:02we
52:02do
52:02that?
52:02And
52:03that
52:03I
52:03think
52:03is
52:03where
52:04policy
52:04comes
52:04in.
52:05That's
52:05where
52:05conversations
52:06come
52:06in.
52:06It's
52:07not
52:07just
52:07that
52:07we
52:07get
52:08stuck
52:08in
52:08the
52:08folklore
52:09and
52:09the
52:09fear
52:09of
52:09it.
52:10But
52:10how
52:10do
52:10we
52:11face
52:11the
52:11fear
52:11and
52:12what
52:12do
52:12we
52:12do
52:12with
52:12it?
52:13Okay,
52:14so I'm
52:14going to
52:14wrap
52:15up by
52:16asking
52:16something
52:17related
52:17to
52:17that.
52:18How
52:18can
52:18we
52:18leverage
52:20indigenous
52:21culture,
52:22these
52:22markers,
52:23the concept
52:24of
52:24capua,
52:25to make
52:26us
52:26a
52:26better
52:27society
52:27where
52:28people
52:28don't
52:29have
52:29to
52:29suffer
52:30so
52:30much.
52:31So how
52:32do we
52:33bring
52:33these
52:33concepts
52:34to our
52:34modern
52:35day
52:35life?
52:37These
52:38concepts
52:38still
52:39exist.
52:40That's
52:40why
52:40we're
52:40still
52:40talking
52:41about
52:41them.
52:42And
52:42that's
52:42why
52:42they're
52:42still
52:43so
52:43important.
52:44And
52:44people
52:44talk
52:44all
52:44about
52:45toxic
52:45Filipino
52:46values
52:46this
52:46and
52:46toxic
52:47Filipino
52:47values
52:48that.
52:48But
52:48the
52:48fact
52:49that
52:49we're
52:49still
52:49talking
52:50about
52:50them
52:50means
52:50that
52:51it's
52:51still
52:51part
52:51of
52:52our
52:52understanding.
52:53So
52:53the
52:54question
52:54now
52:55is
52:55how
52:56do
52:56understand?
52:57How
52:58do
52:58it
52:58study
52:59right now?
53:00And
53:01we don't
53:01have to
53:01go to
53:02the
53:0216th
53:02century
53:03to
53:03find
53:03out.
53:04We
53:04can
53:04just
53:04ask
53:04people.
53:05And
53:05this
53:05is
53:06one
53:06of
53:06the
53:06things
53:06that
53:06we
53:06do
53:07in
53:07Psikologiyang
53:07Pilipino
53:08is
53:08keeping
53:09culture
53:11alive
53:11through
53:12people.
53:12And
53:13how
53:13do
53:13we
53:13apply
53:14it
53:14in
53:14larger
53:14scales?
53:15In
53:16the
53:16more
53:16political
53:16sense,
53:17we
53:17see
53:17that
53:18politicians
53:19are
53:19actually
53:20very
53:20good
53:21at
53:21weaponizing
53:22and using
53:22these
53:23values
53:24to
53:25further
53:25their
53:25campaigns.
53:26We
53:26see
53:27Filipino
53:27mythology
53:28played
53:28out
53:28in
53:29national
53:30politics.
53:31Why
53:31do
53:31we
53:32call,
53:32for
53:32example,
53:33we
53:33call
53:33the
53:33former
53:34president
53:34Tatay?
53:35What is
53:36that?
53:37That's
53:37a
53:37Filipino
53:38value.
53:38When
53:39we
53:39talk
53:39about
53:39unity,
53:40we're
53:40also
53:40talking
53:40about
53:41which
53:42is
53:42also
53:42a
53:42Filipino
53:43value.
53:43So
53:44how
53:44are
53:44they
53:44applied?
53:45You
53:45go
53:45back
53:45to
53:46EDSA
53:46and
53:46you
53:46look
53:47at
53:47how
53:48we
53:48treat
53:48women
53:49in
53:49so
53:49on.
53:50All
53:51these
53:51concepts,
53:52ideas,
53:52values are
53:53used on
53:53a political
53:54level.
53:55So
53:56when we
53:57say
53:57they're
53:57useless
53:58now,
53:58I don't
53:58think so.
53:59We
53:59say
53:59that
53:59they're
54:00toxic
54:00now,
54:00I don't
54:00think
54:01so.
54:01Because
54:01we're
54:02seeing
54:02it
54:02being
54:03used.
54:04Now
54:04the
54:04question
54:04is
54:04how
54:04do
54:04we
54:05use
54:05it
54:05properly?
54:06How
54:06do
54:06we
54:06use
54:06it
54:06in
54:07a
54:07way
54:07that's
54:07actually
54:07helpful?
54:08And
54:08we
54:08see
54:09this
54:09in
54:09everyday
54:10people
54:10when
54:10they
54:10do
54:11things
54:11like
54:19we
54:20see
54:20this
54:21in
54:21everyday
54:21Filipinos.
54:22We
54:22see
54:23this
54:23when
54:23Filipinos
54:23want
54:24to
54:25talk
54:25to
54:25their
54:26families
54:26abroad.
54:27When
54:27families
54:28abroad,
54:28send
54:29money
54:29back
54:29to
54:29the
54:29Philippines
54:30helping
54:30their
54:30families
54:31here.
54:32Yung
54:32kaginhawaan
54:33ng
54:33individual
54:33ay
54:33hindi
54:34lang
54:34individual.
54:35Naka
54:35angkla
54:36siya
54:36sa
54:36kapwa
54:37ko.
54:38If
54:38my
54:38family
54:39is
54:39suffering,
54:40paano
54:40ako
54:40magkakaroon
54:41ng
54:41kaginhawaan?
54:42I
54:42am
54:42tied
54:43to
54:43my
54:43family.
54:44I
54:44care
54:44about
54:44my
54:45family.
54:45When
54:46it's
54:46weaponized,
54:47we have
54:47to ask
54:47the
54:47question,
54:48is
54:48it
54:48really
54:49makakapwa
54:50or is
54:51it
54:51something
54:51that
54:51we're
54:52doing
54:52to
54:53push
54:54people
54:54down?
54:56Good
54:56advice.
54:57It
54:57sounds
54:57promising
54:58as
54:58well.
54:59Thank
54:59you
54:59for
54:59the
54:59insights.
55:00It's
55:00been
55:00a
55:00great
55:01conversation.
55:02Carl
55:02Lauren
55:03Cervantes,
55:04trailblazing
55:04founder of
55:05SICO
55:05Diwa on
55:06various
55:07online
55:07platforms.
55:08Thank
55:08you.
55:10Thank
55:12you.
55:13Thank
55:14you,
55:14podmates
55:14for
55:14listening
55:15and
55:15watching
55:15until
55:16the
55:16very
55:16end
55:17of
55:17this
55:17podcast.
55:18Alam
55:18nyo na,
55:19nakakatalino
55:19ang
55:20mahabang
55:20attention span.
55:21Don't forget
55:22to like,
55:22subscribe,
55:23and binge
55:23watch our
55:24videos for
55:24more.
55:26See you
55:26on the
55:26next pod.
55:27Mabuhay
55:28kayo
55:28at
55:28ingat
55:29lagi.