00:00So, for his last public appearance of his apostolic visit to France, Pope Leo chose the border city of Metz
00:07to speak on the future of Europe,
00:10giving a distinctly political dimension to a visit to France that has sparked scenes of spiritual jubilation and stressing the
00:18importance of unity on a continent where nationalist movements are gaining strength and Russia's war against Ukraine, now in its
00:25fifth year, shows no sign of abating.
00:28To analyze the Pope's visit to France, I'm now joined by Austin Ivory, a fellow in contemporary church history at
00:35Oxford University and author of two biographies of Pope Francis.
00:40Good morning, great to have you on the show.
00:43Good to be with you.
00:44So, to you, what was the most surprising element about Leo's speech on Europe?
00:51Well, I wasn't wholly surprised by it in the sense that the content, I think, was typical of him, his
00:58commitment to peace, to multilateralism.
01:00What surprised me, I think, was the passion with which he is able to challenge Europe at the moment to
01:06say, you know, are you preparing for peace or are you preparing for war?
01:10In other words, are you constructing the institutions that will lay the basis for a new world order, which will
01:17contain and prevent war, make war unthinkable?
01:20Or are you simply increasing the budgets, you know, for your military spending, assuming that there will be more war?
01:25So I found that very, very challenging and very striking.
01:30Also, I think the return to the roots of Europe, it was a very challenging speech in terms of, you
01:35know, what are the true values that have made Europe?
01:37And he talked about the European history, but he also talked about the example of Robert Schumann.
01:42He was speaking in Metz, which was the place where Robert Schumann lived and had his work.
01:49And it's really Schumann as one of the great architects of the European Union.
01:53He focused on what made that possible after the war to build that new order.
01:59So Leo, you know, this is a great theme of his pontificate.
02:01He sees that the world order has crumbled, is crumbling, probably has crumbled.
02:06And now is the task to build that new world order.
02:10We've seen Pope Leo receive huge public enthusiasm.
02:14Does that give him greater political and moral influence?
02:17Or should we be careful not to confuse popularity with influence?
02:22Well, I'm struck.
02:24I was struck, of course, by the popularity of him at his visit.
02:27Very similar, by the way, to his visit to Spain in June.
02:31From the sort of papal point of view, what this marks, I think, is the beginning of a new mission
02:37to Europe, if I can put it that way.
02:39Under Pope Francis, it was important to rebalance the church.
02:42The church is a global missionary body.
02:45Europe is no longer, if you like, the center of Catholicism.
02:48I think what Leo is doing is he's saying, actually, yes, he agrees with that.
02:53But he's also saying we need to build in Europe on what is happening, which is that young people are
02:59returning or coming to faith, not because they were brought up in any way religious, but because they are seeking
03:06and searching for meaning.
03:07And we've had something like a 400 percent increase in new Catholics in France since Covid.
03:14And so a big part of his this trip, I think, just as it was in Spain, was to sort
03:20of take that desire for meaning, that search for for values and to just say, look, the church is here
03:27ready to receive you.
03:28And one of the things he did when he was addressing the French church was to say, look, the church
03:32itself has to change.
03:34You know, we have to be come a different kind of church if we are to walk with the seekers
03:39and the searchers among the young searches for meaning.
03:42But, yeah, his popularity was extraordinary.
03:44Just to see the streets full like that was remarkable.
