- 8 hours ago
Thom Yorke and Harry Styles meet as part of Rolling Stone’s eighth annual Musicians on Musicians series. They first met in Rome a couple of summers ago, when Styles spotted Yorke walking down a side street—both were alone and incognito. Styles grew up idolizing Yorke, calling Radiohead his favorite band ever. Both artists are on a roll right now: Yorke has worked prolifically with his band the Smile and solo, and will tour next year with Radiohead. Styles is currently on his record-breaking “Together Together” tour, with his Number One blockbuster, the bold club-influenced experiment Kiss All the Time. Disco, Occasionally. Yorke was honored this spring at the U.K.’s Ivor Novello Awards, where Styles gave a heartfelt tribute. They met up in London, talking in depth about songwriting, fame, fandom, suffering from imposter syndrome, refusing to repeat past successes, walking for inspiration, crying onstage, and so much more.
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MusicTranscript
00:00Do you travel with a laptop?
00:01Uh, my laptop has been dead for about six years.
00:05I don't know where the charger is.
00:08We can help you with that.
00:09I know.
00:11I know, I know.
00:22We met for the first time in Rome on a small street.
00:27Yes.
00:27You were playing in Rome that week with a smile.
00:31So I'd just been talking about, I was going to that show.
00:35Was it before the show?
00:36It was before the show, yeah.
00:38And a friend of mine had asked me if we'd ever met and I had said that we hadn't.
00:44So I was walking down the street and I noticed you because you were wearing a hat that said acid
00:50on it.
00:51And I thought, oh, that's a cool hat.
00:53And I was like, that guy's wearing a cool hat.
00:57And then I was like, oh, it's you.
01:00And then I had Moonshate Paul playing in my headphones and I stopped it.
01:08And was like, oh, hello.
01:10Mr. York.
01:11Mr. York, hello.
01:12I was impressed.
01:13And you said, oh, hi.
01:14And then...
01:15No, I said, what the fuck?
01:17Yeah.
01:19Are you doing standing in the street?
01:21And then I came to the show and then we met kind of properly at the show.
01:24Yeah.
01:24I didn't know you were living in Rome a lot.
01:28I had no idea.
01:29So I was doubly confused.
01:31Yeah, it was really like, I think for me, like through that and then the show, it had always been,
01:42you know, you to me had always been that person I was kind of like scared of meeting.
01:48Oh, yeah.
01:49I've got a whole list.
01:50Yeah, totally.
01:52And I remember feeling so like light afterwards, you know, I think of just, oh, oh, people are, people and
02:03they're kind and they're nice.
02:04And it was like very nice.
02:07I was, I was also impressed that you were just walking down the street.
02:10I was like, where's his security?
02:13Because, I mean, I know I can do it.
02:15I didn't know you could do it.
02:16Is that a choice?
02:17In the early days, like when I was in the band and stuff, so much of the like hotel experience
02:24felt very like locked in.
02:30It felt like there was this like, oh, it's not safe for me to like be out in some way.
02:34That makes sense.
02:35And then I remember I had a, I had a girlfriend who was like very outgoing and she was coming
02:42to London.
02:43And I was kind of like, oh, if we just sit in my house for three days, she's going to
02:47think I'm nuts.
02:49So we kind of like walked everywhere.
02:52And it was this realization for me of like, oh, it's fine to be outside.
02:58Like it kind of broke that thing.
03:01And then now it's like changed my life in such a big way.
03:05It's like how you stay connected to the world and like the experience.
03:11And, and, and I read something about like walking being the artists kind of perspective because you're at ground level
03:20and you see things that you just don't see if you're driving.
03:25Yeah.
03:25Everywhere.
03:26I've, it's also a good way to write.
03:29I wrote Wolf at the Door over, I, I was going through a really bad moment and I walked for
03:37like two and a half days, rain, didn't matter.
03:40I had a notebook in my hand and just broke all, and it was, I felt so much better at
03:46the end of it.
03:47But also it's not just the walking, it's the walking past people.
03:51The simple thing of people watching, playing that game of imagining as someone walks by, where they're going, what they're
04:00doing.
04:01All that stuff brings you out of yourself, brings you out of your troubles.
04:04Yeah.
04:05I mean, without it, see, it's really easy to get lost without being able to do that.
04:11I guess I had a similar thing, the different, but you, it used to, it happened for you very young,
04:16happened for me later.
04:17But I remember being on, when we were on tour with R.E.M. and Michael, start figuring out that
04:25like, I mean, well, it was kind of obvious because when we played, I would just hide in the dressing
04:29room before them and never went out anywhere or whatever.
04:32So he started dragging me out and he gave me this trick.
04:36He said, if you don't care, they don't care.
04:39If you're not looking, they're not looking.
04:41And it works.
04:42I remember being in Stockholm, going to some like really busy club and he said, try it.
04:49And it works.
04:50Nobody bothered us.
04:51So there are moments when you will feel vulnerable.
04:55There are moments when shit will happen or like the son will be printing your picture one too many times
05:01and you'll not want it.
05:02Or something.
05:03And I've had that.
05:05It's not an easy decision to make, but it's better than the alternative.
05:09The alternative.
05:09I know people who, who got death threats and then wouldn't leave the house and had security patrolling their house
05:15and all that sort of stuff.
05:18Yeah.
05:19I think if you have something that's very successful, there's a lot of pressure to repeat that, which I'm sure
05:26you'll probably feel or you do feel sometimes.
05:28It doesn't sort of go anywhere because that's like working to commission.
05:33You know what I mean?
05:34It's like, we like those.
05:36Let's not paint that again.
05:37Yeah.
05:37Could you do that?
05:38I remember like some movie, some, some being drawn in to watch some clip of the movie.
05:43We'd really like you to do something like this.
05:47And I was like, use that, you know, that, that sort of mentality of like, we want your name at
05:53the top, but we'd like you to repeat yourself.
05:56But we don't want to ask you to repeat yourself because we know it's rude.
05:59So we're kind of thinking about, you know, it's commercial art form.
06:05So therefore you're always going to get people asking you to do that.
06:08It's an interesting like cycle, I think, because you, you make something that I think connects with people because they
06:19find something in it that you've captured.
06:22Some thing about the like human experience, whether it's like a vulnerability or sensitivity that comes with being human.
06:33And then I think any kind of success around that thing makes it like take on this life of its
06:43own.
06:43Then everything around you kind of makes your experience incredibly not human.
06:49And then moving. Yes. Artificial.
06:53And then, yeah. And then it feels like the kind of goal as to how, how do you shut that
06:57out when you're making stuff so that you can still be making stuff about the human experience.
07:03I've always thought if I was to make music about being in a studio and touring and like all of
07:12the kind of shiny things that come with that and like how wonderful that is.
07:17It's shiny for you, mate. Yeah. It's like, it's not, it can't, it's definitely not interesting to me.
07:23So it can't possibly be interesting to anyone else.
07:26True. What, you know, like I love about your work, for example, is for, for so many people who kind
07:36of look at you in this way of like, oh, you know, in this kind of godlike status in terms
07:44of.
07:46A creative and an artist to still be someone who kind of looks at like, oh, this is like the
07:55gritty part of life.
07:57Like, I think that's, I think that's what's so impressive about so much of your work is that for, for
08:04people to revere you in such a way.
08:09I think. And to still be looking at like, what's under the fingernails, you know, rather than.
08:15What I can think is, I think the reason for that was like, it's as much like having to learn
08:20quite a difficult lesson in, if you have to do lots of interviews.
08:24For example, if you end up having to explain your work in a particular way, when people are like, you
08:34can get picked apart.
08:37And what you've done can get picked apart in a way, which is what you mean by artificial, I think,
08:43really, in a way that's not necessary.
08:45I mean, it used to be a lot worse. Now, I guess it's not as bad, but like, around Kid
08:51A, amnesia, before that, I really struggled by every time I had to try to do something new.
08:58I was explaining it to myself while I was doing it, literally, it's like a form of madness, and I
09:04couldn't get out of it.
09:05The experience of trying to make music, even the experience of being in the studio or listening back to stuff,
09:11became this really weird, hollow thing, because I felt I needed to justify it somehow.
09:17But not justify it in a sort of like, apologize, justify it like, in a kind of like, intellectual way
09:24or more.
09:25And the reason for that was like, I needed to get out of it. I needed to just get out
09:30of the studio. And I needed to just walk.
09:34A lot of that was down to the fact that nobody cares, man. Nobody cares that it's difficult. And so
09:41if you're worried, if you're bummed out that it's difficult, fucking stop. Go and do something else.
09:47Also, like, later on, as you have kids and all this kind of thing, like, the choice to carry on
09:53doing this kind of work, like, you have to enjoy it.
09:56Mm-hmm.
09:56And the enjoyment comes from, like, having to start again from scratch. Every time you start again, you, whatever you
10:05learnt, you've got to unlearn or all this kind of nonsense.
10:09Like, also, songwriting is a very odd, I mean, going to the Ivor Novellos thing. I mean, I don't hang
10:15out with songwriters, but apparently I am one.
10:17Mm-hmm. You know? And you realise that actually songwriting is quite a naive thing. It's like, you can't be
10:24savvy about it.
10:26Mm-hmm.
10:26You can work really hard on it, but the good stuff just happens, and you don't know why. And you've
10:32got to be honest with yourself that you don't know why.
10:34And you've got to carry on being honest with yourself that you don't know why. Yeah.
10:38And when stuff forms that you like, you just grab onto it and you don't let go, you know, because
10:44the stuff you like is you don't know why you like it.
10:47Like, why would, um, Pyramid Song, I mean, it's three chords over and over again, and the same lyric. Mm
10:55-hmm.
10:55How does that make sense? That kind of thing, like, but you like it. You like it. You're not bothered
11:00about it if anyone else likes it.
11:02I've always wondered if part of that is why the idea of, like, imposter syndrome that can come with commercial
11:12success exists,
11:14is I think if you write in that way, there's a part of you that kind of acknowledges, like, almost
11:22feels like you're not responsible for it.
11:25So then if people are like, oh, you've made this thing, and that means that you're this.
11:30Mm-hmm.
11:31There's something in there that feels like, oh, I can't take credit for it. It just kind of happened to
11:36me.
11:37I think I've always found the things that I end up liking the most or, you know, have been the
11:44most special things to me
11:45are the ones where you kind of write it, and then as you're listening back or reading lyrics back,
11:51you're kind of learning something about yourself of, like, you're, like, realising that you've said something,
11:58rather than, oh, I'm going to sit down, I'm going to say this.
12:01Yeah, and you might not realise, and you might record it and track it and everything and not realise until
12:06you've mastered it.
12:08Yeah.
12:08And then you suddenly hear, oh, shit, that's what I meant.
12:11Yeah.
12:11Yeah.
12:12That's right, I think, but at the same time, it's not not you, because you spend, it's not divine intervention
12:21or anything like that.
12:22It's like you, you've got to show up. In order to find these things, you have to show up.
12:28Much like with any job, you develop skills at what you do. If you're a cameraman, you develop skills,
12:34you develop a relationship with your camera. If you are a songwriter, you develop a relationship with whatever the hell
12:42that is.
12:42Mm-hm.
12:43You have to learn to, learn to accept the months of imposter syndrome, where you're like, I don't have anything
12:50to justify all this amazing equipment in my studio,
12:54I can't find anything I like. That's okay.
12:57Mm-hm.
12:58And then, like, you know, you pick up your notebook or whatever, and there'll be one line in it that
13:03sets you off.
13:04Mm-hm.
13:04But the point is, you showed up, because it's really easy not to show up. It's really easy to go,
13:09oh, I'll get to that world. Oh, I know what I'm doing, it's fine.
13:12Because, like, it's the small acts that end up being the big acts. It's really easy to get into this
13:17kind of mentality that everything is a performance,
13:24where it's not everything is, like, searching, in fact, and searching for stuff that speaks to you, not anybody else.
13:33Mm-hm. Someone once, like, described it to me as, like, kind of like surfing, where you can, like, practice
13:40getting up on the board,
13:42and the waves are kind of going, and sometimes you'll be practicing, but there's no waves.
13:47And then if a wave comes, but you haven't practiced enough, you're not going to be able to surf it.
13:52That's right.
13:53And then when they kind of happen, it's like the combination of you've practiced being able to capture it, and
13:58it's something is happening at the right time.
14:00Yeah, you're ready enough.
14:01Yeah.
14:02And that's when it's like...
14:03Or if I'm surfing, you're not ready ever, or you're on the rocks.
14:06Just, like, being open, and I think I used to feel really, like, I've had a big shift away from,
14:15I think I used to feel really, like, labour-focused about art in general.
14:20If it was walking in and seeing a painting and doing that, like, oh, that can't have taken more than
14:25ten minutes or whatever.
14:26And I felt like to justify it out to be in the studio for, like, months at a time and,
14:33like, just in there.
14:34That's your imposter syndrome.
14:36Yeah.
14:36Because that's how...
14:38I'm the same.
14:40Yeah.
14:40I mean, sometimes it's fun, but sometimes you're doing it because you feel you should do it because you need
14:47to stay ahead of the game, or you need to keep proving that you are who you say you are.
14:52I mean, there are good sides to it, but there's a point where it just doesn't give you anything back,
14:56and it can really freak you out.
14:59Because you've been there for weeks and nothing's happening.
15:02That's when you rely on other people.
15:04Yeah.
15:04I mean, I don't know about you, but, like, I don't really get much done in front of the studio
15:08on my own.
15:09Mm-hm.
15:09You know, I get stuff done super quick when I've got someone in front of me to show it to.
15:15Right.
15:15I'm like, uh, running around trying to find my notes.
15:18Yeah.
15:19Could be this, it could be this, it could be this.
15:20But if I'm on my own, I'm like.
15:23Yeah.
15:23I feel like it's, it's such a, it's like a real line to ride with that because I still feel
15:31like I get it on stage sometimes where I think the kind of sweet spot is where it, where you're
15:41like relaxed in that kind of flow state where it feels like, oh, this feels really easy.
15:48Like it feels like it's just happening and this is great.
15:52And then I kind of click over to like, oh, it feels too easy.
15:56Am I not working hard enough?
15:57You mean on stage?
15:58Yeah.
15:59Like we're not.
16:00Okay.
16:00It's like when it feels most natural is when I think the show is at its best, but then I
16:07have this voice of like, it shouldn't be this easy.
16:10Actors have the same thing, right?
16:11It should be.
16:11Yeah.
16:12The joke with Radiohead is always like, we'll have, you know, moments in the show where like, oh my God,
16:18we're so great.
16:18And exactly that moment someone fucks up every time without fail.
16:25We all look around going, Ralph.
16:27Yeah.
16:28How do you find the, I guess in the studio mostly like the, like how different is it for you
16:36in terms of how much do you enjoy the kind of pros and cons of like when you're making music
16:43with the band versus making stuff by yourself?
16:46Like, do you like the kind of what the friction can make in that scenario or, or do you tend
16:55to enjoy like, oh, I'm going to have this idea and actually I get to just, I'm going to just
16:59see this all the way through.
17:01It wasn't until after kid A, I remember quietly saying to Nigel, I've got all these things and I just
17:08want to do them on my own.
17:09It doesn't make sense to try and include anybody else, you know?
17:13Yeah.
17:13Up until that point, it was just a really alien concept.
17:18We've known each other a mind boggling number of years now.
17:21We, we all know each other's musical strengths and musical weaknesses.
17:26So you're spending a lot of the time working around that.
17:30I mean, we haven't worked, we haven't been in the studio together for a long time.
17:34So I don't know how it would actually feel now.
17:36The upside of that is like, you get this sort of, it has to go through all these different filters
17:42and all these different perspectives and all these different kind of tastes.
17:46And because of that, it strengthens it because the point is that whatever the idea is, if it survives all
17:52this, it becomes like so much bigger than the sum of its parts.
17:56Mm-hmm.
17:57When you work on your own, it's much harder to get that.
18:00It's also like the relationships you develop with the people you work with and you write with are weird relationships
18:07because they're, sometimes this person contributes, sometimes this person contributes, sometimes it's what happens in the studio.
18:17And Nigel's like making shit happen and you know, it's all these different things.
18:22I don't know how to answer that.
18:23I know that when I work on my own, it's quick because it's just me.
18:30I mean, with the smile again, it's totally different because Johnny just generates ideas all the time.
18:37Skinner works faster than any human being I've ever met and can respond to literally, as you probably know, anything
18:42you throw at him.
18:44And I'm in the middle of going, all right, well, why don't you guys record this because I don't understand
18:49what's going on and I'll go away and think about it.
18:51Or, you know, I'll try to get in the middle of it and I don't know what's happening.
18:55You know, I'm like lost.
18:56My favorite experiences in the studio, I like when someone's playing something that's good and I don't understand why it's
19:02good and I pick up a mic and respond to it.
19:05And then I will listen back to it, like you're saying, like I'm trying to explain about, like, despite yourself.
19:10I have no idea who that was or, is that us? Yeah, that's us. That thing. That's the best bit.
19:16Yeah.
19:17You know, and that's when you have, you only get that when you have other people.
19:20You'll never get that just with yourself.
19:22Do you find it like when it comes to releasing stuff and in the making it process, do you find
19:31it more vulnerable to be working and putting out your own stuff where although it's so much of you for
19:42it to be like, it's just me and there's no like, you know, someone says, oh, I don't like this.
19:47That was Johnny's idea. It's fine. Is it any more vulnerable?
19:52No, I don't get that. I mean, it's all vulnerable.
19:54I mean, but at the same time, like if I don't, I don't know about you, but like if I'm
19:58finishing a record, if I can't like sit down and listen to it and be comfortable with it and happy
20:04with it, it's not going out.
20:05Mm hmm. So, you know, the vulnerable bit happens when you're writing it.
20:13Yeah. When you're trying to finish the fucking lyrics, that's when it's the worst words. Right. How do you how
20:19do you do words?
20:20I've never found like the one method, you know, it's it's never it's never been like, I write a poem
20:31and then I put it to music or I write this and then I do it this way.
20:35I think what is so exciting to me about doing it is so often the good stuff tends to come
20:44from like a few weeks, a couple of months or whatever of like, oh, I've got nothing.
20:50I don't have anything. It's all gone. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you write something and you're like,
20:57I really like this. I don't know why.
21:00And when that comes in lots of like different ways, if it's like I have a line or I have
21:06a piano thing or something that you just like or a melody that's mumbled over something, usually there's a word
21:15in it.
21:16Yeah. And then it's a lot of like, oh, I'm building a song around these three words that sound great
21:22over this thing.
21:23Like that is the correct process. Yeah. In my opinion, you've got like a few words that hang everything off
21:29and you don't understand why.
21:31Yeah. And that's like the most exciting, even though it's painful because then you have to spend weeks trying to
21:36fill in the blanks.
21:36I think sometimes with some of the some of the best stuff, I think it's more difficult, obviously, to be
21:46concise with something.
21:48And I think some of the best stuff when there's like a like I know I like a melody when
21:53I kind of overwrite the song.
21:55So I like I'll write like a bunch of verses and there's a bunch of lyrics and stuff that are
22:03floating around.
22:04And then if you have all of this, like all of these lyrics, then I'm like, oh, you take these
22:10three verses.
22:11And actually, if you take these lines and make them one verse, it's actually much more powerful in what it's
22:20saying.
22:21And it's like, yeah, better than explaining everything, you know, I find that the also it tends to be you
22:32tend to choose the lines that just sit musically, even though you're like, I'm not entirely comfortable with how the
22:41words themselves.
22:43Yeah, but it sits well. And that's when you get that thing where you listen back to it months later
22:49going, oh, that's why I kept it.
22:51Yeah, you know, because I think obviously when my laptop is full of discarded lyrics like that, and I have
23:00a kind of a fun process with Stanley Donwood, though, because we end up using those quite a lot for
23:07other things.
23:07Mm hmm. Because he's a writer. So I like throw all the discarded stuff at him when we're trying to
23:13do the artwork and he comes back with it.
23:15And like, this is good. This is good. And he'll start doing like jumbled collages.
23:21Yeah, stuff out, which makes me see what we've been working on in a different way, which is really nice.
23:25So it's all valid. But the stuff that ends up being in the song is kind of there despite itself.
23:31It's there because the music needs to be there. Like, I mean, it's possible to say, no, I'm just going
23:39to put this in because I want to say this and make it work.
23:43It depends on how you're singing. It depends on whether it's melodic or whether it's you're talking or whatever.
23:50Like, if you're talking, then you can say what you like. I mean, honestly, the thing I'm most jealous of
23:54always will be is people who can just free flow onto a mic and put it out.
24:01I listened to a podcast that you're on. It was about vocals.
24:08Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you said something about kind of using your like you think of your vocal as
24:16like one of the instruments in the song.
24:19And that's kind of how you tend to approach like composition now. Yeah.
24:23Is that something that you noticed when that changed for you?
24:30Because in it, you say you don't so much kind of sit and like write a song and be like
24:35this, you know, I'm going to sit here and this is the song and this is how it goes.
24:38Yeah. Obviously, if you go back to like the bands, for example, like High and Dry or something.
24:44Exactly. That is like a guy with a guitar singing a song.
24:49Yeah. Yeah. That particular one, I wish I hadn't. But, you know, there's kind of nothing wrong with that.
24:54Yeah. Like and it's not like I still it's not like I don't do it. Yeah, I did this thing
24:59in Rome just introducing a film the other day and someone asked me.
25:04So what is your relationship to film music? You know, do you do you do you see yourself just as
25:11a songwriter?
25:12And I think that that sort of ties in with what you're saying, because I don't listen to a lot
25:18of song singer songwriters.
25:21I listen to like a lot of mad old folk music or I listen to film music or I listen
25:26to electronic music.
25:28The banging away on the guitar thing is like sometimes when it really speaks to me, but not a lot.
25:34I'm not quite sure why that is. I think probably because we grew up when there was a real renaissance
25:40of that and like the bend was that.
25:43But I think also by the time we got to Kid A, I just was excited about what else you
25:48could do with your voice really.
25:50Yeah. You know, like when Johnny and Nigel set up this thing for Kid A where Johnny's just playing the
25:56Martin and I'm just picking out random lines from my top hat that I had.
26:02And that became that became the vocal. Right.
26:05And I'm not singing that at all. I'm literally speaking it.
26:09Also, I think it's not I don't think it's a coincidence really.
26:13Also, the you know, one of my favorite singers ever is Michael Stipe, who first two or three records didn't
26:23even bother writing the lyrics or rather if he did, it was like stream of consciousness.
26:28I'm not going to make this explicit. I'm I'm the human sound in the middle of all this amazing jangling
26:34guitars and stuff.
26:35And also, like, I don't sometimes I don't like the lyrics being the point. Mm hmm. You know, I mean,
26:44mm hmm.
26:44Sometimes it's really exciting that there's just this sound. Right. I got notes that. Ah, homework. Do you travel with
26:53a laptop?
26:55My laptop has been dead for about six years. I don't know where the charger is. We can help you
27:04with that.
27:04I don't know. I don't know.
27:08Where are your ideas? In your pocket? On my phone. On your phone. Yeah. Yeah. I use GarageBand a lot.
27:14And, er...
27:16You should keep that to yourself, don't you? And, like, voice, and, like, voice dance. Really?
27:20I love voice dance, yeah. Wow.
27:22Primitive of, er... Well, I mean, in a way, that's good. Yeah.
27:26I remember my mini disc. That's all. That was my best friend.
27:29He's like, yes, I remember being in primary school, yes. I also remember that.
27:36The voice note thing, I like something about it being, like, it's kind of blankest version.
27:48Yeah, yeah. It's the pencil drawing. Yeah, I think I like that. I think, like, the thing that I try,
27:55I guess, and work towards the most, and the thing that excites me the most is, like, when I start
28:01a record, or before I've started something, or you have, like, a bunch of the songs for a record, and
28:08I'm still kind of like, I have no idea how this is going to end up sounding.
28:13Right. I think if there was any, that's kind of the scariest version to me.
28:18I'm surprised, though, because the last record is very much, it sounds like it was developed in the studio.
28:22With an intention.
28:23It doesn't sound like it comes from voice notes.
28:25That one was less from voice notes.
28:27I see.
28:29Yeah.
28:29That one, yeah.
28:30I mean, there was a few, it's kind of, like, moments in this. There's, like, the kind of orchestral thing,
28:37or, like, the piano songs. There's a couple of, like, much more straightforward songs.
28:42And then, yeah, there's probably three or four kind of moments that I think are the most, like, down the
28:48middle, like, there.
28:49So the rest are worked up in the studio?
28:51Yeah, it was mostly done in the studio this time.
28:54Written in the studio?
28:56A lot of it, yeah. I think it was just a, just a, like, where I felt like I was
29:03at in my life, and, like, music that I was experiencing.
29:07I want to, like, melt the parts of my life together. Like, I started going out dancing a lot more,
29:14and I really didn't want it to be, like, oh, I'm listening to this music. This is kind of where
29:20I'm at. And then I go in the studio and be like, well, I have to make this sort of
29:25music instead. It was, I think it was really bad.
29:28Feeling. Yeah. I think it was really, like, I know that feeling very well.
29:33I've just come from this place. Yeah.
29:35I want that beat to keep going, or I want, you know, like, that's kind of, it was a lot
29:42about, for me, I think, what I was experiencing at that time in my life.
29:47It was like, like, I want to be on stage feeling, like, in the middle of it, like this. And
29:54that was, that was kind of the thing that informed the record the most.
29:59I mean, that was my favorite, that's kind of my favorite part of the show, where you literally do that.
30:03There was a generosity to that, which I thought, yeah, that's, that's really cool.
30:07Mm-hmm. And that, that is clearly someone who's discovering this thing and is, wants to share it, you know,
30:14that sort of honesty of it was very cool.
30:16Mm-hmm. I was really into that. I mean, it's also very difficult to take that kind of music into
30:21those places. Mm-hmm.
30:22You know, it's much easier to just make yourself totally deaf DJing in a club in Berlin and thinking that's
30:28okay, and it is okay.
30:30Dance music has got a lot to offer and it's not, it's not just one thing.
30:35We went through this phase when Radiohead were on tour, we had Caribou supporting us, and I was DJing with
30:42him afterwards.
30:43It was crazy, you know, finishing the show and then starting up at a club at one or two or
30:50even three in the morning and then, well, that's a day off, maybe the next day if you're lucky.
30:55Or not. Mm-hmm. I know that feeling. I want this. Yeah.
30:59The reason you brought that, I was asking you, like, yeah, but the new one you didn't write off voice
31:04notes, right? Mm-hmm.
31:05So that means then you're changing the way you write.
31:09I mean, I've always written a lot, like, in the studio.
31:12Right. I think I tended to...
31:17What it used to be, I think, was, like, a lot of, like, voice notes and little pieces of things,
31:23or it would be a line or something,
31:24and then I'd start things and then take them in and finish them there, and this was the first time
31:33it was like,
31:34oh, I'd done something at home, and I'm like, oh, I think this is the song. Okay.
31:38Yeah, because now you have a studio at home. You work in it, or you work with someone at home?
31:42I work with someone there, yeah. Yeah.
31:44I mean, I've only just got to the point now where I can turn my own studio and know where
31:48everything is.
31:49Uh-huh. It's taken me a long time.
31:52But once you have a place like that, and, yeah, it changes how you think about writing anyway, you know,
31:59because you could just endlessly mess around and then just grab one piece.
32:03Mm-hmm. That's it. That's what makes me want to sing. That bit there. Fuck the rest of it.
32:08Yeah. I'm just going to use that bit. No different than jamming around on an acoustic guitar.
32:12Mm-hmm. It just takes up some hard disk space. That's all.
32:15Yeah. But that's why I travel with a laptop. There's upsides to it and downsides to it, to be honest,
32:21because it means you've got everything at your fingertips, so you can fiddle endlessly,
32:25like get really excited about a synth sound, and then, you know, take it home and show it to Sam,
32:30and he's like, okay, well, there's a real synth over there. Why don't you go and use that?
32:34Mm-hmm. Laptops have that kind of bad habits.
32:38It's obsessive tendencies, which is not good, but the upside is you have all this kind of tech.
32:45You're taking everything out. I don't know. When we were doing Kid A,
32:51Nigel had a Pro Tools, the first Pro Tools set up,
32:55because we were having to record strings. We couldn't get them on to the tape and all this stuff.
33:02And I was like, I need that. Because it's always a bit of a laptop, a computer head.
33:10So when I saw that in the studio, I'm like, I really, I just wanted to learn it immediately.
33:15Mm-hmm. And that really changed how I thought about music straight away.
33:18Suddenly, I have a multitrack in my bag, you know. I was gonna ask you, where's home?
33:26Home?
33:27Do you have more than one?
33:28I think when I'm in London feels the most like home. And I'm not from here.
33:33Where's like your stuff? Where's your important stuff? London?
33:38Yeah, London. Yeah. Because I've lived in my house for like 12 years or something.
33:45That's the place where I feel like, I really feel like, been so many,
33:54I've been through like so many versions of myself even in the same space.
33:59Like in there, it's the most I feel like, I really like grew up in this house.
34:05Right.
34:05In a big way. I remember like moving in. It was right after like my 19th birthday or something.
34:12It's been through like a lot of changes and like things, but it's kind of the place where I'm,
34:19it's like in my kitchen there is the most like, oh, this is where I live, you know.
34:24Right. Do you cook?
34:26I do. Yeah.
34:27You're probably pretty good, aren't you?
34:28All right.
34:29I'm fucking terrible.
34:30To stay on you for a second, if I may, I was curious, like doing this interview, for example,
34:37or the Iva's thing, for example, I think everyone communicated almost like a surprise that you were willing to be
34:45celebrated in some way.
34:47Mm-hmm.
34:48And I was, am curious about how your relationship with that has changed over time in terms of like as
34:59someone who's,
35:00who's so innovative, like how much of it has always been like a need to like reject any sort of
35:11nostalgia to assure yourself that you're like moving forward.
35:15To me, it feels like maybe just being in like a happier place to be able to kind of realize
35:24that you can do both.
35:26Like you can still innovate and also allow people to kind of celebrate and for you to celebrate things that
35:33you've done,
35:34whether it be the Iva's or touring and playing kind of a deep selection from your catalog to be able
35:43to play those songs and not feel like we're living in the past right now, you know,
35:48and just be like, we made something really beautiful and I'm going to play it and that's beautiful.
35:53And also, I can also still be moving forward.
35:57You're right that like I'm in a slightly better place nowadays, but I'd be lying that if I didn't say
36:04that, that I,
36:07something like getting a Iva Novello fellowship was not deeply confusing for me.
36:14I admire a lot of the people that they've given those awards to.
36:18So that's really kind of why I said, well, yeah, I would do that because, you know, some of these
36:26people are my heroes,
36:26but have a very, very strange relationship. God, this is really hard to explain.
36:33Um, I have a very strange relationship to that element of my work.
36:42Mm hmm. Navel gazing?
36:44No, uh, just, uh, the kind of exterior.
36:49Yeah. Like, cause I find it hard to believe in it. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
36:54Which is, I think the reason like, you know, you talk about this moving forward thing is that the moving
37:01forward thing is like,
37:03that's what I believe in. Mm hmm.
37:06That's easy to believe in, cause that's like new. And I don't have to explain it. Mm hmm.
37:11And I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm happy. Mm hmm.
37:14When the light is put on you and it's like, you did this. I'm like, yeah, I did.
37:19But I can't tell you why. And maybe someone else can. But like, I often feel in these kind of
37:25occasions.
37:26I even did after the Radiohead tour, even though it was like in the middle of it, it was really
37:32fun.
37:32My response to it afterwards was like, ah, to crash. Mm hmm.
37:39Like massively crash in terms of confidence, self-confidence. It took me months to like, well, it took me like
37:48starting on my own record again.
37:50Two months later to go, okay, I'm good now. I'm fine. Mm hmm.
37:56Because, yeah, I just have a really odd relationship with it. And I'm like, I've just grown used to that.
38:01Like the Ivers, to be honest, your speech that you made, his speech was great.
38:05Number one, cause you came with a notebook and read it out the notebook. And number two, I was like,
38:09yeah, man.
38:09Just cause it was really honest and personal and I could relate to it. Whereas when it sort of feels
38:18like a business and it feels like you're part of a business and the cameras are running, all that kind
38:26of stuff.
38:26I got this like legacy feeling about all of it, which I can't really explain and I probably should figure
38:32it out at some point.
38:33But like, I'm happy like moving in and out of it. Yeah. Something I'm curious about.
38:40I wonder if it's something also that maybe happens when you have children and then keep creating, because it's the
38:53idea of that is like you make something that continues to exist, you know?
39:00And like, it's not like you make, you have children and then think I have to keep innovating. So I'm
39:07done with them.
39:08It's almost like both a connection to the things that you do in your life and have done in your
39:15life.
39:16Yeah. It's really important. They all integrate.
39:18And can keep informing who you are, but also allowing to celebrate like the things that you've done as part
39:26of like, you're, you're really proud of these things.
39:28And there's people who are proud of those things and it becomes a different.
39:32You probably, you probably saw Agnes and Nora. I was like, they were very emotional about it.
39:37And like, and Diane, my wife was as well. And, and my friends, I do it for them because if
39:44they're emotional about it, I'm like, okay, that's, that's why I'm here.
39:48Because for me, I feel quite numb about it. It doesn't make sense to me.
39:51Like Agnes and Noah having grown up with their dad doing this, like the, I, one of the things I'm
40:01most proud of is like they've, some of the attitude that I have is rubbed off them as they grow
40:07up.
40:07I can see they have that kind of attitude to what they're doing, like quite fearless about being creative and
40:14quite open and not like embarrassed.
40:18I mean, obviously like when you kids a teenager, they're like, Oh God, my father, blah, blah, blah. But like
40:23now it's, it's really nice.
40:24It's a, it's a good thing. Um, I feel super lucky about that. Cause it's, it wasn't easy for a
40:30long time.
40:31There's like a kind of an option of like when, when the, the thing that comes with like, you make
40:38something that resonates with people and then that noise and all of that and your experience becomes
40:48so existential of like, you know, what, what is it for and what is this for and generally what is,
40:54what we all doing here and all of that stuff.
40:58There's a version of that is kind of like, Oh, it's all meaningless. So like, why bother? And then on
41:03the other side of that is it's all kind of meaningless.
41:05So you can kind of let go and enjoy it a bit. When you say meaningless, which element meaningless?
41:12I think general, like any sort of existentialism towards meaning of life, you know, like any sort of work.
41:21Yeah. I think like in writing about the human experience and like what it means to be a human in
41:31the world and like, what is all of that?
41:33Like, I think as someone who makes something, there's a, there's a version of sort of accepting, you're not in
41:42control of it.
41:42Like you saying if like when it happens that I think can be really terrifying to be like, Oh, I
41:51don't control anything.
41:52Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
41:54But the other side of that is actually, it's, it can be really liberating to be like, Oh, I'm not
42:00in control of this.
42:01You can kind of like let go. And I wonder if part of that is. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're fair
42:05enough. Like, um, you need to like retain a healthy skepticism.
42:14About all of it. Um, but then, then like, I also think I would never cast it in a kind
42:23of like, I'm trying to talk about the human experience at all.
42:28I would never think of it like that. I think that's kind of like the art school side of me.
42:34Mm hmm. By the time you've done three years of art school and like, you've gone through the process of
42:39explaining and watching other people trying to explain their work and get trashed for your work and all this kind
42:48of like, you end up thinking that the process is the point.
42:54And that's, that's the kind of, I think means Danny went to the same art school and we both came
42:59out with the process being the point.
43:01Yes, there's an end result. The real juice is the process. The real juice is like, I don't know what
43:08I'm doing, but in, in finding the things that speak to me and assembling them and presenting them and then
43:17moving on, that is my act.
43:19Mm hmm. Right. What, what you see and whether it speaks to you or whether I'm looking for that because
43:26I need to say something is like, none of those things are linear.
43:30Mm hmm. And in order for good shit to happen, you need to believe in the process more than anything
43:39else.
43:40Mm hmm. Kind of makes me think of some of my favorite records. You can almost hear that in the
43:45records in the way that they've been made.
43:47They were just enjoying putting this stuff together. Mm hmm. They were like, and, and they didn't care.
43:53Same thing as like looking, digging for lyrics and ending up using the lyrics that just speak, that just means
43:58something to you and you don't know why. Right?
44:00Mm hmm. Like the more you do it, the more liberated you become from the end result and the more
44:08liberated you become, the more you see, uh, if you're lucky, the fact that the, what you do might speak
44:17to me.
44:17You, you know, you speak to people as, yeah, you're not responsible for that. Mm hmm. You know, in a
44:22good way. Not like, oh, I don't care.
44:25Yeah, yeah. Because you do care. But like, you just want to move on. Mm hmm. Right. I mean, the
44:30worst thing for me about OK Computer was like, when we finished that record, we'd been already playing those songs
44:35too much.
44:37and like then when the manager said to us like now you're going to go and talk for two years
44:42i'm like i literally begged them i can't i can't do it i can't do it i need to move
44:47on two years
44:48later we were still going you know and that was just really fucked up because i the moving the
44:54moving on thing is like yeah that's not a luxury that's entirely essential you know i think
45:02everybody has this different ways of dealing with this like personally i rely on the sort of thing of
45:08um not doing it for too long i wish i could do it for a long time i can't because
45:15it sort of starts
45:16to get disconnected and a bit like oh i've got this move here and we do this bit here and
45:20uh it doesn't
45:22feel very spontaneous and uh the whole point of a live performance is rediscovering with the people
45:28you're standing in front of something about this thing that you wrote and sharing it with them
45:33so that demands that you sort of as much as a spectator as a performer maybe that's the way i
45:41put in it but i don't think you i used to but now i don't think you need to dig
45:46deep in order to find
45:48what you need to sing this song or whatever like i think it's the opposite you need to just totally
45:53let go and go if i'm not feeling this right now i'm good with that because maybe in 10 minutes
45:58it's going to really hit me like a train which often it does you have so many moments in your
46:04life
46:05like i think everyone does where you have those songs if you like music at all where you're like
46:13oh this is also a song or this is also a movie or something i remember like seeing pulp fiction
46:23for
46:23the first time and being like oh this is a film as well and hearing like shine on your crazy
46:30diamond
46:31for the first time and being like so confused by it that this was like a song and that was
46:37what you
46:38could do also oh right now you know with like the common police video for example like i remember
46:44watching that and being like oh this is
46:50so like brilliant i feel like so much of your music has that weight where it really like you just
47:00remember hearing it it's also different from each other in a way that is i think so in
47:08inspiring just to see someone be so consistently great in so many different ways
47:14and so in so many different ways like it's always it can be hard to timeline it sometimes you know
47:23in
47:23terms it's not there's not this obvious like well it was this then it was this then it was this
47:28then
47:28it was this it kind of it's all its own thing in a way that i think just makes it
47:34feel so like fresh
47:36always i've just always really like been drawn to stuff like like i love like codex or like true
47:45love weights or something yeah i just have always loved that sort of i mean everything in its right
47:52place is it for me you know it's always been like
48:02so so much of that i mean i find it so inspiring you know everything's right place was my response
48:08like it was to not being at all right we had this empty house we had a grand piano and
48:14we had a mattress
48:15that's the first thing i did when we moved into this house i mean if i mean lost fit felt
48:22lost or ever
48:23since the okay computer thing and when i found that okay weirdly for that one that was it was like
48:29a mantra it was like it wasn't i wasn't i wasn't thinking oh i'm writing a song i was just
48:36really
48:37enjoying playing piano in this empty house and i have one cd which was at arvo pep for ultras and
48:43that's
48:43it and it was during the winter and there were storms all the time and just had a mattress it
48:48was so
48:48great just playing this riff over and over and over again to make my feels make myself feel better
48:55you know i love that thing of it's a rise in the post you plug it in you don't read
49:03the manual you
49:04just start messing about and you find something whether it's a synth or a drum machine or guitar or
49:09anything establishing a relationship with this construction this thing and responding to it and
49:15responding to what people thought you might like about it what you don't like about it all this
49:20stuff i've got so much out of that kind of process over the years uh that i that i figured
49:28that it must
49:30be part of what writing is part of what our particular process is there are just some days when nothing
49:36happened and then some days you pick up something you're unfamiliar with and the unfamiliarity means you
49:42have to make a sort of step you have to step across and that stepping across means like okay uh
49:52i don't know why i like what's happening here and the i don't know why i like thing is what
49:59music should
49:59be right which is why strangely enough algorithms don't produce an awful lot of that you know like
50:07the human creativity is is in is is kind of like the same kind of thing as a scientist trying
50:14to solve
50:15a problem and uh he has all the things set up and he's gone he's tried everything and he can't
50:21figure
50:21it out he's in the same kind of place right he's in the like i don't know where i'm you
50:27know i'm lost now
50:28i've tried everything and then he goes away and he sleeps on it and he comes back
50:33and then something clicks because why because he's unfamiliar but because he can't make sense
50:38of something and then he can or she suddenly makes sense something falls into place for me though like
50:48it's just kind of where the risk falls is kind of inverted on itself of like where
50:56you think it might be someone else might feel like trying something different it feels really risky
51:04in some way or like straying from what people like about your music feels like a risky thing but i
51:11think
51:11the trying to recreate for that reason is is that's the risky thing because that that's just awful that
51:19to me is the the like terrifying part the idea of doing that and i think any any time like
51:28sometimes
51:29this the songs that we've like done in the studio and you finish it and you're like i think this
51:35is a
51:35great song i think it's really good but it doesn't excite me at all maybe because it has something that
51:44reminds you of something else you've done or whatever it is that it's just it's not you're not
51:49learning anything i should like this yeah i should i should like it but you just don't and i mean
51:55i had
51:55that with codex all the way through it like the rest of the band forced me personally to finish it
52:01everyone was like you're crazy man all right so sometimes for me at least so much of the studio
52:11experience of making something is almost trying to block out the fact that anyone's going to listen
52:19to it for a second to just make oh yeah what it is doing it for you yeah you have
52:26to just be making
52:27like what do i want to listen to at this time in my life what is it that i feel
52:31like i want to do say
52:33make and the fact that people are going to hear it feels like that happens like like the realization
52:41of that feels like it happens later and i think the live playing music to an audience is the part
52:49where
52:51you're embracing the fact that people listen to it and that it's connected with people and i think
52:57there's a i think for me the the kind of emotion that happened at the end of the london shows
53:05was like
53:07i think it was just a realization of that those shows felt so much to me like a culmination of
53:16so many
53:17people's support i think i think that's the bit like that part feels so external i think you like i
53:27you make the thing and then how many shows you play is determined by how many people want to come
53:33see it and i think what was emotional what was emotional for me was it felt i was kind of
53:43realizing i
53:44think how deep it is and how deeper it is how much deeper it is than kind of any one
53:54moment or one
53:56song or any sort of like fluke thing it just felt like supported kind of in a way more than
54:05like
54:06we're here because we want to hear this song that you've done or we're here because we like when you
54:11used to play that one or it just felt like we're here because we believe in what you're doing and
54:17i think that's what it felt like to me and i think that's why it was why i found it
54:23so emotional was
54:24i think also you have to give you uh you have to give a lot of yourself you have to
54:31give a lot of
54:32yourself and that makes you very open right i've heard people say to me like careful with that
54:41because you're like you're exposed to all these people and all this kind of thing and like yeah
54:47it doesn't bother me did it did it did used to it doesn't bother me anymore i mean i think
54:52if
54:52you're sensitive enough to want to write sensitive enough to like be aware of the part of you that
55:02wants to say anything if you're sensitive enough to like care enough about a song to be like it's not
55:10right yet like i have this idea and i want it to be right and i want it to be
55:15great like there's a
55:17sensitivity there that needs it to be great and i think if you're sensitive enough to do that to feel
55:25it and then to communicate it and then see it through put so much of your life into making sure
55:32this
55:33synth sound is correct then i think you're sensitive enough to feel when
55:39it does moments land on you in in in what might come back at you i think a lot of
55:46the time
55:47when you're making stuff you're kind of trying to reject what's coming back at you to remain like
55:52sort of beginner's mind of like how do i how do i go back to before anyone
56:02liked this song that i did or anything like that you're always trying to get back to a sense of
56:07like
56:08starting again so those i think those moments where you kind of let go and open up and allow
56:15it all to come in and you get to feel
56:20that i think it is a wave of something that you don't live with every day so it's quite like
56:26certainly don't bro i guess if i was going to say recent when when we did the first uh radio
56:33show in
56:34madrid we had to do this thing where we had to walk through the audience never done that before
56:42like walk through the audience and we had to stand on the stage getting prepped before we went up up
56:49the first time we did that after i don't know how many years of
56:54the whole all of us the whole band were like okay keep it together keep it together because
57:01i just wanted to i already wanted to burst into tears because i hadn't been exposed to whatever that
57:06was for so long uh and to walk through the middle of it and then um was was was i
57:15never forget it i mean all
57:16of us we were like holy shit holy shit remind also you you mentioned uh beginner's mind do you know
57:23the book yeah this is a cute book okay good very important very important which brings us back to
57:30walking the artist's perspective where we began there's the bow there's the seal
57:47so