- 10 minutes ago
WIRED Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond speaks with MS NOW President Rebecca Kutler about competing with Fox and future-proofing the newsroom by tapping into the creator economy. Katie and Rebecca also talk about navigating Trump 2.0, MS NOW’s political Venn diagram and the media shifts that led to their subsequent digital consolidation.
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00:00The thing about television and why I've wanted to build my career there and loved it so much
00:06is it is literally the definition of a team sport.
00:10There is no thing that you can do in TV on your own.
00:14I don't care how brilliant or great you are.
00:16If you don't have your 20 to 30 to 40 closest friends helping you, it's not going to make it
00:22on TV.
00:23And when did you join MSNBC?
00:25Get me the timeline.
00:27Yeah, let me remember the timeline.
00:28I think it was around it was right before the midterms in 2022.
00:33OK, so I had grown up at CNN.
00:36I spent more than 20 years there.
00:38I left earlier in 2022 and some folks that I knew and really respected reached out from then MSNBC.
00:46And they talked about one of those jobs that kind of has a lot of running room.
00:51And it's kind of like a little ambiguous, but in the best way.
00:56And I thought, yeah, let's check it out.
00:59I started at MSNBC running their digital businesses, basically all their nonlinear businesses.
01:08And it gave me a real opportunity to learn the building and learn the place, but also think about what
01:15are the missed opportunities that we could take advantage of in the next few years.
01:20And at some point in your tenure, you took on the whole thing.
01:24Yes.
01:24And what did you feel like, because this is driving towards this subscription offering that you're launching.
01:29What were those big opportunities, those big challenges that you identified when you looked at the whole portfolio and thought
01:35to yourself like,
01:37Ugh, what are we going to do here?
01:40What were you trying to solve for?
01:41So one of the things that immediately struck me when I came over was the fandom.
01:49So I had worked in other newsrooms.
01:52I have friends who work in other newsrooms.
01:54Um, I always, I love the news and love what we do, but I had never worked at a place
02:01where the audience really sees themselves as fans and fans of, and a deep, deep connection to talent.
02:11So, um, it's the kind of thing, it was immediately clear to me when, um, when I joined MS, it
02:19was also at the same time Jen Psaki joined and we had known each other a little from a previous
02:23life.
02:24So we went out into the field together and, uh, just did a few kind of pretty straightforward kind of
02:30field reporting pieces.
02:32And I've walked through the airports over my career with a lot of different anchors and news types of people.
02:38I've never had the experience of walking through with Jen, just the, um, and that's why she was a great
02:46fit for MS.
02:47She was someone that you could see people were behind and, and in, and we're rooting for and, um, had
02:56a deeper connection with.
02:58And, and I think there, um, when you think about Rachel Maddow and how she lands and how, when a
03:08book, I mean, if you, if you talk to you, you're very close to this industry.
03:12If you talk to anyone in publishing and ask them where they would ideally like to debut their book, I
03:20think most of them would say the Rachel Maddow show.
03:22And there's a reason for that. Um, the, the audience loyalty and engagement with Rachel has been proven over decades.
03:32It's funny when she shares a Wired story on social media, the traffic to that story and the engagement on
03:38her social around Wired is crazy.
03:40I can tell you firsthand, looking at the analytics, like you can feel it, you can see it. It's remarkable.
03:45And I want to ask you more about talent in a minute, but that brings me to a great place
03:49to mention this membership program that you're, you're launching.
03:52So I'm going to read from the press release, which I very rarely do, but you will offer quote new
03:57opportunities for members to interact directly with the brands, trusted journalists, exclusive community features to engage with each other, a
04:04new roster of contributors and experts, original creator content, new verticals that explore how news and politics impacts everyday life
04:12and 24 seven access to live streams and linear programming.
04:15So you guys have been busy. Um, but in layman's terms, if someone's listening to this or watching this and
04:21they're an MS now viewer, they watch it on TV.
04:24Sometimes they see it on social. What should they expect from this? What are they getting that they're not already
04:29getting by, you know, having cable TV?
04:31I want to answer your question directly, but I just don't want to assume your audience is the MS now
04:37audience. So if you'll allow me 30 seconds, give us your best pitch.
04:40I want to just step back and reintroduce MS now. We launched as a brand, a new brand around 18
04:47months ago. Um, and people traditionally see us as this cable channel and that's great. We have a huge cable
04:54audience. We're actually right now, the number two most watched channel in all of cable, not all of cable news,
05:01all of cable. So that's ahead of ESPN, HGTV, TBS, TNT.
05:06Who's number one?
05:07Fox.
05:07I see. Okay. We might talk more about that later.
05:09And then, um, but that's just one piece of our business. We have right now a digital business before we
05:17even launch what we're launching this week. That is, has more uniques than places like Axios and Politico, um, the
05:26Atlantic, um, people spend more time with us digitally than places like the Washington Post and NPR. And then on
05:33YouTube, we have been quite efficient at building out our presence in that space.
05:39So we have more clicks on YouTube than ABC News, NBC News, NBC News, and CBS News combined. So I
05:47say all of that to say we are starting from a position of strength. And then I'll come back to
05:52answer your question.
05:53What we are excited about and why we're launching this product is all of those digital things I just mentioned.
06:01We don't have a way to catch all those people if they're not going to be watching cable. So the
06:07purpose of this membership is twofold.
06:09It's one taking our current super fans that watch us on linear and giving them more. So what are they
06:17going to get? They're going to get direct access to our talent. Seven days a week at noon and at
06:236 p.m.
06:24If you are a member of the MSNOW community, you can hop on and directly interact with one of our
06:31anchors or one of our reporters on Monday. It's going to be Rachel Maddow. And then you go through the
06:36week. You're going to hear from Michael Steele. You're going to hear from Jen Psaki. You're going to hear from
06:41Rev, Reverend Al Sharpton.
06:42You're going to hear from the people that you know and love from watching them on MSNOW and have the
06:48opportunity to ask them your question directly and not just interact with our talent, but also interact with each other.
06:56So when we started this process around a year and a half ago, we didn't just kind of sit in
07:02a conference room and think, hmm, let's make like another commodity news app because let's be honest, a lot of
07:10that already exists.
07:12What we did was actually start from a place of product research. So we went out to 18,000 people.
07:21We did surveys. We did in-person interviews. And we have spent the last year and a half taking that
07:29research and getting to where we are this week.
07:32And where we are this week is just the beginning. What I most want people to know is what you
07:40see this week will look vastly different six months from now and a year from now if we're doing our
07:48jobs right.
07:48What we need to do is build and learn and test and add investment and expand where we need to,
07:57but not really think that we're going to get it all right on day one, but give ourselves that latitude.
08:03I'm curious about the imperative here, maybe if that's the right word. Is the goal to pull linear viewers onto
08:15digital or is it to better engage the digital audience or both?
08:20It's both. So all those people consuming us on YouTube, on digital, on social, in audio, we have done some
08:29research. 90% of those people do not regularly consume us on linear television.
08:34So a big function of this product is to say, hey, you're watching YouTube videos all the time of Lawrence
08:42O'Donnell. Maybe you're not someone who's going to be a cable subscriber. Okay. But can you come join our community
08:50in another capacity?
08:52Can we create a product that entices you to be part of an MS Now community, even if you're someone
09:00who's reluctant to become a cable customer? So we're trying to do both and and create two slightly different use
09:11cases.
09:11Your audience and your intended audience. I was wondering, I would say that for the average person, if you ask
09:20them like Fox News, MS Now, who do those networks reach? Who do those brands reach? I would say Fox
09:27News reaches Republicans and that's who has it on TV. That's who's going to that website. I would say MS
09:32Now reaches progressives, Democrats, left-leaning people.
09:36Is that a stated goal for you? Or do you want that tent to be bigger? It sounds like you
09:43want to welcome people from all political affiliations, but I want to hear that from you. I'm curious.
09:48Yeah. Is the audience for MS Now different than the audience for Fox? Of course it is. There's probably like
09:54a small amount of overlap, but not a lot. And that's okay. But we want to be a place like,
10:01I'll just give you an example.
10:02Um, when I think forward to election night, I got to say, I think there's nowhere I'd rather hang out
10:09on election night than at our table with Rachel and Nicole and Lawrence and Chris and Michael and everyone.
10:15Like we, what we try to do is, um, um, respect our audience and be a fun place. And, and
10:24a place where again, Michael Steele is a big part of our election night. He was chairman of the Republican
10:30National Committee.
10:31Right. You know, so we, we have a broad range of views. Um, but I think they all fall under
10:38that pro-democracy banner.
10:40Are you competitive? Like, do you, do you want to beat Fox? Is that like, do you want to see
10:45that number one?
10:46Do you think about that? I want to have, look, I'm, I'm a, I am a pretty competitive person. Um,
10:52I think I just see who our competition is as wider than kind of like that typical cable landscape.
10:59Uh, I want to build a great product right now and have, um, a large membership community. And I want
11:08to make sure that we are competing on every battlegrounds. And that is yes, absolutely on cable. Yes. On digital.
11:18Yes. On YouTube. Yes. In audio.
11:20Um, I think that because of the life that this brand lived under previous ownership, pre-spin, um, there were
11:31times when our wings were clipped a little from a business perspective. And that wasn't, if I was sitting in
11:39the seats of the leadership team at NBC, I might've made the same decisions. Um, that model, when you're working
11:46for a very large, very successful company that NBC is,
11:50NBCUniversal and Comcast are, they need to look at the whole company and figure out where best to invest their
11:58dollars. So what they did make sense for them. But now we're lucky to be a part of Versant, uh,
12:05where MS Now is, uh, a very successful part of Versant. And Versant has several pieces of their portfolio that
12:15we are lucky enough that generate a lot of cash.
12:18What is Versant? For someone who might not know what Versant is, what is Versant?
12:23Yeah. Versant is the spinoff. So a spin out of NBCUniversal. So for folks that weren't following along day by
12:31day, um, around 18 months ago, um, NBCUniversal spun out a series of businesses. Those include what is now MS
12:42Now, CNBC, uh, brands like E, you know, Live from the Red Carpet, all of that.
12:48And then, um, golf. So it's a variety of businesses across media. We are now, um, part of a company
12:58that is incentivized to invest the money that we earn as MS Now back into MS Now.
13:04We're just no longer part of a company that has to invest in theme parks and other things that, for
13:10that company, that made a lot of sense. But for Versant, uh, it makes more sense to allow MS Now
13:15to invest in ourselves.
13:17You've mentioned a few times that you are a real behemoth on cable television. I mean, number two to Fox,
13:23et cetera. I don't think it's a secret that cable, cable news audiences are declining. And I'm going to ask
13:29this in, in the bluntest possible way. You know, that's an older audience, significantly older than a digital one. What
13:36do you do when they die? How are you thinking about that?
13:38So I think I am not blind to the long-term challenges. That's why we are investing in digital and
13:46building quickly.
13:46But do I think the cable business right now for MS Now is quite healthy? I do. And do I
13:54have a lot of respect for our audience who comes and joins us every morning, noon, and night? And we
14:01have one of the highest loyalty engagement numbers in all of television. Our average viewer, average, watches nine hours a
14:12week.
14:12That is a lot of MS Now. That's a lot of MS Now. That's a lot. So, um, do I
14:18like wake up in a panic in the middle of the night? No. Do I know there are long-term
14:24challenges? Yes. That's why we're launching a DTC product.
14:28What do you wake up at night worrying about? I mean, I think for anyone listening, just if you're not
14:32aware, working in media and journalism is hard. It's a hard business.
14:37And these are really difficult transformations to try to undertake and to undertake successfully. What's the hardest part of this
14:45for you right now?
14:46What I wake up with angsty about sometimes is, you know, I know we have this guest or that guest
14:54coming up, but like, I grew up in this school of TV of like the upgrade. Like, how can we
15:00upgrade? How can we make it better?
15:02What is the better question? What is the better way in? I might be old school when I say this,
15:08but I think like content wins always every single race.
15:12And if you have like the thing, it's going to do you far more than all sorts of other like
15:21marketing dollars and product and all those things are incredibly important to get right.
15:26But at the end of the day, if your content isn't excellent.
15:30Yeah.
15:31You're in trouble.
15:32I want to ask more about talent.
15:34We talked about it a bit at the top.
15:35You do have some real sort of fandom magnets.
15:40I think one of the biggest challenges in publishing today, especially on digital, is that it is so noisy.
15:45There is so much competition.
15:46It's not just news, but it's everything on someone's Instagram feed.
15:50It's everything on their TikTok.
15:52It's, you know, recipe videos and random influencers and so on and so forth.
15:58How do you encourage your journalists, your talent, to break through that in a digital context?
16:06You know, when I think about I'll just pick on Chris Hayes for a minute here, because like there's almost
16:13no time that I talk to Chris Hayes that I don't then hang up the phone or walk out of
16:18his office and think to myself, like that guy's brain is huge.
16:22Like, like, like I just learned 17 things that I didn't even think of something there.
16:27And I think that's the answer to your question of how do you break through?
16:32Every brand and every place in media has to figure out what their breakthrough is.
16:37Look, there's people who want to break through by showing cat videos all day.
16:41Yes.
16:41There's people who want to break through by writing outrageous headlines that aren't really based in facts.
16:47Where I want MS Now to break through is being brainiacs, is, is coming to the table with something that
16:56is intellectually interesting, that is showing me something or teaching me something or adding value to a news story in
17:06a way I hadn't thought about it before of drawing on their experience, decades of experience working in the room,
17:14you know, being in the room where it happened.
17:16So what I ask each of our hosts to do is think where can you add value and then how
17:24can you make sure, and this is on all of us, how are we showing up with the audience in
17:31a way that they can see the value, in a way that they understand that what you're bringing to the
17:37table is different than some random person with, you know,
17:43So 1% of the experience or thought that you spent your day, I mean, again, just going back to
17:50Chris, you know, Ari, the same way, like, these guys write their shows.
17:54They're not just the talking head who's showing up and grabbing a script.
17:57If you call one of them a couple hours before their show, they are sitting there, tapping it out, framing
18:04it out, and I think it shows.
18:07I think when you watch what they have to say, it is differentiated because they rolled up their sleeves and
18:17gave of themselves to the audience.
18:19What has the experience been like of transitioning some of the maybe more TV comfortable talent that you have who
18:30are accustomed to doing a, you know, a cable news show and saying to them, now you do these, you
18:36know, interactive sessions with our audience or you're going to.
18:39Now you do TikTok. Now you do, now you participate in these other parts of the ecosystem.
18:44What has that been like for you as the boss and maybe not to speak for them, and I realize
18:49I'm asking you to talk about your employees on the show, but for them as talent and as, you know,
18:55figureheads for this brand?
18:56Yeah. One of my rules is don't do anything that feels weird for you.
19:03And what I mean by that is if you in your own life don't use TikTok, I don't recommend trying
19:10to become a TikToker.
19:12Like it's going to land weird, you know, like we've seen it.
19:16So what I have encouraged our shows, our hosts, everyone in the IMS Now family is don't try to be
19:24everywhere.
19:24Don't try to be everything. Try to do where feels organic and where native to you and your talents and
19:34your audience and where you actually spend time.
19:37Because I think that's where you find success.
19:41I mean, a great example, Simone Sanders is fantastic at TikTok and Instagram because she grew up in those spaces
19:51and knows those audiences.
19:55That might not be the same for Lawrence O'Donnell. Lawrence O'Donnell is a huge hit on YouTube.
20:01So, like, we don't need to make everyone famous on every platform.
20:06We need to be smart and thoughtful and intentional about where people can succeed.
20:14What has Trump 2.0 been like for you guys over there?
20:18I mean, have you seen an audience bump? Have you seen fatigue?
20:22And how are you thinking about breaking through on that story?
20:27I mean, it's the challenge with the story of Trump 2.0 is that there are a thousand stories a
20:32day.
20:32How are you thinking about reaching your audience in a way that can grab them and hold them on that?
20:39Yeah. What I want our audience to know is that we are who we are and we're proud of who
20:49we are.
20:50And you can come to us on any platform at any time and trust that you are getting our best
20:58reporting and our best analysis without fear.
21:02And we haven't talked about it yet, but as part of the spin, we also had to build our entire
21:08own newsroom.
21:10What we tried to do is build our newsroom knowing the moment and not trying to, again, we're not trying
21:17to be commodity news.
21:18We're trying to build an absolutely kick-ass D.C. newsroom, and I think we've done that.
21:25We started to break a lot of news in D.C.
21:28Sue Deep Reddy, who is our D.C. bureau chief there, came from Politico and the Wall Street Journal and
21:35has just assembled a really, really strong team.
21:38So what we're trying to do is win where our audience wants more.
21:45And those, the basic pillars of that are White House Congress, justice, courts, all of that is one bucket, national
21:54security.
21:55And then we hired Shauna Thomas, who is just like—
21:58She's great.
21:59Big, big, big brain.
22:01Yeah.
22:02And came from CBS and before that NBC and just like one of the smartest people that understands how politics
22:11and media kind of work together.
22:13She's our political director, and she is building a team of killers to cover.
22:19We're already covering 2026, but really 2028.
22:22You guys, I mean, one of the very few media brands in growth mode right now.
22:26It's impressive.
22:27Speaking of, I'm curious about the Ellison-Warner Brothers-Discovery merger, combined CNN and CBS under one owner.
22:35Of course, you know, CBS at the very least under the leadership of Barry Weiss.
22:39I want to know sort of big picture your concerns about that possibility in particular.
22:46I'm also curious about what it means for MS now when you sort of look at that possibility.
22:52Is that potentially—is this consolidation maybe good for you?
22:56Like, does this help you even if the broader implications of it are in some ways troubling?
23:03Like, walk me through your calculus on that.
23:04Yeah, so in a functioning, healthy democracy, you need a very healthy, free, and fair press.
23:12So I am only and always rooting for better, stronger newsrooms.
23:19I worked most of my career at CNN, and while they might be technically a competitor or a rival now,
23:28the world is a better place with a stronger CNN.
23:31I would agree.
23:33Rebecca, thank you so much for being here. This was great.
23:35Thank you for the opportunity.
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