00:00So, as India is gearing up for the BRICS summit, and we are today going to discuss how economic impact
00:07of BRICS summit is going to happen.
00:09Today, I am joined by Mr. Rajiv Kumar, who is the former Vice Chairman of Neeti Aayog. Welcome to IT
00:13Bharat, sir.
00:15Thank you, Shah Rukh. Lovely to be here.
00:18So, first of all, I just wanted to know from you that as India leads this BRICS summit, what should
00:24be the key priorities, key economic agenda from India perspective?
00:29What can we expect from this summit and what should be visible there?
00:35Yeah. Saurabh, I am quite clear on India's priorities, which must be to try and use the BRICS platform, which,
00:46by the way, is now very powerful with the joining of the new countries now, the 11 countries.
00:51And so, it has got all the capital surplus countries, energy surplus countries, plus it's got the population of the
00:59two largest countries.
01:00So, it's a very, you know, it's a very powerful forum now and a powerful platform, which can shape the
01:07global order, you know.
01:09And so, to use that global order to try and bring greater stability, greater, lesser uncertainty, less turbulence, you know,
01:19and stop this process of, you know, conflicts and fragmentation in the world.
01:24Because, you know, at the end of the day, as we have all seen, all these things are detrimental to
01:31the Indian interest, you know, because, you know, with the Middle East crisis, the oil prices go up, with the
01:36Ukraine-Russia crisis, you know, our food prices go up.
01:39And then, also, the investor climate, you know, becomes, you know, very, you know, very sort of weak and very
01:47dodgy, as it were.
01:48So, I believe the BRICS economies today contribute more than the G7 economies.
01:54So, to that extent, I think India must use it for bringing about, you know, reversing this negative tide, which
02:05is taking over the world.
02:06Let me put it like this, because at the moment, we are in the mix of a sort of negativism,
02:11you know, and therefore, the world is losing its optimism, and that affects investment, and that's not good for India.
02:20Right, sir.
02:21So, as you talked about the negativism and the optimism, so we are seeing so many things from the U
02:25.S. side, and as U.S. is not part of this summit.
02:28Right. So, do you think this will be a kind of challenge for India to talk with these nations, keeping
02:35U.S. interests intact, or what should India do now?
02:40Well, you know, India is the founder member of BRICS, and so to that extent, along with, you know, the
02:49three other countries, you know, which was BRIC, Brazil, Russia, and India, and then South Africa.
02:54So, these four owe it to themselves to strengthen and reinforce BRICS as far as possible, you know, and to
03:01make it a formidable actor on the global order.
03:06Now, if that implies, you know, challenging the Washington consensus or the American hegemony in the world, I think, to
03:18that extent, I would say so be it.
03:20And therefore, I'm not so sure that we need to be, you know, we need to be voicing or we
03:28need to be representing in any way U.S. interests in the BRICS platform.
03:33That will, in some sense, weaken our stand and also weaken our credibility amongst the other members.
03:41Now, you know, and strategic autonomy doesn't call for representing other countries' interests in different fora, you know.
03:48And the Prime Minister, you know, is a past master of that when he goes to, you know, the Shanghai
03:54Cooperative Organization, you know, recently, I mean, you know, it was that focus, you know, to bring together the Euro
04:01-Asian countries and the Euro-Asian economy.
04:04So I think to that extent, India would do well to focus on the agenda at hand in BRICS and
04:12one of the, which is not included in the threefold agenda that's been declared, but which, as I said, one
04:19of them must be and will be to bring about, to lower the level of turbulence in the world today.
04:25Because that is negatively affecting all countries together, you know, in whichever part of the world.
04:33So let us talk about the country's specifics, sir, as our relations were not that much so good with the
04:39China and China is a part of this summit and China is also coming.
04:44So how should we kind of renegotiate our trade with the China?
04:49Is this the right time, right opportunity to deal with the China or extend our trade relations with the China?
04:58Sort of BRICS is not the platform to discuss in-depth bilateral relations and bilateral issues, you know, because that
05:06has to be done independently, separately.
05:08And I think that is why our national security advisor, Mr. Doval, visited Beijing and met with his counterpart, Wang
05:15Yi, you know, when he was there.
05:16And, you know, but you're absolutely right in saying that we need to, in a way, mend our fences with
05:25China because they are our largest neighbor.
05:28They are the second largest economy in the world.
05:31President Xi Jinping is coming here.
05:34And Xi Jinping, President Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Modi enjoyed a very strong rapport, you know, in the past.
05:42If you remember, pre-Dalwan, you know, the Ahmedabad visit for Xi Jinping or Xi'an visit by our Prime
05:50Minister, you know, and Mahabalipuram.
05:52So I think what we can use the BRICS platform today is to raise the level of trust between the
06:03two countries.
06:03Once again, try to create one, recreate the Bonhomi that was there and use this summit.
06:12As, for example, Kaizen was used, you know, for restarting the dialogue between us and India because that's where the
06:19two people met on the sidelines.
06:21And that, so I think BRICS is a sort of a platform where, you know, the good environment needs to
06:30be, you know, created so that the bilateral talks can then take deeper meaning and go further than where we
06:38are at the moment.
06:39Right. So, sir, as Prime Minister Modi has also mentioned many times that our vision is to be a developed
06:46nation by 2047.
06:47So can this summit be used as an opportunity for a lot of problems which all over the world are
06:56the BRICS nations are also facing like energy solutions, climate change, renewable energy and all?
07:02So will this be a platform which would set a tempo for these issues?
07:06Sort of this goes back to my, you know, your first question and my first answer, which is that BRICS
07:12as a global platform can be used to improve the global economic and global trade environment.
07:21And as I said, to reverse the negativism because, I mean, you know, it's very clear that if India has
07:26to achieve its developed economy status,
07:29it will have to become a much, much more integrated and greater part of world trade, and that will not
07:36happen if protectionism is on the rise.
07:38So, I mean, I'm hoping that BRICS will come out with a very, you know, very, very strong statement against,
07:45you know, protectionism and a strong statement against,
07:48in favor of, you know, rule-based global world order, you know, and things like that, because what we don't
07:57want in our march towards 2047 is a fragmented global economy
08:02where all the protectionist barriers are up, you know, by the developed and the developing economy, because that will be
08:08bad for us.
08:09That will not be good for us.
08:10And also, the BRICS can, you know, come out against weaponizing trade or economy or finance, because I think that's
08:19also that's happening,
08:20because that's not something which will help us in any way.
08:24So, I think if BRICS all together, you know, have a, you know, sort of a telling statement, you know,
08:38of bringing together the world pre-these conflicts,
08:42or, you know, if you like, if I may be blunt, you know, pre-Trump, you know, if you like,
08:47I mean, then I think it will help us achieve our purpose
08:52of accelerating our growth, while at the same time, protecting our environment, because I think the Nepal tragedy shows very
09:00clearly,
09:01which, by the way, I think brings me to a very important point, which is that BRICS should be used,
09:08must be used,
09:09to remind all of us and the member countries that environment is a public good, and we all have to
09:17take care of it together,
09:19because if we don't, then the tragedy that we saw in Nepal will be repeated more often and in more
09:25devastating forms than we have seen today.
09:27So, I think it is in the interest of all the BRIC members that they reinforce the environment platform, which
09:35again, unfortunately, Mr. Trump may not like,
09:39but nonetheless, given there are such large energy producers now within BRICS, you know, both Iran and Saudi Arabia,
09:50I think are there, and the UAE, etc. So, I think if they can come out with a resounding statement
09:58in favor of protecting the environment,
10:00reducing the carbon footprint, and creating global conditions for accelerating the growth of developing economies,
10:10I think this summit would have served a very important purpose.
10:15Right.
10:16So, another issue was the de-dollarization.
10:19So, I have spoke to many corporate who voiced a kind of de-dollarization thing,
10:24and they believe that if something can happen regarding rupee trade with the other countries or the same similar currency
10:31trade,
10:31this kind of platform, something can happen regarding this?
10:34I'm not sure, and I'm not gung-ho about it.
10:37And I'll rather, you know, leave that as be, and for that to,
10:42because there is no reason to wave a red flag in front of the U.S. about, while talking about
10:53de-dollarization.
10:54It's not going to happen so quickly.
10:57BRICS is a collection of very disparate economies.
11:01I'm not, you know, there is some local currency trade already within the BRICS countries.
11:08I think let's let that happen, let that take its own organic growth.
11:13There is no reason to push that agenda forward.
11:17It's too early, it's too premature, you know, to do that.
11:22And so, therefore, you know, I don't think it will serve India's interest to be a party to that agenda.
11:30So, is PM going to hold so many bilaterals as well, including China, Russia, and other countries?
11:37So, if we, I talk about specifically for Russia, if both the leaders are going to meet today.
11:44So, what you expect from that meeting, what would come out?
11:49Well, you know, Indo-Russian tribes are fraternal.
11:55They go back decades.
11:56And I've been a witness to the very strong rupee-ruble trade, you know, pre-1991, you know, before the
12:05breakup of the Soviet Union.
12:07And, you know, they are still the largest suppliers for our defense equipment, etc.
12:13So, what I expect, you know, the Prime Minister's discussion and the Prime Minister and President Putin, I think are
12:23two things.
12:24One, how to reinforce, how to expand our economic ties, our technology ties, you know, our innovation ties,
12:34which will include maybe opening the, what is called the Eastern Corridor, which is from Vladivostok to the Eastern ports
12:42of the Indian subcontinent.
12:44And that's all economic part of it.
12:46And the second part of it is, I think, which goes back to my first point,
12:51the Prime Minister's emphasis to President Putin to do whatever he can to end the conflict in Europe.
12:59Because that will be a very good step forward for a more coherent and a more peaceful and less turbulent
13:07global situation.
13:09So, same with China.
13:11We have a huge trade deficit between India and China.
13:15We buy more than we are selling to China.
13:18So, do you expect in bilateral something can happen?
13:21I don't think so.
13:23As I said earlier, this is not the occasion.
13:25This is not the platform to discuss bilateral issues in that depth.
13:30And, you know, the Indo-Sino-Indian trade deficit trade relationship is a very, you know, sort of,
13:42it's a very, what you say, it's a contentious issue in some sense, you know.
13:46And, therefore, that is better discussed in separate fora.
13:51Because, you know, this forum is much better suited to create the positive atmospherics
13:59for the relationship to be developed further, rather than go into the detail and nitty-gritty.
14:06There can be a reiteration of reinforcing, expanding, building, strengthening India-China economic ties
14:18across all dimensions, whether it is trade or it's technology or investment or third country investment, etc.
14:28So, I think if that can be done, that will be really a big win-win for both sides.
14:35So, if I ask you about what could be a biggest success as India is concerned from this summit, what
14:43do you expect?
14:43A resounding statement against the prevailing global turbulence and global uncertainty
14:50and against the fragmentation of the world economy and against arbitrary actions by anybody,
15:01you know, because I think, you know, and reiterating, therefore, that every country in the world
15:10is a sovereign country with equal rights and should be treated in a similar manner by whoever it is.
15:18And BRICS will stand up behind those countries, you know, who need such sovereign protection
15:27and global enmity for that.
15:32I think that will be the biggest success.
15:34A much better contributing to a more stable, rule-based, less turbulent, peaceful global world order.
15:44Global order.
15:44Thank you so much, sir.
15:46Thank you so much for taking your time for ITV Bharat.
15:49Thanks, sir.
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