- 3 hours ago
Matt Kears and Josh Alcock left their trades to build Black Cactus Barbecue in East London. They combine Texas barbecue techniques with global flavors, creating food they want to eat while introducing customers to barbecue beyond brisket.
Watch now to learn how Matt Kears and Josh Alcock turned a barbecue side project into Black Cactus and built a menu combining Texas techniques with global flavors.
Restaurant Influencers is sponsored by:
• Toast All-In-1 Restaurant POS: https://entm.ag/ToastRI
• PepsiCo Foodservice: https://entm.ag/RIPepsico
Watch now to learn how Matt Kears and Josh Alcock turned a barbecue side project into Black Cactus and built a menu combining Texas techniques with global flavors.
Restaurant Influencers is sponsored by:
• Toast All-In-1 Restaurant POS: https://entm.ag/ToastRI
• PepsiCo Foodservice: https://entm.ag/RIPepsico
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NewsTranscript
00:00The best restauranteurs, I mean, I've done thousands of interviews with people that have
00:03hundreds of locations, thousands of locations. Those people ask the most questions.
00:15Welcome to Restaurant Influencers presented by Entrepreneur. I'm your host, Sean Walcheck.
00:19This is a Cali BBQ Media production in life, in the restaurant business, and in the new creator
00:25economy. We learn through lessons and stories. I traveled all the way from San Diego, California,
00:31to the number one barbecue brand outside of the United States. Black Cactus Barbecue. I'm all
00:40the way in London. Is this technically, is this London? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Technically. East London.
00:46East London. East 17, yeah. I've got Matt and Josh. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much.
00:52Thank you for having me. Where in London are we? We're in Walthamstow, so this is Black Horse
00:58Beer Mile, and this is Brandy House Burnt Faith. So, yeah, East 17, man.
01:04Congratulations on being named top barbecue brand. That's a big deal. It was a very big
01:10deal, yeah. When did you find out? While I was driving to work. Yeah, I think I just pulled
01:15up and they were going through the list. Yeah, we saw one of the big ones from the UK at
01:19like
01:19number seven, Smokestacks, and I was like, we're probably not in there. And then when it got to
01:24number two, it was like Big Doms, and I was like, I wonder who's number one? And it was like,
01:27Black
01:27Hacks. I was like, all right. You sure? It's like, sweet. Thank you. Like, yeah, it was, got a phone
01:33call straight away, and they're like, how are you feeling? I was like, a bit weird, not gonna lie, but
01:37yeah, it was a, yeah, it's a big achievement, but just got to carry on with it consistently.
01:41Oh, we're so grateful to Toast, obviously, title sponsor of the show. We started in 2022
01:47this podcast, Restaurant Influencers, to tell the best stories in the hospitality game, the
01:53best technology stories to travel all over the world. We are so excited to hear from you.
02:00Primarily, this is a show for entrepreneurs. I know you guys didn't start in the barbecue
02:04game. You both have different backgrounds. Can you share your backgrounds?
02:08I'm an electrician by trading. Yeah, I was. Well, I went to uni and done, like, sport,
02:13and, like, strength, conditioning, performance, and then they didn't want to pay me any money,
02:17so I went back to the building site. So I've been digging holes, working on, like, rail,
02:22all that. Okay. That's just sort of developing this, like, along the way.
02:26You stopped the shovel for the ground for the pit. Yeah, certainly, yeah. Can't get away
02:28from that shovel. Yeah. Can't get all around. Uh, why? Like, when was the oh shit moment?
02:35When was it, like, okay, we're going all in. So, like, Black Hector started off, we started
02:40doing coffee before, um, and I had, like, a massive passion of delivering, like, really
02:45good, uh, coffee for where I live. Okay. So we had this, like, little shack, and me and
02:50a few mates ran it, and then one time it got broken into, and we got a payout, and then
02:55that's what got the first smoker. Okay. And then we were just, why'd you buy a smoker?
02:59Why'd you buy a smoker and not? Just because I, I wanted to get into it, you know? I mean,
03:03we had been to, um, uh, Metopia before, and, uh, Dave Carter was rocking out his brisket
03:09rolls, and I ate that, and I was just like, there's nothing around here for that. Mm-hmm.
03:14And I'm sick of going into London. Yeah, especially where we were. To eat.
03:17But obviously, now we travel in London every day to work. Yeah. And I'm like,
03:21It ain't really worked out, you know? But yeah, that was the whole, that was the whole premise
03:25of it. We were just, I was just smoking as well as doing coffee in this little, um, yeah,
03:30this little shack at the weekends, um, as working on the rail, and then over time, the
03:35rail business, like, just, we'd come in on a Thursday, and they were just, like, we're
03:38shut, and I was like, yeah, fuck that, I ain't going back on the rail, you know?
03:42Really? And I just want to, yeah, I wanted to just develop the coffee more, because
03:45I had, that's what my passion was, you know what I mean? So I had this little, um, I got
03:49this little pitch at a train station, I had this smashed up, like, white van with a diesel
03:54generator, I don't even know how I sold any coffee, just pumping fumes out of, um, out
03:58the side of the van, and then, uh, the same company that offered me that spot, they had
04:03a spot in London, in Shoreditch, so then I went up there, fitted it out, built the stuff
04:07for it, and then got in there, and then I was in there four weeks, and then COVID happened.
04:11So then I literally come back and just started smoking meat, backpacking,
04:15selling it, and selling it on a WhatsApp group, to my mates.
04:18You know, it was on the Rugby,
04:19Yeah, Rugby, for our Rugby group, and then it sort of developed from there, and then,
04:24as slowly like that, started developing more, Josh was posting stuff online with his photos,
04:28and we knew each other from Rugby.
04:30What kind of photos?
04:31I was, so I, I moved to Holland for work, and I was like, I was living on my own,
04:35basically,
04:35in a farm, in a barn, I was working in a data centre, I was, I just needed to get
04:39away
04:40from the UK, so they put me in the middle of nowhere, and I was just going to the coffee
04:44shops, having some nice stuff from the coffee shops, and then coming home and cooking, posting
04:49online, and he, he rung me up, and he was like, I want to start doing barbecue, do you want
04:53to give me your hands?
04:54And I was like, yeah, sound up.
04:55You were posting barbecue pics?
04:56No, no, I was just cooking pictures.
04:58Oh really, just cooking, but not, not barbecue?
05:00No, not barbecue, no, just cooking in general, and he, he rung me up.
05:03But you guys know each other, or no?
05:04Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
05:04We used to play, so we used to play rugby together.
05:06Okay, got it, got it.
05:08So he saw it online, and.
05:09On what, on Instagram?
05:10Yeah, on Instagram.
05:11Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
05:11A lot of my mates would take the piss out of me at the time.
05:14They were what?
05:15They were taking the piss out of me, like, why are you posting your dinner?
05:17I was like, oh, I was like, some hoards.
05:19Why are you posting this dinner?
05:21And I was like, the likes feel nice sometimes.
05:22What are they posting?
05:23What are they laughing?
05:24They're pissing shit.
05:25Don't worry about what I'm posting.
05:30They rung me up.
05:30He's like, I'm going to start doing barbecue.
05:31Do you want to, do you want to give me a hand?
05:32And I was like, yeah, sound.
05:34I didn't really think much of it.
05:35And then like, a year went by, we sort of spoke about it more and more.
05:38Sort of got a concept.
05:39We, we sort of wanted, we wanted to do like, take away barbecue rolls with the coffee.
05:44But like, each roll has their own identity.
05:46So it's like from a different culture.
05:48So each meat weren't just mustard or barbecue sauce.
05:50It had like its own identity.
05:52So it's a little bit different.
05:53So you weren't just getting the same flavours, but a different cut of meat in the bun.
05:56It all had its own sort of, it had its own thing.
05:59And then, yeah.
06:01And then he rung me up and he was like, I'm going to do it this weekend.
06:05And I'll, yeah, it just, it proved how much I enjoyed it because I went out that weekend.
06:09I was a little bit hung over when he picked me up because I didn't drive.
06:11And it was one of the moments when he rung me, I was like, I couldn't be bothered to go,
06:14but I went and done it anyway.
06:15And it made me realise how much I hated my actual job that I was doing.
06:18And I'm glad I did it because it changed my life completely.
06:21Because after that, I was hooked.
06:22We were both bringing each other up, developed a menu.
06:25We got reported to the local council.
06:27Yeah, sure.
06:27What happened?
06:28Well, we started stealing customers from a, like a wine bar down the road.
06:33Because we used to do it Sundays in our rugby club.
06:35Yeah.
06:35And they'd obviously seen the queues and seen it.
06:37So they rung the local council and said we were doing it on like private land or was it public
06:41land?
06:41Yeah.
06:41It was a weird thing because of the cold hot.
06:43Yeah.
06:43So we got shut down essentially.
06:45And then we had to then go legit.
06:46So we went and got a food truck or he did and just built from there.
06:50It was more like we were doing it because I said to him, let's start selling it hot.
06:53You know what I mean?
06:54Barbecue is better hot.
06:55Like all these people that are enjoying it.
06:56Right off the pit.
06:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.
06:57So let's do it hot.
06:58So we're doing the coffee and we've got photos somewhere.
07:01We're doing the coffee and we're doing the barbecue as well.
07:04And then we've done a gazebo and then it hammered on a gazebo.
07:07And I was like, no, we can't be doing this.
07:09You know what I mean?
07:09Because he had holes in it and I'm holding it down hungover.
07:12Yeah.
07:12I was just like, look.
07:13So we got the truck and then we developed the truck.
07:15And then we was doing like the pastrami croissant and yeah, like coffee on the truck.
07:21You know what I mean?
07:21And then it kind of, it started moving.
07:24We were like, we've got to get into London because we were doing all these markets.
07:26Yeah.
07:27For like two or three years.
07:28Two or three years we're doing like local markets and local food festivals.
07:32But then you sort of realise that there's no money to be made if you're doing good food.
07:35Correct.
07:35Like if you're doing good food because you can't charge what you need to charge.
07:38Yeah.
07:39And also you are competing with frozen burgers and frozen sausages, which people are naturally
07:43going to pivot to you because it's like, well, we can't compete.
07:46We're selling F1 Wagyu brisket at the time for £13, which is nothing.
07:49Yeah.
07:50Again, it's £5 fish and chips.
07:52Yeah.
07:52And they're always going to go there.
07:53Like it is what it is.
07:54And it got to a point where we're doing seven days a week on site, not seeing our friends,
08:00our girlfriends and still doing it on the weekend, losing money and just not making anything.
08:04We're still doing it.
08:04And it was like, we need to do this either.
08:06We need to either not do it or do it full time and jump in properly and make it our
08:10jobs.
08:10So we just, we messaged like round this area.
08:13We messaged all the breweries around here.
08:15And there was one down the road called XL that accepted us.
08:18And that was that.
08:18We handed in our notices on site.
08:21And about two days later, we had five staff in the kitchen and it was like, oh shit, we're in
08:24it now.
08:25Yeah.
08:25Oh wow.
08:26Yeah.
08:26It went from like literally from never being, never working in the kitchen to working in
08:29the kitchen.
08:30What year was that?
08:31That was 2024, wasn't it?
08:34Yeah.
08:3424 would be insane.
08:36End of 24, wasn't it?
08:36No, it was April.
08:37April 24.
08:39And when did you guys move here?
08:40We moved here February 25th.
08:42So last year.
08:43February 25th.
08:44And it's just been flying ever since.
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10:04So yeah, we moved here and it's obviously the last place had its constraints like we outgrew it really fast.
10:11We were very slow and then we had an influencer called Eatin' with Todd.
10:14Okay.
10:14And he'd been wanting to do us for like a few years and kept on asking us to do it
10:18because we knew it was a very big platform to be on.
10:21And we kept on like just pushing it off because at the time we were on the truck, we didn't
10:25have a set location.
10:26So it felt like a wasted opportunity.
10:29And then we waited.
10:30And then when we finally got the gig at XL, we were like, yeah, yeah, we'll do it on the
10:34first weekend.
10:35That first week was a nightmare movement.
10:36And we moved in the kitchen.
10:38It was disgusting.
10:39We had service on a Thursday.
10:41We moved in Monday.
10:42I didn't finish cleaning till Wednesday.
10:44You're on your hands and knees scrubbing and like, it was just, it was a nightmare situation.
10:49The first brisket cook as well went over because we were doing burgers as well.
10:52So it stalled.
10:53We didn't sleep.
10:54I think the briskets came out at like 3am and we had to put them in.
10:57And then let them cool down, put them in the warmers at, was it 6am?
11:01Finally went to sleep on the bench in the brewery.
11:03Then the lights went on and the cleaner put drum and bass on.
11:05I was like, right, we're up for Saturday shift then.
11:07So it started cracking on.
11:08And then I remember we were both arguing in the kitchen because he was turning up and it was a
11:13big day for us.
11:13It was opening.
11:14It was the first time we ever done barbecue trays.
11:16Yeah.
11:16It was the biggest menu we'd ever done.
11:18We had no staff.
11:19It was just me and him.
11:20We hadn't slept.
11:21We hadn't slept for two days.
11:22And I remember ringing him up about an hour before he turned.
11:24I was like, you can't come.
11:27We're not ready.
11:28It is what it is.
11:29And if you don't turn up again, I'm sorry for wasting the time.
11:32It's like, no, no, wait until you get comfortable.
11:33So you waited like two or three months.
11:36We were slowly getting into it.
11:37It wasn't really busy.
11:38And then he came and it was just nonstop.
11:42Really?
11:42Yeah.
11:42It was very overwhelming because we were a very small team.
11:45It was our first ever hospitality gig.
11:47And I think what showed from that is that we stayed consistently good, which was the main
11:52worry.
11:52It's like when you get that mass, that influx of people, how do you stay, which thank fuck
11:57we did.
11:57Because I think that's what kept us busy.
11:59Because people were coming down and still enjoying it and then returning and returning
12:02and just built and built.
12:03And then when we moved here, we had the room then, we had the capacity and then we actually
12:07had a kitchen with a proper front of house team.
12:09Because before it was a hole in the wall, I was the front of house.
12:12Not very hospitable.
12:14I'm not very hospitable.
12:15I'm on my 80th hour of the week and it's my first customer and they're shouting at me.
12:20I'm like, mate, what are you trying to find me?
12:22You know what I think?
12:24So going from being a hole in the wall and being the front facing to now having a brilliant
12:28front of house team here, it's been a massive change and yes, for the better.
12:32And now we've been able to do actually what we wanted to do, which was our whole concept.
12:36We still do worldwide barbecue, but on more of like a dining setting, which I think we're
12:42doing well so far.
12:44It was, I took like, it was, I'd say along the way, wouldn't it?
12:47Everyone was telling us to fucking stop.
12:49You know what I mean?
12:49Because we were doing all the cooking out of my mum's bungalow.
12:53So like, it was just, she'd come home from work and she used to cook.
12:57So she'd get in from work and she'd just be like close to tears.
13:00And I'd be glaring Jamiroquai cooking.
13:03Jamiroquai?
13:03Yeah, a bit of Jamiroquai in the kitchen.
13:04I'd just turn up after work, pull my van in, walk in their house, took Jamiroquai and
13:08brought up home and just carry on cooking.
13:10I'd see her, we'd have a job on a Sunday and I'd see her on a Saturday and she'd be
13:14sitting
13:15there like rocking.
13:16Yeah.
13:16Like a mad person.
13:17I can't do this.
13:18I can't do this anymore, man.
13:20I was like, don't worry mum, it'd be alright.
13:23What does your mum see now?
13:24Yeah.
13:25There they come.
13:25Well, they eat for free of course.
13:27They love it.
13:28They deserve, you know what I mean?
13:30We wouldn't be here without it.
13:31If it weren't for them to, we wouldn't be here at all.
13:33Because they signed off their bungalows, our kitchen.
13:36Yeah.
13:36So as soon as they'd done that, they signed themselves up.
13:38So we were there every day, nearly every day of the week for like four years.
13:42It was madness.
13:43Three or four years.
13:45And again, me just rocking up after work, starting prep.
13:47Like you would in any kitchen, but it's their house.
13:50And like, they put up with a lot of shit.
13:52Yeah, all the fat, you know what barbecue's like.
13:54They're taking fat from the house.
13:55Do you know what I mean?
13:56Also, our smoke hole was inside the house.
13:59In the garage, yeah.
14:00It was in the garage.
14:00So we used to have it half in the house, because it was an open garage.
14:04So they're house sunk or some smoke here.
14:07They're losing shit.
14:07It was their retirement house as well.
14:09So it's their, let's get away with murder.
14:11Did you know that Toast powers over 140,000 restaurants across the United States, Canada,
14:17and UK?
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14:20I am on the Toast customer advisory board.
14:22They are proud sponsors of this show, Restaurant Influencers.
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14:30If you have questions about Toast, if you're thinking about bringing Toast on to be your
14:35primary technology partner at your restaurants, please reach out to me.
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14:42You can reach me at Sean P. Welchef on Instagram.
14:46Once again, thank you to Toast for believing in the power of technology, the power of storytelling,
14:51the power of hospitality.
14:53Back to the show.
14:54I think what, what I appreciate about your story is the truth about opening a restaurant
15:01is there is no fucking business plan.
15:03No.
15:04Like everyone thinks like, oh, I have a proper plan and this is what's going to happen.
15:07And I'm going to open the doors.
15:08But like, it's much more like what you described where you're literally just figuring it out.
15:12Well, it shows how much we figured it out.
15:15Cause we went from a building site to a kitchen and that shows in our pricing and then not realizing,
15:19oh, there's VAT past the second point.
15:21Yeah.
15:22None of our pricing was correct.
15:24Obviously when we first started this, we just wanted to give everyone everything.
15:26So portioning was a problem.
15:28Yeah.
15:28So we were selling like, what we sell now is like an 85 pound tray.
15:31We were selling that for 45 pound at one point.
15:33No.
15:34Can't do that.
15:34It turns out at the end of that residency, when you sort of look at how much money you've
15:37got, it's like, oh, we're glad to go backwards.
15:39Yeah.
15:39It's like, oh, that wasn't very successful.
15:42We flew to Texas.
15:43That's been coming back from Texas.
15:45We're both so skid.
15:46Yeah.
15:47We were like, how are we even going to get through this?
15:49We haven't got, we haven't got a home.
15:52Do you know what I mean?
15:52Like, so basically when we finished the exit, we had to take everything that we had.
15:55Yeah.
15:56Which was for the smoker side, the smoker got hired back to my dad's drive.
16:00So we've got a 500 gallon pit put on a, put on their driveway.
16:03Put on their driveway.
16:03Yeah.
16:04Like literally all the auto shams.
16:05It's not a big house as well.
16:06And cause I was buying, I'll go on auctions and I'll look for equipment and I've got like
16:11Five auto shams.
16:12Five auto shams turn up.
16:13Cause I was getting them.
16:14One works.
16:14One works out of them.
16:15We spent 2,000 on five on one works.
16:17Two out of five.
16:18Two out of five.
16:19Two out of five.
16:19But yeah, it was just like all them things and obviously them just sort of letting it
16:23happen.
16:24You know what I mean?
16:25Like there is that, like with mum and dad as well, as much as they were like telling
16:28us to stop.
16:29Like why can't you have a normal job?
16:31You know what I mean?
16:31When can't you have a, there's nothing normal about restaurants.
16:33They support us.
16:35They support us.
16:35Like I said, when we moved out of Excel, we moved back in.
16:38Yeah.
16:38So we moved a kitchen into their garage and made their garage then it back into a kitchen
16:42just to do, I think it was five winter pop-ups that was during a storm in the truck.
16:47So we lost, so the VAT build just kept on growing.
16:50We didn't make any money.
16:51So it was like, and then we'd done a pop-up here for Burnt Faith and I think we brought
16:56quite a few people here during the storm.
16:58And I think it showed that we could, we could.
17:01And the fact that they had indoor seating and that was like in a country where it rains
17:04majority of the time, you need that.
17:06You know what I mean?
17:07It's crucial really.
17:08It's all ended up working out quite well.
17:09Yeah.
17:10It was a bit like touch and go that January before we signed here.
17:13It was like, we might end up back.
17:15We were looking to go back on building size because we had like, what is it?
17:18Like 20 grand VAT build to pay with no income.
17:21Wow.
17:21And it's just like, and they need, they take it off no matter what happens.
17:24Yeah.
17:25They've got to have it.
17:25So yeah, it's it.
17:27Just constant momentum forward though, isn't it?
17:30You know, you say like you're telling anyone that wants to do anything.
17:33First of all, you've got to really want to do it.
17:34There's a lot of people that are like, oh, I want to do it.
17:36No, you don't.
17:37No, you don't.
17:38You don't want to do it.
17:40I think they see the glory on Instagram.
17:42They see all the like the good posts like the number one in the world.
17:45They don't see how you get there and like, even though we've got there,
17:48it's still struggling.
17:48It's hospital.
17:49They don't see you sleeping on the bench before the fucking restaurant.
17:53And the cleaner coming in dropping drum and bass, which normally I don't mind on a Saturday
17:57or five in the morning.
17:57But when you're not sleeping and you're about to work, it's not, it's not the one.
18:01So.
18:02It's constant.
18:03You just got to be positive.
18:04You got to really believe in what you do.
18:06Oh yeah.
18:06Believe in your product.
18:07When you, like we were on the truck for like two, three years and like we won't sell him
18:11mate.
18:12You know what I mean?
18:12Yeah.
18:12Yeah.
18:12But every week we'd be in our heads, we'd convince ourselves that next week's going to be different.
18:16Yeah.
18:16Obviously stupidity.
18:18Yeah.
18:18It was different.
18:18Do you know what I mean?
18:19You're like, oh no, it'd be fine.
18:21We're going to sell them next week.
18:23So we'd make the same amount.
18:24We'd lose it.
18:24All the money that I'd work in the week would get put on that.
18:27Oh no, this is, we used to smoke, we used to have a potato dish, like a smoked potato
18:30dish.
18:31We used to smoke 40 kilos of potatoes a week and probably throw 35 kilos.
18:36At some point someone could order.
18:37Because you're going to a market and you're like, there's these thousands of people coming
18:41and you need to be able to sell it.
18:42And it's like, oh, they don't like us.
18:44So all right, sweet.
18:44Now that's going in the bin.
18:46Every week throwing them.
18:47And it was such a long process for them.
18:49It was, it was a long process.
18:51It's just the belief, the belief gets you.
18:52When you know you've got something good.
18:54And to be honest, we were, what else were we going to do with ourselves?
18:56You know what I mean?
18:57We're too short of a fail.
18:58Yeah.
19:00It's got to work.
19:01We're too far.
19:01Yeah.
19:01Just keep moving forward.
19:02Tell me about how you promoted the brand.
19:04Was it on Instagram primarily?
19:05It was just, yeah.
19:06So when we started, I took over the Instagram.
19:09Just Black Cactus Barbecue.
19:10Yeah, just Black Cactus Barbecue.
19:12At first it was Black Cactus Coffee Smoke.
19:14And it was just like, we've never, I've never really looked into algorithms or anything
19:18like that.
19:18I just post whenever I want to post.
19:20Yeah.
19:20Photos or videos or both?
19:21Photos.
19:21Mostly photos.
19:22Yeah.
19:23We used to try videos, but I just weren't very good at them.
19:26And I used to watch them back like, nah, I'm not posting them.
19:27Why are you watching them back?
19:29Because, I don't know.
19:31Just to see if they're good.
19:32No, they're never good.
19:34They're never good when you watch them back.
19:35That's the problem.
19:35That's why you post it.
19:36Yeah.
19:36You got to just post them.
19:37No, but I did used to post it and then I was like, I'm not posting them anymore.
19:40I can't.
19:41But no, it was just taking photos and just trying to promote ourselves as much as possible.
19:46Yeah.
19:46And still have our personalities to still use, I know it sounds like gimmicky, but you see
19:51a lot of businesses, they then go down that route and it all becomes very, like corporate.
19:56Yeah.
19:56Yeah.
19:56Like certain music that's trending.
19:58You just play stuff.
20:00At the minute we've got a band on music on our Instagram.
20:02I don't know if it happens when you get to a certain followers.
20:04So I'll just find real, we like housing music and speed garage like UK, dance music.
20:10So I'll just go on like videos of like live sets and like drops of music and just take
20:15that because you can add it to your thing.
20:17Yeah.
20:17So now our Instagram is just full of speed garage, which is, I don't think very Texas barbecue,
20:21but it's our, it's our personality.
20:24I mean, I think what's interesting is like you have a Texas barbecue con, but it, it couldn't
20:28be further from Texas.
20:30Like it couldn't be for it because it's you, it's you guys.
20:32Yeah.
20:32Well, we just, it's, it's, it's Texas style.
20:35So it is Texas.
20:36It's an homage.
20:37It's a, it's out of respect.
20:38It's well with flavors.
20:39Yeah.
20:40We always make sure we, we do it properly.
20:42It's not just a gimmick or like a cash grab.
20:45We, we, we want to make sure that we aren't.
20:47Where is the cash?
20:48You grabbing all this cash?
20:49Yeah.
20:49Exactly.
20:50It's not a cash grab, but like we make sure that it's, it's as good as you can get it.
20:55And like, if you went to a restaurant, I was selling like Jamaican food.
20:58Yeah.
20:58We've got like Caribbean brisket dish.
21:00I want it, I want it to be as authentic as possible.
21:03So you've got to forgive it.
21:05It's respect and search its history and do it properly really.
21:08So that's, we just want to, we make food that we want to eat and we want to eat everything.
21:12So it ends up in our menu really, it's not really.
21:14Yeah.
21:15There's not, we don't have any, cause we haven't been trained or nothing.
21:17We don't have any like, you should do this or you should do that.
21:19Or you should use flavors with that.
21:21Cause we just cook what you want.
21:23You know what I mean?
21:23If you've got an idea, if it works, it works.
21:25If it don't, it don't.
21:26Like it's really, it's really simple.
21:28Like I think there's too many people get caught up on things.
21:31In Texas, mainly it's changing a bit now.
21:34Yeah.
21:34It's like, you can't change certain flavors because that's how it is.
21:38You know what I mean?
21:39Or how it's served.
21:40Yeah.
21:40And it's now they're getting more the run through of like sort of the new school.
21:44We still get people review now that say, oh, it's not traditional sides of this and that.
21:49And it's like, well, you've come, you looked at the menu before you come in.
21:52We're not there.
21:52There's no such thing as.
21:53Even though actually our Saturday Texas tray is probably the most traditional we've ever done.
21:58Yeah.
21:58But it's still got a hard twist on it.
21:59But it's the most, it is essentially pit beans, mac and cheese and slaw.
22:03Uh-huh.
22:04But we've done our own versions.
22:05It's not that, but it's the most traditional trade we've done.
22:09And it was funny because before we'd done it, someone come to the past and was like,
22:12I love your barbecue because we come here and all the sides are different.
22:15It's not pit beans, mac and cheese.
22:16And I was like, oh, great.
22:17Next week, that's what it's going to be.
22:18So you're not going to like your return.
22:20It's changing back.
22:21Yeah.
22:21What do you think the biggest misconception is about barbecue in the UK?
22:24Yeah.
22:25It's cheap and it's cheap in America.
22:28And it's also easy because you can just stick it on and walk away.
22:32Yeah.
22:33You've got to remember in the UK, barbecue is still in its very early stages.
22:37They're only just getting to Texas barbecue.
22:40So you do have the real fanboys and fangirls out there that do love it.
22:44And they do know the history and they know the crack.
22:46And they are very appreciative when they, but there's also the people who come here and
22:50they've watched Barbecue Showdown or they've looked at Sank on Instagram.
22:53They see a massive short rib and they expect that's what they're going to get for like
22:5710 pounds.
22:57It's not happening.
22:59You must be on.
23:00You must be mental.
23:01Yeah.
23:01You don't understand the price.
23:02And it shows when you then get them negative comments.
23:04They're like, oh, it's so expensive.
23:05It's like, it's not.
23:06We're actually not making a lot of money off what we do.
23:08It's just, we're trying to just run week by week.
23:11So that's.
23:11It's the wood as well.
23:12Yeah.
23:13The price of wood in comparison to the States.
23:15I was chatting to Dave at Burn Bean.
23:18He was saying that the, what we spend 1200 quid on costs them $190.
23:22Yeah.
23:23Like they, because obviously wood out there, it's just.
23:26And the wood selection they have out of the States.
23:28And it's like, the humidity.
23:29It's like, what humidity?
23:30We've just got damp everywhere.
23:31Yeah.
23:32I think over here.
23:32It's just damp.
23:33It's just damp all the time.
23:34They don't actually understand how it's cooked as well.
23:37Yeah.
23:37You know what I mean?
23:37I think they think it just comes out of the night.
23:39That's what they like.
23:39Oh, it's not.
23:40It's not.
23:42It's, it's, it's not supposed to be, you've got to hit a certain point on the fat starts
23:45rendering.
23:46It's got to be served at a certain temperature.
23:47So if you sit there for 10 minutes, taking photos of it, it's going to, it's, it's going
23:51to oxidize and it is.
23:52Yeah.
23:52It's cut meat with very fatty cut meat.
23:54So that's also saying that goes cold very quick.
23:57So they're the, I think they're the misconception, especially in the UK about barbecue.
24:01What have you guys learned about the technology that you're using?
24:03Like obviously toast being here at the, at the shop that, um, what have you guys learned?
24:11Yeah.
24:11I suppose obviously it's tracking, see what's selling best really.
24:14Like that's probably like quite a big one for us.
24:16And if we put like, before we did used to put specials on, but it's more to do with like
24:20desserts.
24:21Now we used it the other week, just tracking in like how much they're selling to obviously
24:25run it with costs and seeing if we're actually making on it.
24:28But really, obviously what we spoke about earlier, the new software coming in, the links
24:33up with toast.
24:34It's going to change things big time, especially help us with like costing.
24:38Cause we're, cause we're in it a lot and we're not, we're not taught that.
24:40Yeah.
24:41It's going to be nice having the help in hand.
24:43What do you think you wish you knew before you got into the restaurant business?
24:46Like what was the biggest like lesson you think?
24:51Uh, staff probably.
24:53Staff, what about staffing?
24:55How to hire, how to keep them or both?
24:58I dunno.
24:58I think with us, like we've always had like employees that don't treat you very well.
25:02Yeah.
25:02So like our like theory behind it is just would like look after the employees, but then
25:08Employers, not employees.
25:09Employers.
25:10Yeah.
25:12A lot of them also see that as weakness and just completely take the piss.
25:15Yeah.
25:16Do you know what I mean?
25:16So it's kind of like, that was probably, should be a little bit more, I dunno, like hard
25:20in that sense.
25:21It's hard to like, especially being new as being a boss.
25:24Cause like before this, we were never bosses.
25:27Yeah.
25:27I've always worked on to someone.
25:29So it's that fine line between being someone's friend and being a boss.
25:33That's, that's caring.
25:34Yeah.
25:34Carrying and also getting run over.
25:36And then that person then taking that, like you said, as weakness and then coming entitled,
25:40like that has been a big learning curve for us and not taking everything so personally
25:44as well.
25:45Cause it is.
25:45But we learned when we went to, we said, chatting with Ernest and he was just talking
25:50about entitlement and it just reiterated everything about the disease within the business.
25:55You know what I mean?
25:56When someone's like, Oh, I should be doing, I should have this.
25:58I should have that.
25:59But you don't actually understand.
26:01Like I think a lot of workers don't actually understand like the backbone of the business
26:05and the pressure actually on the owners just for you to get.
26:08It's a low margin.
26:09And that's, and that's myself as well, being employed and not understanding back then.
26:12And now I look back at myself and I was like, Oh, I was a dickhead.
26:16Yeah.
26:16Like now I understand being in that position is like, Oh man, it's a lot different when
26:20you're actually running things.
26:21So the national restaurant association show came out with statistics last year in the
26:25United States.
26:25And in the United States, 43% of restaurants don't make any money.
26:29They actually lose money.
26:3043% of restaurants that are open, which is like, it's a staggering fact.
26:38And the average of the ones that are making money, it's at like 2.5% profit margin, which
26:45some people do not understand if a, if they sell a dollar, if we sell a dollar at a restaurant,
26:50you are lucky if you're making 2.5 pennies, 2.5 pennies on a dollar.
26:57So like, it's a very, very hard business, which is why it's so important to focus on branding,
27:03storytelling, using technology to leverage.
27:06So you understand how much your costs are, because as you know, costs are.
27:11That's, that has been our biggest learning curve.
27:13Yeah.
27:13Is the cost of labor costs, food costs.
27:15Because it's hard to put your own work into that because you just, because it's yours,
27:20you feel like you work for free, but you do have to.
27:23You have, if you don't value yourself.
27:24Yeah.
27:25When me and him step away eventually.
27:26Yeah.
27:27We've got to pay people to do our jobs, which.
27:28A hundred percent.
27:29A lot of work.
27:30Yeah.
27:31So it's, it's, it has been a big learning curve.
27:34That's, that's a lot of it, especially.
27:35Do you guys have, do you have any restaurant owner mentors?
27:38Like anyone locally?
27:39We've got, we've got restaurant owners, but like head chef.
27:42Yeah.
27:44Yeah.
27:45Yeah.
27:46Yeah.
27:46Like sort of, I talk a bit like with our meat supplier.
27:49Yeah.
27:50Chilera.
27:51Yeah.
27:51Manu owns that.
27:52And we've got a mentor.
27:54He was like a chef in industry for like.
27:56Matt Burgess.
27:57Really talented.
27:58So we like chat to them.
28:00Like, I'm like, we ain't afraid of like saying that we don't know.
28:03You know what I mean?
28:04Cause the only way you.
28:05That's one thing we try to have in our kitchen is like, there's no egos.
28:07We're still learning.
28:08I'm like, we're not trained.
28:10We're not trained.
28:10The best restaurant.
28:11The best restaurant tours.
28:12I mean, I've done thousands of interviews with people that have hundreds of locations,
28:16thousands of locations.
28:17Those people ask the most questions.
28:20Oh, you got it.
28:20Those ones are the most humble.
28:21Yeah.
28:21Because they know that how fast things change.
28:23It is the same in the business aspects and actually in the kitchen.
28:26Yeah.
28:26Cause we have some very talented chefs.
28:28Yeah.
28:29And I'm like I said, we're not from a culinary background.
28:31So there are still things I'm learning and new techniques and even just like organization
28:37and being like cleanliness and stuff like that.
28:39Like just real, you learn if you go work in professional kitchens.
28:43It's just like for us, our first professional kitchen was one we're running.
28:47So you're learning on the job.
28:48So you should never sort of be afraid to ask questions because that's how you get better.
28:52If you want to be the best, you've got to keep on improving.
28:54Don't just settle.
28:55You've got to keep on trying to improve.
28:57So there's always things to learn.
28:59With the staffing as well.
29:00It's like we always talk to them about empowering them and what they actually want.
29:04It's like an end goal.
29:05Do you know what I mean?
29:06And like trying, like essentially they're giving a lot to us.
29:10Yeah.
29:10Do you know what I mean?
29:11Instead of it just being, we don't want people just clocking in and taking dough.
29:14Yeah.
29:14Cause it's pointless.
29:15Yeah.
29:15You've got to have love.
29:16You've got to have time.
29:17You've got to want to be.
29:19Yeah.
29:19We want them to be proud.
29:20Generate a good product.
29:22Be proud of what they're doing and not just like, oh, I'm coming to work.
29:24And wouldn't be proud.
29:25Like when we put photos online, like, oh, fuck me.
29:27I've done that as well.
29:28It's not just black cactus.
29:30It's all of us together.
29:31What is, what are you guys hours?
29:33Like, how do you, how do you run?
29:34Cause I noticed it's Google says.
29:36Oh yeah.
29:37So we, so we run three day service.
29:39Three day service.
29:39Yeah.
29:40Friday.
29:40So we run like three rotating menus.
29:42Okay.
29:42Yeah.
29:42Sounds mental to people outside, which it is, it is, but it's more, it's, it's better
29:48for us cause barbecue is so long.
29:50Yeah.
29:50We can only do brisket and like the pulled pork once a week.
29:54Yep.
29:54So we've had to build around that cause cause he's the pitmaster.
29:57That's all we've had.
29:58That's the only pitmaster we have.
29:59And I'm the head chef.
30:01So that's all we've got.
30:02We've got like, we've now got four chefs, which is the most we've ever had.
30:04So we are doing a lot of food.
30:06So we've had to do, we do our smoked burgers, which are rated very highly at the minute,
30:12but we make, we make our own blending house, but it's using all our trim for our briskets.
30:16And all of that goes into the sausage.
30:17We also run hot dogs on that day.
30:18We also do chicken as well.
30:20So it's like a separate little like burger sort of restaurant menu.
30:24And then the Saturday is our Texas style barbecue, which is our brisket pulled pork.
30:27So it's the longer cook.
30:28The barbecue plates stay the same on both days, but the Sunday is what we call like our seasonal.
30:33Last, throughout spring we had, in the UK, roast dinners is like a traditional Sunday.
30:39So we were doing English barbecue.
30:41Yeah.
30:41We're using tri-tip as our beef.
30:43I love it.
30:43We have a maple, garlic, turkey.
30:45Cause in, when you, when people have our turkey, they, that's the first thing they say is like,
30:49Oh, it's amazing.
30:49Cause they're just used to dry Christmas turkey.
30:53It's like, you know, that's sort of the dry Christmas turkey.
30:56Smoked turkey is.
30:57That's what I mean.
30:57Smoked turkey is different.
30:58Especially when you brine.
30:59When you do it the right way.
31:00Yeah.
31:01And it is, it just changes.
31:02It changes everything.
31:03And it's amazing.
31:04Yeah.
31:04I had roast potatoes, smoked gravy.
31:06So it was like a roast dinner, but it was a barbecue tray.
31:09So it was like, and now with this, this for summer, we're doing like European continental
31:13flavors.
31:13So we've got like a French tri-tip.
31:15So we use the cafti pari butter, you know, beef tallow to brush it with.
31:19Then we've got piri-piri turkey, so Portuguese.
31:21Yep.
31:22We're doing like kielbasa, which is Polish sausage.
31:24We've got potatoes bravas using dry-aged ex-dairy cow beef fat on the potatoes.
31:30And like a salsa rato garlic early.
31:32And then we've got like a Caesar salad, but with a charred hispy wedge.
31:36So we're still using the same aspects from our Sunday tray previously, but just different
31:41flavors, just showing how versatile all the meat is.
31:43So it's trying to educate, because in the UK, brisket is, everyone just wants brisket.
31:48And I think, and sometimes they don't even know what brisket is.
31:51No, they have no idea.
31:52People come to the pass and tell us, our brisket's amazing.
31:54And I'm like, oh, they just hate tri-tip.
31:56Do you know what I mean?
31:57We know.
31:57We're in California.
31:58We're very well aware.
31:59It's just a very, it's a catch, it's a buzzword.
32:02And with our menus, it's sort of trying to educate, especially people in the UK, that
32:06there's water barbecue than just brisket.
32:08So we do set trays where they have to, if they want the brisket, they have to buy everything else.
32:12Yeah.
32:12It's not come and get, I want a half pound of brisket.
32:15Yeah.
32:16Because if that's what we did, that's all we'd sell.
32:19Yeah.
32:19So with the set trays, it lets them try everything else, like the house link, the sides, they
32:25would just come and buy a brisket, which we find a lot everywhere else when they do it
32:28by weight.
32:29It's just the brisket sells out, they have leftover turkey.
32:32No one would buy that.
32:32Yeah, it's good as well.
32:33Like you're getting to try all different aspects of barbecue.
32:36But it works for us.
32:37And everything else we offer as well.
32:38And it also works on a financial point of view.
32:41So then three day service, like I know they're three different menus, but it does work for
32:45us and it is easier logistically than just doing brisket and them longer cooks all throughout
32:50a week.
32:50Yeah.
32:51It gives us a rest essentially on certain days.
32:54But then we're in from Monday.
32:57So we work seven days a week from prep to service.
32:59Yep.
33:00So it's very, it's very labor intensive.
33:04Is there anything that is unique?
33:06You guys do any specials?
33:07Limited time offers?
33:08Yeah.
33:09So we do like, so where we change seasonally, we change the menus and like change all the
33:13sides.
33:14We do like monthly, monthly special flavors on our pork belly burnt ends.
33:18We do a special sausage that we change each month.
33:20We do like an ice cream sundae just to keep it fresh.
33:23And then like this month we're doing like a savory glaze.
33:28So I know pork, like especially in a lot of burnt ends, brisket or pork, it's all sweet.
33:32So we've done something completely different.
33:34So we're doing like a demi-glaze essentially.
33:37So it's a veal and pork demi-glaze with soy and roasted garlic.
33:39Yep.
33:40So it's like a completely different take on the burnt ends.
33:42And it just keeps creativity up.
33:44Like I think last month was pretty good.
33:46We had like a, cause it was Cinco de Mayo in early May.
33:49So we've done a Cinco de Mayo sort of.
33:52You guys do Cinco de Mayo here?
33:53No, no, but it's.
33:54I'm not really.
33:55But it's just, it's just like the approach.
33:59So last year we done like, cause it landed on the weekend for the bank colony.
34:02So we've done like a special Mexican.
34:04Got it.
34:05With it.
34:05So it was a sort of a homage to that collab.
34:07Got it.
34:08And it was them flavors.
34:09And then we, we've done like a Mexican Mexican.
34:12So Doritos Cola with burnt lime glaze.
34:15And everyone went mad for it with like pork, pickled watermelon radish.
34:18It's just using things that you don't really, you don't normally ever get in barbecue.
34:22Yeah.
34:22I've not really seen it before.
34:24But the ones that everyone went mad for, we've done a bacon burnt end bits with a maple
34:28brandy glaze and then finished it.
34:30So it was like a play on like deviled egg.
34:33So you know, when you get deviled egg, you get the, you get the spiced mayo and then you
34:36get the maple bacon.
34:37So we've done the maple bacon, but with a deviled egg mayo on top with chives and the
34:41sugar bacon.
34:42Sounds awesome.
34:43So it just keeps creativity up.
34:44This month sausage is pretty good.
34:45Yeah.
34:45We're doing like a Thai sausage.
34:47Yeah.
34:47So we've got chicken and pork.
34:49Yep.
34:49With dry aged beef fat and pork fat.
34:52And then yeah, we've got rice in there as well.
34:54You know, I mean to soak up all the fats and then all like the fragrance.
34:58All the spices.
34:59It's a banging sausage.
35:00You know what I mean?
35:01It's delicious.
35:02You laugh at me.
35:02That was a good explanation, mate.
35:04What have you got there?
35:05It takes the mick.
35:06Tell us about the collaboration with the brandy.
35:10It's, well, it's the only brandy distillery in the UK.
35:14Really?
35:14Yes.
35:15No way.
35:15Yeah.
35:16So it's a very, so we're like very two niche brands and it just goes quite well together.
35:20And it's like, it's also quite a good like theatre.
35:24Yeah.
35:24When people come in, they see the distillery.
35:26Yeah.
35:26They all get, everyone gets a free shot of brandy to try it.
35:29So they, they know what it tastes like.
35:30All the cocktails are amazing.
35:32They all, they're all like based on classic cocktails, but they use brandy in them.
35:35Interesting.
35:36And it's like, and we use it sometimes, we will use it for our, when we had a, they
35:41had an apple, an apple brandy, and we use that in one of our poorly glaces.
35:44So we always do collabs with them as well to bring their flavors with ours.
35:48And it does suit pretty well.
35:49Yeah.
35:50They run tours as well, don't they?
35:52Very good.
35:52If you guys were talking to other people, entrepreneurs, potential business owners are
35:58thinking about quitting their job that they hate and getting into this crazy business.
36:03What advice do you wish that you had?
36:08Just create a product that you really believe in.
36:11Yeah.
36:11Do you know what I mean?
36:12I think too many people think that, cause you get a lot of people messaging and asking,
36:16you know what I mean?
36:16And being like, Oh, I want to do this.
36:18I want to do that.
36:19Well, first of all, just create and just spend time creating something that's unique.
36:22It's got to be unique.
36:24Like you're competing with like places that have been around for a while.
36:27And I also think like we were saying earlier, like you've got to really want it.
36:31You've got to really, and you've got to be willing to sacrifice everything, relationships.
36:36Unfortunately.
36:37Everything.
36:37That is the reality of it.
36:39There's too many people that think they can just rock in.
36:41They see the Instagram.
36:42Yeah, they see Instagram.
36:43You're nothing.
36:44You know what I mean?
36:45You ain't got it.
36:46I think that's the best advice is that like, you've got to be ready for down times.
36:50Yeah.
36:50There's a lot of them.
36:51Dark times.
36:52There's a lot of lows.
36:53Like, don't get me wrong.
36:54The highs are really good, but it's hard.
36:56It's not, it's not an easy, it's not an easy job, especially barbecue.
36:59It's so late.
36:59Yeah.
37:00So if you're going to do it, make sure it's good and make sure you're ready to sacrifice
37:07everything.
37:07Essentially.
37:09It sounds very bleak, doesn't it?
37:10Yeah.
37:10We just always used to say like each week, just try me 1% better.
37:14Yeah.
37:14You know what I mean?
37:15And then you think after 30 weeks of that, the product is just going to become better and
37:18better and better.
37:19And then you've got something that is unique.
37:20Like if, if Aaron Franklin walked up those stairs right now, what was the one thing you'd
37:26want him to try?
37:28Not the brisket.
37:32Not the brisket.
37:34You don't want the brisket master to try the brisket?
37:36I don't know.
37:37I'm joking.
37:38Nah, nah.
37:39I don't know.
37:39I'll be a bit like, nah, that's a bad bit, mate.
37:42It's the best part of that.
37:45I don't know.
37:46I don't know.
37:47All the dishes.
37:47One dish.
37:48Oh, the croissant.
37:49Yeah, the croissant.
37:50Really?
37:51Yes.
37:51The croissant.
37:52Okay.
37:53We'll have to make one.
37:53We actually have the ingredients.
37:54We've got the stuff.
37:55Okay.
37:56All right.
37:56That's the one that sort of, we've done it at the Burnt Bean as a special and it went
38:02down pretty well.
38:03Sweet.
38:03We were selling it in a car park, like.
38:05Oh, yeah.
38:05To no one.
38:06To no one.
38:07You know what I mean?
38:08Winter mornings, like literally rocking up in a van, just knocking it out and no one
38:13really wanted eating.
38:14No.
38:15Not at all.
38:16Yeah.
38:16Look at us now.
38:17We appreciate you guys for watching.
38:20You can reach out to me.
38:21I'm weirdly available at Sean P. Welchef.
38:24Instagram, LinkedIn are the fastest.
38:27Thank you to Toast for this opportunity to come all the way to London to meet these entrepreneurs.
38:34These guys that are, this is why we do the show.
38:37I mean, honestly, we started the show with a big, a big hope to be able to do really cool
38:40shit and meet amazing people all over the globe.
38:43Congratulations on the success.
38:44I know you guys are just getting started.
38:46I know it's not going to get any easier, but it's really, the podcast was phenomenal,
38:52man.
38:52Like the, all that matters is the truth.
38:54Yeah.
38:54You guys shared the truth.
38:56That's why we do this show.
38:57Ultimately, you know, you, the listener, the watcher, the viewer, please, if you come to
39:01London, come visit these guys, let them know you saw the show.
39:04Support them.
39:05If you've got a place for them to open up, if you want to collab, reach out.
39:09Black Cactus Barbecue.
39:10We'll put links into the show notes.
39:12Anything else you want to let our audience know before we head out?
39:15Big up UK barbecue.
39:17Yeah.
39:20UK barbecue is coming.
39:22It's coming.
39:22We appreciate you guys.
39:23As always, stay curious, get involved.
39:26Don't be afraid to ask for help.
39:27We'll catch you next episode.
39:32Thank you for listening.
39:33If you've made it this long, you are part of the community.
39:36You're part of the tribe.
39:37We can't do this alone.
39:38We started, no one was listening.
39:40Now we have a community of digital hospitality leaders all over the globe.
39:44Please check out our new series called Restaurant Technology Substack.
39:48It's a Substack newsletter.
39:50It's free.
39:50It's some of our deep work on the best technology for restaurants.
39:53Also go to YouTube and subscribe to Cali BBQ Media.
39:58Cali BBQ Media on YouTube.
39:59We've been putting out a lot of new original content.
40:02Hopefully you guys like that content.
40:04If you want to work with us, go to BeTheShow.media.
40:07We show up all over the United States, some international countries.
40:10We would love to work with you and your growing brand on digital storytelling.
40:14You can reach out to me anytime at Sean P. Welchef on Instagram.
40:18I'm weirdly available.
40:19Stay curious.
40:20Get involved.
40:21Don't be afraid to ask for help.
40:22We'll catch you next episode.