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NewsTranscript
00:00I really have had an observation about opposition briefings and I am responding by
00:03– I just think it says something about how interested you are in this,
00:10that your leader took four days to even asking for a briefing on this.
00:14I think the facts demonstrate China did give notice, it was not in accordance with best practice
00:20and it was not given directly to Australia or in New Zealand.
00:23and the fact that it did not do so to New Zealand, Australia or in advance was something I raised
00:31with Foreign Minister Wangi. So it is correct that Tanya gave notice. We have issues
00:38with the time frame around that and the channel and we have expressed that to them.
00:44Chair, Minister, I haven't yet got your opening statement and I would like to ask some questions
00:49about it. Do you know if that's been circulated yet to the committee?
00:54No, I don't know that.
00:55It hasn't been?
00:56No.
00:57Is it going to be?
00:58Sure. I think I made some changes as I spoke.
01:04Oh, right. Okay. I look forward to being able to ask some detailed questions about some of
01:08the things you said in your opening statement, but just at a high level, I haven't attended
01:13every single Senate estimate since you were Foreign Minister, but I've attended a fair
01:18for you. I don't recall an opening statement as partisan as that one, nor do I recall any
01:24of your predecessors in this forum making such a partisan opening statement. Is there a reason
01:29why you felt the need to make such a strong statement this morning?
01:33Well, I don't accept the premise of your question.
01:36Well, have you ever opened Senate estimates by making multiple references to the Leader
01:42of the Opposition by name before?
01:43Well, I think when—well, first, I don't accept the premise of your opening question.
01:51I think it is a reasonable thing to respond to some of the bellicose rhetoric, which I
01:59don't think is in Australia's interest.
02:03Can you recall a time where your predecessor would have used this forum for such a partisan
02:07statement?
02:08I've seen a lot of partisanship in this forum, Senator, including yesterday from you.
02:14Okay. You don't think it was reasonable to ask questions about what we knew and when
02:18we knew it about the People's Liberation Army Navy Task Force?
02:22I think it is reasonable to ask those questions. I think gunboat diplomacy is a return to the drums
02:28of war rhetoric. And I don't think it is reasonable for the Leader of the Opposition
02:34to tell people in Menzies—and Benelong, he's pro-China—I don't think it's reasonable
02:39for Mr. Woollohan to tell people how you've changed your position and then engage in that
02:44sort of rhetoric in Canberra. And I think that should be pointed to. You can explain it.
02:50It comes across—I mean, I know the media was bad this morning for the Government. I know a range
02:54of commentators are very critical, but it comes across as very defensive. And I know in
02:58elections around the corner. But I just can't recall a foreign minister feeling the
03:01need to weigh in so strongly before.
03:05Senator, they're your words.
03:07Okay. I will have specific questions about the statement when it is circulated. But turning
03:14to the People's Liberation Army Navy Task Force, do you have an update on its whereabouts
03:19today?
03:19That's a matter for Defence.
03:21We asked Defence yesterday and they said that they were briefing DFAT so that DFAT could brief
03:27few so that you were on top of it. Have you received an update from the Department?
03:37The—the—those are operational matters for Defence. And if you want an update from Defence,
03:42I would refer you to the Deputy Prime Minister's office.
03:46I don't have the same opportunities to ask questions of him, as you know.
03:49Senator, I don't know whether the opposition—I know that Mr Dutton was quite late to ask
03:56a briefing—ask for a briefing on this. I don't know if you've sought a further briefing.
04:00I'm sure that if you seek a further briefing, we will provide one.
04:04It's funny you should say that. We did ask for briefings and we had some difficulty scheduling
04:07them. I'm not sure if it was the availability of officials or some other reason. And just on that—
04:14If I could just also say, my recollection is—and I'll check with the Defence portfolio—that
04:20there are regular statements updating in relation to this. And Ms Lawson might be able to assist
04:27on Ms Dutton.
04:28Ms Dutton. Thank you, Senator.
04:29Elia Lawson, Deputy Secretary, Geostrategic and Planning Group. The Department of Defence is
04:35making regular updates on their website.
04:37Yes. Will there be an update today?
04:39Did you not check this morning, if you were very keen? I think it went live at 8.30.
04:46Okay. Well, then you should be able to answer the question.
04:48No, it's a defence statement, sir.
04:50Right. So it's not in your state of knowledge.
04:51It's a defence statement.
04:52Yeah. And we've been told by defence you've been regularly briefed.
04:55Well, I'd refer you—
04:55If you're not aware, you can say so.
04:57No. I refer you to the statement, which is very transparent and professional.
05:06Is it in the state of knowledge of any officials here today?
05:09Is what in their state of knowledge of any officials?
05:13The whereabouts, the current whereabouts of the People's of Russian Army Navy Task Force.
05:17Senator, I would refer you to the update on the website of the Department of Defence.
05:21Thank you. So is that a no? That's not in the state of knowledge of any officials?
05:26Senator Sarah Dutton, First Assistant Secretary, Defence and National Security Policy Division.
05:31The Department of Defence issued a statement at 8.30am, as the Minister referenced.
05:35It indicated that the task group was 548 kilometres west of Hobart.
05:40Thank you. I'm grateful for that update.
05:45Foreign Minister, when were you first informed about the live firing exercise conducted by the PLAN?
05:57As you will or you may recall, I was in South Africa at the time.
06:01Yes.
06:01So the initial advice to government would have occurred very early morning, I think 4am or sometime like that, or
06:15maybe earlier South African time.
06:18So I was advised after I got up, and I was briefed, and I also had a conversation with the
06:31Prime Minister in which we agreed that I would raise the issue directly with Foreign Minister Wang Yi, with whom
06:38I had a bilateral later that day.
06:41Okay. So you were advised by your own department, presumably?
06:45That's right. Possibly through the office, as well as the department.
06:51Does anyone from the department have the Australian time that the foreign minister would have been notified?
07:03Senator, the department was advised by the Department of Defence at around half past 12 Australia time on the Friday.
07:13We also understand the foreign minister's office received a communication a bit earlier than that from her office.
07:19That was at around 2.51am Johannesburg time.
07:23And just because I can't do the maths in my head while I'm here, what was it at Australian time
07:27that the foreign minister's office was notified?
07:29We understand it was around 11.50am.
07:31So it was also after the infrastructure minister was notified at 11.20am.
07:37It's not the infrastructure minister. Transport is the key portfolio there.
07:42Well, yes, she's also the transport minister.
07:44No, no, but that—I'm just making sure. She's not— Minister King is not notified because she's the infrastructure minister.
07:53She's notified because she is responsibility for air services.
07:57I'm pretty sure the department has called the Department of Infrastructure, but anyway.
08:01So how is it that the infrastructure and minister for transport is informed half an hour before the foreign minister's
08:08office is
08:08about a live firing exercised by the people of Liberation Army and Navy in the Tasman Sea?
08:14Well, Senator, you went through this in detail yesterday, including the way in which the two channels of notification occurred.
08:26So I don't think I've got anything to add to the evidence from yesterday.
08:29Well, except that, as you pointed out, those are questions to the Department of Defence.
08:32These are the questions to you and when you were informed or when your office was informed.
08:37Now, I understand if you're in a different time zone, you might not have been able to be woken up
08:41in the middle of the night.
08:42I'm not suggesting that, but your office should have been notified promptly.
08:45Why was it after the minister for infrastructure and transport?
08:50Well, I'd refer you to the evidence yesterday.
08:52Right.
08:53Do you think it's a problem that domestic non-security ministers are finding out about
08:58serious security incidents in the region before senior national security ministers in their offices?
09:02I'd refer you to the evidence yesterday.
09:04That's not an answer.
09:05It is, actually.
09:06It may not be the answer you like, Senator Paterson, but it is the answer I'm giving.
09:11The important point, though, is I was able to put our views directly to a senior member of the Chinese
09:21government within 24 hours.
09:25I look forward to canvassing that with you in a moment, but I think the notification issue is an important
09:30one.
09:32Has there been any reflection in government about the delayed notification to senior national security ministers such as yourselves about
09:40a senior national security incident, a serious national security incident?
09:48I'm not sure what your question is seeking to elicit.
09:51I'll rephrase it then.
09:53Don't you think it is a problem that it took so long to inform ministers about a serious incident and
10:02that ministers who do not have national security responsibilities found out about a national security incident prior to ministers such
10:09as yourself and the defence minister?
10:12Well, I think the evidence yesterday traversed in detail the two mechanisms or the two channels by which notification was
10:19provided.
10:21Yes, and that's not what the question was. The question is whether you think it's a problem or not.
10:29Well, I think the evidence yesterday, you asked precisely those questions and the CDF responded to you.
10:35Yes, and now I'm asking you for your view.
10:37Well, and, you know, I take advice, unlike those who wish to be highly critical of the Australian Defence Force
10:43in pursuit of this political objective, I take advice from national security agencies, including Defence.
10:53Yes, well, that's interesting, but I'm not asking for their advice. I'm asking for your view. You're the foreign minister.
11:00You don't have a view on this?
11:02I have many views, Senator Paterson. Most of them you don't agree with.
11:05Please share them. This is your opportunity.
11:08Yeah, I think you are engaging in politicisation of this event for your own political purposes, and I think people
11:16can see that.
11:18I think people can see, and I think fair observers have pointed out, and I know friends of the coalition,
11:23that this has been shambolic handling of this issue over the last couple of days, utterly shambolic.
11:28Cue.
11:29And worthy of legitimate scrutiny in a forum like Senate estimates.
11:34Do you have a question?
11:35I have many. I still don't have the benefit of your statement, so I'm going to have to rely on
11:40the rough notes that I took.
11:43So forgive me if they're not completely accurate, and please correct me if they're not.
11:46In talking about those two pathways of notification via a commercial airliner and the defence forces, I think you said
11:57it was some time later that notification came through from defence channels.
12:04Is that accurate?
12:08I think that was the evidence yesterday.
12:10Yes, but I'm asking about what you said in your statement before I ask a question about it. I don't
12:14want to be accused of misquoting you.
12:24Yes.
12:25Okay. The Prime Minister said yesterday at his press conference that it was around the same time that notification came
12:33through from the Virgin Australia pilot and the defence force, but you've described it as some time later.
12:39What's the reason for the discrepancy between the Prime Minister's description and yours?
12:43I don't accept there's a discrepancy.
12:45Do you think that around the same time and some time later are the same?
12:50Senator, the timeframe is clear from the evidence yesterday. We've been transparent about that.
12:58I think you've been transparent today as defence was yesterday, but I don't think that's a fair description of what
13:04the Prime Minister has said because he said yesterday at his press conference that it was around the same time
13:10that notification came through the two channels.
13:12That's not true, and that's probably why you said on Hansard, quote, some time later. Why is there a discrepancy
13:20between the two of you?
13:21Well, I don't accept that is the case, Senator.
13:25You don't think—
13:26And I just would also make the point, if you were so interested in this issue, why did it take
13:32the Leader of the Opposition some four days after the incident before he saw the briefing?
13:37Why was the briefing proactively offered to the media on Friday but not the Opposition?
13:44I'm not sure that's the case.
13:45It is the case.
13:46Well, hang on.
13:48You want transparency.
13:50The Deputy Prime Minister has been very transparent about this.
13:55He provided—there was a public statement issued—was that last week?
14:01I'm sorry, it wasn't my statement, but certainly before this occurred about the task group and an interview and defence
14:16statements as required.
14:18I don't know how regularly.
14:19So, are you complaining about transparency?
14:22No.
14:22Well, you made an observation about opposition briefings and I'm responding by observing—
14:27Well, I just think it says something about—
14:29Sorry, Minister.
14:29—about how interested you are in this.
14:31I hadn't finished, Minister.
14:32How interested you are in this.
14:34That you took—your Leader took four days to even ask for a briefing on this.
14:38To even ask.
14:39Well—
14:39And—
14:40Now, if this is such a big issue for you, surely you would have been pretty quick to request a
14:46briefing from the Government.
14:47But you weren't.
14:49Minister, I'll do my best today not to interrupt you and I ask that you do the same.
14:53Okay.
14:53You're not going to be Senator McGrath.
14:56Well, we could all play that game.
14:58I won't run through a list of your colleagues and reflect on their conduct.
15:01No games today, please.
15:02No games today.
15:03We just had a very, you know—
15:04All right, come on.
15:06Interrupting Prime Minister and Cameron.
15:07Let's get back to questions and answers.
15:08So, I mean, we could have a fight about briefings all day.
15:11It's probably not too productive.
15:12So, you don't accept that your description of the two pathways of reporting as being
15:18some time later and the Prime Minister's description of being around the same time are in any way distinct?
15:24I mean, this is really—I mean, you're talking about a difference from memory of less than an hour.
15:35From memory, is that what the defence evidence said, from memory?
15:38It was 50 minutes?
15:39I think it was 63 minutes.
15:41I think it was 50.
15:42Between the Virgin notification and the New Zealand Defence Force notification.
15:46No, no, no.
15:47The—but the relevant—the relevant point is their services.
15:50I think it was about 50 minutes.
15:51So, you're talking less than an hour.
15:53Now, if you want to focus your attention on words used to describe less than an hour, that's a matter
15:58for you.
16:00Okay.
16:03You also said—and I believe this is accurate, but again, I don't have your transcript, so you correct me if
16:09I'm wrong—we were not provided advance notice about the exercise.
16:14Is that right?
16:19Um, Senator Ellie Lawson, um, Deputy Secretary, Strategic Planning Coordination Group, uh, the Department of Defence did respond to that,
16:29uh, question yesterday.
16:30Uh, uh, my question is not about the notice.
16:33My question is about the Foreign Minister's opening statement.
16:36Um, I think it might have been now circulated, so I'll try and read it while I'm asking questions, but
16:41I might need to come back to it.
16:42But I think, Foreign Minister, you said in your, uh, opening statement that, quote, we were not provided advance notice.
16:48Is that what you said in your opening statement?
16:50Uh, and what I have indicated publicly, and I think the—was consistent with Defence yesterday, is that the Australian Defence
16:57Force, in similar circumstances, and we do operate in similar circumstances, uh, in general, would provide 12 to 24 hours
17:06advance notice?
17:07Yes.
17:07I'm just at the moment trying to seek the confirmation of what you said in your opening statement, and I
17:12now have it in front of me.
17:13And it says, and I quote, seeking an explanation for why we were not provided advance notice.
17:20Why, uh, are you observing that we were not given advance notice when the Prime Minister has repeatedly said that
17:28notice was given?
17:29Uh, well, notice was given that I was referencing the practice, uh, of the Australian Defence Force, which formed part
17:38of my, uh, representations to the Foreign Minister.
17:45Yes, but, uh, it's not notice if it comes after the event has commenced, is it?
17:50Uh, we all know what you're trying to do.
17:53Uh, I have—I have—I put on behalf of the country, uh, to the Chinese Foreign Minister, uh, that in usual—we
18:02would expect—
18:09I'm sorry, 24 to 48, uh, hours advance notice.
18:13That is usually what Australians would—would engage in.
18:16So I'll correct my evidence from before.
18:1924 to 48, uh, and that's what I'm referencing in the opening statement.
18:23What I'm trying to do is ask you—
18:25No, what you're trying to do is to create more politics around this, Senator.
18:28Let's be clear.
18:30Chair, I'm trying to be respectful to the Foreign Minister by not interrupting her during her answers.
18:34I'd ask that you, uh, enforce the same when asking questions.
18:38Uh, Foreign Minister, what I'm trying to do, uh, is to get you to answer questions about your own opening
18:44statements,
18:44which you delivered half an hour ago, and you seem reluctant to do that.
18:49You have said we were not provided advance notice.
18:51The Prime Minister has said in a range of media interviews and press conferences, including on Q&A on Monday
18:58night,
18:59that we were given notice of the, uh, upcoming exercises.
19:03Why is there a discrepancy between what you have said about this and what the Prime Minister has said about
19:08this?
19:11Um, Senator, I know you are desperate to try and find a new angle.
19:17Uh, I'm consistent.
19:19The advance notice to which I'm—which I'm referencing there is the advance notice that, uh, I spoke to Foreign Minister
19:28Wang Yi about, uh, and that the Australian Defence Force would generally provide in similar circumstances.
19:36I—I agree, uh, Foreign Minister.
19:38You have been consistent in your own words, but your own words are not consistent with what the Prime Minister
19:44has said.
19:44Well, Senator, that—that—that—they're your—they're your words.
19:46Chair, again, I'm—I'm—I'm sorry, I thought you'd finished.
19:48I thought you'd finished.
19:49No, I haven't finished.
19:49That's fine.
19:49I was pausing for breath.
19:51I—I agree.
19:52You have been consistent in your own language, but your language has not been consistent with what the Prime Minister
19:57said, and it is in the national interest to understand why there is a discrepancy on a serious matter of
20:03national security and public statements made by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister.
20:08So can you account for the difference between the Prime Minister's statements on many occasions saying that notice was given
20:15and your statement that we were not provided advance notice?
20:21Well, Senator, both—both statements are correct.
20:25So we were provided advance notice?
20:28Senator, uh, both statements are correct.
20:33They're in contradiction with each other.
20:34Well, no, Senator, I—I've explained to you what I meant.
20:36You don't want to listen to it.
20:39That's the choice you want to make.
20:41I've explained to you what I was referencing by advance notice, which is what I spoke to the Foreign Minister
20:47of China about.
20:48I'm actually listening very carefully to your answers.
20:53It—it's the fact that they're unresponsive to the questions that I'm asking, which is why I need to keep repeating
20:58them and seeking clarity.
21:00It is not the same thing to say we received notice and there was no advance notice provided, which is
21:08what you have said compared to what the Prime Minister has said.
21:11Is it because the Prime Minister is not across the detail?
21:16Oh, no, we've come to the point of the questioning, haven't we?
21:19To try and land the political grab in estimates.
21:22You're not actually interested, uh, in the detail.
21:25If you were interested in—in how we are working to keep Australians safe, you would have asked for a briefing
21:30more than—less than four days after the incident happened.
21:34All right, but you're only interested, uh, in trying to invest in a political attack.
21:39And everyone can see that, Senator Paterson.
21:42Everyone can see that.
21:44Um, Prime Minister, I—I won't be taking lectures from you on politicization, given that you made an opening statement that
21:50was the most partisan in memory, uh, in Senate estimates, and repeatedly attacked the Leader of the Opposition by name
21:57multiple times.
21:58Uh, and by my search, you—you mentioned him three times in your opening statement, along with others.
22:03It is a—in the public interest to understand why the Prime Minister has inaccurately, repeatedly described the behaviour of a
22:12People's Liberation Army Navy Task Group in our region.
22:19Senator, I think the facts demonstrate China did give notice.
22:23It was not in accordance with best practice, and it wasn't given directly to Australia or New Zealand.
22:30And, uh, the fact that it did not do so to New Zealand, Australia, or in advance, was something I
22:36raised with Foreign Minister Wangui.
22:39So, it is correct that China gave notice.
22:42Uh, we have issues, uh, with the timeframe around that and the channel.
22:48And we have expressed that to them.
22:51How did they give notice if we only learned the exercises after they had commenced?
23:04Senator, I believe Defence covered this.
23:07Um, in their committee hearing yesterday, uh, my understanding is that there was notice given, but it was not through,
23:14uh, the best practice channels that are normally used.
23:17It was not a formal notice to mariners, um, and so it was not, um, given directly to Australia or
23:25New Zealand.
23:27I think the plain language understanding of giving notice is telling someone about something before it happens, not after it
23:34started.
23:35How is it giving notice if we only find out about it after it started?
23:41And, Senator, that is why we have raised this directly with the Chinese government.
23:45Because, in our view, this was not best practice.
23:48And so it caused disruption.
23:51Um, and, and so the, our expectation is that, um, these kinds of exercises are formally notified in accordance with
23:59international best practice.
24:02Last minute, Senator Patterson.
24:03Thank you.
24:04Just a final question on, on this for now.
24:06Foreign Minister.
24:06Will the Prime Minister apologize today for misleading the Australian people about this serious matter of national security?
24:12Ah.
24:13Well, that is not what has occurred.
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24:24.
24:26.
24:26.