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The Government has banned public servants from using the navigation app Waze, citing concerns that the app's Israeli legal jurisdiction and the potential exposure of sensitive location data. Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim has also raised the possibility of a nationwide ban, and has encouraged Malaysians to switch to alternative navigation apps. Waze, however, has rejected allegations that it collects sensitive government information or that it allows users’ personal data to be exploited. What are the potential security risks and policy implications of this directive? On this episode of #Consider This Melisa Idris speaks with Farlina Said, Director of Cyber and Technology Policy at ISIS Malaysia.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:14where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. The
00:19government has banned civil servants from using the navigation app Waze, citing concerns about
00:25the app's Israeli legal jurisdiction and the potential exposure of sensitive location data.
00:31Prime Minister Ibrahim has also raised the possibility of a nationwide ban and has encouraged
00:37Malaysians to switch to alternative navigation apps. Waze however has rejected these allegations
00:43that it collects sensitive government information and that it allows users personal data to be
00:49exploited. So let's discuss this further and joining me to do that to discuss the security,
00:54the potential security risks and the potential policy implications. I have with me Farlina
01:00Syed who is the director of the Cyber and Technology Policy Program at ISIS Malaysia. Farlina, it's good
01:06to have you back on the show. Thank you so much for joining me. So the government says that Waze's
01:11Israeli incorporation and the legal jurisdiction create a security risk. What do we understand so
01:17far about the national security threat that this directive is intended to address? Thank you. Thank you so
01:27much for having me and then actually bringing up an issue that's actually taken headlines in these days.
01:33So I think there are information security and data security concerns from an app which can trace the
01:39movement and navigation of individuals. Concerns amounting the national security have actually emerged way earlier in
01:46discussions when wearable such as smart watches became popular and actually in the US around 2018.
01:52The popular running app Strava for instance could map that was actually was mapping a military basis
01:58due to its due to its usage by military personnel information and it actually gathers information that
02:06can reach the threshold of national security concerns. So I think to a certain extent when we are actually
02:13weighing the risk of a navigation app if there are personalities of interest especially if it reveals
02:21the movement of personalities of interest or if the information can actually be used to be exploited
02:28there might actually be concerns that it meets the certain threshold for national security concerns.
02:36Okay Farin I'm just wondering I mean the exact reasons have not been revealed or discussed publicly announced publicly by
02:46the government.
02:47Do you think there is a case for withholding that information? I'm guessing that you know specific intelligence
02:55will reveal kind of the security thinking behind it but do you think the public should be told
03:02or what do you think the public should be told about the perceived security threat?
03:08Yeah I think as you actually pointed out earlier some parts of the instruction is actually specifically for
03:15the civil sector and I think that actually shows the way when you're actually conducting risk
03:21assessments and thresholds you would actually try to find out which is actually the area that is most vulnerable
03:27of the ones that actually that would that would be quite critical should it be exploited so I think
03:33that's the first part when we're actually looking at either a blanket ban or we're actually looking at an
03:38approach to governing these things but I think the second thing that you mentioned is actually the exact
03:43reasoning and I believe that there have actually been statements by say our national cyber security agency
03:49as well as I think the our prime minister when when it was actually referred to one of the greatest
03:54concerns is
03:55actually about digital sovereignty in the sense that you're actually looking at information which could
04:01be managed controlled or if it is um if it is outside of government jurisdiction that may be a bit
04:07of an
04:08issue especially when you have um when you have to uh demand like the evidence or you actually have to
04:14uh streamline uh processes to for safety so having this jurisdiction in uh in other in other countries may be
04:24uh may be complicated especially if you don't have a mechanism for collaboration to actually occur
04:30so I think that's actually where we is actually in a very unique spot when we're actually thinking of
04:35where it's actually headquartered um so I think that's one part where we would actually have to
04:41consider when we are looking at the entire landscape for digital sovereignty and app that actually mean
04:47the threshold of national security conference and actually also like the types of risk assessment we're
04:53actually conducting this way okay well talk to me about uh maybe some of the challenges of the policy
04:59information so the directive only applies to government workers performing official duties um
05:06how do you think about that one of the challenges are uh in trying to i guess uh monitor compliance
05:12enforce compliance and how do we think about uh personal devices versus official duties versus official
05:19devices well what is your thinking around this yeah no this is actually an interesting space because
05:24for a while i think uh the approach uh in this entire landscape when we're actually looking at uh
05:33the first question is actually always do you actually have alternatives that you can actually
05:38consider because obviously um navigation applications have actually become part and parcel of everyone
05:43if you're actually driving a car you may be concerned that you're going to get lost so you would
05:47actually have an aggregation app on so it's actually become become almost habitual and behavioral and
05:52i think uh transitioning may be one of the challenges because some applications actually develop based on
06:00preference and popular applications obviously fit popular preferences preferences and i think you've actually
06:05um hit the nail on the head um when you actually mentioned that enforcement is actually going to be
06:10uh challenging because the civil sector is quite large and that actually leads to potential unevenness in
06:18enforcement but i think something that we can uh think about is sometimes you actually do have to think
06:24about the criticality of the information that could be exploited as well as the reason why you you would
06:30or you actually wouldn't use an application especially if there's actually other alternatives in in the market so i think
06:36uh
06:37uh it is an uh on one hand with an individual preference uh or choice if you're actually looking at
06:43general public and
06:44things like that if you're actually looking at uh the the the those who may actually be
06:50critical personalities you would actually be quite you should actually be quite concerned if
06:53you actually have an application that's actually not in your in your control
06:57i understand so so you know this this um security risk can i ask you if there are other countries
07:03who are equally as concerned about
07:06this um threat to their national security do we know if there are other countries who have
07:11banned ways because of the of where it is headquartered and the concerns around um collecting sensitive information
07:21to be told i think uh we ways i i'm not uh probably aware but i think if we were
07:28to look at the
07:29applications that is um of concern say in the u.s when it comes to tiktok for where the information
07:37is actually
07:37being uh being completed or where it's actually being processed or when if we're actually thinking of
07:44the policies in india when it comes to data localization concerns or when it comes to uh information that could
07:52not be accessed by
07:53uh the government uh there are actually a number of applications that have actually been um uh
08:01either permanently banned or temporarily banned by respective countries because they are actually
08:06trying to uh they are trying to get clarity i think on that data management um i think there was
08:14actually
08:14even a directive on whatsapp for for us in the u.s for the house of representatives for its lack
08:21of
08:21communication on data management so that's where uh different applications may actually go through
08:26this space i think something to think about is uh the fact that we are actually perhaps looking at a
08:32environment where your devices you have you have to think about uh the safety of the devices in relation
08:39to our lives and our work life as well as the personal life so to some extent uh some uh
08:46some countries
08:47do actually have policies where your devices shouldn't actually have any gps tracking or
08:51anything like that um and and that means that maybe if you actually want to order a grab in those
08:56country in a country that's considered unsafe uh you might have to get a friend or make a friend to
09:02actually order the grab for you because it might not actually be able to have it on your device itself
09:06oh wow yeah so different policies and different risk assessment okay i guess i guess yeah it will have to
09:13depend on uh the parameters of where you assess the risk level uh can i ask you so the prime
09:19minister
09:19has actually uh raised the possibility of a wider ban on ways a blanket ban for this app um but
09:27malaysia
09:27as we know um is trying to attract investment in tech data centers we've got the digital economy that
09:33we're really pushing ahead so what does this do to um business confidence especially of those tech
09:40companies because um how are they thinking about a directive like this that can come seemingly out
09:47of the blue um and what might that do to companies who may be worried about how their own technology
09:53might be assessed in the future well i think we actually have to think about uh regulations uh where
10:00malaysia has actually emerged from regulations at least since 2024 when we updated things like the pdpa
10:06when we actually introduced online safety act where we are in terms of even online safety regulations
10:13where in this current era there is actually the search for uh jurisdiction and to actually ensure
10:19that all the applications or at least the platforms that we actually have in our digital spaces um
10:25there could be a mechanism where you can uphold safety and security for the general public
10:32so i think uh in that sense when we're actually looking at this landscape one of the greatest
10:37problems is that if you have an issue because we don't have diplomatic relations with the country
10:42where it's actually headquartered uh then there would be uh there may be difficulties in actually
10:47trying to uphold uh justice or if there's actually any types of information that you need to get uh there
10:55it's quite difficult for you to actually uh get the information from a government to government approach
10:59so that's actually one of the challenges i think in this space that makes this application or this
11:04situation quite uh unique but also at the same time when we are thinking of the greater trajectory of
11:11like investments really the the uh the appetite at the moment is uh regulation jurisdiction or at least
11:18uh a greater control in terms of like uh jurisdiction okay does that come does that kind of tie back
11:26into
11:26what you were discussing around uh malaysia focusing on digital sovereignty um i'm just curious to know
11:32how how do we think about this this is an opportunity for us to develop local navigation
11:39apps and are we there yet and how much sovereignty do we want given there is a kind of a
11:46dependence on
11:47global tech yeah i think actually like like you mentioned and every sometimes all these situations
11:53uh it's an opportunity it's an opportunity for you because all of a sudden that might be uh the the
11:59market is actually there's a large player that's vacated completely and you would actually want
12:04something to actually fill out the space and it is actually a good opportunity for local players but i
12:09think also at the same time some things that we can think about is um perhaps when certain applications
12:16are developed uh they weren't actually developed with the intention of servicing the entire malaysian
12:21population for instance and i think that's actually also where it needs trial by fire because all of a
12:27sudden um when something is actually off the market quickly some the migration can happen very quickly
12:33as well and i think that's where um i think we saw this uh for instance uh an example a
12:39very age-old
12:40example is like my signature when it was actually made mandatory and then everyone completely migrated to the
12:46application which actually caused it to crash so that it uh certain things actually need trial by fire
12:53and and in that sense uh the application developers do have to orient very quickly but i think something
13:00that can be considered is that if any agency or any any party is actually thinking of developing an
13:07application maybe the thought is that there could be the possibility you're actually going to service the
13:13entire country and i think maybe that that i don't know whether that might be helpful when you actually
13:18have that that thought when you're actually developing the application um because uh because then maybe you
13:25may not you're the thieving challenges may not be as painful as it could be it can be today
13:32farina thank you so much for being on the show with me and sharing your insights always a pleasure
13:37speaking with you farina saideh from uh isis malaysia we're going to take a quick break here and consider this
13:42we'll be back with more stay tuned