- 2 hours ago
Lena Dunham could be deemed the ultimate millennial role model. After producing, writing, and starring in her film breakthrough, Tiny Furniture, co-creating a groundbreaking TV series, and penning a riveting coming-of-age memoir, her 20s were all about success and the spotlight. But now as Dunham embarks on a new decade, she (and her millions of fans) are asking: So, what's next? Listen on as Lena contemplates the path ahead, ushering in a new HBO show, Camping, exploring life as a single woman, and navigating the powerâand occasional painâof social media.
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00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear. Lena Dunham has been called a lot of things. Visionary, groundbreaking,
00:33outspoken, shameless. In her young career, she's been praised as a creative innovator and a multi-hyphenate
00:39mogul. She's been championed for her activism and called out for her privilege. Lena blasted into
00:45the zeitgeist at just 23, and she's been making headlines ever since. Whether it's for her work,
00:51her tweets, her political causes, her body, even her dog, she's a polarizing figure, no doubt. And
00:58among other things, Lena has become a master of the public apology. But after 10 years in the spotlight,
01:04Lena remains unapologetically herself. Lena's debut film, Tiny Furniture, was the breakout success of
01:112010. And in 2011, she created Girls with producing partner Jenny Connor. With its brutally honest and
01:18intimate look at the lives of its four female leads, the show incited a radical shift in pop
01:24culture depictions of young womanhood, and cemented Lena's status as a bona fide hitmaker.
01:29A year after that, she wrote the best-selling essay collection, Not That Kind of Girl. And in 2015,
01:36Lena and Jenny founded Lenny Letter, a digital outlet for feminist writing, community,
01:40and artwork. By the time Girls ended in 2017, the duo had launched a book imprint too,
01:47and their production company, A Casual Romance. Lena was working nonstop, but she was also working
01:53through pain. She was diagnosed with endometriosis in 2011, and went through numerous surgeries before
02:00ultimately having a hysterectomy. Lena chose to share her medical journey publicly, both in her writing
02:06and on her no-holds-barred Instagram account. Fans praised Lena for being so open and unfiltered,
02:13literally and figuratively. And that's really been at the root of her ethos, regardless of public
02:19reaction, which when it comes to Lena is always a given. Over the years, Lena's been censured for
02:25things she's said or written, or the body parts she refuses to hide. She pays no mind to the body
02:31shamers. But when criticism comes from her own audience, Lena takes it to heart. She's learned
02:37a lot about what it means to be white, wealthy, cisgendered, and famous. She's as outspoken as
02:44ever. But now, Lena says, she prefers to listen first. There's no question, 2018 has been a year
02:51of great change. Lena ended her long-term relationship with musician Jack Antonoff, as well as her work-wife
02:57partnership with Jenny Connor. Their final series as producing partners, Camping, debuts this October.
03:03Lena remains close friends with both, but she's also eager to strike out on her own. And so are we.
03:09Given everything she's accomplished already, it's hard to say what may be in the works or on the horizon.
03:15But one thing's pretty much certain, whatever Lena Dunham does, we'll all be watching.
03:39Lena Dunham, thank you so much for being a guest on UnStyle today.
03:44It's so exciting to have you here.
03:46It's an honor, Christine.
03:47I wanted to go back a little bit, if you're open to it, and talk about Tiny Furniture.
03:51Yeah. I just realized it's been exactly nine years since I shot that movie, like starting at the
03:56beginning of November. I started shooting at the beginning of November in 2009. So it's been,
04:02yeah.
04:02I love that movie. And I recently rewatched it in preparation to see you. I remember seeing Tiny
04:07Furniture in the theater, you know, by the Joyce Theater in Chelsea, or is it like that movie theater
04:12right there?
04:12Yeah.
04:13It was like during the day, and it was like half full. And I remember thinking, like,
04:18there was some kind of profound turning point with that movie coming out, because I didn't know who
04:22you were. And I don't, I guess at that point, nobody did, or not that many people did. That
04:27movie, having watched it recently, it's really, there's something so relevant about it right now.
04:33Tell me a little bit about like making it, and also the relationship with your mother,
04:38because I think that she sort of factors in. So, and I've read some interviews with you about your
04:43relationship with your mom, and the fact that that movie was almost a love letter to your mother.
04:47Yeah, well, it's funny. The other day, I was saying to somebody, my mom's always been so
04:50insistent that the character that I wrote in Tiny Furniture wasn't her. Like, she was like,
04:55that wasn't me. You were asking me to do something really different than me. And she's right.
04:59But it was also like, it was the closest thing I could do to approximating her. Like,
05:03maybe some of her was lost in translation, or who she feels she is. But yeah, when I wrote Tiny
05:09Furniture, I wrote it when I was 23. I was still living with my parents. I stayed living with
05:13them basically till I was 26. And it was complicated. Like, you have that thing,
05:18you're soon to know it with a daughter, which is like, you have that thing where you love your
05:23mom, and you're obsessed with your mom, and you appreciate your mom, but you also want distance
05:27from your mom, and you want to resist, live in some sort of opposition to your mom. And it was
05:32just a
05:33very, very, very complicated period of time that I tried as best as I could to capture in that movie.
05:41And in a lot of ways, like that movie was also what changed my relationship with my mom,
05:46because it got me a job, it got me out of the house, it started my career, then my career
05:51had
05:52such a, you know, a complex effect on my family as any young person growing into themselves does.
05:58But maybe it's like highlighted when you're public, and you're sharing aspects of your private life
06:03publicly. And so I feel like now my relationship to my parents, but specifically my mother is like
06:09really coming back into focus. Like I'm just starting to think about how to tell stories
06:15about my family again, only this way, this time in a way that's maybe a little bit less invasive to
06:21them.
06:21So how did you know how to how to make tiny furniture? Because that's another thing that I find
06:25kind of remarkable. It's a perfect story. I mean, in terms of structurally,
06:29well, that's amazing of you to say it was such a weird accident, that movie in a way like,
06:34how did I know? Well, the fact is, is I surrounded myself with really smart filmmakers. I've written
06:39from my producer, Alicia Vancouver, who's still one of my best friends, my other producer,
06:43Kyle Martin, who I've just worked with on an animated film that he's producing, and Jodie
06:48Lee Lipes, my cinematographer, and Lance Edmonds, my ender. Like they were just a bunch of
06:52really, like, they had all gone to film school, and they knew the rules. And so I wrote this
06:57script, and I had a sense of what I wanted it to feel like, and I cast it, but they
07:01were
07:01like, they like, knew how to make things. And so in a way, like, I mean, one of our biggest
07:08jobs
07:09as filmmakers is to just surround ourselves with people who kind of know how to do their jobs better
07:13than we do. And so that was a big part of it. And then also, it's like, you know, I'm
07:18sure you found
07:18this when you started your company. It's like, sometimes you benefit from the things you don't
07:22know.
07:22Oh, 100%.
07:24Because you're not following any rules.
07:26You don't always know it in the moment, though.
07:28No, in the moment, it feels terrifying. And you're like, everybody went to some class except
07:32me. But like, and it's horrible, horrible.
07:36No, but I think that that's like a part of becoming good at what you do is having to consistently
07:42be vulnerable. So I want to talk a little bit about like, where you are in your life right
07:47now. You have, you had two pretty significant relationships, I wouldn't say pretty, very significant
07:52relationships that came to an end. And you're sort of like at the beginning of a lot of new
07:57things. You have a new show coming out.
07:58Yeah, October 14th is when we premiere.
08:00October 14th, camping on HBO. But tell me about, I think the partnership with Jenny and
08:06just the fact that, you know, you guys started as business partners and obviously developed
08:12such a deep sisterhood and friendship over the years that I think so many of us really
08:16admired, you know, observing and seeing all the incredible things that you made and all
08:20the different artists that you supported and just the different initiatives that you
08:24developed together was really, was really remarkable. But how have you been feeling since those two
08:31things have kind of been concluding and you're at the beginning of some new things?
08:35You know, it's a really complicated time. I mean, I think all of us know that change is
08:42equally magical and terrifying. So you can wake up in the morning feeling excited about the world
08:48of possibility available to you. And by evening, you're like shaking in your boots because it just
08:53feels like too much. Like I go through so many phases just throughout any given day
08:59emotionally. And I'm very connected to, I mean, I'm not, right now I don't feel like there's,
09:06there's moments in our lives where we're just like sort of, you know, in the flow of our day
09:09and busy, busy, busy. And, you know, just, we just care about like, you know, getting to our meeting
09:14and getting to our yoga class and getting to our dinner or whatever. Like, I mean, I've never gotten
09:18to a yoga class, but I just am sort of like trying to describe, there's the, there's the thing where
09:23you're like in your routine and then there's this thing where you're deeply in your feelings as the
09:28kids say. And like, that's more where I've been. Like, I do other things, but the primary activity
09:34of every day for me is just sort of like, like feeling a lot of different stuff. And, um,
09:40it's been hard. It's been complicated. I mean, you know, Jenny and I had, it was the most significant
09:49relationship of my adult life. It was incredibly meaningful and profound. And I think you can know
09:55that, you know, you need to keep moving and, and, and work in a different way and it can still
10:03be very
10:03sad. And I never want to, you know, speak for her, but I just know that that's a decision that
10:08was
10:08made with like a lot of love and a lot of connection. And I just, you know, I always want
10:14to, I always want to consider her and the work that we've done together will always, you know.
10:19Did you learn a lot from her?
10:20Yeah. She's like, I, she like taught me how to be an adult. Like she's the person who was like,
10:25you know, you need to like, you know, not like buy 72 things at Urban Outfitters, then throw them
10:31away. Just like buy a nice pair of jeans. She was like, go get, here's how you deal with,
10:36like wash your, such a good friend, wash your face. Like, you know, here's how you deal with,
10:43uh, you know, I mean, she taught me a lot about when I was going through the typical struggles of
10:47with in my twenties with my friends, she taught me a lot about dealing with that. She taught me a
10:51lot
10:51about engaging the professional realm. I never really had a real job without her. And so it's,
11:00unless you count like, you know, being a babysitter. So, so yes, it's, it's huge and it's emotional and
11:06um, but I'm really proud of the work that we did together on the show. And she did such an
11:11amazing
11:11job as a director and, you know, well, it'll, these things always, they move through their
11:18different iterations and then you find the one that's the most comfortable.
11:22What do you think she learned from you?
11:25Oh, I think that's for her to say. I mean, she's, she's been, she was always very, you know,
11:32kind, um, to me and made me feel like I was an equal and part of things, which I'll always
11:38be
11:38grateful for.
11:41So let's talk about social media.
11:43Oh, brother.
11:45Well, you have a really sort of, I don't want to call it complicated, but I would say complex
11:50relationship with social media.
11:51Yeah. Complex is a great way of putting it.
11:53And I think that it's been really satisfying to, to follow you lately because I feel like
11:59you've kind of taken it to another level in terms of just sharing just different things that you're
12:05thinking about and kind of ruminating over and just processing really, and just really kind of
12:10sharing that process with, with your audience. But it's actually really beautiful to see the
12:15comments that you inspire and incite specifically on Instagram. I'm not as, I don't, I don't do as
12:21much digging on Twitter. It's a little-
12:23Twitter's a rougher scene, I think. I wouldn't say there's much of a, like, as much, like there's
12:27not as much of like a angry far right male contingent on Instagram, at least not one that I think
12:32there may be more fringe there. Like I would say Instagram is just a generally more positive
12:37community that, and on just like a tech level, it seems to me like that the controls are better
12:42handled and that they're, whatever the controls and the algorithms are, like, they're just keeping
12:47people safer. There's been a lot of conversation about the fact that like women, LGBTQ people,
12:52people of color are not kept safe by Twitter. Twitter is like not a platform that's designed to
12:58engender like constructive conversation.
13:01It's a lot of hacking now too, which is really scary. I mean, there are some writers on our team
13:07that have been dealing with that as well. And it's kind of, you know, it's kind of anarchy.
13:11But let's talk about the post particularly that I cried and cried over. And it wasn't even,
13:18it wasn't a sad post. It was just a really beautiful post. And I think that it was a
13:21revelation for so many, not even just women, but people when you, when you posted the pictures
13:26of you side by side.
13:28And the weight gain picture.
13:31Well, just the weight variation, you know, that's a better way of putting it weight variation.
13:34It was a weight variation. And, you know, because girls is such an important show to me and so
13:40many people that I know. And I remember how under the microscope you were when that was
13:44really, you know, at its height and how much pressure that, it really got me to thinking
13:49about what your life must've been like at that time when you were, you know, 135 pounds or
13:54whatever it was that was on the left. And just how you kind of gave some context as to what
14:00it felt like to be here right now.
14:01Yeah. You know, it was interesting. Like that was actually when I lost all the weight was right
14:05after girls wrapped. And I was really unsure about who I was. Like I just didn't, girls had so defined
14:14my identity for my entire twenties. I had turned 30. I was super sick physically. I had not yet gotten
14:19a hysterectomy, but I was in a lot of pain. I was in constant pain. And I was sort of
14:23like, okay,
14:24I know that I was allowed to be this specific size for girls and to play this character, but now
14:29I'm
14:29like going to go out into the world and have a career. And I sort of like equated being an
14:33adult
14:33with like getting it together and getting it together with like stopping eating food.
14:38And it was crazy because, you know, the weight, I had been in the hospital in the summer of 2016,
14:45and then I'd gotten C. diff, which is like a hospital infection. That's basically just like
14:49the worst. I mean, I hate this word. I'm sorry to say it, but it's just like the worst diarrhea
14:53you've ever had. Like just like I was living, literally living off Pedialyte and rice and
14:59like probiotics. Like it was repulsive. And then suddenly my appetite went away. The weight
15:03started to fall off. And then even if people know you as like a person who's, you know,
15:09engaged in a positive relationship with your body, the affirmation you get when you start
15:14to lose weight is like, even if you've worked really, really, really hard to change your
15:19relationship to that stuff, suddenly you're getting this kind of affirmation that like, at least
15:24for me, I didn't realize that I'd probably always low-key dreamed of. And then I was
15:30like, okay, well, that's working. I guess I'm going to continue to like, you know, eat
15:33once every three days. And it was like-
15:36And have diarrhea.
15:37And have diarrhea. And I felt so bad. And it was weird because I would look in the mirror
15:43and I would like take these pictures of myself because I was like, well, I guess that's what
15:47you do when you weigh 135 pounds.
15:49I felt so disembodied and strange and like, and it wasn't about the weight. It was about
15:55just not being in my form. Like I look back, there's this picture that I've never shared,
16:01but it's like, I'm literally, I'm looking in the mirror and it's like my underwear are
16:06baggy. Like what you have to do to like have baggy underwear. And it's like, there's something
16:11that's like, so my like underwear baggy and like my hair is like thin and I just look
16:17sad. And, but there's also a part of you that looks at that picture and it actually
16:24was a huge wake up call for me because I used to spend so much time projecting onto thin women.
16:31Like I would project that they were happy. I would project that they were secure. I would
16:36project that they got the kind of attention that they wanted. I would project that they
16:39were successful. I would project that they felt more energized. Like I just, everything
16:43I didn't feel, I was, I was convinced that they did. And the thing I guess I've really
16:48realized in the last couple of years, especially as I've seen other people project onto me,
16:54like, okay, because you have a successful career in entertainment, because you're financially
16:59secure, because you, you know, at one point, because you date a guy who's a rockstar, whatever,
17:03like people projecting a certain level of comfort onto me that I didn't have. Like, I feel
17:08like the big revelation. I was just texting with my best friend, Scotty today. And I just
17:12said to her, it's so hard for everyone. It's just so hard for everyone. And like, that doesn't
17:21mean it's not beautiful and great, but it's like, I don't know anyone where if you crack,
17:26the only people I know who aren't struggling mightily are people who have struggled mightily
17:31in the past and have found some way to some new way to be, to be like people who have
17:39like a high
17:39spiritual program, because they are working with their pain. But I don't know anyone who just like
17:46came in gangbusters to the world and is enjoying it. Like, that's just not how it works.
17:52No. And those people that you're talking about, like have, have consistently been through a long
17:58and sort of difficult, sometimes difficult. I don't want to make assumptions path to getting
18:02to that place of, of, I don't want to say consciousness, but awareness, you know, of who
18:08they are and like what sort of works for them. It's really takes time. And I feel like I'm on
18:14that. I feel like I'm for the first time in my life can say I'm on that path. It's not
18:18happening,
18:19but it's like, you know, I'm, I'm working on it. And I got up on Thursday morning, I knew I
18:25had this
18:25like week of press coming up and I wanted to sing nice. So my friend from college who I hadn't
18:29seen
18:29in a couple of years, he's like a, he's a really smart installation artist who literally lives in
18:35like a tiny electricity free cabin on the east side of Los Angeles. And I was, he was like, we
18:40haven't hung out in a while. What should we do? And I was like, should we go watch the sunrise?
18:44So
18:44like I wake up at like consistently 11 every morning. I set my alarm for 345 in the morning,
18:50like put my fleece on, got in an Uber, went over to his house. Yeah, it was insane. Like put
18:57an,
18:58got a fleece on, put, went over to his house. He had like a thermos of coffee. We got in
19:01his car.
19:02We drove to the top of a mountain. We watched the sunrise. And in my head, I was just like,
19:07this is insane, but it's like, I have to do stuff like this just to jog myself out of
19:15whatever this, whatever this stasis, this like, this like pain body is.
19:21I love that. How do you feel about talking about health and all that stuff?
19:26It's really important to me. It's really like, why go through it if you can't talk about it?
19:30I know. I think that we have something in common. We've, you know, we've been open about our,
19:35our journey and our experiences, you know, sort of struggling with our bodies and,
19:41and kind of sort of wrestling, you know, this relationship, you know, that we have with
19:46ourselves. And, you know, for me for a long time, I, I couldn't get successfully pregnant.
19:52I kept getting pregnant and having a lot of miscarriages and, and it went on for a decade
19:56and, you know, just beating myself up and just feeling like, you know, my body doesn't work the
20:00way it's supposed to. And, and you simultaneously were, you know, having in some periods of your life
20:06when everything seemed so perfect for you because you were on top of the world and girls was like
20:11the most successful show on the planet and you weighed 135 pounds. And, um, and I think you were
20:19struggling with endometriosis and how do you feel about the thing that kind of came to me that I
20:27wasn't expecting was just all the people that came forward and emailed me and texted me and DM'd me
20:35and commented on social media about the fact that they were in the very same situation, in some cases,
20:41much worse than mine. And I, for the first time felt so much less alone in my, in, in just
20:48like this,
20:49the sadness and also just this, this kind of hopelessness that you get into because you just
20:55feel like it's never going to be better. It's never going to change. But did you feel like at
21:00a certain point when you were sharing your process, especially like sort of this path towards having
21:04a hysterectomy that you were going to kind of represent something for, for women?
21:11I think I just hoped I could be helpful in some way. I realized I felt so alone in the
21:21experience.
21:21I felt so alone because for a while I didn't know why I felt so bad.
21:25I didn't have a diagnosis or when I did have a diagnosis, I didn't think it was enough. I didn't
21:29think it was enough of a reason to feel as bad as I did because I knew that people had
21:33endometriosis,
21:34but I didn't know that it could range. So I knew other women who had endometriosis,
21:38but I didn't know anyone who had it the way that I had it. So I thought, okay, there's something
21:42wrong
21:42with me because I can't deal with it. It's like everybody else. And what, and I was also like always
21:48the person who would like get a cold and be like, I can't come to work. I feel totaled. And
21:52other people
21:53were like coming to work and taking a Sudafed. But what I didn't realize was my body was so,
21:57nobody told me that endometriosis also has an autoimmune component. So when I would get a cold,
22:02It wiped you out.
22:03It wiped me out. And, or when I would one, when I would get inflammation in one spot,
22:07everything else would act up or the fact that endometriosis, no one ever told me that it had
22:12full body ramifications, that it could have an effect on your, you know, that it could cause muscular
22:17pain, that it could cause headaches. Like I just didn't have any kind of information. And I never
22:22read a story that was like mine. And it wasn't until I started finding other women, really Instagram
22:30actually, it was like how I made connections with other women who were dealing with what I was dealing
22:36with, who normalized it a little bit for me because I was so scared and lonely and confused and worried
22:44that it was gonna, you know, I thought like, is this gonna ruin my life? Am I never gonna be
22:48able to work
22:49again? Or I didn't understand like, like now I'm 10 months out from my hysterectomy, almost 11. And, or yeah,
22:55just 11. And it's like, it really is, next Monday, it'll be 11 months since I had it. And it's
23:02like, I still
23:02don't feel normal. Like my body is still reconfiguring itself. But like, you know, we hear all these stories
23:08about people like, especially in Hollywood, it's like, I got a laparoscopic procedure and I was back at work
23:11five days later, like, I just didn't know how any of it was supposed to work. And everybody is like,
23:17it's like
23:17such a badge of honor for everybody. Like, hey, I had my baby. And five minutes later, I was answering
23:21my emails.
23:22Like, it's like,
23:23I'm sorry. It's really funny, though, because you're right. Everyone's like, or a lot of people are really like that.
23:29Well, in our business, everyone's like, yeah, I took a good solid two weeks after I had the baby. And
23:34I was like,
23:35I can't, that's okay, do anything. It's like, I can, I have to take like 10 minutes after I pee
23:41just to collect myself. So
23:43it's like, I had to really, really wrestle a lot with like conceptions of myself. Like, like, I had to,
23:51like, be like,
23:52okay, my worth is not linked up to like, you know, my ability to make it to every single appointment.
23:59My worth is not like
24:00linked up to even, it can't even be linked up to my ability to leave the house every day, because
24:04some
24:04days I can't. And that has to be okay, too. And you have to form a community of people
24:11who understand that, like, the way you show love might be different. Like, like, I have to have
24:15friends who basically understand that, like, whether I make it to their birthday party or not is not an
24:21indicator of how much I love them. And that, like, that, like, the way I'm able to be there for
24:26them
24:26is different than the way that other people might be able to be there for them. But it took me
24:30time. And I'm still working on not promising that I can do what other people can do. Because like,
24:38every single one of us has different abilities and different circumstances and different strengths.
24:43And like, that has to be okay. I think that's something that so many of us who have been through
24:48really difficult, you know, health crises, or just, you know, kind of emotional transformations.
24:55It's like the friends that really are there for you, the ones that just let you be who you are,
24:59and are really, not just supportive, but don't make you feel like you're a freak, and that you
25:06are, it's all in your head. Because I think that when, when I was going through my stuff,
25:12there were some friends that were just like, you know what, maybe you're not going to be a mother,
25:15and that's okay. And that was not like the mindset that I needed to be in.
25:19No. And I think that, you know, people mean well, and I'm sure that people in your life certainly
25:26meant well, too. But I think that it is sort of this moment of clarity and a certain maturity that
25:32comes when you realize that you have to really separate yourself from other people's stuff.
25:36Yeah. And it was really important to me, the most important quality in friends for me,
25:43besides, you know, them being funny and great and whatever, is like my friends who let me
25:48grieve after my hysterectomy, or who understood that one day I might be like, I'm really glad I
25:54did that. It was a really good choice. I'm so grateful to have control over my body. And then
25:58two days later, I might be really sad again. You know, and that like, that's not a process that's
26:02going to like end when after six months, or 12 months, or it may not end for two years. Like,
26:09I just don't know. And the people who let it be, who understand that like grieving and coming to
26:16terms with big emotional decisions in life, like, it's not always just like a clear upward trajectory,
26:22like things are, it's just really complicated. And I feel so lucky. That's one of the reasons I feel
26:27so lucky for my family, my sibling, and my parents, like, they understand, and they're there no matter
26:36what, like, I was having a really hard health day on Saturday. I was really like, I think a lot
26:42of
26:42women were really activated by this really hard week and by the Kavanaugh hearings. And I know a lot
26:49of women who I know who have a history of trauma felt extremely re-traumatized. And women I know who
26:58have chronic illness felt like they were flared and activated by it. And so I needed to fly to New
27:06York
27:06for press and my body was just in revolt. And I was on the airplane and basically every one of
27:14my
27:14systems that gets like, I had a migraine and my muscles hurt and my, and I had ovarian pain. And
27:22I
27:22was texting with my parents. I was on like the go-go Wi-Fi and I just texted my parents
27:26and I was
27:26like, this is a really hard flight and I'm just going to need you guys to be here this entire
27:31time
27:32if I need you. And so like every like 30 minutes, I'd be like, what are you guys doing? And
27:35they'd be
27:35like, we're watching TV. Then I'd be like, what are you doing? And they're like, we're still watching TV.
27:38But like, it was just, I looked back on the text and I'm like so surprised they didn't have me
27:43committed. Like at one point in the, in, I was texting my mom and I was like, I just pray
27:47that this
27:48flight lands and that I'm able to hold your hand again someday. And they were like, okay,
27:51calm down. But it was so nice to know that like, they were in it with you. They were in
27:57it with me.
27:58And then today, make it a big deal. No. And then today when I was okay and able to go
28:02do press,
28:02they were okay with that too. Like what a nice thing. No, that's a beautiful thing.
28:16The Unstyled podcast is made possible by Refinery29 and Aerie, your body positive go-to
28:21for intimates and loungewear. You know, exactly what you'd want to wear while binge listening
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28:32that make you feel confident, strong, and always the real you in your own style.
28:54So I want to talk about camping. Yeah. I think that first of all, Jennifer Garner stars in this,
29:00in this new show and she's a really peculiar character. And she really is. But I think that
29:06there's something really appealing about somebody that wants so badly for everyone to sort of fall
29:13in line and have fun on their watch. And everyone is just like groaning in the background and just
29:19can't like take it. Oh my God. They're so annoyed. We all know somebody like that. And in some cases,
29:25I've been that person. Me too. A hundred percent. We all know somebody like that. And then what's kind
29:29of great also is that like, we all know someone like that and we complain about them, but we're also
29:34always like really scared to defy them. Like, like, like the Jennifer Garner character, like everyone's
29:39complaining about her, but they're not just going like, no, like we're all too scared to say no to
29:44that person in a way. I know I am. She's really scary. Yeah. I mean, I hate enforced fun more
29:51than
29:51anything in the world. Like, like if I go on a trip and I'm handed like, like anytime. An itinerary?
29:57It's disgusting. Like that's one of the reasons I don't do like, you know how like in our,
30:01in our business, there will be like retreats where like people go to like, you know, there
30:06would be like a, a retreat for thinkers or whatever, you know? Yes. I, I a hundred percent
30:12know, but I can't do one because if there's an itinerary, like it's best to just assume
30:17that like, I'll make it to one of the things. It's like, choose the one you need me to be
30:22at. Cause the rest of these aren't going to happen. Yeah. I don't really consider myself
30:25much of a joiner too. I actually put on my, I didn't want to have a baby shower and, and,
30:29and a friend of mine told me, you're going to end up having a baby shower. Everyone's
30:32going to pressure you into doing it. I'm like, no, they're not. I'm like 49 years old. I'm
30:35like, no one's going to tell me what to do. And I couldn't believe like the amount of
30:41investment people had made. And after I guess my process having a baby shower, but I was like,
30:46it's going to be the most un baby shower baby. And they were like, occasionally I get these
30:49emails. You want to have a game? I was like, no, I'm not wearing a hat. I'm not doing any
30:53of
30:53those things. I keep getting invited to game nights. And my thing about game night is like,
30:58it always sounds like maybe this will be the time, but like, no, it's just, it's just a
31:05no. I like, like, it's not the time. Yeah. It's not the time. But what appeals to you about,
31:13about Jennifer Garner's character and why did you want to make this movie? You adapted it from,
31:17um, Jenny and I adapted this from a British show by Julia Davis. Who's like, if you haven't seen
31:21her work, she made different shows, Nighty Night, Hunter B, Human Remains. She's a new
31:27show coming out called Sally Forever. She's the most brilliant weirdo in the world. And, um,
31:33we loved it just as a world for people to explore. And like, it's such a, like the woods are
31:41such a
31:42kooky and joyful location for, um, something like this. But, and, but I think what was appealing to
31:49me about, you know, there were definitely people who were like, who have watched or,
31:53you know, read in early iteration or watched who've been like, this character's too much.
31:57She's too much. Like you can't, we were, we were always were like told Hannah was an unlikable
32:04central force on girls. And this was like, makes Hannah look like she's like Mary Tyler Moore.
32:08Like this is a whole other level of thing, which is part of why it's appealing to me. And also
32:13the idea of this person who's like, who's like narcissism extends to like needing to corral
32:20everyone around them. And then they think because they're corralling everyone around them that they're
32:24like incredibly generous. Yeah. Like it's my favorite type of person, the one who's like,
32:30I give and I give and I give and what do I get back for it? It's like anyone who's
32:34saying that
32:34isn't actually giving. I think I've said that maybe, maybe all said like, I just, I just need to be
32:40honest. I feel like, and throughout this sort of course of my life, I may have been one of those
32:44people. I recently overheard somebody saying, what did she say? It was amazing. I just overheard
32:51someone at a group function talking about how she loves too much and it's just so hard for her
32:59because she loves too much. And I like was saying, I hope this woman doesn't know that I'm literally
33:03taking notes on her right now. The idea that it's so hard for you because you just love too much
33:07is
33:07my favorite. That should be on a t-shirt. Yeah. I would buy that. I know. I love too much.
33:13Me too.
33:14I love too much. Me too. So you're just at the beginning of this deck of like what has been
33:20my
33:20favorite decade, the like 30 to 40. I'm so excited. I'm honestly so excited. It's, it's, I mean, I'm so
33:28happy where I am in my life right now, but there's just something so new and there's a certain kind
33:33of
33:33strength that I think, um, I had when I, when I was in my thirties and a sort of courage
33:40that I
33:40didn't have when I was younger. I felt a lot more fearful about not taking the sort of, you know,
33:48the, the sort of expected path. But thirties was just like, I mean, um, my thirties to forties
33:54just felt like I can do anything and it doesn't matter if I fuck it up. I'm just going to
33:58do anything.
33:59So what do you want to do in the, in the years to come? You kind of have an open
34:03slate right now.
34:04I do. You know, I'm working on a bunch of stuff sort of, but none of what's kind of nice
34:10is I'm
34:10working on a bunch of stuff that's all kind of in its infancy. Um, really I want to focus on
34:14writing.
34:15Like, I think that there was a lot of moments in my twenties where like, I didn't know what to
34:21do
34:21with the eyes that were on me. And so I thought my job was to be like, you know, obviously
34:26it's a very
34:26important moment to be politically engaged, but I thought my job was to be like, you know,
34:30the loudest, most busy, most active, most present, most noisy, most feminist, most, most, most. And
34:37it's like, there were amazing things that came out of all of it, but there was also a cost to
34:42me
34:42personally and I didn't do it all well all the time. And so now I'm really trying to focus on
34:48writing
34:49and being a constructive member of my community. And my community is to me something now smaller than
34:55what it was before. Like it used to be like, I thought my job was like to be, you know,
35:01like a,
35:01an important voice for women in Hollywood, an important voice for, you know, body positive,
35:06important voice for this in the world. And now I'm like, that's all great, but really I just want
35:10to be like a solid, strong, connected friend, a good daughter, a loving sibling and, and a writer and a
35:18writer. That's all I, that's all I dream of. I think that that's, and I want to grow back the
35:23hairs
35:24that I lost when I was, when I had my hysterectomy, when all my hair shocked out of my head.
35:29Those are
35:30my true goals.
35:30Because of a surgery?
35:32Yeah. Has that ever happened to you?
35:33Oh yeah. No, you were talking, when you were talking about laparoscopic surgery, I had two
35:36of them and literally it happened like spontaneously two months later, all of a sudden it was just
35:40like.
35:41No, it was crazy. My hair all just like fell out of my head and I couldn't believe it. It's
35:44like you hear things like that and you're like, that's not going to happen to me. And like.
35:47No, it totally happens to you.
35:49It happened to me. And then I started eating those sugar bear hair vitamins that the Kardashians were
35:53hacking, hawking, which is like a psychotic thing to do to be like, I'm just going to
35:58continue to behave exactly the way of behaving, but start eating a gummy bear every day and
36:02my hair is going to grow back. But.
36:04I had a paintbrush actually growing out of my like center part for like a while. It was
36:08like a little, it was like a little, it was like a, like, what do you call it? A mohawk
36:12that was growing out of my part because of all the new hair that was growing.
36:15Well, look at your beautiful hair now. You're giving me inspiration and hope.
36:19You're very kind.
36:20Also, you have that nice thing, like, you know, when someone's pregnant, like, they're
36:24like, like, skin's really glowy and their mouth's really full and like, you're having
36:27all that, like, you're all the good things that are promised to us.
36:32Thank you. It's called swelling. You should see my ankles. I know. I know. Thank you for
36:38that. Lena Dunham. It's such a pleasure to have you on Style today.
36:41It's an honor to be here with you.
36:42Thank you for coming.
36:44I adore you.
36:45I adore you back. And for the audience who can't see, her dress is very chic. Bye.
36:59I hope you're inspired after hearing Lena's story. For even more Unstyled extras, check
37:05out Refinery29 or my Instagram at Christine Barbrick. You can also join the conversation
37:10using the hashtag Unstyled across your social media. And of course, we'd be infinitely grateful
37:16if you'd please subscribe to the Unstyled podcast on iTunes and rate us while you're there.
37:21You can head to Refinery29.com to find this episode and more and make sure to sign up for
37:26our exclusive Unstyled newsletter delivered straight to your inbox every week. Our show
37:31today was executive produced by Bridget Todd, associate produced by Rebecca Easley, and edited
37:36by Priscilla Mena. Copy support was provided by Kelsey Miller, and talent was booked by Dana Stern.
37:42Our theme music today is by the artist Koff, and we recorded Unstyled with Paul Ruist at Argo
37:48Studios. We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation with Elaria Baldwin on the future
37:54facing culture of motherhood. See you then.