00:00EU ambassadors are close to finalising about 1,650 new additions to the sanctions list against
00:06Russia. This comes less than a month after Alisher Usmanov, often dubbed one of Putin's
00:11favourite billionaires, and Michel Friedman, a banking magnate, were controversially dropped
00:16from the lists after pressure from France and Slovakia. For more, we can head now to Strasbourg
00:21where the human rights activist Bill Browder joins us this morning. Good morning, Bill. Thank you so
00:25much for joining us. Has the EU just shown that its sanctions regime can be cracked by political
00:30backroom deals, do you think? Absolutely. And I think that this is a shameful decision to let these
00:37two guys off the sanctions list. And I think it's actually a dangerous decision, particularly in the
00:42case of Alisher Usmanov. Here you have a situation where he was effectively taken off the sanctions
00:50list because he was, because a hostage was swapped for him from Azerbaijan. And so what does this say
00:58to other Russian oligarchs who continue to be on the sanctions list? They could encourage other
01:04countries to take hostages to put into this type of negotiation. The fact that these types of
01:09backroom deals, these dirty, dirty deals are possible really puts a very dark cloud over the
01:17whole sanctions program. That's the thing, Bill. Do you fear a precedent now is set after this saga?
01:27A very bad precedent has been set. So imagine that you're one of these other thousands of oligarchs
01:33sitting in Russia. And I should point out that all these oligarchs, these sanctions hang over their
01:39head. It's the worst thing that could happen to them. Every single one of them is scheming and trying
01:44to come up with ways of getting off the sanctions list. They've now seen these two different things.
01:48One very nasty legal fight against the Luxembourg authorities. And the second is this whole hostage
01:56negotiation with the Azeris. And these other oligarchs are going to be saying, OK, this is a
02:02precedent. This is something we can do. The Europeans will blink. And therefore, we're going to try to use
02:08these same things to get off the sanctions list. Now, there is one saving grace in the whole situation,
02:14which is that the current sanctions list has now been renewed for three years, which means that
02:19there is a bit of time, three years of time before that before we come up with another one of
02:25these
02:26moments of weakness. But it really is a terrible thing at the same time that we have Russia bombing
02:33civilians on a daily basis in Kiev and other cities around Ukraine.
02:37Well, that's the thing. And you know Russia well. You know how Putin takes. Do you think he's feeling
02:41any pressure from his inner circle?
02:47Putin doesn't feel pressure from anything at the moment. The only the only way that that this war
02:53will stop is not because people inside Russia are going to put pressure on him. There's no politics.
02:58There's no civil society. The way that this war will stop is if Ukraine inflicts enough economic
03:04damage on Russia that they cannot afford to continue this war. And the only way that's possible is if
03:11the West continues to support Ukraine militarily and if the West were to get tough on Russia as far
03:18as oil sanctions. We haven't done that yet. And we we give Russia. I mean, I say we give Ukraine
03:24enough to fend off Russia to some extent, but not not to the extent necessary to get Putin to back
03:30down. So would you argue, Bill, the sanctions, the sanctions are just not working? Because as you
03:34say, the war is still very much ongoing. Ukraine facing its fifth winter of war and it's actually
03:39worse than ever. Well, I'm not saying the sanctions aren't working. I'm saying sanctions are certainly
03:46putting pressure on Putin. But Putin is ready to starve his whole country completely in order
03:53to keep the war going. If the war were to stop, Putin would effectively lose power. And if he loses
04:00power, he would lose his life. And so he's ready to make unbelievable sacrifices. But at the same time,
04:05the sanctions are working in the sense that that it's grinding Russia down is causing Russia economic
04:11damage. We're seeing the refining capacity of Russia decline by somewhere between 20 and 40 percent.
04:18We're seeing inflation going up. We're seeing all sorts of stuff. But but at the at the end of the
04:23day,
04:24sanctions aren't stopping the war because Putin is ready to suck up his gut and and and deal with
04:31the pressure. And so what I'm saying is that there should be more sanctions, not not less sanctions
04:37in order to try to put put Putin in a position where he just can't physically afford to carry on
04:43the war. And just finally, Bill, you find yourself in Strasbourg at the European Parliament in Strasbourg
04:48this morning. You've been meeting with the likes of Kayakalas. Is your message getting through to
04:52them? Well, I'm speaking to I should say I'm pushing on an open door at the European Parliament
04:58and and certainly with with the officials of the European Commission. I think everybody here believes
05:04that that Ukraine should be supported, that Russia is the villain and we need to do more.
05:10It's it's obviously complicated because we also have these situations like what we just
05:15started this conversation with, with France putting pressure on the European Union to take
05:22Usman off off the sanctions list because of backroom deals. But but at the end of the day,
05:26there's a lot of people here. Most people here, almost everybody here supports Ukraine,
05:31which is certainly hardening. OK, Bill Brighter speaking just there from the European Parliament
05:35in Strasbourg. Thank you so much for joining us.
