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The Election Commission of India has filed an affidavit in the Supreme Court stating that all decisions concerning the Special Intensive Revision of electoral rolls were unanimous, countering allegations of unilateral action by Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your prime time destination news,
00:06newsmakers, talking points this Tuesday night. The election commission's decisions are under
00:11the scanner as they go to the Supreme Court. The EC is claiming they are unanimous, but were they
00:16really unanimous? Has the EC gone ahead and given itself a clean chit? Also among my special guests
00:23is Justice Sanjay Kishan called retired the former Supreme Court judge who's created a stir
00:30with his comments on judicial appointments. We'll tell you that on judiciary, executive ties and
00:37much more. Why he believes judges need to grow a spine. But first as always, it's time for the
00:449 headlines at 9 to 9. No end to the showdown over SIR. Congress to hold mock impeachment at the
00:52chief election commission on the chief election commissioner at Malik Arjun Khargay's residence
00:57on October 30th. Union minister JP Nanda launches a safe democracy and anarchy padhyatra in Ahmedabad.
01:08Supreme Court tells Rahul Gandhi and other petitioners to respond to the election commissioners
01:15affidavit over vote-chory pleas. In 10 days, poll body had rejected charges of CEC making unilateral
01:22decisions.
01:25Interim relief for actor Imran Khan. Bombay High Court puts Leave India order on stay till November 2nd.
01:32Imran, a US citizen, was told to leave India by October 28th for participating in the anti-SIR stir.
01:40Karnataka final electoral roll published over 1 crore. Voters deleted 8.96 lakh new voters added.
01:47Karnataka's electorate now stands at 4.55 crores.
01:52In an exclusive interview with India today, former Supreme Court Justice SK Call says caste and
02:00community equations deciding judiciary and there is a need for review for the way judges are appointed.
02:06It calls on judges to grow a spine so that the government respects them.
02:14Cyclone Arnab intensifies into a severe cyclonic storm. Andhra Pradesh braces for landfall.
02:20Wind speeds could increase to 140 kilometers per hour during landfall tomorrow.
02:2717 inmates break out of Tamil Nadu prison after faking illness and attacking the guards.
02:3213 rearrested. Nine jail staffers suspended. Opposition slams Vijay government over law and order.
02:40A cheetah cup dies after being shot with five pellets. Madhya Pradesh government orders an STF probe.
02:4619-month-old cheetah reportedly wandered out of Kuno National Park, was attacked after it preyed on calves.
02:54An historic turnout recorded in Israel amidst the West Asia tensions. Netanyahu claims right-wing strongholds are not waking up.
03:02Claims future of Jewish state hangs in balance.
03:16But the big story that's breaking at this moment, the Congress has decided to go ahead with a mock parliament,
03:21which they say will result in an impeachment, a public impeachment of Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar on the 30th
03:29of October.
03:30The Congress is to hold this mock parliament now at 10 Rajajee mark, the residence of its president Malik Arjun
03:37Kharge,
03:38after being denied permission to hold the mock parliament at the Ramleela grounds.
03:43The Congress is claiming the police denied this permission, citing security measures.
03:49So, a mock parliament now, as part of its attempt to once again encircle the Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar.
03:58Rahul, Moshmi Singh is joining us at this moment.
04:02Moshmi, what more can you tell us?
04:04Because it seems that the Congress was denied permission, Ramleela Maidan, Ashoka Hotel,
04:09but they are still going ahead with a mock parliament to impeach Gyanesh Kumar.
04:13What are they trying to prove by doing this?
04:17So, it's just, you know, building up the momentum ahead of the 1st November Mega Rally, Rajjeef,
04:24and it's an important address.
04:25You remember a few months back, it was the birthday celebrations of Mr. Karge
04:31that turned into a dharna of sorts outside the PM's residence.
04:35And 10 Rajajee mark, 10 Rajajee mark, is an important address for all the Congress MPs.
04:41100-odd MPs will be arriving at about 3.30 p.m. at Mr. Karge's residence
04:47for that mock parliament, where the impeachment of the CEC will be actually staged.
04:54And they've seen a small stint of that outside the Makar Dwar once,
05:00when, you know, a mock skit was held by Malika, by Manikam Kegor and other Congress MPs,
05:08where Rahul Gandhi also participated.
05:10So, it is actually, you know, mounting the entire pressure on the vote to be a beyond of the Congress.
05:17Okay, we'll wait and see what that really results in.
05:19But clearly, at the moment, what you're seeing is this intensifying showdown
05:23between the Congress and the government on SIR.
05:25Moshmi Singh, they're joining us.
05:27Remember, from the Supreme Court to the streets, the SIR showdown is escalating by the day.
05:33The ECI has rejected charges of having taken unilateral decisions,
05:37calling them unanimous in an affidavit before the Supreme Court.
05:41The Supreme Court has now given the petitioners, who include Rahul Gandhi,
05:4510 days to respond to the EC's affidavit.
05:48The political battle has shifted to Delhi.
05:50November 1, the India bloc will hold a rally.
05:53The BJP has already begun counter-rallies and padhyatras across the country.
05:59The SIR showdown, our top focus.
06:02From courtrooms to the streets, the showdown over SIR is exploding.
06:11As the opposition challenges the voter list revision process in the Supreme Court,
06:17the Election Commission of India has filed its response, rejecting allegations of unilateral decision-making
06:24by Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar.
06:28In the affidavit, the EC claims all three SIR orders were unanimous.
06:35CEC Gyanesh Kumar did not act alone.
06:37Form 6 remains unchanged.
06:40Only the centre can amend Form 6.
06:43No voter added or deleted without an ERO order.
06:48SIR declaration changed to ease mapping.
06:51Unmapped voters need not attend hearings.
06:54July 28, work allocation order never implemented.
07:01But the political battle is spilling onto the streets.
07:06The India bloc is gearing up for a show of strength against CEC Gyanesh Kumar
07:11with a rally at Delhi's Ram Leela Maidan on November 1.
07:17The BGP is preparing its counter-fensive.
07:21Under Lok Tantra Bachao, Rajakta Hatau, Chief Ministers and Union Ministers will hit the streets
07:27till November 5.
07:29Two rival campaigns, one escalating showdown.
07:33I will say,
07:44The power of Allah
07:46I will say,
07:48foreign
07:52foreign
07:53foreign
07:53foreign
07:54foreign
08:21The confrontation is also intensifying over the opposition's planned mock parliament
08:27to impeach CEC Gyanesh Kumar on October 30th.
08:32Congress claims permission was denied first at Ashoka Hotel and then for the mock parliament
08:37at Ramlila Maidan.
08:40But Delhi police sources tell India today the NOC for the November 1st rally remains intact.
08:46Police are not interfering with Congress's preparations.
08:50And permission for an event inside Ashoka Hotel does not fall under Delhi police's jurisdiction.
08:57Questioning denial of permission, Congress warned of another protest outside Prime Minister's residence.
09:04They are suppressing the political party.
09:07They want to shut down the criticism against them.
09:10On one side they are completely removing the genuine voters of the voter list.
09:16We know how to conduct, brother.
09:19We can do it in Amistad's house also.
09:21We can do it in Nayanthar Modi's house also.
09:23Let us see.
09:24We went there earlier.
09:26There are so many places in the Delhi.
09:29SIR is no longer just a fight over electoral rolls.
09:33It is a battle over political narrative, institutional credibility and the charge of vote jury.
09:40Bureau Report, India Today.
09:45So let's raise the big questions.
09:47If election commission decisions are unanimous,
09:50then why did two election commissioners object in writing to decisions on more than one occasion?
09:57Why did the EC's red flag the Form 6 online declaration and one of them call it illegal and unauthorized?
10:04Why did they raise the red flag over gradual centralization of electoral rolls?
10:10Why did the EC's two EC's claim they were not consulted before lacks of appeals were filed in Bengal in
10:16a near identical fashion through the EC's office?
10:19Why did they write to the cabinet secretary raising concerns over work allocation?
10:24So were the decisions of the election commission really unanimous in that sense?
10:28Or are there several questions to be raised?
10:31Joining me now, Justice Lokpal Singh is former judge of Uttarakhand High Court.
10:35He's come out very strongly in support of the Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar.
10:39And Dushyan Davey, Senior Advocate Supreme Court,
10:42who's been very critical of the way the SIR process has taken place.
10:46I want to come to you, Mr. Davey, first.
10:49Very clearly, in their affidavit, the EC is saying all decisions,
10:54including the decision to hold an SIR in the first instance, was unanimous.
10:59And therefore, reports, newspaper reports suggesting that there were these,
11:03there was dissension in the ranks, the decisions were not unanimous, are untrue and false.
11:09How do you respond? Is the EC giving itself a clean chit?
11:14Well, Rajdeep, you know, the situation in the country today is that it is virtually impossible to trust any constitutional
11:23institution.
11:25Election Commission of India is a caged tiger now.
11:28And the affidavit that has been filed on its behalf, frankly, raises more questions than answers.
11:35It's really a sad commentary on the part of, you know, these institutions that they are working under pressure from
11:42the executive,
11:43which is very powerful today, as we are seeing, as we saw during the emergency in 75 to 77.
11:49It's really, it doesn't speak well, it doesn't augur well for democracy,
11:54because one thing which is very clear in this country today, in public life, that truth is the victim.
12:00We will never know what the truth is.
12:03We will never know what the reality is.
12:05We will never know what those two, you know, learned election commissioners objected to.
12:10The fact of the matter is that the election commission, you know, has carried out this exercise, which they are
12:16entitled to.
12:17Nobody can question their right to conduct the SIR exercise.
12:20But the fact that they are throwing out crores and crores of people.
12:25For example, in Delhi, 47 lakh people were, you know, kept out.
12:29And now they are saying that 33 lakh may be brought back.
12:31Now, if you are going to bring back 33 lakh today, why did you not bring back those lakhs of
12:38people in Bihar and West Bengal before the elections actually took place?
12:43Now, you know, it therefore raises extraordinarily disturbing questions about the functioning of these institutions
12:50and the very functioning of democracy of India, which is the world's largest democracy.
12:55No, are you saying, are you saying therefore, Mr. Davey, that when the EC says its decisions were unanimous and
13:01tells it on affidavit,
13:02sworn affidavit to the Supreme Court, they are telling only a half-truth?
13:06Is that what you are saying?
13:08Well, I have no faith left…
13:10Or a lie.
13:11I have no faith left in any constitutional institutions.
13:15And I will take this affidavit, not with a pinch of salt, but with a backful of salt.
13:20You know, those are very strong words coming from you that you will take the EC's affidavit with a backful
13:26of salt.
13:26Justice Lokpal Singh, are you as skeptical as Dushan Davez or do you believe that the election commission has to
13:33some extent set the record straight?
13:39So far, the election commission of India is concerned, an affidavit has been filed before the Honorable Supreme Court.
13:46The affidavit discloses all the facts that the decision was taken unanimously and there was no unilateral decision taken by
13:54the Chief Election Commission of India.
13:56So, there is no occasion to disbelieve the affidavit filed or not by the officers of the Election Commission of
14:04India.
14:04Supreme Court, if a person files a false affidavit, he has to face the consequences.
14:11But what about the fact, sir, what about the fact, Justice Singh, what about the fact that 14 objections were
14:18recorded on decisions taken by the EC by at least 14 objections in 10 months,
14:25many of them on decisions taken by the EC by the two other election commissioners.
14:30They recorded one of them specifically said that the decision to treat the declaration to Form 6 online was illegal
14:39and arbitrary.
14:42Now, are we saying that what they said in the notings on the file is now different to an affidavit
14:48before the Supreme Court?
14:53So, but the affidavit says that those objections were raised, the objections were considered and the decision has not been
15:02implemented.
15:03So, taking the objection is one thing and implementing without taking and without considering the objection is another thing.
15:12Once the objection is raised and objection has been considered, then no implementation has been done.
15:18Sir, but they are saying decisions were taken without consulting them.
15:21In their objection, sir, they are saying decisions were taken without consulting them.
15:26How does a decision become unanimous if it is taken without consulting them?
15:33There is no such affidavit filed before the Honorable Supreme Court.
15:36No, that's my point. They have not said it in the Supreme Court. They have said it in their notings.
15:42No, no, no. Once the affidavit has been filed, it has to be considered in its spirit and there is
15:53no occasion to disbelieve on the affidavit and the affidavit has been filed with sincerity and no one will be
16:01there to file a files affidavit before the Supreme Court because the consequences are so high.
16:09Otherwise, the person will be in trouble and will face the consequences.
16:14Okay, you are saying therefore that…
16:16General opinion is that…
16:17So, you are saying once an affidavit has been filed particularly by a constitutional body like the EC, it has
16:24to be taken seriously.
16:25Dushan Dave, are you being overly skeptical then when you say that you will take the EC's affidavit with a
16:30bag full of salt?
16:31This is the election commission of India as Justice Lokpal Singh is saying, if they have lied on the affidavit,
16:37it has huge consequences.
16:40Well, I respect Justice Singh's viewpoint. There is no doubt that, you know, if somebody files an affidavit, it is
16:46filed with full sense of responsibility.
16:48But today, situation is very different in the country.
16:51Every institution is under fear, including the Supreme Court of India.
16:56The executive has become so powerful that no institution today, you know, is willing to discharge its duties as constitution
17:03commands them to do.
17:05And therefore, I mean, whatever the affidavit says, I won't take it as a gospel truth.
17:11Frankly, you know, a very fine investigative journalism revealed to the nation that there was something very seriously remiss in
17:20the functioning of the election commission of India.
17:22And that is not disputed in this affidavit.
17:26So, you know, that's one thing.
17:29Secondly, for example, Form 6.
17:31Now, there is no dispute about the fact that along with the Form 6, there was an attachment.
17:36Now, you may say that we have not changed Form 6, but you tried to change the Form 6 by
17:42adding an attachment to that, which was clearly impermissible.
17:45You know, I think, frankly, that today we are in a situation where we do not have an extraordinarily and
17:55fiercely independent Supreme Court of India.
17:57And we need that unless the Supreme Court is willing to test, you know, every statement that is made in
18:05this affidavit, you know, clearly.
18:08And, you know, I would say very, very strongly, it is very difficult to honor the truth.
18:14And I have very serious doubts that today's court is really capable or is even, I would say, interested in
18:22really finding out the real truth behind such affidavits.
18:25We need judges of the 70s, you know, who were so strong.
18:30And, you know, as I have always said, my guru has been Chief Justice P.D. Desai.
18:35And if it was his court, I can promise you, Rajneem Sardesai, that truth would have been brought out by
18:42the court.
18:43Sir, sir, sir, no, no, but the fact is judges also capitulated, as you well know, even in the 1970s,
18:50sir.
18:50We know what happened in ADM Jabalpur case.
18:53We know what happened during the emergency.
18:55There was super session by the executive.
18:57Are you likening the situation of judges today to what was happening before the emergency?
19:02Is that what you are saying?
19:04That there is so much of fear that they are unwilling to challenge the government of the day?
19:08Absolutely.
19:09There is no doubt about it.
19:10From 2014, we have seen every succeeding Chief Justice of India catapulating in one form or the other.
19:16And we know the reasons why they have catapulated.
19:19We know we can't discuss it on television.
19:22But those reasons are extremely damning and very serious.
19:26And large number of judges, we have seen, you know, how justice is being meted out in the court today.
19:31Every top industrialist is succeeding in Supreme Court in every case.
19:35Poor man is not getting justice.
19:37Political opponents are not getting justice.
19:39Critics are not getting justice.
19:41I mean, we have really seriously to ponder and I have been repeatedly begging the Supreme Court with folded hands
19:48that you are the ultimate custodian of the Constitution.
19:52You are the ultimate custodian of fundamental rights.
19:55Please bring yourself up to protect them as brilliantly as you can, as law expects you to do.
20:02No, no, so what do you expect?
20:03No, no, before I go to justicing, I want to know what do you expect in a case like this?
20:07Because, you know, the judges will be caught between a rock and a hard place.
20:11If they take the affidavit of the EC at face value and say the decisions were unanimous,
20:17the political opposition and critics will say the judiciary has succumbed, much as what you are saying today.
20:23Look, there is no doubt judiciary succumbed on the first day when SIR was challenged before the court.
20:29It was their duty on that day to have stopped the SIR exercise the way it was being carried out.
20:34Nobody says there is no power.
20:36It's a question is the manner of exercise of this power is extraordinarily arbitrary.
20:41And it is completely, you know, carried out in a manner which is helping the political party in power at
20:49the center.
20:49I mean, we may be right, we may be wrong, but truth needs to be brought out.
20:54And I have a very serious doubt in today's circumstances in the country, truth will ever emerge in public forum.
21:01You know, this is a senior advocate who's also been the head of the Bar Association of the Supreme Court,
21:06Justice Singh, who's making these comments.
21:10Your response, where does this leave, therefore, the election commission's affidavit?
21:15And where does this leave this entire case?
21:17Is the judiciary, whether we like it or not, now going to be caught in this political tug of war
21:22over the election commission?
21:32Justice Singh.
21:34It is a question to me.
21:36Yes, Justice Singh.
21:37Are you worried that if the likes of Dushan Damey are so critical of the judiciary,
21:41where does this leave the judiciary now when handling a politically contentious case like this?
21:48I have a great respect to Mr. Davey, but I am not supporting his version.
21:56So far, allegations are concerned that constitutional authorities are not working properly and they are under the fear.
22:05These authorities are under fear, he is saying.
22:11But I feel that all the constitutional authorities are working within its domain.
22:17So, allegations against the Supreme Court, judges Supreme Court, judges, those who are in the Supreme Court and the Chief
22:23Justice of India also,
22:25they are not appointed in the regime of the Prajad government.
22:27They have been appointed in the regime of Congress.
22:30So, allegations, anyone can raise.
22:34Now, they are not working freely.
22:36But the people have the confidence and we must respect our constitutional institutions.
22:43Otherwise, there will be no democracy in the country.
22:47If we will say we will blame to the Supreme Court of India,
22:50the Supreme Court of India is not giving justice to all the litigants of this country.
22:58And the poor litigants are not getting the justice and the opponent leaders are not getting justice,
23:05it will not be fair enough.
23:06Okay.
23:07I am going to leave it there.
23:08I am going to leave it there.
23:09Justice Singh, Dushan Davey, for joining me.
23:12Clearly, this is getting more and more politically contentious and the Supreme Court finds itself caught,
23:18as I said, between a rock and a hard place, some would say.
23:20Dushan Davey and Justice Lokpal Singh, appreciate your joining us.
23:25We are focusing on judges and the judiciary, the custodian of the Constitution.
23:30Well, a former Supreme Court judge, retired just a couple of years ago,
23:34Justice Sanjay Kishankal, has now come up with a book, a memoir, Without Fear of Favor,
23:41where he has raised several important questions over the way judges are appointed,
23:45over the relationship between the judiciary and executive, and much more.
23:49We just have done an exclusive interview with him, me and my colleague, Anisha Mathura.
23:54Big takeaways.
23:56Judiciary needs to grow a spine.
23:58Jaitli-like figure needed to bridge the gap between judiciary and executive.
24:03Reform judges' appointment process, says Justice Call.
24:06Caste community equations are affecting appointments.
24:10Judges not used to social media scrutiny.
24:13Cockroach comment, maybe should not have been made by Justice Surya Khan.
24:19Internal politics in judiciary is worse than what we see in the political class.
24:25Several serious comments made.
24:27Let's go straight to that exclusive interview with Justice Call.
24:36Hello and welcome to this India Today special, Without Fear or Favor, a memoir by former senior
24:44Supreme Court judge, Justice Sanjay Kishankal has already stirred a bit of a controversy and
24:51a fierce debate, largely because of some of the anecdotes and comments that the judge has made
24:56about fellow judges and the state of the judiciary.
24:59And the book itself, therefore, raises serious questions about our higher judiciary and the
25:05judiciary executive relationship.
25:08With me is my colleague, Anisha Mathura, who tracks the courts for us and the man of the
25:13moment, Justice Call.
25:15Good to have you on the show, Justice Call.
25:17Thank you very much for doing this.
25:19Thank you, Raideep.
25:20I have to start, though, with the controversy that's already been generated in the book
25:25over the comments that you've made over the former Chief Justice of India, Justice Chandrachood,
25:30suggesting he was far too deferential of the Modi government and at least on one occasion
25:36was keen to seek pre-decision approval from the government of a judicial appointment,
25:42even while the collegium was meeting to discuss names.
25:46Do you stick by your view that Justice Chandrachood was far too deferential of the government?
25:51Well, I have not said that he was deferential of the government.
25:55I have said he is deferential of the government in the appointment process.
25:59So, I have made a distinction between the judicial work and even between the administrative work.
26:05It was my belief that the collegium must debate the names and send it to the government and that's
26:10the stage where a discussion with the government should take place.
26:13We should not have some kind of a pre-approvals from the government.
26:17That's the distinction I would make.
26:21So, while I have complimented him on his judicial work, I have said that the system required that
26:27if the collegium system has to prevail, then in its true working style,
26:31we should be debating the names only and then discuss with the government.
26:34Did you at any stage walk out or record your dissent because pre-approval was being sought by the government?
26:41Well, if you see, there were three stages at which names during my tenure came.
26:46First was the first five names which were sent.
26:49That's the episode I have said when at the last minute a sixth name sought to be introduced
26:54did not meet with the approval of anybody.
26:57Thereafter, another two names were put up when the five names were still pending.
27:01Those two names I also agreed to but said that the seniority must be maintained.
27:06That is, the five names must come first and the two names later on.
27:10That's how it happened.
27:10The problem arose in the month of July when some name, another name was debated.
27:15We had in principle agreed but somehow there were some reservations which I have referred to from the government's point
27:20of view.
27:21I have redacted some portion out of it.
27:23It's at that stage I said that well if this is how the appointment have processes to go on.
27:28I closed my files. I said earlier also Chief Justice used to appoint and I would not like to participate
27:35in it.
27:36Please understand we are not parliamentarians who will make a walkout from parliament.
27:40What you do in five people is saying that I am closing it. I am not.
27:43And he quickly adjourned the meeting. Next meeting was held only in the month of November.
27:47We will come to the collegium system and how the five judges meet to decide on appointments.
27:52Anisha has several questions on that but I just want to ask you all this is a controversy because these
27:58remarks,
27:59Justice call are coming at a time when there is a growing feeling that the higher judiciary is losing its
28:04independence
28:04and ceding far too much space to the political executive.
28:08Do you broadly agree with that that the higher judiciary is losing its sense of independence and ceding far too
28:15much space to the executive?
28:17See again I say there is a judicial process, there is an administrative process.
28:21I believe judges still are largely independent, are capable of taking on the government in judicial matters.
28:27But on administrative matters there are issues arising.
28:31That's on appointments and…
28:33This is basically an appointment issue because appointments in the High Court are stuck,
28:38appointments in the Supreme Court are stuck, reiterated appointments are stuck,
28:42recommendations are stuck, they are taking too much of time.
28:45And three judges bench of the Supreme Court had laid down broad timelines.
28:50I just want to push you though once more on this.
28:53You say that the government has far more respect for judges with a spine.
28:58Yes.
28:59But is there less and less space justice for judges with a spine?
29:05Does the government… I want an honest answer.
29:06Does the government want judges who are amenable or differential?
29:13Well…
29:13Honest answer.
29:14Well, starting from the history of the judiciary, any government in power, I am saying from 1950s,
29:20would like judges who broadly agree with their principles and philosophies and listen to them.
29:27So, if you are a person who sticks out, it would never be very palatable to any government.
29:34It's no different with this government.
29:36So, it is for the judges to be able to stand.
29:39I have related my own experience.
29:41My own experience has been Chandigarh, Chennai, Supreme Court.
29:45If you stick by what you are saying, and in the process, you explain to the government the reasons for
29:51it, I said.
29:53By and large, I think the government is willing to play ball.
29:56Apart from the controversy over Justice Chandrachur in particular, your book has mentioned what happened with the other previous CGI's
30:05that you have worked under.
30:07And at one point, you have said that the politics among judges is more political than the politics among politicians
30:14themselves.
30:15Judges of Rajneetis is a lot.
30:17I have said that the judges of Rajneetis is a lot.
30:22And you have the anecdotes really to show it in your book.
30:26But then, what does that mean for the collegium system?
30:29Because the country is looking at the Supreme Court.
30:32The country is looking at the question of appointments.
30:35Repeatedly, particularly in the last 10 years, we have seen the government coming out and criticising the collegium system.
30:41When you have so much Rajneetis, when you have so much personal equations playing a role,
30:46where do you see the collegium system, the appointment system and the larger debate?
30:51So, Anisha, if you see the collegium system, why did it come?
30:55The judiciary felt that there was too many pressures and this came in early 90s.
31:00They wanted to insulate the judiciary from a situation in the appointment process.
31:05So, it's not something in the constitution.
31:07It's a judicial interpretation and a bench which produced this concept of collegium system.
31:14Now, to my mind, it worked fairly well at the initial stage.
31:18Thereafter, everybody's own thinking processes and I think right towards the end of my High Court tenure itself in Delhi,
31:25I personally was of the view that this is not working as it should be working.
31:30I've given an example of putting this question to just a loyalty on appointment process because I had the benefit
31:35of knowing him well.
31:36And I was not satisfied that a process of appointment should not consider objective criterias like circulation of judgments, disposal
31:45of the cases.
31:47Those are factors. Integrity, of course, you will verify. It's the first prerequisite.
31:51The government of the day and the political class, I would say, brought in the NJC by a complete, I
31:59would say, not majority,
32:01but unanimously except, I think, the Jet Malani dissenting.
32:05I believe and I've said so that that collegium system could have worked and should have been given a chance.
32:11With the NJC? With the NJC. It needed some tweaking to my mind.
32:16The apprehension of the judiciary was right that if out of the six, two are so-called independent members,
32:22one is the law minister and three judges, then clearing names would make it a 4-2 scenario.
32:27While earlier in discussions, it was thought that there should be a five-member committee instead of two, one independent
32:34member.
32:34That would have worked. So it could have been an endeavor to tweak that and say only a five-member
32:40committee.
32:41Or the chief justice could have been given a casting vote.
32:44Or the matter could have been kept pending for the time being and let it work for some time.
32:48This has become a great angst between the political class as a whole.
32:52And I'm saying it's not the government of the day alone. If a new government comes, they'll do the same.
32:58They feel the constitution makers gave them a say in the appointment of judges.
33:01You are seeking to deprive them of that say. The net result is this kushti which goes on.
33:09Between the collegium recommending the name, then the government at times not being happy sitting on it.
33:15Then sometimes recommending back. Reiteration of name sometimes takes place.
33:19Those reiterations don't go through. And too much time is consumed in this process.
33:23You've in fact said it in so many words that the political class hasn't gotten over the NJC judgment.
33:27Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm sure you interact. You talk across the political class.
33:32And I have the, now it's not a problem having post-retirement to be able to talk.
33:37All of them say, aap apne aapko kaise appoint kar litte.
33:40You know, you're very interestingly mentioning that you've got to look at caste and community also when you're appointing judges.
33:47Because in one instance, you tell us in the book, how the government reportedly wanted to know the caste of
33:54a minority community judge before his family converted.
33:57I mean, what does that suggest? That rather than look at competence, integrity, the government of the day wants to
34:04know the caste of a particular minority community judge before his family got converted?
34:12I mean, are you okay with that?
34:13So, normally, if we did, say in the two states I was, you consider minority a minority.
34:21So you look to representation of the, especially in Chennai, a Christian community, the Muslim community.
34:27And anywhere for that matter, OBCs, MBCs, the upper caste, etc.
34:34In fact, for a person like from Delhi, you are, I mean, I must confess, I was quite unaware of
34:40these dynamics.
34:42Because Delhi courts do not have any of these caste community angles.
34:45So one of my colleagues used to joke that you can become a backward commissioners chairman because of the amount
34:50of, you know, you have to get into.
34:51But to make the system work, India is not one unit, it's various units.
34:56Some places this plays a more important role, say Chandigarh played a most important role.
35:01But Chennai, I could not have worked because that's how the society is there.
35:05But I don't think it's then required to look at it from where that person is coming.
35:09I'm going to go back to the caste question.
35:12Because you've given these examples, whether it's Punjab, whether it's Chennai,
35:16how caste equations in the states have greatly affected something as basic as transfer postings in the district judiciary.
35:23And as somebody who's been covering courts for a while now, we have seen multiple instances where allegations come up
35:33that judges are biased,
35:35caste equations come into the picture when judgments are being considered, when cases are being considered.
35:41And when there is such serious question of caste equations in appointments even at the district levels, in transfers in
35:49the district levels.
35:50What does this really say about our judiciary?
35:54How we are able to create this question?
35:59Because judiciary is supposed to be above it all, so to speak.
36:02But clearly it's not.
36:04See, judiciary is part of the same society.
36:06Those people are not dropped from the sky.
36:09So where our society is so caste-oriented, you can't do otherwise.
36:14You know from Chennai, periodically it comes.
36:16So they will look at the percentage of your community and say,
36:20well, there should not be more than these many from that community.
36:23But there are some methods at district level, you say.
36:26So one method I tried in Chennai was, I found out in each district which are the prominent castes.
36:31Invariably you will find judges would try to be around that area.
36:34So I tried to dissuade that situation and ask them that people where that's the prominent caste should be sent
36:41to some other district.
36:43It's an idea of breaking the caste nexus in some way.
36:46In a different way in Punjab-Haryana, I said, okay, we have supervising High Court judges for districts.
36:52I said the Haryana, it's the same court.
36:54So judges appointed from the Haryana quota in the High Court would look after portfolios of the Punjab.
37:00And the Punjab judges would look after the portfolio of Haryana.
37:04These are small methods to see to bring a little greater objectivity to the situation.
37:08When Arun Jetli was there, there was at least someone who was there to build some kind of a dialogue.
37:15Yes.
37:16Between the judiciary and the executive.
37:18Is there no one there like that?
37:20Is that the kind of person you need?
37:23Someone who can bridge the divide that seems to exist between the judiciary and executive in terms of the trust
37:29factor.
37:29Do you need someone in government like that?
37:32So I feel there are two thumbs of the institution, the political and the administrative thumb and the judicial thumb.
37:40You need an interface.
37:42Okay.
37:43Mr. Jetli was a unique person in the sense that the judiciary had trust in him that he will not
37:48do something which is improper or not desirable.
37:53And he interacted with the judicial members quite well at a distance.
38:00So when things were told to him that things were not right, he also had the ears of the highest
38:05on the political side.
38:07He was able to bridge that gap.
38:09And I think his loss in my mind has been a great loss to the system.
38:14Because that interface went.
38:15In fact, I have related how once at a gathering.
38:20It was late Mr. Jetli's son's wedding when the finance minister was there and I was just talking to her.
38:28She called for me and I just said, well, that's budget time.
38:31So you must be very busy.
38:32She said, yes, we miss Mr. Jetli at these times.
38:35So I said, you miss Mr. Jetli for more than one reason.
38:37And the bigger reason is you have lost the only interface you had with the government.
38:42But then there could have been a 0.6 Mr. Jetli, a 0.7 Mr. Jetli to step in and
38:47be the interface.
38:48Somehow after that, the government, I believe, has not evolved in interface with the judiciary.
38:53There has been nobody to step in who has, say he's a prominent lawyer, has a confidence that if the
39:00judges tell him something,
39:01it's not going to be misused, will take it up with the government how to sort that problem out.
39:07Previous law ministers, lot of them, if you see, have played that role.
39:11But somehow after this, this has not happened.
39:16Mr. Rajiju came for some time, other ministers came for some time, changes occurred.
39:21I think the judiciary looks to a prominent legal face to have that confidence to get back to the government.
39:27So in the Rajiju period, when Mr. Rajiju was law minister, we saw a lot of acrimony really.
39:34Whether it was him making comments about the NJAC, whether it was the Mr. Dhankar episode that happened.
39:42When you say there is no interface, aren't we seeing an expansion of acrimony rather than interface between…
39:50So this is, you see, you must know how to deal with the judiciary is how I say.
39:55You can't be honestly taking on the judiciary if you have to work it out.
40:01You have to be the interface.
40:03There were certain aspects where I think he was possibly too blunt, but there were other areas where he did
40:09do something.
40:11I have an example, for example, I felt unnecessarily two Delhi names being detained.
40:15And I took it up with them that you can't do this and I will take it up.
40:20They were aware that the judicial matters was before me.
40:23This is give us some time, we'll do it.
40:25Of course, somebody lost seniority in the process, but it was done within 10 days and rang me up saying
40:30we've done it.
40:31So it was not completely non-responsive, but the equations never settled down, I think.
40:36That was the problem.
40:36The reason we're saying this is also because in the book, for example, you were on the bench in the
40:41Rafael case.
40:42Yes.
40:42And you mentioned how the moment the judgment is given, you suddenly find yourself caught in a polarized political tug
40:49of war.
40:50You know, one side that loses out will immediately say that the judge has quote unquote sold out or is
40:57very close to the government.
40:58That's why he's given this judgment.
40:59All the more, given the kind of cases that have come before the judiciary, be it the Ayodhya case, Rafael,
41:06and this whole culture of sealed envelope, that everything has to be kept within a sealed envelope.
41:11Do you believe that therefore all of this is leading to mistrust?
41:15You know, how are you going to build that trust given that there are these politically sensitive cases coming before
41:20the judiciary?
41:21I think isn't our society very divided at this time?
41:25See, I seldom seen the society so divided as I see it today, unfortunately.
41:30No, so are the judges also caught in this political divide as a result?
41:33They are not, but they suffer some extent consequences of this great divide.
41:40For example, when I wrote Rafael, I still remember a good friend of mine who was a liberal.
41:47He said, Sanjay, can I ask you, how could you do this?
41:50I said, should I be writing what you feel like?
41:53He admired me for MFOSM, which I wrote.
41:55I said at MFOSM's time, I received a lot of criticism also.
41:58There were people who thought I had stepped out of place to write that judgment.
42:01This was the obscenity case of MFOSM.
42:04This is the MFOSM case where his painting was sought to be prosecuted.
42:08I quashed this.
42:09There were people who admired what he had done.
42:12There were people critical of it.
42:13You happen to be a person who admired my judicial view.
42:16Now, I am doing this because my belief is there should be absolute liberty in writing.
42:21There should be absolute liberty in paintings.
42:23These are non-conformist issues.
42:25But I don't believe the court should be stepping in to decide which gun to purchase, which plane to buy.
42:31Because we step into very, very quicksand positions.
42:35And if there is a criminality to it, you go to the criminal court to do so.
42:38So what is happening is I have been saying that we are not here to protect the government,
42:44but the judiciary is a check and balance.
42:46We are not here to propagate the opposition's view because that's not the function of the court.
42:52See, let's see.
42:53When the constitution makers came, they could have, we got democracy, an absolute democracy,
42:58a young nascent country when right to women were given by European countries later on.
43:03We gave it to everybody equally.
43:05They also decided that the method of democracy would be first past the poll.
43:10They could have said a proportional representation.
43:12They could have said many other methods of democracy also.
43:16Now, first past the poll means that most governments have ruled with less than 50% votes.
43:222% votes swing here and there makes you lose completely or win completely.
43:27So this feeling among, with respect, I say, the political class that the people have given us a mandate
43:33and we must do our way without a check and balance from the court is conceptually, constitutionally wrong.
43:40Because the court has been made to be a check and balance for this reason.
43:44But it is also not in forum for if the opposition is not able to politically deal with the government,
43:51don't ask the court to come and deal with it.
43:53No, but you've seen in justice, Surya Khan's case, even students.
43:56The students of Nalsar didn't want him at their convocation ceremony.
44:00So, I mean, it's not just a dinner table anymore, it's right round.
44:04I mean, what does the Chief Justice then do in that situation?
44:08I mean, he finds himself being questioned constantly.
44:11His comments on cockroaches have, you know, initiated this, triggered this whole Cockroach Janta Party movement.
44:17Surya Khan today is being accused by his critics of being too close to the government.
44:21See, maybe the Cockroach comment should not have been made.
44:25But in a court when you have so many matters, something escapes your lips which should not have escaped.
44:32He possibly meant to say something else that fervorous petitions are fine.
44:36The correct order should have been that look, if you agreed by the designation system, you file a proper petition.
44:41Or if you're wanting protection, you file a proper petition and come up.
44:44I think all of us have been in the process of learning.
44:47We used to earlier talk much more as the judges.
44:51Supreme Court, I know I kept more quiet because you don't know who will derive what method and what meaning
44:57out of a sentence.
44:58Yet, if the judge doesn't question the lawyer, the lawyer doesn't get an opportunity to satisfy what is troubling the
45:07mind of the judge.
45:08So, I always say a quiet judge is troublesome, very, very troublesome because you don't know how to persuade him.
45:13Similarly, you know, you have to sometimes lighten the court atmosphere.
45:20Crack a little joke, do something.
45:22Now, with all this camera on you, what does the joke mean?
45:26What impact does it have?
45:27So, I'm telling you, we are the judges of a generation which has not dealt with this social media exposure.
45:36We are in a learning curve. The younger generation, the Gen Z or the next generation have grown with this.
45:41So, their thinking processes are different.
45:45And a reminder, those were excerpts. The full interview, more than an hour, you can watch on our India Today
45:50books, digital site.
45:51Plenty of stories in that special interview with Justice Call.
45:57But the message is very clear. The judiciary needs to grow a spine, back both.
46:04That's the key if you are to retain your constitutional democracy and faith in it.
46:09Let's turn to another of our top stories.
46:11Now, if you thought jailbreak was just a series of carefully plotted prison escapes,
46:16Tamil Nadu's Theni has discovered or delivered a real-life episode.
46:2017 inmates breaking out of a sub-jail after overpowering the prison staff.
46:2513 of them have been caught. A massive manhunt is underway.
46:30Take a look at another of our top stories.
46:55Tamil Nadu is no stranger to larger-than-life cinema plots.
47:04But in Theni, a real-life prison break has unfolded like a scene straight out of a movie.
47:1517 inmates escaped from Theni sub-jail late Monday night after launching an attack on prison personnel.
47:22The escape reportedly began when one inmate pretended to be ill, prompting jail staff to rush to the cell.
47:30Three guards entered to check on him only to be attacked by the inmates.
47:34The prisoners then made their escape, triggering a massive manhunt across the state.
47:38Tamil Nadu police have deployed drones to track them down.
47:42So far, 13 escapees have been napped.
47:4515 pm, in Theni, a total of five miles,
47:51that就是 type of public upon us with less and double-brush orders.
47:55In District dwelling in District Korosern,
47:58we quickly nordicam under five blocks.
48:02The ship lploys those
48:14The state government has suspended nine jail staff over the escape.
48:19The prison break has now triggered a political storm with the opposition targeting the Vijay
48:24government over the security labs.
48:28DMK Chief MK Stalin slammed the administration over the incident, alleging that prisoners
48:33were being allowed to escape under its watch.
48:37The BJP meanwhile termed the jailbreak a humiliating failure of the TVK government.
48:44The TVK hit back by sharing an old movie clip featuring Udainidi Stalin running before
48:50being caught by the police.
48:57But beyond the political sparring, the jailbreak raises a serious question.
49:02How did 17 inmates manage to overpower prison staff and flee?
49:09Bureau Report, India Today.
49:14A bit of a Tamil Nadu pot boiler in real life.
49:18Let me turn from there to our Get Real India story, where a Madhya Pradesh government funded
49:23conference held in Ujjain six months ago is now back in the news.
49:27The organizers find themselves in a spot after it has emerged that the travel agents for this
49:33entire conference allegedly submitted fake travel bills.
49:37Many of the vehicles that were listed in the bills have turned out to be fake, resulting
49:42in the government spending excessive amounts of taxpayers money.
49:46Ravish Pal Singh with tonight's Get Real India story.
49:58Baba Mahakal and Samrath Vikramaditya Pavitranagri Ujjain
50:12Mahakal, the Master of Time, a conference on India's ancient system of timekeeping and astronomy was held in Ujjain in
50:19April this year.
50:20Six months later, the event organized by the Madhya Pradesh Council of Science and Technology and the
50:26Veer Bharat Niyas is under corruption cloud.
50:29Vehicles for the event were hired through a Bhopal based firm, Aditi Tour and Travers.
50:35And now several suspected irregularities in the billing process have emerged.
50:41For instance, in bill number 3061, a vehicle with registration number MP13 ZP4512 was listed as an INOVA.
50:53But the Ujain Regional Transport Office records reveal this number belongs to an e-riksha.
51:11A vehicle with registration number UP65 ED1523 is listed as a traveler in bill number 3054.
51:22According to the bill, the vehicle covered 186 kilometers in a single day
51:27and charged Rs. 29,242. However, this registration number is of a moped in Uttar Pradesh.
51:35The owner of Aditi Tour and Travers attributed the mistakes to human error.
52:02When India today confronted the culture minister about the alleged irregularities, he shifted the blame on to another department.
52:29The Madhya Pradesh council of science and technology claimed the culture department had arranged vehicles. It had set up a
52:36four-member committee to investigate the alleged irregularities.
52:50The total expenditure on the Mahakal conference was 6.29 crore rupees.
52:56Of this, 57 lakh rupees was linked to travel related expenses.
53:01Now, this expense is under the scanner.
53:05With Ravish Pah Singh, Bureau Report, India Today.
53:12Just many of the stories that we try and report that often get dropped from the headlines at other prime
53:18-time shows.
53:19Just about time to tell you our good news today's story was a remarkable knock played by Abhishek Sharma,
53:25the Indian opener who smashed a 38-ball, 113, along with Vaibhav Suryavanshi, the boy wonder who blasted 45 of
53:3419 as India chased 199 against New Zealand in just 13.2 overs to win the five-match series at
53:42Wellington.
53:43They set a power play world record and have taken an unassailable 3-0 series lead.
53:51Abhishek Sharma and Vaibhav Suryavanshi lighting up Wellington once again.
53:58And they truly are quite remarkable when they get going.
54:02India's T20 team proving they're not easy for anyone to take on at the moment.
54:09Okay, that's just about enough time that we had on the show tonight.
54:13Thanks very much for watching.
54:15Stay well, stay safe.
54:17Good night, Shubratri, Jai Hind, Namaskar.