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Καθώς οι απειλές ασφαλείας και οι υβριδικές κλιμακώνονται στην Ευρώπη και ο πόλεμος στην Ουκραία μπαίνει στο πέμπτο έτος, οι Βρυξέλλες εστιάζουν στην αύξηση των αμυντικών δαπανών. Ποιος θα πληρώσει και πώς;
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03:02The problem is that we are not spending it European.
03:06And as my colleague said, this is a lack of efficiency.
03:10We have 18 battle tanks.
03:12The United States has one battle tank.
03:14And 27 production lines, a big message coming out of this summer today.
03:17How do we solve that problem?
03:18I mean, in some ways it's clear.
03:21What is the biggest strength?
03:22If you think about the European Union, what's our biggest strength?
03:24It's the common market.
03:25But the problem is we, for the last 80 years, have kept out defence out of the common market.
03:30There is no common market of defence in Europe.
03:31We have 27 bonsai markets of defence.
03:34And that is expensive, that is weak, and that is fragmented.
03:37So we are actually in Parliament.
03:38In some ways we are then ahead of other European institutions.
03:41We have actually called, I was the reporter for an initiative report,
03:44for the creation of a common market of defence, of finally getting bang for the buck.
03:48I think that is what's lacking, and this is what the European Union really do.
03:51But are our member states on board with this?
03:52Is there political will?
03:53It looks like more countries are putting themselves first in this field.
03:56Well, when we look to the speeches, there is political will.
04:01So you believe the speeches?
04:02Well, that was my second point.
04:06After the speeches...
04:07Because as we've seen today, it's easy to deliver a speech, right?
04:10But after the speeches, we have to act.
04:13I mean, when I started in the European Parliament two years ago,
04:17and I talked about Article 42.7, a lot of my colleagues were looking to me and saying,
04:23what are you talking about?
04:25But after the aggression words of Donald Trump towards Greenland,
04:32and Denmark was saying, what about Article 42.7?
04:37Well, then everybody said, okay, we have to talk about this.
04:43and that is what we have to do, to implement existing articles.
04:48Last week, we had the president of the commission in the European Parliament with the State of the Union
04:54saying we not only need an Article 5, which is a mirror clause of Article 42.7 in the European
05:04treaties,
05:04but also an Article 4.
05:06And we need a European Security Council.
05:09That is something that we together are already asking for more than a year right now.
05:14And you mentioned, of course, the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen.
05:17We can actually now take a listen to an excerpt from her very speech,
05:20her State of the European Union, that she delivered in Strasbourg recently.
05:23I will propose together with HRVP a new European security strategy.
05:30In other words, a mechanism to flank NATO's Article 4.
05:36And I believe it is time for Europe's own Article 4, an emergency security protocol.
05:43When triggered by one member state, all member states should convene
05:47to coordinate a European response, to deter further escalation and to mitigate the impact.
05:55Your reaction to this, did you take it seriously?
05:58I mean, it's law.
06:00We have Article 42.7, and I think our citizens are well entitled to know what that actually means.
06:06We have seen in some exercises previously that our leaders actually don't know really what it means.
06:11So I think it makes sense to actually see the law we have.
06:14It is there.
06:14In some ways, it's actually more extensive than Article 5.
06:17And we have to see how it works out.
06:19What is important to me is there's no duplication or competition with NATO.
06:23But I think what is really important to me, and that is one point I wanted to add, it's actually
06:27quite essential.
06:28It's not the matter of what politicians say.
06:30I believe in democracy.
06:31Our population, if you ask, if you look at the Eurobarometer, stable 80% of our population say
06:37they want Europe to play a role when it comes to security and defence.
06:40And I think it is time to actually live on that.
06:41And just on that topic of rivalry with NATO, many MEPs reacted negatively to that excerpt there from Ursula von
06:48der Leyen.
06:48What's your view?
06:49Well, I think that the extremes react negatively, but that's...
06:53But some from your party too.
06:54Well, no, not from my party.
06:58We are asking for moving forward already for more than a year.
07:02I think, to be honest, the problem is not in the European Parliament.
07:07The problem is not the Commission.
07:09The problem is that member states still think that they are strong enough to do it by their own.
07:16And that's not true.
07:17I mean, there is a lot of money going on in the different member states for investing in defence.
07:22But not in European defence.
07:25We had a target saying we need 40% joint procurement coming from the European markets.
07:30We are on 17%.
07:3317%.
07:34And that's a problem.
07:35And it's not when the German government is buying German or the French government is buying French
07:41that we are buying European.
07:43That is something else.
07:45And that is what we need.
07:47The common market is a cornerstone of the European Union.
07:50We can deliver if we want.
07:52But then the focus of the different member states has to be also on the European way.
07:58And a second element is, coming back on the quote of Ursula von der Leyen,
08:06we had a NATO summit in Ankara.
08:08And there in the NATO summit was clearly explained,
08:13Europe, you have to do your work.
08:16And that's why we need a European pillar within the NATO.
08:19Not outside the NATO, but within the NATO.
08:22And if you want to fulfil this European pillar,
08:27well, then you need an Article 4 comparable with the European treaties.
08:33Then you need a European Security Council.
08:35Then you need to stop the fragmentation.
08:41and you need critical enablers at the European field.
08:45And just to be as back to the money, because, of course, in Brussels, we're talking about the long-term
08:49budget.
08:50There's 131 billion.
08:51That was the proposal from the European Commission.
08:53But many from think tanks say that's not enough.
08:55It should be around 500 billion.
08:56What's your take?
08:57I mean, it's quite clear.
08:58If you want the European Union to do more, you need more funding.
09:02I think that is clear.
09:04I think there are debates about our own resources at the moment.
09:06But who should pay?
09:07Should it be future generations?
09:08One thing for me is really important here is that we don't go into this false dichotomy
09:13of thinking that we can do all our defence spending, which is absolutely necessary, with the MFF.
09:20That's not what the MFF is built for.
09:21And actually, when it comes legally, you aren't even allowed to buy weapons from the MFF money.
09:25And I think it's really short-sighted, some of the discussions that we are having,
09:30where now some people who always wanted to have cuts in cohesion and social cohesion funds
09:34or in regional cohesion funds, try to justify that with defence.
09:37I think that is really self-damaging in doing Putin's homework,
09:41because not only will that never be enough money that we actually need for defence,
09:44it also really allows Putin to do what he is trying to do with his hybrid attacks.
09:49That is, he's not terrified that much of our armies.
09:51I wish he was more terrified of our armies.
09:53He's terrified of our working democracies.
09:56He's terrified of our social cohesion.
09:58He's trying to divide us from within.
10:00And if we then allow him to create this false dichotomy between social cohesion and security,
10:05that is completely wrong.
10:06You can't have one without the other.
10:08We are doing his own work.
10:09Well, I can see you're both getting warmed up, but it's now time to move on to the next round.
10:15And now I put you in the spotlight to ask the questions, just like you do inside the hemicycle.
10:21Tobias, would you like to start with your first question?
10:22Yeah, I actually have a question, because I know that we've traveled together even to Ukraine on a mission.
10:28So I know that you are very strong points on support for Ukraine.
10:32But in Germany, for instance, right now, we have issues that far right party, the AFD,
10:37might participate in a state government.
10:40that means access to sensitive, classified documents.
10:45And our secret services, our minister of defense is even saying maybe we should stop sending them such classified documents
10:52because there's a very high risk that these parties are giving them through to Putin.
10:57So there's a very clear link.
10:58There's even some debate whether they receive money from Putin.
11:02And my question to you, even on a personal level, is how you feel that some people in the EPP
11:06are actually trying to work together with the AFD on some issues.
11:10And I'm really wondering, is this a trustworthy party if we at the same time have to wonder
11:15if they give classified information to Putin?
11:18Well, for me, it's a quite easy question, because for me, the answer is clear.
11:24No, the AFD is not a trustworthy party.
11:29The AFD is the enemy for the European citizens, the enemy for economic growth, the enemy for our common security.
11:37For me, it's clear as that.
11:39But have you have debates in your group?
11:41Because, like, we've seen WhatsApp chats where they've coordinated on different laws in advance.
11:46It was like it wasn't accidental majorities.
11:48Like, do you have these debates in the group about what extent to cooperate?
11:52Yeah.
11:52We have debates within our group.
11:55Like, you have debates in your group saying do we have to cope and to work together with extreme left?
12:01Because for me, the extremes, extreme left and extreme right, they are all of the same cup of tea.
12:07You can't work with them when it is about how can we make Europe stronger.
12:13When we look to the extreme right, then they say, no, no, no, we don't want this once because we
12:21want to organize this on the national level, not on the European level.
12:24And when you look to the extreme left, they say, no, we don't want to have this on the European
12:30level because the European level, that is the free market, and we are against the free market.
12:35But both, both are enemies for a stronger Europe.
12:40But very popular among the people, as we saw recently in elections in Saxony-Arnold.
12:44Your turn now to address your first question to Tobias.
12:47Well, I know that you are a strong believer for European defense.
12:52And you started saying that we need a common market also on defense.
12:57We agree on this.
12:59But you are also in the German government, and you have the minister of defense.
13:06Can you convince your minister of defense working with European projects and not only with German projects?
13:14You are the best, the most important investor in defense.
13:20That's a huge investment for Germany.
13:22And we appreciate this.
13:24But it would be more efficient if the German minister of defense would take the lead for this European approach.
13:34I completely agree that we need a European common of defense.
13:37The problem is, until we don't have it, we have an incentive structure that creates perverse outcomes,
13:44where it very often actually is in the interest of individual nation states to go it alone.
13:49But in the end, this is not in the interest of Europe as a whole.
13:52So what I think is not necessarily try to go to this government or this government and change that particular
13:56person or government stance.
13:58I think we really need to change something structurally here.
14:01We need to break out of the 27 bonsai markets.
14:04We need to have one market, then we need to have coordination on the demand side.
14:08But we also, I want to be in a place where it's not just bilateral countries or governments trying to
14:14tell industry produce this or this.
14:17But I really want in here, actually, I believe in the free market, that we want more free market in
14:21the European level,
14:22more competition and more effective industry.
14:24Are you satisfied with that answer?
14:26Well, it's always good hearing when I hear saying a socialist that he's for the free market.
14:33So I appreciate you on.
14:34A social-democrat.
14:34Yeah, you do get on, actually, very well.
14:37Well, actually, now we've given you a nice little flavour of how the real debates are inside the committee.
14:41Sometimes they get a little bit more heated than they do today.
14:44But of course, we need politicians to get on in order to have progress.
14:47But now it's time to move on to our next round.
14:50And it's time to bring in a new voice.
14:55I would like to bring in the voice now of Theo Franken, Belgian Defence Minister, speaking right here at the
15:01Euronews' Defence and Space Summit.
15:03Here in Albert Hall, he said that he was in a very difficult position.
15:07He said he couldn't undo in 18 or couldn't do in 18 months what was neglected, quote, for 40 years.
15:14Take a look.
15:15Europe has been very good in investing in soft power, in social security.
15:20And it's beautiful to have a pension system, to have social welfare systems.
15:24When somebody gets sick, when somebody's lost his job, we have everything.
15:29But when there's war or when there's hybrid threats, we don't, we have anything.
15:35So, yeah, we were in a really difficult position.
15:38And Belgium was a really bad pupil in the past, trying to step up.
15:41So, trying to do in 18 months what was undone, or what was neglected really for 40 years, your reaction?
15:48Well, I think that we are now in a new episode and we have to work for the future.
15:54I can talk a lot about the past.
15:56I was, I formed a government in Belgium when I was party leader with the party of Theo Franken in
16:042011, 2012.
16:06And also there, there was a decreasing of the defence investment.
16:11So, let's not talk about the past, but let's talk about the future.
16:16Let's talk about the future.
16:17That is what counts.
16:19Let's talk about the present.
16:20And right now, many national governments are talking about their budgets for 2027.
16:24And defence is not really getting a look in.
16:26It's more bread and butter issues.
16:29I think defence is a bread and butter issue, very, very clearly.
16:32And if you look at the German budget, for instance, I think that is actually something that we should look
16:37at also on the European level.
16:38But not in all countries, as the point was made at this.
16:40I want to make the point about what we did in Germany.
16:42Because what we didn't do was try to cannibalise on everything else and try to basically get the Putin speaking
16:48points of saying,
16:49oh, we cut pensions, we cut social coherence, we cut investments.
16:53No, we said, these are two different things.
16:55We have a one, like a unique threat situation right now.
16:59And this is why in Germany, we said, okay, defence spending is so essential and important that we set up
17:05it outside of our normal budget.
17:07We opened the debt break.
17:09But what we did was to show our populations that, yes, defence investment, but we combined it with 500 billion
17:15investment in infrastructure,
17:17showing them very clearly that it's not defence or social cohesion and infrastructure,
17:22but that the two are two sides of the same coin.
17:24I think we actually need to start thinking about something in the same level, on the European level,
17:29to really be a little bit more audacious instead of trying to move within the existing budget, small things back
17:34and forth.
17:35I think we really need to start thinking about strong, independent findings and mechanisms.
17:39We've started with that with SAFE, but I think there's way more to go.
17:42And of course, it's housing, it's healthcare, it's childcare, it's welfare.
17:46Those are the issues on the minds of people.
17:47As politicians, we also have to be a little bit educational, also to the voters, saying what is going on.
17:53And how do you do that without scaremongering?
17:55When I'm amongst the people, they ask me, what is Europe doing for our security?
18:00What is the answer?
18:03And if you explain this in a good way, then I think that you can convince the people.
18:10So what is the answer?
18:10What do you tell them in 20 seconds?
18:12Well, let me come back on your first question.
18:15If we spend 400 billion yearly, 2024, 2025, with a lack of efficiency of 20%, it's 80 billion.
18:27It's more or less the budget of Germany, defense spending of Germany.
18:32I cannot say to our people, to our citizens, you have to spend more.
18:37We will ask your taxes for this, but we will not do it on the most efficient way.
18:43That is what we need to do, and do it on the most efficient way.
18:47And when we can gain 20%, then we can explain to the people why it is necessary.
18:54But I actually think, I don't think we need to, like, I in some ways trust the people there more.
18:59I think the people very often are further than politicians on this point.
19:02If you look at the surveys, for instance, in Germany, over two-thirds for over the last couple of years
19:07since the Russian and full inflation in Ukraine have been in support of more defense spending.
19:12But the question is not the weather.
19:13The question is the how.
19:15And if we just go back and look at the list that we wanted to have in the 1990s, that's
19:19not going to work.
19:19That's not going to cut it.
19:20The ministry report said 30% inefficiencies.
19:23So we have to pay better, we have to pay European, and we also have to spend much more on
19:28research and development.
19:29The Americans, I think, are spending on average 16-70% of their defense budget on research and development.
19:33We do on average, I think, 4-5%.
19:35That can't be the future, especially now with new technology.
19:38We need to fundamentally rethink how we spend together, European, and forward-looking.
19:44And speed up when it gets from the lab, of course, to the market.
19:46But that's another debate on the ring.
19:48It's all about the how and now here today on the ring.
19:50And it's time to move on to our next round.
19:55And here on the ring, we're always worried and curious about what our viewers think about the various issues.
20:00And like we've already, in fact, alluded to here on the ring, security is a major issue for the citizens.
20:05If you look at a recent Eurobarometer, 68% of Europeans believe that their very country is under threat.
20:14And if you look deep into that Eurobarometer, it says that the highest threat perception is in France, followed by
20:21the Netherlands and then Denmark.
20:22And then also Cyprus and Germany.
20:25That's 7 in 10 who feel their country is under threat.
20:28That's quite something.
20:28I mean, I think it's logical.
20:30People aren't stupid.
20:32People see what's happening in their countries.
20:34I mean, I'm from Germany.
20:36We just recently had an attack that I wouldn't call hybrid anymore.
20:39We had Russian drones fixed with explosives on our airport in Leipzig that could have caused huge damage and loss
20:49of life.
20:49We in Germany alone in the last year, I think, have on average suffered losses to our economy due to
20:55hybrid attacks of up to 270 billion.
20:57That's almost three times our defense budget in the previous year.
21:01We see attacks on our infrastructure in the Baltic Sea.
21:04We see the meddling in our elections.
21:06We see the attempts of bots, of Russian bots to interfere in our elections.
21:10People see that.
21:11They understand that we are under threat.
21:13But I think the important part for us is here to keep calm, but to also really show that we
21:17are delivering.
21:18And that really means not going back into the old habits, but looking forward, what can we do differently?
21:23And the expectation is to do it on a European level, because people are clever.
21:27They see it as more efficient and it is more forward-looking to do that on a European level within
21:30NATO.
21:31And that very point of keeping calm, that was the very message of Mark Rutte, the Secretary-General of NATO,
21:35who is here as well at our Euronews Space and Defense Summit.
21:38How vulnerable, though, do you think we are, White de Becker, to a really huge cyber attack here in Europe?
21:46Well, I think that we are very vulnerable.
21:48I don't think that the Russians are coming into the European Union, to our borders immediately.
21:53But they are trying to destabilize European democracies.
21:58That is what they did in Sachsen-Anhalt.
22:00That is what they will try to do in France.
22:03That is what they did in a lot of other countries when there were elections.
22:08So what's the plan to counter this and how much...
22:10And so that is why we have to say to the people that this is a real threat for Europe.
22:17And why are the Russians trying to do this?
22:21Because they want to try to influence, of course, the European population.
22:25They want to say, stop with the solidarity with the Ukraine people and stop with paying for the European army.
22:34So what is the solution?
22:35Because there's a lot of very clever people.
22:38We've heard some fascinating, very deeply informed, intelligent people.
22:41What is the solution?
22:42I think the solution is, first of all, to get our act together when it comes to defense on the
22:46European level.
22:47Let's also not undersell ourselves.
22:49We are the second largest economy in the world.
22:51We have the strongest social model in the world.
22:52so we can start translating that into real capabilities.
22:55And on the other side, I would say very clearly, when we see these hybrid attacks from Russia,
22:59let's not just go into the trap and go onto the escalation circle where Putin thinks he has an advantage
23:04and just attack hybrid attacks with hybrid attacks.
23:06No, let's see where do we have a comparative advantage.
23:09And I would say, for instance, one leverage we have is that 210 billion of Putin's money is sitting frozen
23:16in our accounts.
23:16And we already have seen now that the U.S. and Russia are talking about it, want to use it.
23:21Well, that's a big debate in Belgium, of course.
23:22We can bring in our Belgian MEP that we happen to have here, of course, on Euroclear.
23:26Belgium won't budge there.
23:27Well, you cannot ask the Belgian taxpayers to pay for this, so we need a common ground for this.
23:34And if there is no common ground, I think that we cannot discuss about this right now.
23:39And that's one area where most Belgians do agree.
23:40We always have said we need money also for the reconstruction of Ukraine.
23:47And once there is a peace agreement, we can, with an international agreement also, look to this money.
23:55But right at the moment, if there is no legal base to do this, you cannot ask from the Belgian
24:04taxpayers to pay the bill.
24:06But I think there are solutions.
24:08Like one suggestion is, for instance, to actually move that account, the money on that account, onto an EU entity.
24:16And then I would say, because it's clear, we must carry also the responsibility together.
24:20But I think at the same time, we can't just wait and see, maybe the Americans are going to take
24:24the initiative.
24:24Maybe they're coming up with the good solutions.
24:26We can't just keep expecting that they're going to be the knight coming in and shining armor, saving the day.
24:32We need to get into the initiative, and we need to see what are our comparative points of leverage,
24:37where we can also use that in negotiations that come ahead.
24:40I don't want to be constantly reactive as European.
24:42I want to start finally being proactive and also laying out our plan for negotiations with Russia.
24:47How do you get Putin to the negotiating table, and what is our plan for peace in Europe?
24:51Proactive.
24:51I think that's a word that will go down well with our viewers.
24:54That brings our fourth round to an end.
24:56It's time now to move on to the final one.
25:01And as we're hearing on the ring, there is no time to waste, and that's why this final round is
25:07a little bit special.
25:08I'm going to ask you some questions, and you can ask with either yes or no.
25:12How does that sound?
25:14Quite easy.
25:15Not easy, of course, for a politician.
25:17Is European sovereignty possible, yes or no?
25:20Yes.
25:21Of course, yes.
25:22Can Europe ever become a hard power, yes or no?
25:26Yes.
25:26It is.
25:28Should we be planning and preparing for a war, yes or no?
25:31We should prepare for war to avoid war.
25:34Yes or no?
25:35I agree.
25:36Would Europeans survive an invasion, yes or no?
25:41Yes.
25:42Of course.
25:43Are we in the EU a snowflake society, yes or no?
25:48Sorry?
25:49Are we a snowflake society?
25:51No.
25:52Absolutely not.
25:54Can the EU defend itself without help from our American friends, yes or no?
26:03Not yet.
26:05And yourself?
26:06We can, but we shouldn't strive for that.
26:09Should military conscription be reintroduced all across the European Union, yes or no?
26:13Yes.
26:14Not at this stage.
26:16Should women in Europe learn to fight, yes or no?
26:19I think if they want to.
26:22Yes, why not?
26:23Is a common EU army a good idea, yes or no?
26:26Yes.
26:27We have one.
26:28It's called NATO.
26:29Should Ukraine be allowed to join NATO as soon as possible, yes or no?
26:34Once the war is over, yes.
26:36Well, let's start with the European Defence Union and let's join Ukraine in this European Defence Union.
26:43And final question.
26:44Are you optimistic about the future of the European Union, yes or no?
26:48It's always better to be an optimist who's wrong than a pessimist who's right, so yes.
26:52I agree.
26:53And what about our studio audience?
26:54Optimistic about the future of the EU?
26:56Yes.
26:57Very good.
26:58Yes, we are.
26:59And on that positive note, we can bring this very special edition of The Ring to an end.
27:04Thank you so much to Tobias Kramer and Werther Becker for being our guests.
27:07And if you would like to join the conversation, you can drop us a line, The Ring, at euronews.com.
27:12That is our email address.
27:14But thanks so much for your attention.
27:15Stay with us here on Euronews.
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