00:01The political earthquake in Saxony-Anhalt
00:04has sent shockwaves far beyond this eastern German state.
00:08The historic victory for the far-right AFD
00:11doesn't just redraw the political map in that state,
00:14it also puts enormous pressure on Germany's mainstream parties,
00:18challenge the political firewall against cooperation with the far-right
00:22and raises new questions about the country's democratic resilience.
00:27For more on this, I'm joined now by Nikola Spohn,
00:30political scientist at Otto von Gehriger University in Magdeburg in Saxony-Anhalt.
00:37So, how big a political earthquake is this result for Saxony-Anhalt
00:42and for Germany as a whole?
00:44Yeah, first of all, it really is a historic victory for the AFD
00:48and it is an earthquake for the rest of the parties
00:51and it should be noted that the AFD is a clear winner of this election.
00:54So, there's, to be honest, no real option for a government without the AFD.
00:58The only alternative would be a coalition in Saxony-Anhalt of the CDU and SPD
01:04supported by the left parties and the BSW.
01:07And this scenario is almost impossible since,
01:09first, they hold completely different positions,
01:12and second, the BSW has clearly stated that it would not support the CDU prime minister.
01:19So, at this point, we have to accept that the AFD received the mandate to form a government
01:24here in Saxony-Anhalt.
01:25So, this vote, was this a vote for the AFD or against the political establishment?
01:33Yeah, I often heard those questions in the last days,
01:36especially asked for media outlets outside of Germany,
01:39and it usually implies two things.
01:41Are these protest votes or genuine support?
01:44And second, if it is genuine support,
01:46are the people in Saxony-Anhalt more right-winged or solitarian
01:49than in other states of Germany.
01:52And, first of all, I think it is genuine support,
01:56but still the people are not more right-winged than in other parts of Germany.
02:00What I mean is that it is not genuine support for the AFD's agenda,
02:06but rather for their image of doing everything different
02:09or how they post this on their election slogans,
02:13everything is possible.
02:14The state has experienced the largest population decline of any German state
02:19over the past 35 years.
02:21Since 1990, we lost 25% of our population.
02:25And you see that especially in rural areas.
02:29For example, cities like Wolf in the former center of the chemical industry
02:32had 45,000 people in 1990, and today it's 15,000.
02:36Mostly young people left the city and within the schools,
02:39the sport clubs, and other parts of the civil life.
02:42And the young people also fear this demographic change.
02:48In economically disadvantaged areas, there's a teacher shortage.
02:52And after they graduate, they only have few job opportunities
02:55or poor career chances.
02:56What I'm trying to say is that 40% of the voters of the AFD
03:00do not vote for the AFD because of its far-right topics,
03:05but rather despite the fact that this is a far-right party.
03:08People in Eastern Germany are not more right-winged.
03:10They are simply more frustrated.
03:12So would you say that this is rather an exceptional case,
03:16or are we looking at a trend that could spread across Germany?
03:21Well, I think it's a trend you see in whole Eastern Germany.
03:24For example, in two weeks, there will be the election in Mecklenburg,
03:28Brest and Pomerania.
03:29There's also a strong AFD.
03:30This is also an Eastern German federal state.
03:34And in my opinion, it is very possible that the AFD will also be the winner
03:42of the election in Mecklenburg, Brest and Pomerania.
03:45But still, that doesn't mean that the AFD is so strong on the national level.
03:52Ironically, the biggest voter gain on the national level,
03:56it doesn't come from the election results here in Saxony-Arnhalt.
04:02It comes from the chancellor.
04:04So the chancellor of Friedrich Merz has an approval rating of just above 9%,
04:09which is really, really low.
04:12And yesterday, I heard Torsten Frey, who is the leader of the CDU in the Bundestag,
04:21and he said, even though we had this horrible election for the CDU here in Saxony-Arnhalt,
04:27there won't be any consequences on the national level of the government.
04:31And this is what frustrates people.
04:33And this could give the AFD more votes if the CDU on the national level
04:38still turns a blind eye to these warnings, like the elections here in Saxony-Arnhalt.
04:44The political dilemma of the political center is to keep up the firewall
04:49and risk political paralysis or weaken the firewall and legitimize the AFD.
04:57So what's going to happen?
04:59The main question is how we can form a government here in Saxony-Arnhalt.
05:03As I mentioned earlier, there is no majority without the AFD at the moment.
05:10And it's pretty much possible that the AFD minister-president could be elected with votes
05:17of the CDU members.
05:19On the one side, there are CDU members who sympathize with the program of the AFD.
05:25On the other side, the CDU here in Saxony-Arnhalt knows about this problem
05:30and they only got 15 seats this election.
05:34Still, it is a secret election.
05:36And in my opinion, it's possible that single members of the CDU
05:40will vote for a minister-president of the AFD
05:44and would also support single policies of the AFD or a possible AFD government.
05:50But I don't think that there will be an open coalition between the CDU and the AFD.
05:57So this kind of firewall will still hold, in my opinion.
06:01And what kind of pressure do you see on the Christian Democrats and on Chancellor Merz?
06:07Because he is the one that is kind of at the center of this debate.
06:13Can he survive this politically?
06:16Yeah, I think for Chancellor Merz, this will be a main question.
06:20As I mentioned earlier, his approval rating is just over 9%.
06:24And it's so low that he didn't even show up during the campaign here.
06:28Although the leading candidate is also from the CDU in Saxony-Arnhalt.
06:32The election of Saxony-Arnhalt shows that the CDU has, on the national level,
06:40correct their political costs.
06:41So a lot of people are frustrated from the work of the CDU.
06:44The CDU, they promised different things than they made after the election.
06:50The economy is doing worse than before the last election on the national level.
06:57But to be honest, there are also parts which are not the fault of the CDU.
07:03We have this ongoing crisis with Russia, the war between Russia and Ukraine.
07:09We have the war on Iran.
07:10And these are topics that Chancellor Merz can't do a lot about it.
07:15But still, you feel these economically.
07:17The main part for the CDU is now to establish a positive idea of what the future will bring
07:24for the people, and at the moment, we don't have this positive vision.
07:29And the AFD is the only candidate showing some kind of positive vision, which was everything
07:35is possible.
07:35So everything can also be different.
07:38I want to, you know, point to one very special policy, and that's education policy.
07:46Education policy are decided on a state level in the federal republic.
07:51Now, the AFD has suggested a shift in the school curriculum to reduce the focus on Hitler and
08:01the Holocaust in history lessons.
08:04Now, how dangerous do you think is this?
08:08I mean, this has raised a lot of eyebrows outside of Germany.
08:12Is the AFD about to whitewash German history?
08:17Yeah, I wouldn't go that far.
08:19But still, as you mentioned, the AFD has the possibility to change the curriculum in schools
08:25here in Saxonia, but only in borders.
08:30So they can't change the full curriculum.
08:33There still has to be parts about the Second World War and the time after the war.
08:38But they can shorten this period in school.
08:43But everything they want to do instead has to be scientifically approved.
08:48So you can't teach anything in Germany, which isn't at the state of the art and the eyes
08:53of the science.
08:54But their idea is to shift from the Second World War to times of, in brackets like, better Germany
09:07or a better vision of Germany, which is the German Empire or the time of Otto the Great.
09:13Yes, they can change the view of younger people about German, about German history, about our place
09:22in the world.
09:23And to establish the more like proud vision or to be proud to be a German.
09:29That's the narrative of the AFD.
09:32But the narrative on the national level is as it was before.
09:40Yeah, interesting.
09:41One more.
09:43There are 27 countries in the European Union.
09:46A lot of them have far-right parties for many, many years.
09:50Now, is Germany finally entering that phase, that sort of new normal, where a strong, far-right
10:01political party is part of the political process?
10:05Yeah, I think you already saw that in the last election, where the AFD had a lot of votes.
10:11And they are the leading opposition party in like every parliament on the state level or
10:20on the national level.
10:22So, yeah, Germany is entering and was already before entering this new era of far-right parties
10:32in the parliament and maybe entering also the countries of far-right parties in government.
10:40Do you think that with the strong showing of the AFD in Germany, this will have an impact
10:48on, well, first of all, the German government and then by extension on the politics of Brussels?
10:56So, first of all, yes, I see a shift to more conservative topics in the last years.
11:01And conservative ideas and narratives are stronger in the society and in the German government
11:08too.
11:09But still, I wouldn't overestimate the impact of like federal elections to Sony Arnold or
11:16in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania on the national level or even on the EU level.
11:21On the national level, the AFD isn't as strong as it is in the Eastern German country, states.
11:29And there's, we have to acknowledge that the majority of the people are still against the
11:36ideas of the AFD.
11:38So there won't be, in my opinion, a shift in Germany towards the AFD and the narratives of
11:46the AFD on the national government.
11:48All right, Nicholas Spoon, political scientist at the Otto von Gehrigke University in Magdeburg,
11:53Saxony Arnold.
11:54Thank you so much for your time today.
11:56Thank you.
11:58Thank you.
11:58Thank you.
11:59Thank you.
11:59Thank you.
11:59Thank you.
11:59Thank you.
