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Can Europe afford its defence boost? MEPs debate in The Ring
As security and hybrid threats are on the rise across Europe and the war in Ukraine enters its fifth year, the focus in Brussels is firmly on increasing defence spending. But who should pay, and how?
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2026/10/01/can-europe-afford-its-defence-boost-meps-debate-in-the-ring
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As security and hybrid threats are on the rise across Europe and the war in Ukraine enters its fifth year, the focus in Brussels is firmly on increasing defence spending. But who should pay, and how?
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2026/10/01/can-europe-afford-its-defence-boost-meps-debate-in-the-ring
Subscribe to our channel. Euronews is available on Dailymotion in 12 languages
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NewsTranscript
00:08Hello and welcome to this episode of The Ring, Euronews' weekly debating show, this time
00:14coming to you with a special edition, live from the Albert Hall in Brussels, from Euronews'
00:20Space and Defence Summit. My name is Maeve McMahon, thrilled to be with you today.
00:25Now, with Ukraine facing its fifth winter of war and Russian hybrid attacks on the rise,
00:32the ongoing question in this town and at this summit is how much we should be spending on
00:37self-defence and if we can actually afford it. In The Ring this week we have Wouter Becke,
00:43Belgian member of the European Parliament with the European People's Party, and Tobias Kramer,
00:48German member of the European Parliament with the socialists. Wouter Becke and Tobias Kramer,
00:53welcome to The Ring.
01:02So the idea here on The Ring is to give our viewers a glimpse of how your committee meetings go,
01:07your debates, so you should feel right at home. Welcome.
01:11So first question, one of the main messages we're hearing at this Euronews Defence and Space Summit
01:17is that modern warfare moves much faster than EU institutions. What is your view here?
01:23Yeah, I think it's very clear that we have made the mistake over the last couple of decades to start
01:28thinking that Europe for Europe defence is not our problem. It's not a European issue. We thought
01:34we can outsource this. We thought that just NATO can do it or even better, the Americans can do it,
01:38and we can just pretend it's something we don't have to deal with. And now we are paying a price
01:42for that.
01:43We are paying the price geopolitically, and we are not at the negotiating table but on the menu.
01:47We are paying the price in terms of outfitting our military, which is too slow and not good enough.
01:55And we are paying a price financially when we do it nationally. And I think the minister report says
01:59paying 30% to high prices. We are moving, but in some ways I really think we need to stop
02:05moving
02:05from the small gradual but really starting to think a little bit more audacious, thinking out of the box
02:09and actually reform our processes.
02:11And who is to blame for this naivety of the past?
02:14Well, I don't think that we have to look to the past. I mean, in the past, the paradigm of
02:19the NATO was
02:20we have to keep the Russians out, the Germans down and the Americans in. And now we are in a
02:27new time.
02:29But the key question is still how to keep the Russians out. And when we look to the European budgets,
02:35we doubled the budgets in five years. The national budgets of defense doubled in five years.
02:43Now we have 2, 2.2% of the national budget spending on defense. It's not enough, but still, it
02:51is something.
02:51If you do the 3.5%, we will have the same amount of budget than the United States.
02:58The problem is not the budget and the increasing of the budget. The problem is that we are not spending
03:05it European.
03:06And as my colleague said, this is a lack of efficiency. We have 18 battle tanks. The United States has
03:13one battle tank.
03:14And 27 production lines, a big message coming out of this summer today. How do we solve that problem?
03:18I mean, complex as it is.
03:20In some ways, it's clear. What is the biggest strength? If you think about the European Union, what's our biggest
03:23strength?
03:24It's the common market. But the problem is we, for the last 80 years, have kept out defense out of
03:29the common market.
03:30There is no common market of defense in Europe. We have 27 bonsai markets of defense.
03:34And that is expensive, that is weak, and that is fragmented.
03:37So we are actually in Parliament. In some ways, we are then ahead of other European institutions.
03:41We have actually called, that was the rapporteur for an initiative report, for the creation of a common market of
03:46defense,
03:47of finally getting bang for the buck. I think that is what's lacking, and this is what the European Union
03:50really does.
03:51But are our member states on board with this? Is there political will?
03:53It looks like more, you know, countries are putting themselves first in this field.
03:56Well, when we look to the speeches, there is political will.
04:01So you believe the speeches?
04:02Well, that was my second point. After the speeches...
04:07Because as we've seen today, it's easy to deliver a speech, right?
04:10Yeah. But after the speeches, we have to act.
04:13I mean, when I started in the European Parliament two years ago, and I talked about Article 42.7,
04:20a lot of my colleagues were looking to me and saying, what are you talking about?
04:25But after the aggression words of Donald Trump towards Greenland, and Denmark was saying,
04:34what about Article 42.7?
04:37Well, then everybody said, okay, we have to talk about this.
04:43And that is what we have to do, to implement existing articles.
04:47Last week, we had the President of the Commission in the European Parliament with the State of the Union,
04:54saying we don't not only need an Article 5, which is a mirror clause of Article 42.7 in the
05:04European treaties,
05:04but also an Article 4.
05:06And we need a European Security Council.
05:09That is something that we together are already asking for more than a year right now.
05:13And you mentioned, of course, the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen.
05:17We can actually now take a listen to an excerpt from her very speech,
05:19her State of the European Union, that she delivered in Strasbourg recently.
05:23I will propose together with HRVP a new European security strategy.
05:30In other words, a mechanism to flank NATO's Article 4.
05:35And I believe it is time for Europe's own Article 4, an emergency security protocol.
05:43When triggered by one member state, all member states should convene to coordinate a European response,
05:51to deter further escalation and to mitigate the impact.
05:55Your reaction to this, did you take it seriously?
05:58I mean, it's law.
06:00We have Article 42.7, and I think our citizens are well entitled to know what that actually means.
06:06We have seen in some exercises previously that our leaders actually don't know really what it means.
06:11So I think it makes sense to actually see the law we have.
06:14It is there.
06:14In some ways, it's actually more extensive than Article 5.
06:17And we have to see how it works out.
06:19What is important to me is there's no duplication or competition with NATO.
06:23But I think what is really important to me, and that is one point I wanted to add, it's actually
06:27quite essential.
06:27It's not the matter of what politicians say.
06:30I believe in democracy.
06:31Our population, if you ask, if you look at the Eurobarometer, stable 80% of our population say they want
06:38Europe to play a role when it comes to security and defense.
06:40And I think it is time to actually live on that.
06:42And just on that topic of rivalry with NATO, many MEPs reacted negatively to that excerpt there from Ursula von
06:48der Leyen.
06:48What's your view?
06:49Well, I think that the extremes react negatively, but that's…
06:53But some from your party, too.
06:55Well, no, not from my party.
06:58We are asking for moving forward already for more than a year.
07:03I think, to be honest, the problem is not in the European Parliament.
07:07The problem is not the Commission.
07:09The problem is that member states still think that they are strong enough to do it by their own.
07:15And that's not true.
07:17I mean, there is a lot of money going on in the different member states for investing in defense, but
07:23not in European defense.
07:25We had a target saying we need 40% joint procurement coming from the European markets.
07:30We are on 17%.
07:3317%.
07:34And that's a problem.
07:35And it's not when the German government is buying German or the French government is buying French that we are
07:42buying European.
07:44That is something else.
07:45And that is what we need.
07:47The common market is a cornerstone of the European Union.
07:50We can deliver if we want.
07:52But then the focus of the different member states has to be also on the European way.
07:58And the second element is, coming back on the quote of Ursula von der Leyen, we had a NATO summit
08:07in Ankara.
08:08And there in the NATO summit was clearly explained, Europe, you have to do your work.
08:16And that's why we need a European pillar within the NATO, not outside the NATO, but within the NATO.
08:22And if you want to fulfill this European pillar, well, then you need an Article 4 comparable with the European
08:32treaties.
08:33Then you need a European Security Council.
08:35So then you need to stop the fragmentation and you need critical enablers at the European field.
08:45And just to be as back to the money, because, of course, in Brussels we're talking about the long-term
08:49budget.
08:49There's 131 billion.
08:51That was the proposal from the European Commission.
08:53But many from think tanks say that's not enough.
08:55It should be around 500 billion.
08:56What's your take?
08:57I mean, it's quite clear.
08:58If you want the European Union to do more, you need more funding.
09:02I think that that is clear.
09:04I think there are debates about our own resources at the moment.
09:06But who should pay?
09:07Should it be future generations?
09:08One thing for me is really important here is that we don't go into this false dichotomy of thinking that
09:15we can do all our defense spending,
09:17which is absolutely necessary, with the MFF.
09:20That's not what the MFF is built for.
09:21And actually, when it comes legally, you aren't even allowed to buy weapons from the MFF money.
09:25And I think it's really short-sighted.
09:28Some of the discussions that we are having, where now some people who always wanted to have cuts and cohesion
09:33on social cohesion funds, on regional cohesion funds, try to justify that with defense.
09:37I think that is really self-damaging in doing Putin's homework.
09:41Because not only will that never be enough money that we actually need for defense,
09:45it also really allows Putin to do what he is trying to do with his hybrid attacks.
09:49That is, he's not terrified that much of our armies.
09:51I wish he was more terrified of our armies.
09:53He's terrified of our working democracies.
09:56He's terrified of our social cohesion.
09:58He's trying to divide us from within.
09:59And if we then allow him to create this false dichotomy between social cohesion and security,
10:05that is completely wrong.
10:06You can't have one without the other.
10:08We are doing his own work.
10:09Well, I can see you're both getting warmed up, but it's now time to move on to the next round.
10:15And now I put you in the spotlight to ask the questions, just like you do inside the hemicycle.
10:21Tobias, would you like to start with your first question?
10:23Yeah, I actually have a question, because I know that we've traveled together even to Ukraine on a mission.
10:28So I know that you are very strong points on support for Ukraine.
10:32But in Germany, for instance, right now, we have issues that far right party, the AFD,
10:37might participate in a state government.
10:40That means access to sensitive classified documents.
10:45And our secret services, our minister of defense is even saying,
10:49maybe we should stop sending them such classified documents,
10:52because there's a very high risk that these parties are giving them through to Putin.
10:57So there's a very clear link.
10:58There's even some debate whether they receive money from Putin.
11:02And my question to you, even on a personal level, is how you feel that some people in the EPP
11:06are actually trying to work together with the AFD on some issues.
11:10And I'm really wondering, is this a trustworthy party,
11:13if we at the same time have to wonder if they give classified information to Putin?
11:18Well, for me, it's a quite easy question, because for me, the answer is clear.
11:24No, the AFD is not a trustworthy party.
11:29The AFD is the enemy for the European citizens, the enemy for economic growth,
11:34the enemy for our common security.
11:37For me, it's clear as that.
11:38But do you have debates in your group?
11:41Because we've seen WhatsApp chats where they've coordinated on different laws in advance.
11:46It wasn't accidental majorities.
11:48Do you have these debates in the group about what extent to cooperate?
11:52Yeah.
11:53We have debates within our group.
11:55Like you have debates in your group saying,
11:58do we have to cope and to work together with extreme left?
12:01Because for me, the extremes, extreme left and extreme right,
12:04they are all of the same cup of tea.
12:07You can't work with them when it is about how can we make Europe stronger.
12:13When we look to the extreme right, then they say,
12:16no, no, no, we don't want this once because we want to organize this on the national level,
12:23not on the European level.
12:24And when you look to the extreme left, they say,
12:28no, we don't want to have this on the European level
12:31because the European level, that is the free market,
12:34and we are against the free market.
12:35But both, both are enemies for a stronger Europe.
12:40But very popular among the people, as we saw recently in elections in Saxony.
12:43Your turn now to address your first question to Tobias.
12:47Well, I know that you are a strong believer for European defense,
12:51and you started saying that we need a common market also on defense.
12:56We agree on this.
12:59But you are also in the German government, and you have the minister of defense.
13:06Can you convince your minister of defense working with European projects,
13:12and not only with German projects?
13:14You are the best, the most important investor in defense.
13:20That's a huge investment for Germany, and we appreciate this.
13:24But it would be more efficient if the German minister of defense
13:30would take the lead for this European approach.
13:34I completely agree that we need a European common of defense.
13:37The problem is, until we don't have it,
13:40we have an incentive structure that creates perverse outcomes,
13:44where it very often actually is in the interest of individual nation states
13:48to go it alone.
13:49But in the end, this is not in the interest of Europe as a whole.
13:52So what I think is not necessarily try to go to this government or this government
13:55and change that particular person or government stance.
13:58I think we really need to change something structurally here.
14:01We need to break out of the 27 bonsai markets.
14:04We need to have one market.
14:06Then we need to have coordination on the demand side.
14:08But we also, I want to be in a place where it's not just bilateral countries
14:13or governments trying to tell industry produce this or this.
14:17But I really want in here, actually, I believe in the free market,
14:20that we want more free market in the European level,
14:22more competition and more effective industry.
14:24Are you satisfied with that answer?
14:26Well, it's always good hearing when I hear saying a socialist
14:31that he's for the free market.
14:33So I appreciate your answer.
14:34A social democrat.
14:34Yeah, you do get on, actually, very well.
14:37Well, actually, now we've given you a nice little flavor
14:39of how the real debates are inside the committee.
14:41Sometimes they get a little bit more heated than they do today.
14:44But, of course, we need politicians to get on in order to have progress.
14:47But now it's time to move on to our next round.
14:50And it's time to bring in a new voice.
14:55I would like to bring in the voice now of Theo Franken,
14:58Belgian defense minister, speaking right here
15:01at the Euronews' Defense and Space Summit.
15:03Here in Albert Hall, he said that he was in a very difficult position.
15:07He said he couldn't undo in 18, or couldn't do in 18 months,
15:11what was neglected, quote, for 40 years.
15:14Take a look.
15:14Europe has been very good in investing in soft power, in social security.
15:20And it's beautiful to have a pension system, to have social welfare systems.
15:24When somebody gets sick, when somebody's lost his job, we have everything.
15:29But when there's war or when there's hybrid threats, we don't, we have anything.
15:35So, yeah, we were in a really difficult position.
15:38And Belgium was a really bad pupil in the past, trying to step up.
15:41So, trying to do in 18 months, what was undone, or what was neglected, really, for 40 years?
15:46Your reaction?
15:48Well, I think that we are now in a new episode, and we have to work for the future.
15:54I can talk a lot about the past.
15:56I formed a government in Belgium when I was party leader with the party of Theo Franken in 2011, 2012.
16:06And also there, there was a decreasing of the defence investment.
16:11So, let's not talk about the past, but let's talk about the future.
16:17That is what counts.
16:19Let's talk about the present.
16:20And right now, many national governments are talking about their budgets for 2027,
16:24and defence is not really getting a look in.
16:26It's more bread and butter issues.
16:29I think defence is a bread and butter issue, very, very clearly.
16:32And if you look at the German budget, for instance,
16:35I think that is actually something that we should look at also on the European level.
16:38But not in all countries, as the point was made at this...
16:40I want to make the point about what we did in Germany.
16:42Because what we didn't do was try to cannibalise on everything else
16:46and try to basically get the Putin-speaking points of saying,
16:49oh, we cut pensions, we cut social coherence, we cut investments.
16:53No, we said, these are two different things.
16:56We have a one, like a unique threat situation right now.
16:59And this is why in Germany, we said, okay, defence spending is so essential and important
17:03that we set up it outside of our normal budget.
17:07We opened the debt break.
17:09But what we did was to show our populations that, yes, defence investment,
17:14but we combined it with 500 billion investment in infrastructure,
17:17showing them very clearly that it's not defence or social cohesion and infrastructure,
17:22but that the two are two sides of the same coin.
17:24I think we actually need to start thinking about something in the same level,
17:28on the European level, to really be a little bit more audacious
17:31instead of trying to move within the existing budget, small things back and forth.
17:35I think here we really need to start thinking about strong, independent findings and mechanisms.
17:39We've started with that with SAFE, but I think there's way more to go.
17:42And, of course, it's housing, it's health care, it's child care, it's welfare.
17:46Those are the issues on the minds of people.
17:47As politicians, we also have to be a little bit educational, also to the voters,
17:52saying what is going on.
17:54And how do you do that without scaremongering?
17:55When I'm amongst the people, they ask me, what is Europe doing for our security?
18:01What is the answer?
18:03And if you explain this in a good way, then I think that you can convince the people.
18:09So what is the answer? What do you tell them in 20 seconds?
18:12Well, let me come back on your first question.
18:15If we spent 400 billion yearly, 2024, 2025, with a lack of efficiency of 20%, it's 80 billion.
18:27It's more or less the budget of Germany, defense spending of Germany.
18:32I cannot say to our people, to our citizens, you have to spend more.
18:37Or we will ask your taxes for this, but we will not do it on the most efficient way.
18:43That is what we need to do, to do it on the most efficient way.
18:47And when we can gain 20%, then we can explain to the people why it is necessary.
18:54But I actually think, I don't think we need to, like, I in some ways trust the people there more.
18:59I think the people very often are further than politicians on this point.
19:01If you look at the surveys, for instance, in Germany, over two-thirds for over the last couple of years,
19:07since the Russian and full integration in Ukraine, have been in support of more defense spending.
19:12But the question is not the weather, the question is the how.
19:15And if we just go back and look at the list that we wanted to have in the 1990s, that's
19:19not going to work.
19:19That's not going to cut it.
19:20The initial report said 30% inefficiencies.
19:23So we have to pay better, we have to pay European, and we also have to spend much more on
19:28research and development.
19:29The Americans, I think, are spending on average 16-70% of their defense budget on research and development.
19:33We do on average, I think, 4-5%.
19:35That can't be the future, especially now with new technology.
19:38We need to fundamentally rethink how we spend together, European, and forward-looking.
19:44And speed up when it gets from the lab, of course, to the market.
19:46But that's another debate on the ring.
19:48It's all about the how and now here today on the ring.
19:50And it's time to move on to our next round.
19:55And here on the ring, we're always worried and curious about what our viewers think about the various issues.
20:00And like we've already, in fact, alluded to here on the ring, security is a major issue for the citizens.
20:05If you look at a recent Eurobarometer, 68% of Europeans believe that their very country is under threat.
20:14And if you look deep into that Eurobarometer, it says that the highest threat perception is in France,
20:20followed by the Netherlands and then Denmark.
20:22And then also Cyprus and Germany.
20:25That's 7 in 10 who feel their country is under threat.
20:28That's quite something.
20:29I mean, I think it's logical.
20:30People aren't stupid.
20:32People see what's happening in their countries.
20:34I mean, I'm from Germany.
20:36We just recently had an attack that I wouldn't call hybrid anymore.
20:39We had Russian drones fixed with explosives on our airport in Leipzig that could have caused huge damage and loss
20:49of life.
20:49We in Germany alone in the last year, I think, have on average suffered losses to our economy due to
20:55hybrid attacks of up to 270 billion.
20:57That was three times our defense budget in the previous year.
21:01We see attacks on our infrastructure in the Baltic Sea.
21:04We see the meddling in our elections.
21:06We see the attempts of bots, of Russian bots, to interfere in our elections.
21:10People see that.
21:11They understand that we are under threat.
21:13But I think the important part for us is here to keep calm, but to also really show that we
21:17are delivering.
21:18And that really means not going back into the old habits, but looking forward.
21:22What can we do differently?
21:23And the expectation is to do it on a European level, because people are clever.
21:27They see it as more efficient and it is more forward-looking to do that on a European level within
21:30NATO.
21:31And that very point of keeping calm, that was the very message of Mark Rutte, the Secretary-General of NATO,
21:35who is here as well at our Euronews Space and Defense Summit.
21:38How vulnerable, though, do you think we are, Wouter Becker, to a really huge cyberattack here in Europe?
21:46Well, I think that we are very vulnerable.
21:48I don't think that the Russians are coming into the European Union, to our borders, immediately.
21:53But they are trying to destabilize European democracies.
21:58That is what they did in Sachsen-Anhalt.
22:00That is what they will try to do in France.
22:03That is what they did in a lot of other countries when there were elections.
22:08So what's the plan to counter this?
22:10And so that is why we have to say to the people that this is a real threat for Europe.
22:18And why are the Russians trying to do this?
22:20Because they want to try to influence, of course, the European population.
22:25They want to say, stop with the solidarity with the Ukraine people.
22:30And stop with paying for the European army.
22:34So what is the solution?
22:35Because there's a lot of very clever people.
22:38We've heard some fascinating, very deeply informed intelligent people.
22:41What is the solution?
22:42I think the solution is, first of all, to get our act together when it comes to defense on the
22:46European level.
22:47Let's also not undersell ourselves.
22:49We are the second largest economy in the world.
22:51We have the strongest social model in the world.
22:52So we can start translating that into real capabilities.
22:55And on the other side, I would say very clearly, when we see these hybrid attacks from Russia,
22:59let's not just go into the trap and go onto the escalation circle where Putin thinks he has an advantage
23:05and just attack hybrid attacks with hybrid attacks.
23:06No, let's see where do we have a comparative advantage.
23:10And I would say, for instance, one leverage we have is that 210 billion of Putin's money is sitting frozen
23:16in our accounts.
23:16And we already have seen now that the US and Russia are talking about it want to use it.
23:21Well, that's a big debate in Belgium, of course.
23:22We can bring in our Belgian MEP that we happen to have here, of course, on Euroclear.
23:26Belgium won't budge there.
23:27Well, you cannot ask the Belgian taxpayers to pay for this.
23:32So we need a common ground for this.
23:34And if there is no common ground, I think that we cannot discuss about this right now.
23:39That's one area where most Belgians do agree.
23:40We always have said we need money also for the reconstruction of Ukraine.
23:47And once there is a peace agreement, we can, with an international agreement also, look to this money.
23:55But right at the moment, if there is no legal base to do this, you cannot ask from the Belgian
24:04taxpayers to pay the bill.
24:06But I think there are solutions.
24:08Like one suggestion is, for instance, to actually move that account, the money on that account, onto an EU entity.
24:16And then I would say, because it's clear, we must carry also the responsibility together.
24:20But I think at the same time, we can't just wait and see, maybe the Americans are going to take
24:24the initiative, maybe they're coming up with the good solutions.
24:26We can't just keep expecting that they're going to be the knight coming in and shining armor, saving the day.
24:32We need to get into the initiative and we need to see what are our comparative points of leverage, where
24:37we can also use that in negotiations that come ahead.
24:40I don't want to be constantly reactive as European.
24:42I want to start finally being proactive and also laying out our plan for negotiations with Russia.
24:47How do you get put into the negotiating table and what is our plan for peace in Europe?
24:51Proactive. I think that's a word that will go down well with our viewers.
24:54That brings our fourth round to an end.
24:56It's time now to move on to the final one.
25:01And as we're hearing on the ring, there is no time to waste.
25:05And that's why this final round is a little bit special.
25:08I'm going to ask you some questions and you can ask with either yes or no.
25:12How does that sound?
25:14Not easy, of course, for a politician.
25:17Is European sovereignty possible, yes or no?
25:20Yes.
25:21Of course, yes.
25:22Can Europe ever become a hard power, yes or no?
25:26Yes, it is.
25:28Should we be planning and preparing for a war, yes or no?
25:31We should prepare for war to avoid war.
25:34Yes or no?
25:35I agree.
25:36Would Europeans survive an invasion, yes or no?
25:41Yes.
25:41Of course.
25:43Are we in the EU a snowflake society, yes or no?
25:48Sorry?
25:49Are we a snowflake society?
25:51No.
25:52Absolutely not.
25:54Can the EU defend itself without help from our American friends, yes or no?
26:03Not yet.
26:05And yourself?
26:06We can, but we shouldn't strive for that.
26:09Should military conscription be reintroduced all across the European Union, yes or no?
26:13Yes.
26:14Not at this stage.
26:16Should women in Europe learn to fight, yes or no?
26:19I think if they want to.
26:22Yes, why not?
26:23Is a common EU army a good idea, yes or no?
26:26Yes.
26:27We have one.
26:28It's called NATO.
26:29Should Ukraine be allowed to join NATO as soon as possible, yes or no?
26:34Once the war's over, yes.
26:36Well, let's start with the European Defence Union and let's join Ukraine in this European
26:42Defence Union.
26:43And final question.
26:44Are you optimistic about the future of the European Union, yes or no?
26:48It's always better to be an optimist who's wrong than a pessimist who's right, so yes.
26:52I agree.
26:52And what about our studio audience?
26:54Optimistic about the future of the EU?
26:56Yes.
26:57Very good.
26:58Yes, we are.
26:59And on that positive note, we can bring this very special edition of The Ring to an end.
27:04Thank you so much to Tobias Kramer and Werther Becker for being our guests.
27:07And if you would like to join the conversation, you can drop us a line, the ring, at euronews.com.
27:13That is our email address.
27:14But thanks so much for your attention.
27:15Stay with us here on Euronews.