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00:04It's a risk. Our next guest has been warning the tech industry about for months.
00:08His company writing in June, your AI sovereignty dictates your institution's future.
00:13Here with us now at Post 9 in a CNBC exclusive interview with Palantir co-founder and CEO Alex Karp.
00:18Welcome back. It's good to see you.
00:19Delighted to be here. You know, I've been here many times with you.
00:22Yes.
00:23And you guys are tough, but among my favorites.
00:25Okay, well, thank you.
00:28We're excited to talk to you because this is a really important week.
00:31And there's been this explosion of AI safety warnings.
00:36Where do you stand on all of it?
00:38Well, okay, Palantir, we've been in the forefront of using AI in the military context.
00:44The first company to build actually a functional AI technology, as is currently well known.
00:49We're dominating the application space. We have a product.
00:52So there's a lot of, we have a lot of experience with like what works, what doesn't.
00:56There are really different kinds of safety issues, quite frankly.
01:01Almost all might, we dominate U.S. commercial as a company.
01:05And the clients, our partners are livid at the kind of safety they're most upset about.
01:11What they believe is the theft of their alpha, meaning their ideas about how to run a business,
01:17their data in landing in a model.
01:19And they find out that the competitor next door has all of their alpha, meaning how they do their business.
01:24And they paid for it.
01:26I mean, I can't repeat what the customers are saying, but they're basically like one to give you the one
01:32that was the least vulgar.
01:33It's like, but how can they tell me not to wear a condom?
01:36Like, this is, and that's the least vulgar person that we deal with.
01:41They're like livid.
01:42And so they're livid.
01:44So that's safety.
01:44Wait, can you just like translate what you're talking about?
01:47So is this because the LLM's fault?
01:49They're sharing data?
01:51The reason why the sovereignty revolution, which we helped launch together with our partner, Jensen Wong,
01:59the famous founder and head of NVIDIA, is that when you use a closed model and you pay for tokens,
02:09you're not, the reason the tokens are discounted is not so they can grow the market.
02:13They're discounted so that they can get access to your IP so that their models get better.
02:17And there was functionally no honest conversation about this or disclosure.
02:22Now, that's point one.
02:23Point two is without an application layer and without post-training, which is currently being done with open-weight models,
02:31you, in the classified side, and it's just taking off across America because it's cheaper and ends up being safer
02:37and you control your future and your present, you are de facto outsourcing the value of internet.
02:45By the way, it's very much linked to the safety concerns.
02:48Now, Dario is one of the most important entrepreneurs.
02:51I've been at this for a long time.
02:52I've never seen anyone come from the back to me.
02:54I know you like him.
02:54I have a lot of respect for him.
02:56And I have a lot of respect for him because he's actually believes, of course, he's a business person too,
03:02most sometimes.
03:03So, of course, when the company's not doing as well, these things come forward and then they talk about safety.
03:08And when it's doing better, they—
03:09You think that's what's going on here?
03:10I don't think that's actually what's driving this.
03:12But, you know, I mean, it does happen regularly.
03:15But I think that, you know, what makes him so strong is he's ethical and a business person.
03:20Okay, so—but what's actually happening is very different than what people are reporting.
03:27Everyone thinks this is a safety versus non-safety versus regulation.
03:31What he, I believe, has realized is if you take the philosophical frame they have, which is we are deserving
03:40of having all the IP in the world,
03:42we the thousand people who think the way we do, that's why you can't work with the military.
03:46That's why you can take the IP from businesses and put it in your model.
03:51That model would require severe liability protection.
03:57And there's only one institution that can do that, the U.S. government.
04:00And then that's before you get to the danger.
04:02So what's really happening is the investors loved when he was migrating all the value of everyone else's business to
04:09their business because they're investors.
04:11They don't realize it's like—it's like every mark.
04:14They don't realize they're the mark.
04:16Because now, first you migrate all the IP to your business, and then because you need uncapped, you need capped
04:22liability, both vis-a-vis the business and vis-a-vis the dangers, you've got to migrate the business to
04:28the government.
04:28It has to be nationalized.
04:30So what's actually happening is this is reported as regulation, non-regulation movement.
04:34That's actually not what this movement is.
04:35It's like the view that I believe they have is these businesses have to be nationalized because if you don't
04:42nationalize them, every single one of my clients is going to sue.
04:45Now you think that's what they want.
04:46Well, obviously, like, if you have a business that presupposes unlimited risk, both vis-a-vis liability risk, vis-a
04:55-vis the clients, because I don't think any of our clients realized their IP was migrating, vis-a-vis the
05:00world, because you're saying, what is the liability risk for destroying 10% of the company?
05:0410% of the world discounted into the present.
05:07Okay, but there's only one institution.
05:09And by the way, that's not actually what's happening.
05:11They want three institutions.
05:13It's going to be like Europe, Canada, and America.
05:16We migrate all the IP of America from our businesses to this institution.
05:20Then the institution is going to get full liability protection because it's nationalized.
05:24Do you think OpenAI wants this?
05:26Well, no, no, no.
05:26This very, no, I think, I think these are very different things, but I think that is the core philosophy
05:31of the EA movement imposed upon a business.
05:35EA effective altruism.
05:36Yeah, so that's actually what is driving this.
05:38Now, of course, the other model companies have very different, I think what most, what they want is, and I
05:44think is, well, first we should self-regulate.
05:46If you do not self-responsibly self-regulate, by the way, though, the biggest danger currently of this revolution is
05:51that it generates inescapably, I think it will raise the boats of most people, but you can't have a revolution
05:59where I become 50 times wealthier and everyone else becomes 10% wealthier.
06:03It's going to drive political insanity.
06:06Political insanity, what does that look like?
06:08It looks like, obviously, wealthy people should pay more than fair their share of the taxes.
06:13But a wealth tax kills entrepreneurship.
06:16It actually is, by the way, it's massively beneficial to me.
06:19So how do you share the benefits?
06:20So you have to find ways to actually tax at the high end that aren't a wealth tax.
06:25There are ways to do this.
06:26I think the way you do is you tie a reduction of waste, fraud, and abuse to increase taxes among
06:33the very wealthy.
06:34So, but in any case, you have to, the other political insanity, and then realize the financial thing is, look
06:39at the far right and far left in this country.
06:41This is directly tied to the fact that many people are like, screw this.
06:46I don't want these people becoming 100 times wealthier.
06:48I'm going to blow up the whole system.
06:50What does that blowing up the whole system look like?
06:52It looks like DSA people who are very happy to talk about how they're not anti-Jewish.
06:56They love that.
06:57They don't like to talk about how they're not anti-black because that's something they hide.
07:01You have the far right.
07:02It's like everything is a data center run by somebody.
07:05It's like they attack us for running data.
07:06We don't even build data centers.
07:08We get attacked.
07:09So, that is like, and by the way, one of the biggest mistakes the labs have made is we are
07:15in competition with China.
07:16Some people think they're our enemy.
07:18Some people think they're our competitor.
07:20Pick your spectrum.
07:21Either we are going to win and provide the stack to the world, and stack doesn't mean you have to
07:26take the whole part, or they're going to win.
07:28And that means the danger is not just the danger of dangerous things happening to humanity, which, by the way,
07:35what business isn't responsible for minding your own safety?
07:39You can't go to a—you know, another reason our customers are livid is, like, they build chemicals.
07:43But this is a whole new frontier, right?
07:44When they're talking about the safety of humanity and creating a technology, an AI that can break free this misalignment
07:52from human intention and then do really bad stuff to us, I mean, that's a societal issue, isn't it?
07:58Of course it's a societal issue.
08:00But you—
08:01You think they can self-regulate that?
08:02Well, you have to find a way to set reasonable guidelines that are enforced, but you can't do it.
08:07The first line of defense is you're liable for your own actions.
08:11So it's a weird twist.
08:12They're asking for societal regulation to get out of the first line of defense, which is if you build a
08:18technology that can destroy 10 percent of the world, that has civil and criminal liability attached to it.
08:26The first step is to say, okay, it is not—the first step isn't to say we get out of it
08:30because we want to self-regulate or we want regulation.
08:33The first step is to say, okay, you've disclosed this.
08:36What are you doing about it?
08:37Right.
08:37And the second step is to say if you're not doing it, you're not being responsible here, we're going to
08:41have to get people involved.
08:42That's going to be also very complicated because regulating these things needs people.
08:46You need people who understand them.
08:48Another problem we have is seemingly everyone who understands this is on some payroll.
08:52So it's like, you know, it's like who are you going to trust?
08:54You know, when we built nuclear energy and we built the bomb, people did it because they believed.
08:58They were not on the payroll.
09:00The liability that you're talking about, how does that get written into the S-1?
09:04What do risk factors sound like?
09:06This is the thing.
09:07You're assuming that there will be an S-1.
09:11Okay, maybe there will be.
09:12The only way to deal with this kind of liability is to go to the government and say, nationalize us,
09:18please.
09:19You know, a lot of times in business, people don't say what they want.
09:22They're leading you to the conclusion.
09:24The reason why people have not understood this is, again, every investor, and there are a lot of people who
09:29think they're going to make money, they're like, oh, the businesses are the mark.
09:33What is the first lesson in poker and in life?
09:36If you think the other person's the mark, you're the mark.
09:41You are the mark.
09:43And it will be nationalized simply because of the liability issues they're talking about.
09:48Do you think the Trump administration is going to get on board with that?
09:50I don't know what they're going to do, and I think that's probably a barrier to entry.
09:54But it's like, you could delay it.
09:56You have to—there's only one—when you have unlimited liability, the only way to deal with it would be to go
10:01to the government and say, we'll give you 50 percent of our business.
10:03Of course, the value of the business will collapse first when you do that.
10:06Collapse another time when you have people on the board.
10:08Collapse another time.
10:09All of us might even collapse the whole market, but that is the way you essentially—but, again, you have to
10:14look at the philosophy of it.
10:16Again, this is where the investors have just made such a big mistake with their greed.
10:21Like, a little bit of greed is great.
10:22But, like, it's like, no, they didn't mind when the IP is being migrated from every business to an entity
10:29they own.
10:30But the next step is obviously to take that value and migrate it to the government.
10:36But, oh, that would never happen to me.
10:38And, like, and again, this is where I have tremendous respect for people like that because he's thinking ethically according
10:44to his ethical frame.
10:45He's not thinking primarily financially.
10:47This is what's made him such a great business leader.
10:50This is the reason why the best engineers, researchers want to work for him.
10:54It's the reason why he came from fifth behind to number one.
10:58This is a very, very smart, shrewd, ethical person.
11:01The ethical frame is different than the frame most of us have, which is we need to share wealth.
11:08We need to expand the wealth.
11:09We need to diverse—put more diversity in terms of who owns and who regulates and who controls.
11:16And if it started in America, it could have only been built in America.
11:20Only America would allow you to buy it.
11:23Only America provided the regulatory frame when this could have happened.
11:26America should be the final arbiter of it in the military and in regulation.
11:31And that's exactly what they do not want.
11:33It sounds like you think his examples of potential harm, right, disabling the Internet, you think those are in the
11:39realm of the possible.
11:39You're not disputing any of this.
11:41What I'm saying is, if I—let's just take nuclear energy.
11:44It's very—like, for example, one of the reasons France is still much stronger than you'd expect is they move to
11:50nuclear.
11:50If you look—interestingly, if you look at energy expenditure per unit, per person, as a function of GDP, it's America,
11:59China, Israel, and then Switzerland, roughly France.
12:03OK, so this is very—this is technology that is sharp.
12:07It's used in medicine.
12:08It's used in nuclear.
12:10It powers our deterrence above the air, below the air, in the ocean.
12:15And, OK, it can also be abused, and there are also accidents.
12:21The first step, you cannot say, I'm building something, but I have no idea how to bound it.
12:26And I don't believe that's what—but, again, I don't believe that's what they're saying.
12:29That's kind of what they're saying.
12:30No, no, that's what they're saying, but that's not what they mean.
12:33Right.
12:33What they mean is the obvious solution is America gives a risk, essentially limits the risk in return for owning
12:42it, or a national or multinational government does.
12:45That's what they're actually mean.
12:47That's not what they're saying.
12:47Because you couldn't come out to say it because somebody has—it's like two—it's like the investors are going to be,
12:52what the F?
12:53I thought someone else was the market.
12:55Right.
12:55I'm counting my huge pile of attendees.
12:57It wouldn't be great for marketing an IPO.
12:59Well, yeah, I mean, you know, people don't like finding out they're the market.
13:02But, again, the way you can avoid being in a market in life is to assume when someone is pointing
13:09out someone else is the sucker, you're the sucker.
13:12What—so you have—I mean, for people who don't realize, like Palantir, you're kind of the in-between, right, those frontier
13:18models and then the enterprise.
13:20I mean, you could think of it as you—there's something called an application layer.
13:24Historically, the reason we thrived even before people realized the safety issue was this big was that to make these
13:30models actually work precisely over very complex use cases.
13:35I think building complicated manufacturing, NVIDIA's—
13:39Food safety at Chipotle.
13:40Food safety.
13:41You're doing that?
13:41Food safety.
13:43You're doing that?
13:43NVIDIA's supply chain.
13:44Things that are very proprietary and need precision where you own the precision, you need an application layer.
13:51The application layer also allows you to use models that might otherwise not be safe, like closed models that may,
13:58in fact, be migrating your IP to them.
13:59Right, so what I was going to ask is you do a lot of this for the federal government and
14:03for the Defense Department, and so you have experience in—
14:06Well, we are the single-most enterprise software company, I believe, in the world.
14:09In the U.S., it grew 149%.
14:11We are famous for what we do on the battlefield, and on the battlefield, you have exactly these issues.
14:17Exactly, that's where I'm going.
14:18Like, you can't make these safety mistakes when you're talking about using the force.
14:21Well, it's all—you have—you have—look, you're always in the business of reducing things beyond what we could do yesterday, in
14:29safety and in positive and negative.
14:31The thing that's very important about the battlefield base, first of all, you are—you may or may not—you can help
14:40bring our men and women home.
14:41So there's, like, the safety thing, then there's the precision of what happens, and then, very interestingly, national security is
14:49different technically than people think.
14:50There's, like—even inside an enterprise, there are multiple levels of security.
14:54So, like, for example, you have levels of classification, but then there are classifications that you need to be classified
14:59to understand.
15:00So when you're on the battlefield, you're working at—when a missile lands on our enemy's head,
15:05it actually is the concatenation of data sets and precision that's owned in our ontology and in the model they
15:11use,
15:12where no single component would be able to see the other component.
15:15So it ends up being—but by the way, you have very similar issues with, like, a supply chain in NVIDIA
15:19or food safety or other—
15:21I guess what I'm wondering is how do you make sure that that's determined by a human and not by
15:25the AI?
15:26Because that's some of the—and some people say it's science fiction, but that's what some of the worry is.
15:29Well, the human-in-the-loop thing is a very, very big issue.
15:33We have powered human-in-the-loop.
15:35The complication in defense is you have different ethical standards for offense and defense.
15:42So, like, if I'm attacking you, I have to do—I'm only allowed to do X things if you're attacking me.
15:47So the problem in this context is if someone is—if, like, we're a peer-to-peer adversary,
15:52you're going to have to have a response that is not a human-in-the-loop.
15:55It's so quick.
15:56And also, with this kind of technology, you can often predict.
15:59So if we can predict you're going to attack me, is that offense or defense?
16:04Because in offense, you definitely need a human-in-the-loop.
16:07In defense, there's going to be no time.
16:09Okay, what if I can predict in 35 seconds or in three hours you're going to attack me?
16:13Is that offense or defense?
16:15And so there are a lot of—the reason why you really—unfortunately, many of my academic colleagues don't want to hear
16:21this.
16:21You really have to pick a side because, in the end, America, in all its greatness, is not—is a country,
16:28and we're not perfect, but we are great.
16:31It is a decision.
16:32And, by the way, I've spent half my life studying Chinese culture.
16:34I'm a very high-level practitioner of Tai Chi, one of the four great treasures.
16:39I'm in no way xenophobic towards—I have great admiration for—it's one of the oldest, most productive cultures in the world.
16:46I can give you long lectures on this, but in the end, there's a choice.
16:49Europe has decided to not participate.
16:52Israel is small.
16:54Where is a choice?
16:55Is it us making these very hard decisions that will be imperfect, or is it them?
16:59So, next week, when Xi and the president meet, can they agree on some shared risks?
17:05I mean, I would love it if it happened.
17:07I think it is unlikely we are going to—the problem is we're tight enough as competitors that both sides believe
17:16they could win.
17:16And so, I would—look, I would love it if it happened.
17:20I'm not in that room.
17:21I would—if it happened, we'd all be happier.
17:24If Palantir, we'd be happier.
17:25If you could have some kind of framework where the two dominant countries could control it, that would change the
17:31world.
17:31I would be surprised if it happened.
17:33I was going to ask your perspective on some of these—on the wars.
17:37I mean, you have said, and you have said, we have the best technology, and we have the—we're winning the
17:41AI race, and we have companies like Palantir working on it.
17:44And yet, you know, Ukraine war, Iran war, we're kind of in these stuck places right now.
17:50You know, when you're talking about battlefield performance for Ukraine is a good example.
17:55Every day—when I got there day five, there was not a single person who didn't think they were going to
17:59lose.
18:00Like, so, you haven't always had to look at what happened against expectations.
18:04and that the countries that are in the West that are—are wield these technologies are Ukraine, Israel, and America.
18:11I guarantee you, if you've got a classified report from China or Russia, one of their biggest concerns would be
18:18the systemic outperformance of these countries on the battlefield where these technologies have been implemented.
18:24Guaranteed.
18:25In fact, you know, as far as is possible for me to know that without knowing it because I don't
18:29interact with those countries, I can tell you this is true.
18:32Do you think that deters them from Taiwan or something else?
18:35Look, there are a lot of variables that go into these decisions.
18:40The diagnostic of America and its capabilities on the battlefield, it means that if they believe we were actually to
18:47use them, it's just a much higher threshold.
18:50But, you know, I mean, like, these things are not as—like, these are multivariable equations and also, quite frankly, often
18:57have to do with domestic things that we often overlook.
19:00Like, when you attack may just have to do with, like, what is your stature at home?
19:06So is there anything, if you saw it in the models that they were doing in these AI companies, where
19:11you would—that would freak you out and say, we can't—like, we have to draw the line and we can't use
19:17this?
19:17I mean, it's—this is a situation where we all need to—first of all, we need to get serious.
19:22You know, we're talking about, like, we—like, I'm always telling people in different contexts, you know, there is a rule
19:29here for every—every single business person looking at the show, every single business that's listed or not listed has a
19:35set of rules.
19:35It's called, I deliver products that are—where I do not deliver them if I believe them to be harmful.
19:41You just have to start there.
19:43And, again, I think the discussion that we're having is not what this is about.
19:47I think the discussion we're having is I want to do things.
19:50I want new rules for myself, and I don't want to pay the cost—true cost of that, which is liability,
19:56primarily civil, but potentially, obviously, criminal.
20:00And that every single—this is why the business people—I mean, I talk to business people every day.
20:05I've never seen them this angry.
20:07Like, it's like—and every conversation is like this.
20:09Wait a minute.
20:10They got my IP.
20:11They want to play by rules I don't play by, whether that's a hospital service, doctors, real estate.
20:17Every single business person in the country worries every day about doing something that they didn't even know was harmful.
20:25Forget knowing was harmful.
20:27You can ruin your business with something—I know, it's crazy.
20:30Like, you find out there's something in your product.
20:33You did your absolute best to keep out of the product.
20:36You still can be found liable.
20:39Like, what, you think the plaintiff's attorneys are running up there saying, oh, gee whiz.
20:43They didn't mean it.
20:44No, they didn't mean it.
20:45No, you're paying your billions of dollars.
20:48You lose your house.
20:50You lose your future.
20:52So they should face—
20:53No, I'm just saying you can't change the rule book.
20:57But again, I don't actually—do not underestimate Dario's talent.
21:01That's not what he's actually saying.
21:04What he's actually saying is this technology is so unique,
21:07It can only be harnessed in a multi-jurisdictional, meaning more than one country.
21:12And I can only do it if you—if I get to transfer all liability concerns within a million—up to a
21:19million dollars to the U.S. government.
21:21And probably European and Canadian governments would be the fantasy.
21:24And in return—
21:25But even Elon Musk was sort of like in agreement with this.
21:28Look, I can't comment on what everyone's saying.
21:30I'm just telling you what's happening.
21:31I don't know.
21:32Like, I don't—you know, we're down.
21:34We have this massively growing business.
21:36I barely get time for error.
21:38It's like we're building our products.
21:41We are going to own Ontology and North, fine-tuning the models, fine-tuning the open-weight models, controlling.
21:48The sovereign movement was primarily launched by us and NVIDIA.
21:53And, like, it's just like—it's like you're a rock band.
21:56I have these huge stadiums of people who want their sovereignty.
21:59So I'm just telling you—
22:01That's a pretty high valuation on your stock.
22:03Do you think the market doesn't appreciate this?
22:07I—look, I mean, we are obviously so systemically undervalued.
22:10But it's OK.
22:11It's because people are—look, investors—first of all, investors really did fall for I'm going to make a ton of money.
22:18There's no liability.
22:19It's all upside.
22:19All the alpha goes to them.
22:21And therefore, every value of business is—OK, great.
22:24Then these are very technical things.
22:26What does it mean to be sovereign?
22:27What does it mean to train a model?
22:28Are the—like, you have to—the more you go into the granular details of our business and, like, how everybody wants
22:34to do it,
22:35The mere fact, the sovereign movement is so much bigger.
22:37We need partners.
22:38We cannot scale into our U.S. market.
22:41I have people calling me from, like, very important allies, and I'm like, look, we can't deploy.
22:46I can't take someone out of the U.S. market.
22:48Like, these are, like, crucial deployments where, honestly, we have the only thing that works.
22:53But it's like—
22:54Because capacity?
22:55You just—
22:55Capacity.
22:56It's like we have—we're motley 4,500—we basically—think of it like every company.
23:033,600 people are the—we're, I would say, are the best—obviously the best in the world.
23:08And we're just—we, like, every single one of them has, like—I have one guy from England.
23:14Like, I literally, to get the job done, I have, like, okay, just pretend you're three people.
23:19Work around the clock.
23:19I'll pay you for it.
23:20There's no other way to do it.
23:22Why?
23:23Because you can't find enough good people?
23:24Well, it's—I mean, it's, like—hiring and training people to be full Palantirians is a process,
23:32and the market is expanding way beyond the way what we can do.
23:36And so, yeah, the market is expanding because, like, if you want to talk about customer demand,
23:42every single person I deal with is either on the sovereign thing or wants to be on it,
23:48or even skeptics, you literally talk to them in five seconds.
23:51You're like, well, how do you feel about this and this?
23:54And they're like, oh, wow.
23:55It's, like—it's everywhere.
23:56And the depth of passion around this in enterprises—like, I've been at this for 20 years.
24:01I've been—I was—we led the anti-terror revolution.
24:05We led the defense tech revolution.
24:07We led—with Foundry, like, products that work revolution, especially in the U.S.
24:12We led the application layer.
24:14We're the first to do the sovereign thing.
24:15And, like—and I've never seen anything like this.
24:19Like, every single minute you're not in this country, you are losing money.
24:24Really quick, before I let you go, on—Dario has an example.
24:27What are the odds that that model, his model, doesn't survive?
24:31And what are the implications for stocks and everything else if it doesn't?
24:35I—look, I don't—look, I—I—I—I think he is a—one of the great legends in tech
24:42and business, and I'm not wishing them not to survive.
24:45I think, obviously, everyone's going to move to only using a product and application layer
24:49that's good for them because—and it's obviously better for us, but we were right.
24:56And—but the future is going to be enterprises using multiple models, some open, some closed.
25:03They're going to really—where you have actual secrets in alpha, they're all going to move
25:07to open models.
25:08And where it's, like, marketing in Argentina and the person wants to use a closed model,
25:12they'll do that.
25:13I just say, I wonder about the politics of all of this.
25:15Bernie Sanders wants to now ban superintelligence.
25:19Elizabeth Warren also is calling for a pause in AI development.
25:22It's not just the left.
25:23We have to be, like—
25:24That's both sides.
25:25It's—it's—it's—it's—it's the far right and far left.
25:28First of all, they're right about the unpopularity, both of the movement and of the people.
25:34And they're taking advantage of the fact that the—that the present—presentation
25:39of the technology by the people doing it could not be worse.
25:44So, like, my—honestly, if you want to take the far right and the far left, you can't
25:48hate the player because they understand the game.
25:49Ah, it's shock talk day.
25:50Yeah.
25:51They—they—they—they—they're just monetizing.
25:53They understand the political landscape.
25:56Are they right?
25:57No.
25:57But are there elements in truth of what they're saying?
25:59Of course, they're abusing elements of truth.
26:01But the core truth that they understand is you guys have repped yourself as if you do not
26:06have the sense God gave a goat.
26:08You are unlikable, and you're going to be 50 times richer, and we're not down for it.
26:12Then the solutions are only going to help our adversaries.
26:15But again, it's not just Bernie Sanders and Liz Warren or whoever.
26:19These are people—by the way, I happen to—if you're listening, I agree with you guys on
26:23a lot of issues.
26:24Poor people in this country do not get a fair shake.
26:27That's true, and I'm not certain that they're going to get that much of a better shake in
26:31five or six years.
26:32We agree.
26:33You're still—you're still calling yourself a liberal progressive, Alex?
26:35I am an actual progressive.
26:37Okay.
26:37Actual progressives want poor people, working-class people to have better lives.
26:42What I disagree with, Thelma, is that this isn't going to help.
26:45But again, you can't go to the player and say, you created the game.
26:49I'm not going to monetize it.
26:50They're absolutely doing what they need to do.
26:53We need to do a better job of doing what we need to do.
26:56Which is talking about the benefits and responsibilities.
26:58In any case, thank you very much.
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