- 10 hours ago
Philosopher Stefan Molyneux talks with a caller who learned to repress anger and sadness to protect his parents during their divorce when he was eight.
0:00:00 Divorce and Emotions Recap
0:03:29 The Divorce Question
0:07:26 Reading Their Reactions
0:09:25 Why Parents Divorce
0:15:25 Mom’s Role in the Split
0:18:47 Marriage and Compatibility
0:20:28 Kids Pay the Price
0:24:49 Grandparents and Guilt
0:26:58 Reciprocity in Marriage
0:31:23 Love Means Joining In
0:35:44 Feeling Rejected by Parents
0:41:34 The Neglected Dog Analogy
0:44:54 Power Through Denial
0:52:08 No Good Reason to Divorce
0:56:46 Confronting the Parents
1:02:10 A Child’s Challenge
1:07:49 Protecting the Parents
1:12:12 What to Ask Now
1:15:24 Finding the Anger
1:18:31 Parents Fear Your Feelings
1:22:16 Speaking Honestly at Home
1:24:40 Let Emotions Speak
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0:00:00 Divorce and Emotions Recap
0:03:29 The Divorce Question
0:07:26 Reading Their Reactions
0:09:25 Why Parents Divorce
0:15:25 Mom’s Role in the Split
0:18:47 Marriage and Compatibility
0:20:28 Kids Pay the Price
0:24:49 Grandparents and Guilt
0:26:58 Reciprocity in Marriage
0:31:23 Love Means Joining In
0:35:44 Feeling Rejected by Parents
0:41:34 The Neglected Dog Analogy
0:44:54 Power Through Denial
0:52:08 No Good Reason to Divorce
0:56:46 Confronting the Parents
1:02:10 A Child’s Challenge
1:07:49 Protecting the Parents
1:12:12 What to Ask Now
1:15:24 Finding the Anger
1:18:31 Parents Fear Your Feelings
1:22:16 Speaking Honestly at Home
1:24:40 Let Emotions Speak
JOIN ME IN NASHVILLE SEPTEMBER 12! https://wordwardebate.com/
Use code STEFAN for 10% off!
GET FREEDOMAIN MERCH! https://shop.freedomain.com/
SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux
Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1
GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK!
https://peacefulparenting.com/
Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!
Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!
You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
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Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00Sorry, just for the listeners, we lost the first few minutes of the recording, so I just
00:00:05wanted to go over.
00:00:05This is a caller who called in a couple of weeks ago, and he wants to know how to more
00:00:10productively deal with his avoidance of anger and his general suppression of emotions as
00:00:16a whole.
00:00:16So I was just talking about how there's a difference between repression and suppression.
00:00:21Suppression is when you say, I'm not going to feel this right now.
00:00:23Maybe you're in a business meeting and you feel sad about something, you kind of swallow
00:00:26it down, but then later you experience the emotion.
00:00:28That's suppression.
00:00:30Repression is when you say, oh, you make it as a constant habit.
00:00:33I'm not going to feel things at all.
00:00:35So sorry to just take us in a sprint through the first few minutes of the conversation,
00:00:39but the recorder just failed and we lost it.
00:00:42So yeah, so we're going to talk again about how to more productively deal with anger or
00:00:48other emotions.
00:00:50Have I caught us up?
00:00:51Did I miss anything huge?
00:00:52Oh, and your parents separated when you were eight and they did say to you, oh, you can talk
00:00:57about it with us if you want.
00:00:58And I was sort of rolling my eyes at the idea that an eight-year-old kid can lead a
00:01:03discussion
00:01:04on the emotional effects of a collapsing marriage and a divorce, which an eight-year-old
00:01:08kid can in no way, shape or form do.
00:01:10So it's like an eight-year-old kid saying to his father, oh yeah, no, I can come and
00:01:14help you move all that heavy machinery.
00:01:16It's like, no, you can't.
00:01:17You can't really do that at all.
00:01:19So did I give us an accurate, sorry for the massive sprint through the recap, but it was
00:01:24something like that, right?
00:01:26Yeah, yeah, that's a good summary, I think.
00:01:30Yeah, so yeah, with, it's, of course, yeah, I couldn't really lead their discussion.
00:01:38And I think I, I don't think I would be able to necessarily explain it at the time, but
00:01:43I think I kind of knew intuitively that it was bullshit.
00:01:47Um, and I think they might've asked, here are their things, do you want to talk about
00:01:53it or something, but they really need to, yeah, needed to just be more proactive with
00:02:00that.
00:02:00And we did talk a little bit last time, um, not about that specifically, but about, um,
00:02:08in terms of, of, uh, dating advice with my dad, not giving me any, um, and then I asked
00:02:16him about it and he, he sort of said his, like he, they say it like that sort of similar
00:02:25thing, like, oh, well, you know, um, I've always been, you know, here and available to talk
00:02:29about anything, but I don't think it's my role to, you know, um, I don't know how you'd
00:02:36put it, but I don't think it's sort of my role to, to proactively give advice.
00:02:42I mean, he wouldn't have put it like that, but it's not my role to impose or, um, yeah,
00:02:50I guess he, he would, I think he probably thought it would be kind of pushy if he would have
00:02:55given
00:02:56advice on, on that dating stuff.
00:03:00Um, and all that, yeah, I don't know.
00:03:02He'd probably have phrased it in a way that was slightly, sounded slightly better.
00:03:08Okay, sorry, you, uh, you have a tough time communicating about this stuff, right?
00:03:11It's a little hard to, to follow the thoughts and you repeat a lot.
00:03:14So that, no, it's fine.
00:03:15It's fine.
00:03:16I just sort of wanted to point it out.
00:03:17That's has to do with dissociation where you're just kind of picking words like an, like a large
00:03:21language model, just sort of picking out words that come next, uh, rather than really focusing
00:03:26on communicating, which is fine.
00:03:29So if your parents, well, when they got divorced, so your parents get divorced and they're going
00:03:37through their own anger, sorrows and all that kind of stuff.
00:03:40Now, if you were to sit down with either of your parents or both of them and, you know,
00:03:51wail and cry and express your absolute shock, sadness, misery, and so on, how would that
00:03:58have gone?
00:04:00Well, I mean, I know when my parents told me, I remember when they told me that they were
00:04:07getting divorced and I, yeah, I did cry at the time.
00:04:12Um, and I guess it didn't, yeah, it didn't really, I don't know what, if there was a much
00:04:21better way to explain it, but, um, but yeah, they didn't explain, well, my dad was the one
00:04:29who wanted the divorce and, um, you know, certainly didn't, wasn't, um, completely honest
00:04:35about why it happened, um, and just, he said something like, um, uh, I don't love your mom
00:04:45anymore, which is really not, well, obviously not the full story, um, and, uh, okay, how
00:04:55do you, how do you feel, my God, this is brutal conversation, how do you feel that when we're
00:04:59talking about this stuff, because this way of talking is really hard to follow, like,
00:05:06so how, how are you feeling when we're talking about this stuff?
00:05:09Um, yeah, feeling quite, quite anxious, um, sadness is, um, yeah, coming through as well.
00:05:19And do you remember what my question was that you were trying to answer?
00:05:23What would it be like for, um, if I was to go to my parents, uh, you know, crying?
00:05:31Yeah, every time you were sad, every time you were sad about the divorce, to sit down and
00:05:35talk for an hour or two with your parents and express all the range of your emotions,
00:05:40how would that have gone?
00:05:42How would that have gone?
00:05:43Um, I just, yeah, I don't think I would have got much out of it.
00:05:48Like, I think they would have just, they would have sort of talked to me about it.
00:05:55And I don't think I would come away with, you know, extra information or, or anything that.
00:06:03Okay.
00:06:03How do you think they would have reacted emotionally to your tears and upset and your anger and disappointment
00:06:11and all of that?
00:06:13Like the full raw force of your feelings.
00:06:16Yeah.
00:06:17Um, I guess, uh, you know, I, I don't know really how they would react.
00:06:23Like, yeah, I'm not sure what that would do.
00:06:27What's your guess?
00:06:29I think they wouldn't, yeah, you know, if I was crying to them, they would be maybe, I
00:06:38don't know if this is the right word, but yeah, sort of, um, take pity on me or something
00:06:45like that and maybe, yeah, I don't think they would be, they might, I guess if, if I, if I
00:06:55was
00:06:55sort of asking too many probing questions, I think they could get a bit avoidant and,
00:07:01uh, so maybe there could be some, I don't know what the emotion would be, but, um, yeah, I certainly
00:07:11know there are times when they don't want to talk about something and I usually would just not pursue that.
00:07:19Um, but yeah, I don't know, strong emotions of how they would react.
00:07:25Um, I'm struggling with this one.
00:07:27So how do you know when they don't want to talk about something?
00:07:30I think, yeah, the sort of, um, sort of answers that I'd give, maybe they'd be a bit terse.
00:07:37Um, they would, I could probably see them, maybe their anxiety would rise a little bit and I could kind
00:07:45of see that, that, uh, they're not comfortable and they kind of just want to give some sort of answer
00:07:55to the question.
00:07:55And then, and then move on.
00:07:57Um, yeah, I think that would be it.
00:08:01I think that's how they'd try and deal with it.
00:08:03Sort of short, sharp answers.
00:08:06Um, yeah, that makes sense.
00:08:10And sorry, remind me, I know your father said he fell out of love with your mom, which doesn't really
00:08:14mean anything.
00:08:16So do you know the immediate cause for the divorce?
00:08:19Sorry if you mentioned it or if you mentioned it the last time we talked, but I just want to
00:08:22have it fresh in my mind.
00:08:24Um, yeah, um, I think we kind of talked about it last time, but I, as far as I know,
00:08:30there was no immediate cause of the divorce.
00:08:33Um, when I talked to my dad about this years later, um, as an adult, he, he said, um, he,
00:08:43well, I think he had, had been feeling, um, who had been having these feelings for years.
00:08:52And, uh, basically, yeah, didn't think that he was really compatible with my mom.
00:08:59Okay, you're not, you're not giving me any answers.
00:09:01Do you, do you, just tell me you don't know if you don't know.
00:09:03Not really compatible is just another way of saying I fell out of love.
00:09:06There was no divorce.
00:09:07There was no violence, no drug use, no immediate financial catastrophes.
00:09:12It's like, you don't know the proximate cause, is that right?
00:09:15Um, yeah, I don't know the proximate cause.
00:09:17Okay, so they never really told you why they got divorced.
00:09:20But, you know, or at least you believe that it wasn't anything that was a dire emergency, right?
00:09:25Yeah.
00:09:25Okay.
00:09:25Yeah.
00:09:26All right.
00:09:26So, in the absence of some massive dire emergency, the only reason that people get divorced is because they're selfish.
00:09:35Yeah.
00:09:36Because if you can be together for long enough to have an eight-year-old kid, which means you've been
00:09:42together probably 10, 12 or more years, then you're compatible enough to see it through.
00:09:49Now, the only way that people, and this is a generality, we can always think of exceptions, but this is
00:09:55a generality.
00:09:56So, the only way that people can get divorced is if they ignore the catastrophic effects on their children.
00:10:06It's the only way it can be done.
00:10:08I mean, it's sort of like the only way you can use some horrible explosive device to detonate in a
00:10:15building is if you ignore the people living in it, right?
00:10:17Or you view them as an enemy or something like that, right?
00:10:20So, the only way that you can get a divorce and go through with it, if you have kids, is
00:10:31if you ignore how much it makes the kids suffer.
00:10:35Because if you focus on how much it makes the kids suffer, well, you can't really get a divorce because
00:10:41it's causing too much suffering.
00:10:44So, if you say, well, I'm going to be plus five happier.
00:10:48I'm sorry.
00:10:48How many kids were there?
00:10:50Three.
00:10:50Three.
00:10:51So, if you say, I'm going to be plus five happier or even plus ten happier if I get a
00:10:57divorce.
00:10:58I'm minus five.
00:10:58If I get a divorce, I'm going to go to plus five happiness.
00:11:01Okay.
00:11:01It's ten spread points, right?
00:11:03However, my kids are going to go from plus five happiness to minus five happiness.
00:11:08So, I get plus ten, but my kids are minus 30.
00:11:11The family as a whole is minus 20, and that's not even counting my wife, right?
00:11:16Let's say she's completely neutral.
00:11:17Let's just imagine that.
00:11:18So, the only way you can focus on your plus ten happiness going from a minus five to a plus
00:11:24five is if you forget about your kids going from a plus five to a minus five.
00:11:28It's if you ignore that, because otherwise, you have to take that into account that you can't really get divorced.
00:11:33Does that make sense?
00:11:35Yeah, totally.
00:11:36Okay.
00:11:36So, the only way that you can get divorced is if you ignore, to a large degree, the unhappiness your
00:11:45divorce produces in your children, right?
00:11:48We agree on that as a whole, right?
00:11:51Yeah.
00:11:51Right.
00:11:52So, you get divorced, and then your children are not allowed to communicate in any significant or long-lasting way
00:12:00their unhappiness,
00:12:01because then it makes you feel like a selfish asshole.
00:12:08You know, like, if you're a drunk, and you break open your kid's piggy bank, and you steal their money
00:12:14to go and buy some beer,
00:12:16and then you come home, and your kid is, like, weeping and wailing, like, somebody stole my money.
00:12:20Where's my money?
00:12:21I saved this money for two years, and I was going to buy it, right?
00:12:24I mean, you feel like an asshole, right?
00:12:27Yeah.
00:12:28So, you couldn't feel unhappy, because if you felt unhappy, your parents would experience massive regret,
00:12:37and they would question whether divorce was a good idea.
00:12:40And if it's any consolation, this is true of all the children of divorce.
00:12:44All the children, and I'm not, again, we can think of exceptions.
00:12:47This is, like, 90, 95% of divorces.
00:12:50The children are not allowed to feel unhappy, because then that would change the calculation of the parents.
00:12:55The parents want to get a divorce, so they just say, well, I want to move from minus 5 to
00:13:00plus 5.
00:13:00The fact that my kids move from plus 5 or plus 10 to minus 5 or minus 10 cannot be
00:13:05part of my equation.
00:13:06Because if it is part of my equation, in other words, if I'm a good parent, I'm not going to
00:13:10get divorced.
00:13:12So, you can't feel like...
00:13:14Yes.
00:13:15The only way this ship sails is if all of the emotions are thrown overboard.
00:13:19Sorry, at least all of your emotions, and your siblings, too.
00:13:22Sorry, you were going to say?
00:13:23Oh, yeah, I didn't want to interrupt.
00:13:27But that would be for talking to my dad about it, but talking to my mum, as far as I
00:13:36know, she did not want the divorce to happen.
00:13:41So, why could I not talk to her about it and express the unhappiness to her?
00:13:49Well, because she is still causal in the divorce.
00:13:53So, either your father wanted something in your mother to change that she could change but chose not to.
00:14:02Like, maybe he says, you know, all we do is we come home and we watch TV all night.
00:14:07I'm wasting my life.
00:14:08Let's go do some stuff.
00:14:09And she's like, no, I've got my shows.
00:14:11You know, whatever it is, right?
00:14:12I want to stay home.
00:14:12And this goes on for a long time, and he's just like, I cannot spend the rest of my life
00:14:17sitting on a couch watching shows.
00:14:19Like, I feel like I'm dying or suffocating.
00:14:21And, again, I'm just making up some scenario here, right?
00:14:24And so, and then he eventually divorces her, and then she says, well, I didn't want the divorce.
00:14:28And it's like, yeah, but you weren't listening to your husband and what he wanted.
00:14:31And what we want changes over the course of our life.
00:14:35When I was younger, I wanted to go out more.
00:14:37Now, I'm a little bit more happy to stay home.
00:14:39Good conversation, game of cards.
00:14:40You know, I'm obviously pushing 60, so I'm not out there busting moves on the dance floor.
00:14:45I mean, occasionally, but not too often.
00:14:48So, things change over the course of your life.
00:14:52And so, if your father wanted stuff from your mother or wanted some change in the relationship and she wasn't
00:14:58willing to provide it, then he's going to be tempted to divorce her.
00:15:02So, she could say, well, I didn't want the divorce, but did she act in a way that made divorce
00:15:07more likely?
00:15:08Like, a man could say, I don't want a divorce.
00:15:11I mean, don't get me wrong.
00:15:12I'm still going to be sleeping with everything that has a pulse and at least one leg, but I don't
00:15:18want a divorce.
00:15:18But he's going to get divorced, probably, because his wife is going to kick his ass out, if that makes
00:15:24sense.
00:15:25Yeah, okay.
00:15:26And the other possibility, which I can keep more brief, the other possibility, of course, is that she married a
00:15:34guy who's restless and bored with marriage and doesn't want to stay married, in which case she chose the wrong
00:15:40guy to be the father of her children.
00:15:42In which case, she still, she could say, well, I, like, let's say that she married a guy who, you
00:15:48know, is dying to become a merchant sailor or, you know, something where he's gone all the time and so
00:15:52on, right?
00:15:53And she says, well, I, I didn't want a divorce.
00:15:56It's like, yeah, but, but you married a guy who was going to be gone all the time.
00:15:59And, and so if, if you marry a guy who doesn't want to stay married to you, either that's because
00:16:04he did want to stay married to you, but something changed now he doesn't, in which case you should have
00:16:09tried to adapt to that thing.
00:16:10Or you married a guy who never liked you in particular, in which case you made a mistake as far
00:16:15as that goes.
00:16:15And so your mom can't really say I'm blameless or innocent in a divorce, if that makes sense.
00:16:22She either didn't adapt in the way she should have to something he wanted, or she chose the wrong guy.
00:16:28Right.
00:16:29Okay.
00:16:29So, so I wouldn't get much out of talking to her at all because she wouldn't have been able to
00:16:36be fully honest about it.
00:16:38And what I really needed is honesty of what actually happened.
00:16:43And like, that would be the ideal thing, right?
00:16:47And you still don't know what happened, right?
00:16:49Yeah.
00:16:50Um, not a hundred percent, but I think it was, well, from my dad's view, um, I think he, my
00:16:58mom was, uh, his first relationship and he said he was, he felt kind of quite insecure in his twenties.
00:17:06And I think, and he said, um, around about 30 or so, um, he's, you know, this is about the
00:17:16right age to get married.
00:17:17And I think he thought more or less, this is the best that I can do.
00:17:22Um, even though they're probably not that compatible, really.
00:17:26Um, so I, I don't know what you mean by this, sorry, I don't know what you mean by this
00:17:32compatibility thing.
00:17:33Right.
00:17:34I mean, we love, um, if, if two people are virtuous, they're, they're going to have respect and admiration for
00:17:40each other.
00:17:40I, I'm not sure if there's a magic key called compatibility that opens a lot to people's hearts, if that
00:17:45makes sense.
00:17:45Uh, yeah, right.
00:17:47Yeah.
00:17:48That's not super clear.
00:17:49Um, well, I think my dad's, um, more educated and intelligent than my mom and he also is religious and
00:18:00my mom wasn't.
00:18:01Um, and yeah, I think probably those two things where they differ.
00:18:10Okay.
00:18:10But they were together long enough to have three kids, right?
00:18:14Yeah.
00:18:15Yeah.
00:18:15So that's clearly not that bad, right?
00:18:19I mean, I'm not saying like, oh, that justifies or anything, but it's, I'm just saying what he told me.
00:18:26No, but he knew that she was not religious when he married her.
00:18:28Right.
00:18:30Yeah.
00:18:30So you don't get to change that later.
00:18:33I don't get to wake up one morning and say to my wife, Hey, you're kind of short.
00:18:37It's over.
00:18:38Right.
00:18:38I knew she was short when I married her.
00:18:41Yeah.
00:18:42I mean, yeah, it's not a good reason or anything.
00:18:45Like I'm not under any illusions about that.
00:18:48Okay.
00:18:48So, so it's a bad reason.
00:18:50So did he just, cause another thing that can happen is a man starts to make some money and
00:18:54he looks at his wife and he says, you know, I'm wealthier now.
00:18:57I could get a, I could get a more attractive female.
00:19:00I think that probably did happen.
00:19:03Um, yeah, I think that's, it's probably a woman's sexual market value as a whole goes
00:19:11down over her twenties and thirties, but a man's goes up because he's, you know, usually
00:19:14making some money, got some savings, got some income and some professional success.
00:19:19And so, uh, yeah, but I mean, that's the deal you make, right?
00:19:22The woman trades in her high sexual market value and the man's goes up later, but there's
00:19:25supposed to be, you know, loyalty.
00:19:28I mean, your father can't have been that religious if he broke his marriage vows.
00:19:32Cause those are solemn vows sworn before almighty God.
00:19:36Um, yeah, yeah.
00:19:37I mean, I don't think it was super religious.
00:19:40Um, so yeah, that's quite.
00:19:43I mean, the more he dials up religion to excuse getting a divorce, the more he should stay
00:19:48married.
00:19:50Yeah.
00:19:50Like, I mean, yeah, it, it, it's not, um, because he's, uh, uh, Catholic and, you know,
00:19:59obviously that's not something you can do in Catholicism is get, um, get divorced.
00:20:06Oh yeah.
00:20:07And he, he told me that he, he went to the priest to ask if he could get the marriage
00:20:13annulled
00:20:14and they said no.
00:20:16Not with three kids you can't.
00:20:18Yeah, exactly.
00:20:19I mean, if you're married under false pretenses within a week, you can probably get annulled,
00:20:23but it's pretty tough later.
00:20:25Uh, yeah.
00:20:25I mean, I think he was looking for a guilt free way to get out of it, I think.
00:20:29Right.
00:20:30Right.
00:20:30Okay.
00:20:31So you and your siblings cannot express the misery of your parents' divorce because that
00:20:39will make them feel bad.
00:20:41And therefore, because of their hedonism and they get divorced on the grounds that the kids
00:20:48will be fine.
00:20:48Kids are resilient.
00:20:49The kids will be fine.
00:20:50They'll struggle through.
00:20:52They'll, you know, it's better for them if we're happy.
00:20:54Maybe it's better for them if, you know, they're not in a household with people who aren't super
00:21:00passionate for each other and so on.
00:21:01So they talk themselves into changing the calculations.
00:21:05So I'll go from minus five to plus five.
00:21:08The kids will go, you know, from five to two for a little while.
00:21:12Then they'll go back up to seven because they won't be in this oppressive marriage where
00:21:17people don't, they're not passionate about each other.
00:21:19So, so people do this equation and I know this sounds like kind of silly with regards
00:21:24to the math, but it is actually how people do stuff like unconsciously.
00:21:28We have very sort of math based creatures.
00:21:31So the parents say there'll be a dip, but the kids will end up, they'll be happier in
00:21:36the long run.
00:21:36And so they can then view the family as being up in happiness points over time.
00:21:44Like in the same way you go to the dentist, you're not happy being at the dentist, but
00:21:47you're happier later because you don't have sore teeth or whatever it is, receding gums.
00:21:52So that's how they do it.
00:21:53That's how they do the calculation in their unconscious.
00:21:57And if you go from plus five to minus five and stay there, they're like, oh shit, did I
00:22:04lie to myself about the calculation?
00:22:06Am I wrong about this?
00:22:08Have I just made my children miserable?
00:22:12Because I thought they were just going to be unhappy for a little while and then be happier.
00:22:16And if you keep going and being unhappier, then it screws up the whole equation.
00:22:23It's like some guy, you know, fuels, puts 500 gallons of fuel into his plane and then
00:22:28he's up at 30,000 feet and he runs, he's letting her run out of fuel.
00:22:31He's like, oh shit, did I slip a digit?
00:22:33Did I fat figure something?
00:22:34Because we're in trouble now, right?
00:22:36Because I miscalculated.
00:22:38And so your happiness has to be denied for the equation to work.
00:22:44You cannot show unhappiness, at least not for long.
00:22:47You're allowed a little bit.
00:22:48Yeah, you know, okay.
00:22:49Yeah.
00:22:49We're going to go, you know, we'll even allow you to go into the negatives for a little
00:22:53bit.
00:22:54But you better, you better ship up and you better shape up because the whole calculation
00:22:59rests on you guys ending up at a seven relatively quickly.
00:23:02So you can't show your unhappiness.
00:23:04Does that make sense?
00:23:07Yeah, in an abstract way.
00:23:09But what would actually happen?
00:23:10So if I was to show my unhappiness and then I realized, oh shit, the calculations are wrong.
00:23:16Like what?
00:23:17Why couldn't I do that?
00:23:19What would happen?
00:23:20Well, anger.
00:23:22Well, they'll just be angry at their own kids for what they did.
00:23:25Oh, you're being self-indulgent, snap out of it, it's not that bad, stop feeling so sorry
00:23:30for yourself, I'm hurting too.
00:23:32You know, the standard stuff that comes out of selfish people when other people's feelings
00:23:37inconvenience them.
00:23:38Yeah.
00:23:40Yeah.
00:23:41All right, that's enough.
00:23:42That's enough.
00:23:43Dry your eyes.
00:23:44We've got to move on with life.
00:23:46We can't just wallow in the past.
00:23:47We can't just sit in our own misery.
00:23:49We've got to move on.
00:23:50We've got to march on.
00:23:51I mean, I heard all this shit when I was in England growing up.
00:23:53So, you're going to drown in this quicksand of your own self-pity.
00:24:00You know, I'm moving on, your brothers are moving on, you've got to move on.
00:24:04Like, you can't just wallow in this.
00:24:06It's done, it's done.
00:24:07We've got to move on.
00:24:07We've got to find a better thing in life.
00:24:10And if you come back and you're unhappy again, what happens?
00:24:13They get even more annoyed.
00:24:14You can't slip into the negatives and stay there because then the equation doesn't work
00:24:18and they feel terrible.
00:24:19Yeah, I think that definitely would happen if I had done that.
00:24:26But why?
00:24:28Because there's other, you know, family members around, like grandparents, and they didn't
00:24:36talk to me about it.
00:24:37And, like, is it just wanting to avoid a difficult conversation or, like, why, yeah, what's their
00:24:48incentive to not?
00:24:49Okay, let's talk about the grandparents on your father's side.
00:24:53Well, they raised a selfish guy.
00:24:55So, how are they going to deal with your unhappiness?
00:24:58They're going to then feel guilty about the amount of sorrow that their son is causing their
00:25:02grandchildren.
00:25:03And maybe they gave him advice, like, you know what, if you're that miserable, the kids
00:25:08will be better off.
00:25:09If anyone even thinks about the kids in divorce, which sometimes they don't, really.
00:25:13But, yeah, they could have given bad advice to your father, in which case they're not
00:25:18going to hear about your, they don't want to hear about your unhappiness.
00:25:22Eh, 500 gallons ought to be totally enough to get you to do from the, you know, I'm at
00:25:27500 feet running out of fuel.
00:25:30Oh, shit.
00:25:30But if you give people bad advice, you don't want to see the sorrow.
00:25:34There probably is something in that, because, well, three out of the five kids got divorced.
00:25:42Three out of the five kids got divorced, yeah.
00:25:45I mean, we make good decisions.
00:25:47I mean, there's moral reasons to make decisions, but we make good decisions when we get the
00:25:50math right, as well.
00:25:53Our business succeeds if we get a certain amount of income compared to our expenses, right?
00:25:56So, if we get the math right, then things are better.
00:26:02If we get the math wrong, but we can bully people, especially children.
00:26:07We can bully children into conforming with the math we want.
00:26:10You cannot be unhappy, because I banked my entire selfish decision on it being better
00:26:15for you.
00:26:17You're not allowed to be unhappy, because that screws up the whole equation, and then I feel
00:26:21terrible.
00:26:21And because I'm a selfish person, I don't want to feel terrible.
00:26:25Yeah.
00:26:26Does that make sense?
00:26:27Yeah.
00:26:28Yeah, that makes sense.
00:26:31And then, I guess on my mom's side, it's that what she, well, I don't know how much my
00:26:40mom contributed to the divorce directly or indirectly, but I guess she made a bad decision
00:26:47maybe with the marriage or what she did in the marriage, and then my grandparents probably
00:26:51weren't giving her great guidance there.
00:26:55So, there would be blowback for them because of that.
00:26:58But, well, okay, so let's say that your father was missing more stimulating conversation.
00:27:04Maybe.
00:27:05You said it's a compatibility issue, right?
00:27:07I think it was the opposite.
00:27:09Your what?
00:27:10Your mother was missing?
00:27:11I thought you said your father was smarter than your mother.
00:27:14Oh, sorry.
00:27:15Yeah.
00:27:15Yeah.
00:27:17Sorry, what?
00:27:17It makes sense.
00:27:18Yeah.
00:27:19Yeah.
00:27:19Sorry.
00:27:20I thought you were saying the opposite.
00:27:21So, yeah, my mom wasn't really providing the stimulating conversation.
00:27:24Okay, well, let that Freudian slip go by for the moment.
00:27:26But, so, let's say that your father was really into a World War II history.
00:27:32Loved to talk about World War II history.
00:27:34And let's say that World War II history was not particularly interesting to your mother.
00:27:40What should she do?
00:27:42Well, I think she should make an effort to try and learn a bit about it and engage.
00:27:49But, you know, I guess with hobbies, you don't have to share all the same hobbies.
00:27:56So, it's, I guess if she would give him time to go and pursue that on his own.
00:28:03Okay, I can't do that.
00:28:05I didn't say you have to share all the same hobbies.
00:28:07So, let's not go down this route of heaviness, right?
00:28:10Okay, so, if your father really loves talking about World War II history, then your mother should learn about World
00:28:17War II history.
00:28:18That's just being married.
00:28:20My wife will ask me what color we should paint something.
00:28:24Do I care?
00:28:25I really don't.
00:28:26But I care that she cares, so I'll go and talk about it.
00:28:30Okay.
00:28:30So, you've got to accommodate to some extent.
00:28:35Well, yeah, if your partner's into something, you know, I mean, you have this as a parent, which is, if
00:28:41your kid is into something, you learn about that thing.
00:28:45You know, my daughter was very interested in a video game called Little Nightmares.
00:28:49I can't tell you how much I've learned about the video game Little Nightmares and played it.
00:28:54Because that's what she's into.
00:28:56Good.
00:28:57I mean, you get into what people are into.
00:29:01My wife, like a lot of wives, likes going to farmer's markets.
00:29:05Do I, as a straight man, enjoy going to farmer's markets?
00:29:11Probably not.
00:29:12I do not.
00:29:14Do I happily go to farmer's markets?
00:29:16I do, because it makes my wife happy.
00:29:19So, I'll go and I'll poke around and we'll maybe buy a little tart or something like that.
00:29:24And I'll make a joke about this being my second little tart of the day or something like that.
00:29:30So, I'd go to, you know, my daughter likes Renaissance Fairs.
00:29:34So, we go to Renaissance Fairs.
00:29:36I mean, I don't mind them, actually, but I wouldn't go on my own, right?
00:29:39You know, when my daughter was younger, she liked going to playgrounds.
00:29:42Do I go to playgrounds?
00:29:43I do not.
00:29:45Even if there's nobody there and it's not weird.
00:29:47I don't go to playgrounds because I'm 59.
00:29:49But my daughter likes going to play.
00:29:51In fact, we were just up at a place with a big, giant playground and a friend of my daughter's
00:29:57was there.
00:29:58And we, you know, for old time's sake, we jumped on all of the old stuff, right?
00:30:02We climbed the spiderwebs.
00:30:04We did the zip lines.
00:30:05We did the roundabout.
00:30:07It was fun.
00:30:09Would I do that?
00:30:09No.
00:30:10But my daughter wanted to do it.
00:30:11I did it from old time's sake.
00:30:13It's probably the last time we'll ever do it.
00:30:15And so, you just, you get into what?
00:30:19The people you love are into.
00:30:21There's not a coincidence of once.
00:30:24Yeah.
00:30:24And my wife does the same thing.
00:30:25I quite like true crime drama sometimes because I love studying the nature of evil.
00:30:30It's kind of the job.
00:30:32And I don't necessarily say that my wife is, like, super keen on true crime dramas.
00:30:38But she'll watch it and we'll talk about it.
00:30:41And then the stuff that she likes to watch from time to time, which I'm happy to dip in and
00:30:45so on.
00:30:46And if she says, oh, this is a good show.
00:30:48And I'm like, I don't know.
00:30:49She's like, oh, it gets better.
00:30:50I'll trust her.
00:30:50I'll keep watching it, right?
00:30:52So, you just, you overlap.
00:30:55You, I mean, she's not into everything I'm into.
00:30:57I'm not into everything she's into.
00:30:59But, you know, if she's really into something, I'll find a way to make it.
00:31:03And even if it's not fun for me, it's fun for me that it's fun for her, if that makes
00:31:07sense.
00:31:08Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
00:31:10So, you don't have to completely adopt.
00:31:12Sorry, go ahead.
00:31:14So, you don't have to completely, you know, adopt their hobby.
00:31:18But you've got to, you know, engage with it somewhat and because of them.
00:31:24Well, otherwise, what's going to happen?
00:31:26Let's say my wife wants to go to the farmer's market.
00:31:30What, am I just going to sit home?
00:31:32I'd rather go with her.
00:31:33She's great fun to go places with.
00:31:35We have a blast.
00:31:36Doesn't hugely matter where we go.
00:31:39Yeah.
00:31:40We just go together, right?
00:31:41So, if your father wants to go to the World War II Museum, then your mother should go and
00:31:48ask a bunch of questions and read up ahead of time.
00:31:50And, oh, is this a Spitfire?
00:31:51Oh, is that a Messerschmitt?
00:31:52Is that a Hawker Hurricane?
00:31:54You know, is that a B-52?
00:31:56And just, wow, that's cool.
00:31:57Imagine the bombs and, you know, like, wow, this is where the little guy used to shoot
00:32:01from under the underside of the airplane.
00:32:03Like, that's crazy.
00:32:04You know, just get into it.
00:32:06Why not?
00:32:07Yeah.
00:32:08Because otherwise, what happens is you end up doing fewer and fewer things together and
00:32:12then you just wake up, look across and see a stranger.
00:32:15Yeah.
00:32:16Okay.
00:32:17And it's, again, it's selfish to say, well, I'm just not into that.
00:32:21So, I'm just not going to look into it.
00:32:23I'm not going to do anything about it.
00:32:24It's not, I don't care.
00:32:25Like, that's selfish.
00:32:26When you get married, you say, I love you.
00:32:30And therefore, I'm going to put every kind of effort in to figure out what you like and
00:32:37how I can overlap with that.
00:32:39I mean, you know, there's this memory game called, I think it's called Anomia, and I'm
00:32:44not particularly good at it, but my daughter is fantastic at it.
00:32:48So, she loves to play it.
00:32:49I feel like a complete mouth breather idiot playing this game, but she enjoys it.
00:32:56So, I'll just do it.
00:32:58I mean, it's fine.
00:33:00You know, we laugh, we have fun, blah, blah, blah.
00:33:03You know, so, I mean, what am I going to do?
00:33:06No.
00:33:07No, I'm not playing that game.
00:33:09I'm not good at it, and I don't enjoy it.
00:33:10It's like, come on.
00:33:12I mean, you know, she wants to play it.
00:33:13Let's play it.
00:33:14Am I going to really, at the end of my life, on my deathbed, say, gee, I wish I'd played
00:33:17fewer fun games with my daughter, man.
00:33:19That would have been great.
00:33:21Yeah.
00:33:23Right.
00:33:23And the reason I'm saying all of this is that I assume, I assume that your parents, being
00:33:29what it seems like pretty selfish people, your parents did not put aside their
00:33:36preferences to pursue yours, like what you were interested, what you were into.
00:33:42Yeah, a little bit, but not that much.
00:33:45Yeah, not much, right?
00:33:46Not much.
00:33:49I was talking to a guy not too long ago.
00:33:51He was working three years on a car in the basement.
00:33:57I think it was a life-size car or something.
00:34:00And three years, they never came down.
00:34:02Never, not once.
00:34:03I mean, so you really do have to, you know, throw yourself into what your kids are into.
00:34:08That's how you show you care about them.
00:34:11You care about the person, not the thing itself.
00:34:13I don't care about farmer's markets.
00:34:14I love my wife.
00:34:16And she loves me, so she's not going to drag me to five farmer's markets a week, not the
00:34:20cheap girl or whatever, right?
00:34:21But I care about the person.
00:34:23Otherwise, it's just a coincidence of once.
00:34:25You know, oh, we both happen to be walking in the same direction for a while until we're
00:34:29not, right?
00:34:30Then it's just a coincidence of once.
00:34:31But yeah, of course, you put your immediate preferences aside to make the other person
00:34:36happy.
00:34:37Sure, because their happiness is your preference.
00:34:39My fundamental preference is that my wife has a great Saturday, and if she wants to go
00:34:44to the farmer's market, I'll go to the farmer's market.
00:34:46And I won't go like scuffing my feet and scowling or I wish I was somewhere else.
00:34:51I'll go, and we'll talk about stuff, and oh, I haven't seen this vendor here before, and
00:34:55do you think that it's a good butter tartan?
00:34:58My daughter and I will roam around looking for samples, like it's this primitive hunter-gatherer
00:35:03gene that we both have.
00:35:04We must get samples.
00:35:05And so, yeah, we'll go do it, and it'll be fun.
00:35:09And it doesn't sound like your parents tried to get into what you were into with great energy
00:35:16and focus, like with genuine, like, I really want to understand this.
00:35:21Yeah, not really.
00:35:24I think, yeah, my dad would go to my football games, but he played football, so he was already,
00:35:30I guess, into that.
00:35:31But if it's something they had no interest in, it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't much of that.
00:35:39Well, and of course, he would have some bragging rights if you played well and so on, right?
00:35:43Okay, so that's a shame.
00:35:47It's a shame that they missed out on a lot of fun with you, and it's a shame, really,
00:35:53that you felt rejected, because it is a rejection, especially with kids.
00:35:57See, your parents were in each other's lives voluntarily.
00:36:00You and your siblings weren't in their lives at all voluntarily.
00:36:05And so, parents owe this kind of interest to their children in what their children are
00:36:11interested in, because if parents don't show any interest in what their children are interested
00:36:15in, the children feel what?
00:36:19Like, we're uninteresting.
00:36:22Yeah, uninteresting, weird, incompatible with, you know, at least romantically successful people
00:36:29like our parents, at least they've been sexually successful because we exist.
00:36:32So, how do you feel if your parents don't take much interest in what you're interested
00:36:39in?
00:36:40Yeah, you feel uninteresting.
00:36:41You feel weird.
00:36:41You feel, like, pointless.
00:36:43You feel like you just have these bizarre little obsessions that don't make sense to anyone.
00:36:49Did your parents, before or after the divorce, did they, like, were they distracted a lot?
00:36:55Did they watch a lot of TV?
00:36:56Did they go out a lot?
00:36:57Like, where were they when you were home?
00:37:00Were they, um, I think my, my mum was main, the main one looking after us.
00:37:08Um, so, yeah, she did watch quite a bit of TV.
00:37:13Um, and, yeah, I felt like there wasn't that much time that she would sort of spend with
00:37:24us, like, quality time.
00:37:26So, yeah, TV or, um, I mean, doing sports, which, working, like, seems like she was often
00:37:37busy doing something she needed to do or distracting herself with TV or something like that.
00:37:45Okay, and how did it feel to you when your mother would rather watch hours of television
00:37:53than play a game with you?
00:37:55Um, I mean, yeah, it didn't feel like we were very, like, we were not close.
00:38:02Like, there's a, there's a barrier there between us.
00:38:07And what was that barrier?
00:38:09It's that barrier.
00:38:11Uh, I, I don't know, I'm blanking on that, um, but, yeah, there's just, there's a distance.
00:38:18Um, I don't know, sorry, I'm blanking on this one.
00:38:23Okay, so, what's the barrier?
00:38:25She would rather watch TV than spend time with you or your siblings.
00:38:31So, what does that mean?
00:38:33What does it mean?
00:38:34And, oh, well, I guess it means she thinks the TV is more interesting than us.
00:38:41Well, not she thinks, she believes, like, that's, no, not she thinks, that's like a
00:38:45theoretical, like, it's real.
00:38:46Yeah.
00:38:47That she prefers watching TV to spending time with her children.
00:38:52I'm an empiricist, right?
00:38:54So, I don't really care what people, uh, say, I, I care what they, they do.
00:38:59Because, in, in, we can't read minds, we can only process deeds, right?
00:39:06Right, right.
00:39:07So, she would rather spend time watching television than interact with her children.
00:39:16And, of course, I know not 100% and all of that, but, but that's, that's the fact, isn't it?
00:39:21That's the empirical fact.
00:39:23Children are empirical.
00:39:24They're not, uh, they're not theoretical, if that makes sense.
00:39:29Yeah.
00:39:30Yeah.
00:39:31Um, and, I guess this, or just came to me, when you were talking about the, going to the,
00:39:40um, things your wife likes to do, uh, farmers markets and things like that, um, you know,
00:39:46there'll be times, like, my mom would want to go to, I don't know, yeah, art galleries
00:39:53or little craft shops and things like that, that was not very interesting for me.
00:40:00Um, and, yeah, I, I don't feel like there was much reciprocity there, like, of, okay,
00:40:08well, I'll do something that my mom wants to do.
00:40:12She wants to go to this art gallery and I don't really want to be there.
00:40:16But then we're going to go and, yeah, do something that I want to do.
00:40:21If it wasn't, certainly wasn't balanced like that, um, just as another example, I guess.
00:40:30Okay.
00:40:31Got it.
00:40:32So how do you think children experience that kind of rejection?
00:40:38Because it is rejection.
00:40:40Or you experience that kind of rejection, um, is this like what in the moment you'd feel
00:40:48it or it's just a, a thing that builds up over time.
00:40:52Let's talk about it in the moment because it's a little tough to talk about things in
00:40:56the abstract that way.
00:40:57Yeah.
00:40:58Yeah.
00:41:00Well, yeah, yeah, it does.
00:41:02I guess it would feel like rejection if I was to, to say I wanted to play soccer with
00:41:12my mom or, you know, some sort of sport like that, that she didn't want to do.
00:41:16And then she just says, no, um, yeah, but there's some rejection.
00:41:22There's just a bit more distance between us.
00:41:25Um, if that answers your question, I don't know if that gets the emotions of it, but, um,
00:41:32yeah.
00:41:33Does that answer the question?
00:41:35Okay.
00:41:37So have you known people who have a dog or have you ever had a dog?
00:41:43Um, I've never had dog, but you have known people who've had a dog.
00:41:47Okay.
00:41:47Now you know that a dog takes a fair amount of maintenance, right?
00:41:50I mean, you've got to walk the dog.
00:41:52You've got to take the dog to the vet.
00:41:53You're going to clean up after the dog.
00:41:55You've got to train the dog.
00:41:56You know, that kind of stuff, right?
00:41:57Yeah.
00:41:58Yeah.
00:41:59All right.
00:41:59Now, if somebody has a dog, but doesn't walk the dog, doesn't play with the dog, doesn't
00:42:07clean up after the dog, doesn't train the dog.
00:42:09What do you think of that person?
00:42:12They're a, yeah, they're a bad owner.
00:42:14Potentially.
00:42:15Okay.
00:42:15Tell me more about, yeah.
00:42:17Tell me what you think about that.
00:42:19A bad owner.
00:42:20Okay.
00:42:20So tell me more about what you think about that.
00:42:23Well, yeah, quite, I guess you'd say they're quite a neglectful owner and I guess depends
00:42:31how far it goes, but you'd say that's quite cruel if they, if they weren't, yeah, going
00:42:40to take a dog for a walk and give it any attention.
00:42:45Like, why did they even get the dog?
00:42:48Like, was it just, they wanted it as a puppy, but then they didn't, but then they got bored
00:42:59of it or, yeah, what it's, yeah, it's abusive, I think.
00:43:05Right.
00:43:05So why would someone get a dog and then ignore the dog?
00:43:10Because, I mean, if you get tired of the dog, what can you do?
00:43:14You can just give the dog away.
00:43:16There's lots of people who want dogs, particularly free dogs.
00:43:21So you just find a family and say, oh, you know what?
00:43:23I, I thought I would enjoy dog ownership.
00:43:25Turns out I don't.
00:43:27Um, so you would, right.
00:43:30You would give the dog up, right?
00:43:32Now, everybody knows what children need in a way much more vivid than knowing what dogs
00:43:38need because we've all been children.
00:43:40So we've all experienced that hunger and that need for parents to love us, to play with
00:43:46us, to interact with us and so on.
00:43:47Right.
00:43:48This is especially true of the eldest child because they're with the parents earliest and
00:43:55longest, if that makes sense.
00:43:58So why would people have children and then not interact with them very much?
00:44:07Why would somebody have a dog and keep a dog?
00:44:10And let me ask you this.
00:44:12What if somebody had three dogs?
00:44:15They get one dog.
00:44:17They kind of ignore it.
00:44:18It's really cruel.
00:44:18The dog is whining and upset and tense and miserable.
00:44:22And then they get another dog and they ignore that dog too.
00:44:25And then they get another dog and they ignore that dog too.
00:44:28What would you think?
00:44:30I, yeah, I have no idea what would make somebody want to do that.
00:44:35Um.
00:44:35Sure you do.
00:44:36What would you think?
00:44:37I told you, but I want to do it.
00:44:38What would you think?
00:44:40Why would somebody keep getting dogs and not spending time with them?
00:44:45Do they, do they like seeing sad dogs?
00:44:52So I, I don't know what, why are you a dog?
00:44:55Yeah.
00:44:55So there's, there's a number of reasons, all of which are pretty cruel.
00:44:58So the reason you would get three dogs and ignore them all is because you enjoy the dogs
00:45:03wanting things from you and you enjoy the power of not giving those things to the dogs.
00:45:07Oh, are you hungry?
00:45:08Yeah.
00:45:09You can't have any food.
00:45:10And the dog is longingly looking at you and desperate to go for a walk.
00:45:14And you say, nope, not going for a walkie today.
00:45:16Rover, buster, Keaton, not going for walkies.
00:45:19Walkies?
00:45:20No.
00:45:21Right.
00:45:21It's a form of power through denial.
00:45:23Right.
00:45:24It's standard prison guard stuff.
00:45:26Right.
00:45:27The prisoners want their freedom, especially in some gulag, right, where the prisoners aren't
00:45:31even justly there.
00:45:33They're not criminals.
00:45:33They're just against the regime.
00:45:35So it's standard.
00:45:36Oh, you want something?
00:45:37You can't have it.
00:45:38And people feel powerful because of that.
00:45:40They feel like they have value because they provoke.
00:45:44Need in others.
00:45:46And then refuse to satisfy it.
00:45:48I mean, when I was younger, we used to call this blue balls that a girl or a woman would
00:45:55get you all hot and bothered and, you know, would feel you up a little and then, oh, got
00:45:59to go home.
00:45:59Right.
00:46:00And of course, that's perfectly fine and valid and so on.
00:46:02But it's also a little cruel.
00:46:04Right.
00:46:05It's like going to a homeless guy who's starving and say, oh, oh, I'm going to eat the sandwich
00:46:09right in front of you and just seeing the longing.
00:46:10And like, it's kind of cruel and it's maybe a little sadistic and all of that.
00:46:14But is it just about having power because other people need something from you and you
00:46:18can deny it?
00:46:21Yeah.
00:46:22What?
00:46:23Could there not be another, another reason?
00:46:27I'm, I'm, of course, there could always be another reason.
00:46:29I'm, I'm open to hearing them.
00:46:31Like, well, what if you, when you've got the dogs, you were, you know, happy and doing
00:46:39well and then your life, I don't know, your life's not going well anymore and you're depressed
00:46:48and that's why you don't want to interact with your dogs or take them for a walk.
00:46:55Like, what if it's not about the power?
00:46:58It's just, yeah, you're depressed.
00:47:01Okay.
00:47:02That's certainly a fine, a fine hypothesis.
00:47:05Now, do pets generally help people with depression or make people worse?
00:47:13I think they help.
00:47:15Yeah.
00:47:15Yeah.
00:47:16So you can't say I'm too depressed to interact with my dogs when interacting with your dogs
00:47:22makes you feel better.
00:47:24I mean, I remember when I was new to the media game and I was being attacked by the media,
00:47:29which was kind of a bit of a surprise for me because I'm actually a really nice guy and
00:47:32all of that.
00:47:32But I remember being, you know, you get kind of stressed about things, right?
00:47:36And whenever I was stressed about these things or other things, I go roll around and play
00:47:42with my daughter and it all vanishes and I'm great.
00:47:46Now, I'm not saying that I'm some sort of template for everyone, but in general, people
00:47:52interacting with affectionate animals, it doesn't make them more depressed, does it?
00:47:57It helps.
00:47:59Yeah.
00:47:59So if you say, well, I'm too depressed to interact with my kids, it's like saying I'm in too much
00:48:04pain to take painkillers.
00:48:06It doesn't make sense because kids will make you feel better.
00:48:10Uh, but would it make you feel better if you felt guilty about the, if you felt guilty
00:48:18about the divorce, then we'd spend more time with them.
00:48:21Hang on, hang on, hang on.
00:48:21So, so hang on, because we're talking about things that led up to the divorce.
00:48:26I understand the divorce is important.
00:48:28Right.
00:48:30But we're talking about not interacting with you, even when you were younger.
00:48:35Right.
00:48:36I think, I guess it is a little bit hard to remember, but I don't think it was as bad
00:48:42before the divorce.
00:48:43I really think it was, it was mainly afterwards.
00:48:46I think, um, I think my parents did play with me, um, beforehand.
00:48:53And so, yeah, I don't think it was like that, like that, well, but as we talked about earlier,
00:49:00sorry, Jim drop, as we talked about earlier, your happiness and the happiness of your siblings
00:49:05had to be discounted or your on your unhappiness, the unhappiness of you and your siblings had
00:49:10to be discounted for the, for the divorce to even exist in the first place.
00:49:14And so there was already something missing in that your parents got divorced with no emergency.
00:49:19Do you see what I mean?
00:49:21Uh, what do you mean something missing?
00:49:23But something missing in your parents, because if your parents had realized how unhappy the
00:49:29divorce was going to make you and how they were going to have to force you to lie and
00:49:33suppress your feelings.
00:49:34And if they'd have known that decades later, you're dealing with emotional disconnects,
00:49:38they wouldn't have got divorced.
00:49:39They would have just done whatever it was necessary or whatever they could do to fix things.
00:49:44Right.
00:49:46Right.
00:49:47Right.
00:49:47And so they had to discount how unhappy the divorce was going to make you.
00:49:51In other words, they already had to be selfish in order to get divorced.
00:49:55Now, once you get divorced and you've made these kinds of big mistakes, then you're really
00:49:58committed to your selfishness.
00:50:00And then it becomes harder, even harder to have empathy with your children.
00:50:03But that doesn't excuse anything.
00:50:07Because also, you know, if you have a hypothesis, right?
00:50:10And we've all done this, right?
00:50:11Say, oh, I think I'll turn left here.
00:50:13And then the GPS says, nope, you turned wrong, recalculating.
00:50:16So we all have hypotheses, and then we let go of those hypotheses when it turns out they're
00:50:21wrong.
00:50:22So if your parents were like, oh, the kids will be fine if we get divorced, and then
00:50:26they separate, and there's usually a separation prior to divorce, and the kids are really miserable,
00:50:31then they'd say, oh, you know, we may have calculated wrong.
00:50:34We should probably try and work on the marriage so that the kids aren't so unhappy.
00:50:37Does that make sense?
00:50:40Yeah, well, I remember my dad actually, and I talked to him as an adult about their divorce.
00:50:48He did mention that he, I think it was shortly after they separated, that he did have a thought
00:50:55of, you know, what am I doing?
00:51:00But I guess he just, I don't know, he suppressed that, repressed that, and ignored that thought.
00:51:10Well, it probably was the case that he saw how unhappy and destabilizing it was, both
00:51:16for his wife and his kids.
00:51:18The difference being that his wife chose to have him in her life, and you kids didn't.
00:51:23So he probably went through, like, what am I doing?
00:51:25This calculation is incorrect, right?
00:51:28I thought the kids would not be so unhappy, the kids are really miserable, and screw it,
00:51:33I'm still going on, right?
00:51:35Exactly, yeah.
00:51:36So if you see someone ignoring a dog, harming a dog, and getting more dogs, what do you feel?
00:51:47Yeah, I'm going to feel a bit sad for the dogs, and angry, yeah, angry at the person.
00:51:59Sorry, angry at the person, I mean, are you asking me or telling me?
00:52:05I'm choking up at that, but yeah, angry at the person.
00:52:09Angry at the person.
00:52:10Now, if you're angry at your parents for getting divorced, and they can't even give you a good
00:52:18reason.
00:52:19Well, son, your mom developed leprosy.
00:52:22Well, kids, your father had a brain tumor and went insane, right?
00:52:27I mean, you could imagine reasons, right?
00:52:29So they can't even give you.
00:52:30There's not even a good reason.
00:52:32It wasn't even like somebody had a terrible affair, or, you know, your mother put on 150
00:52:36pounds, or like, you don't know why.
00:52:40Why are my parents putting me through this ungodly level of suffering?
00:52:44Why?
00:52:46But they can't tell you, right?
00:52:48No, we fell out of love.
00:52:49What?
00:52:49That doesn't mean anything.
00:52:51And it is also very harmful to tell children that you can just fall out of love.
00:52:56Do you know why?
00:52:57Because it makes you scared to commit to anyone.
00:53:04Yeah, because who knows what happens, right?
00:53:06You could be together for 10, 15 years, and then, oh, man, it sucks, man.
00:53:10You just wake up one day, and you just kind of hate the person.
00:53:13No reason.
00:53:14Nobody did anything.
00:53:15Nothing changed.
00:53:16You know?
00:53:18It's like telling your kids, you know, you can work out.
00:53:20You can exercise.
00:53:21You one day, you just wake up, and your arm's falling off.
00:53:24No reason.
00:53:25Just happens.
00:53:26Happens a lot, actually.
00:53:27I mean, that would kind of freak the kids out, right?
00:53:30Yeah.
00:53:31Yeah.
00:53:32So even in giving this bullshit non-explanation, they were cruel to the kids.
00:53:40So what you suspected was there was no good reason to get divorced.
00:53:45Deep down, right?
00:53:46We've got an instinct about these things.
00:53:47So deep down, you suspected that there was no good reason to get a divorce, right?
00:53:56But if there's no good reason to get a divorce, why the fuck are they doing it?
00:54:01Why are they putting their children through such ungodly misery?
00:54:06Why are they destroying the family's finances, having to have two homes, having to have things
00:54:11go back and forth, spending God knows how much on lawyers?
00:54:16Why are they doing it?
00:54:19Because without a good reason, it just seems horribly cruel.
00:54:25Like we could say some guy, you know, kills his ex-wife because he found out that his children
00:54:31weren't his.
00:54:32She lied about his paternity.
00:54:35Okay, still send him to prison.
00:54:38It's still wrong to murder your wife.
00:54:40But at least there'd be a motive that we could somewhat comprehend, right?
00:54:44If some guy just goes and kills some woman for no reason, that's really hard to process,
00:54:51right?
00:54:51Why was my family murdered?
00:54:53For what?
00:54:54For what reason?
00:54:55Why was my childhood destroyed?
00:54:57Why was my happiness slaughtered?
00:55:00Why was I sent down this bottomless well of misery from which I'm still trying to dig myself
00:55:06out of decades later?
00:55:07Why?
00:55:09No real reason.
00:55:11That's fucked up.
00:55:13I mean, if your father had become, for some reason, horribly violently angry, or your
00:55:18mother had put on 150 pounds, or somebody started doing drugs, you'd say, well, that was
00:55:23screwed up.
00:55:24But at least I can kind of get it.
00:55:26Well, we just kind of fell out of love.
00:55:30You know, nothing major, no particular reason.
00:55:33There wasn't any of this horrible fighting.
00:55:35But then it's just like, well, why are you guys destroying my childhood for nothing?
00:55:39Did you see?
00:55:41Yeah.
00:55:41Yeah.
00:55:43I mean, I guess the real reason was because he wanted to date and marry somebody else.
00:55:51And that's, yeah, that's what he did.
00:55:56I don't think he did it, like, you know, immediately.
00:55:59I don't think he was cheating or anything, but he wanted to move on.
00:56:03And I think he started dating the year after.
00:56:10And, yeah, got married, like, eight years later.
00:56:15And, yeah, still married.
00:56:19So, he can stay married if he wants to.
00:56:24Sorry, you said he started dating a year later, and then he got married eight years later?
00:56:29Yeah.
00:56:30So, he started, well, I don't know exactly when he started dating, but I know he started,
00:56:34he dated the woman he married the year after.
00:56:39So, he started dating her, and then, yeah, they got married eight years after the separation.
00:56:47Okay, got it.
00:56:49All right, so, imagine this.
00:56:52Imagine that you said to your parents, all right, sit down, sit down, sit down, guys.
00:56:59Sit down.
00:57:00Okay.
00:57:03I'm trying to retain a shred of respect for you guys.
00:57:05I really am.
00:57:06I'm working like a Turk over here.
00:57:09I'm just, I'm trying to, like, why are you blowing up the family?
00:57:14What selfish, lazy nonsense are you telling yourself that you're willing to destroy a family
00:57:21with three little kids?
00:57:24Like, shape the fuck up.
00:57:27Get your shit together.
00:57:28Go to couples counseling.
00:57:30Go to therapy.
00:57:32You've been together for over ten years.
00:57:34You have three children.
00:57:35Work this shit out.
00:57:37Stop being lazy.
00:57:38Stop being selfish.
00:57:40Turn this ship around.
00:57:42Sort it out.
00:57:44Because otherwise, you're just kind of trashy.
00:57:47You're selfish.
00:57:48I have no respect for you.
00:57:50I mean, I'm forced to live with you.
00:57:51But I have no respect for you.
00:57:53You can't ever tell me to do the right thing when you guys won't even stay married for the
00:57:57sake of your children when you loved each other enough for over ten years to have three
00:58:01children and be together.
00:58:04So, sort this shit out.
00:58:06Grow the fuck up.
00:58:08And stay married.
00:58:10What would they have said?
00:58:12Um, well, so this is, what, when they told me they were getting separated, this is, what,
00:58:19if I had said that?
00:58:20Yeah.
00:58:20We're getting separated.
00:58:22No, you're not.
00:58:23No, you're not.
00:58:24Stove that shit.
00:58:25You're not getting fucking separated.
00:58:27Okay?
00:58:28I don't want to.
00:58:29You've got three kids.
00:58:30Grow the fuck up.
00:58:31Work out your differences.
00:58:33Man up.
00:58:34Woman up.
00:58:34Sort it out.
00:58:35You're not getting separated.
00:58:36That's pathetic.
00:58:38That's ridiculous.
00:58:38It's embarrassing.
00:58:39It's cringe.
00:58:40It's retarded.
00:58:42You're not getting separated.
00:58:43You sort this shit out.
00:58:46Well, there's no need for that sort of language.
00:58:49Um, and, you know, this is, you know, adult matters that, you know, maybe you don't really
00:58:58understand at your age, but, um, I'm sorry, you're concerned about, you're blowing up the
00:59:03whole family and you're concerned about a cuss word.
00:59:07Are you kidding me?
00:59:08Do you have any perspective at all?
00:59:11Why are you getting divorced?
00:59:13Is one of you violent?
00:59:15Has there been terrible affairs?
00:59:16Is, is either one of you drug addicted?
00:59:18I haven't noticed anything.
00:59:20Why are you getting divorced?
00:59:23Um, you made vows.
00:59:25You're a religious man.
00:59:26You're a Christian.
00:59:27You made vows before God almighty to stay married, better and worse, sickness and health,
00:59:33richer, poorer, till death do you part.
00:59:36That's what I put my faith on.
00:59:37I mean, you expect me to keep my promises, right?
00:59:39You expect me to keep my word.
00:59:41This was your promise.
00:59:43Have you been to couples counseling?
00:59:44Have you really tried to work it out?
00:59:46Have you done the necessary work to keep your vows before almighty God?
00:59:50That was the entire foundation of my existence and the security of me and my siblings.
00:59:55Why are you breaking your word to God and breaking the hearts of your children?
01:00:01What is so bad that it's worth breaking our hearts?
01:00:04Go ahead.
01:00:05I've been thinking about this for a number of years.
01:00:09It's not, it's not an easy decision, but I, yeah, I don't love your mom anymore.
01:00:16And, um, yeah, I don't think I can stay married to someone that, that I don't love.
01:00:22Sorry, dad.
01:00:23I don't understand.
01:00:24Hang on.
01:00:24Hang on.
01:00:25Hang on.
01:00:25Hang on.
01:00:27I mean, don't you continually, uh, tell me that I sometimes have to do things that
01:00:33I don't want to do.
01:00:34I have to do chores.
01:00:35I've got to do homework.
01:00:36I've got to go to the dentist.
01:00:37I got to go to the doctors, right?
01:00:39So you tell me continually that sometimes you just got to push through and do things
01:00:45even when you don't want to do them.
01:00:47And you were in love for 10 years and you have three children.
01:00:53So what did you do that was wrong?
01:00:56Or do people just wear out like shoes or something?
01:00:59Are you trying to tell me that I can never get married because I'm just going to wake
01:01:02up one day or slowly over years and there's nothing I can do.
01:01:05I'm just going to fall out of love.
01:01:07Is that, is that what you want to teach your kids that you can just fall out of love and
01:01:12there's nothing you can do because that's fucked up.
01:01:16If you're going to tell your kids that, yo, you can make all these vows, you can love the
01:01:20person with all your heart, but it just, you know, like sand in an hourglass, it just
01:01:24falls away.
01:01:25You just end up out of love.
01:01:28Like you end up out of gas in a car, except you promised to never fall out of love.
01:01:33That was your promise.
01:01:34That was your vow.
01:01:34That's what you founded your entire marriage on.
01:01:37We're not going to fall out of love.
01:01:38So what did you do that was wrong?
01:01:40How did you break this love?
01:01:44Tell me all the steps you guys have made to keep the marriage working.
01:01:47Tell me all the things you've done.
01:01:48There better be a long list.
01:01:50Tell me all the things that you've done to keep the marriage happy, to keep the marriage
01:01:54going, to stay in love.
01:01:55What have you done?
01:01:57You do date nights.
01:01:58You enjoy each other's hobbies as much as possible.
01:02:00Do you laugh together?
01:02:01Have you gone to couples counseling?
01:02:03Have you done self-knowledge?
01:02:04Have you gone to individual therapy?
01:02:05Tell me everything you've done to keep the marriage together.
01:02:11Sometimes you just know that it just can't work.
01:02:15I think, yeah, I have been thinking about this for years.
01:02:19Daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy.
01:02:21Did you hear my question?
01:02:23Because it's pretty rude to ignore someone's question, especially when it's about the happiness
01:02:28of their entire childhood.
01:02:30What was my question, dad?
01:02:32Yeah, I honestly don't know what he'd say.
01:02:35But they can't say shit.
01:02:37Yeah.
01:02:38They didn't go to individual therapy.
01:02:39They didn't go to couples counseling.
01:02:41They didn't pursue self-knowledge.
01:02:42They didn't work to enjoy each other's hobbies.
01:02:46It's like some guy who never works out and overeats saying, hey, man, you know, sometimes
01:02:50you just get fat.
01:02:51It's like, no, you took every step to insure.
01:02:54And he broke his vow.
01:02:57So, if you were, and of course, no eight-year-old can have that conversation.
01:03:02I get that.
01:03:02It's just a mental exercise, right?
01:03:04Yeah.
01:03:05But if you kept pushing, what would he do?
01:03:09What happens when you get between a hedonist and displeasures?
01:03:13Well, yeah, he'd probably try and leave the conversation or get angry, or maybe both.
01:03:23Yeah.
01:03:23And then I'd say, well, this is why your marriage is failing, because you're immature.
01:03:28Because you're immature.
01:03:29Because you can't handle a difficult conversation.
01:03:33This is why your marriage is failing, Dad.
01:03:35Because you're kind of a coward.
01:03:37And you're kind of bitchy.
01:03:39Sorry, no offense to you, Mom.
01:03:40But no, you're kind of bitchy, right?
01:03:42So, I'm giving you some tough questions.
01:03:45And you're getting all pissy, and you want to run away like a coward.
01:03:49Well, not like a coward.
01:03:50It is cowardly.
01:03:51You should be able to handle some questions from your kid, especially when you're kind
01:03:55of half-destroying your kid's life, right?
01:03:58So, this is why your marriage isn't failing, because you just mysteriously ran out of love.
01:04:04Your marriage is failing, because you run away from difficult conversations.
01:04:08You don't hold yourself accountable, and you gaslight.
01:04:11And you avoid, and you fog.
01:04:15And it's really wretched.
01:04:17It's really shameful.
01:04:18And listen, you can do all of that, Dad.
01:04:20I mean, you can do whatever you want.
01:04:21Obviously, you're the adult.
01:04:23I'm just a little kid, so you can do whatever you want.
01:04:25I get that.
01:04:26But I'll tell you this.
01:04:26There's a price to be paid for this.
01:04:29If you break up this family, I will pretty much have nothing but contempt for you for the
01:04:33rest of your life.
01:04:34And the rest of my life, too, if anyone asks me.
01:04:39After you're dead and gone, you say, what was your dad like?
01:04:42Oh, that little bitch?
01:04:43Yeah, selfish.
01:04:45Selfish, selfish.
01:04:46Immature.
01:04:48Cowardly.
01:04:49Runs away from difficult conversations with his eight-year-old little boy.
01:04:53Such a tough guy.
01:04:54Pathetic, really.
01:04:56Sad sack.
01:04:56Sad specimen.
01:04:58Sickly.
01:04:59Selfish.
01:05:01Soulless.
01:05:01I mean, that's what I will understand.
01:05:04So, yeah, listen.
01:05:06You're the adults, man.
01:05:08You do what you want.
01:05:10I mean, I'm going to make the case.
01:05:12But I'm just saying that the consequence is that I actually will hold both of you in contempt
01:05:17for the rest of my life.
01:05:18Because you're smashing up a family without even doing one little bit of work to try and
01:05:23keep it together.
01:05:25You show me the receipts from the couple's counselor.
01:05:27You show me the books that you've worked through together to try and figure out how to get along
01:05:31better.
01:05:32You show me the individual therapy bills and the receipts.
01:05:36Then I'll show you some respect.
01:05:38But you've done none of it.
01:05:40You lazy specimens.
01:05:42You're smashing up a family for nothing with no effort, no work.
01:05:47And you have the audacity to tell me I have to do things that I don't want.
01:05:51And sometimes I have to suck it up and do the right thing, even though it's hard.
01:05:55It's pitiful.
01:05:57And you're giving this mealy-mouthed bullshit, oh, we fell out of love.
01:06:01What are you, three years old?
01:06:03Figure out how to keep your love going, as you promised to almighty God that you would.
01:06:09Suck it up.
01:06:10Work it out.
01:06:11Deal with it.
01:06:13Because you're going to break the hearts of your children, you selfish, selfish people.
01:06:18What have you got to say for yourself?
01:06:21Huh?
01:06:22I don't know.
01:06:23Show me the receipts.
01:06:24Show me the receipts of all of the couples counseling and all the work you've put in.
01:06:28Show me.
01:06:29Take me to the priest.
01:06:30Let me talk to the priest.
01:06:31Because I'm sure you've gone to the priest to get advice on all of this.
01:06:33And did he say, yep, absolutely.
01:06:35Although there's nothing particular going wrong with the marriage.
01:06:38I mean, your balls are itching for someone else.
01:06:40So off you go.
01:06:42Show me.
01:06:42Show me how you've earned your way out of this marriage.
01:06:45And if there's nothing, you haven't tried everything.
01:06:47You haven't done everything.
01:06:50You haven't really done anything to try and sort this out.
01:06:55I'm unhappy.
01:06:56So what?
01:06:57I just don't have to do things when I'm unhappy?
01:06:59Is that the rule?
01:07:00I just don't have to do things?
01:07:01I'm, hey, I don't really want to do any dishes.
01:07:03That makes me unhappy.
01:07:05Oh no, you got to do the dishes.
01:07:07I don't really want to go to the dentist.
01:07:08You know, he scrapes my gums.
01:07:10I don't like it.
01:07:10Well, you got to go to the dentist.
01:07:11I don't want to go to the doctor.
01:07:12They stick with needles.
01:07:13You got to go to the doctor.
01:07:14Jesus, you're fucking hypocrites.
01:07:18Yeah.
01:07:20I don't know what he would say.
01:07:23There's no answer to that.
01:07:25Yeah, he would get very angry.
01:07:27Yeah.
01:07:28And he does certainly avoid those difficult conversations.
01:07:33Yeah, throughout his life, I think.
01:07:36And avoids, I think he avoids those difficult emotions as well.
01:07:43And I don't know if maybe I learned it from him, but.
01:07:49Well, I mean, you're just protecting your parents.
01:07:53And I understand that.
01:07:54I mean, as a kid, you had to.
01:07:55How old are you now?
01:07:5732.
01:07:5732.
01:07:59So you're just protecting your parents, because if you get angry at the casual manner in which
01:08:04your entire childhood was thrown into the wood chipper, if you get angry at that, and let's
01:08:10say you were to sit down with your parents and say, guys, I do not understand, like, what the
01:08:14hell happened with my childhood here?
01:08:16And also, they don't seem to have noticed that you kind of run on a bit of a monotone and
01:08:20don't have access
01:08:21to many emotions, right?
01:08:22So you're still protecting your parents, because if you get angry, they feel bad, right?
01:08:29Yeah.
01:08:30That 24 years ago, they made a mistake.
01:08:38They should have worked to fix the marriage.
01:08:40I mean, maybe they would have stayed together.
01:08:43Maybe they wouldn't have.
01:08:44Who knows?
01:08:45That's an alternate dimension timeline.
01:08:46Of course, if they bid the kind of people to work on the marriage properly, then they probably
01:08:53wouldn't have got divorced in the first place.
01:08:56So if you get angry, then your parents will be upset.
01:09:02How much contact are you in with your parents these days?
01:09:08Well, I'm working at my mom's house at the moment until I find another job for being here
01:09:15for, like, a couple of months.
01:09:17And my dad, I would maybe see him every couple of weeks, something like that.
01:09:24Yeah, so you're in very close contact.
01:09:26You're cheek by jowl, as they used to say in England.
01:09:28You're in very, very close contact with your parents.
01:09:31Yeah.
01:09:32So you're still protecting them.
01:09:35You're protecting them from the upset and the anger that you have at them, not just for
01:09:39things in the past.
01:09:41I mean, have they sat you down and said, you seem to be kind of down, or what's going on,
01:09:47or, you know, you don't seem to be very passionate, or we've noticed that there's something lacking
01:09:51in the way that you present.
01:09:52I mean, have they done anything like that?
01:09:56They did, but only when it got really, really bad.
01:09:59Um, so they essentially ignored it until it got to an extreme level, and then, and then
01:10:07they said something about it.
01:10:08And what did they say?
01:10:10And they kind of approached it, yeah, kind of like that.
01:10:14It was, um, how would you say it?
01:10:18But it was almost like a little bit passively, like, I guess, um, nothing to do with them.
01:10:26Like, um, yeah, I've noticed you're feeling quite down lately.
01:10:31Um, I don't know, do you want to talk about it?
01:10:33And I, like, they don't sort of say, um, the, you know, don't address, well, you know,
01:10:42maybe it's because of the divorce, or they don't sort of, they just sort of, um, yeah,
01:10:49take any responsibility, or are proactive in that sense.
01:10:54Um, and, yeah, I guess they got the feeling like it wouldn't really help talking to them
01:11:02much.
01:11:03Well, because they don't really want to know.
01:11:06Yeah.
01:11:07Yeah, exactly.
01:11:08Sure.
01:11:08Exactly.
01:11:09Sure.
01:11:10Yeah, so, I mean, they don't really want to know.
01:11:11Make any other excuse for it.
01:11:12Yeah, they want to make any other excuse for it.
01:11:16And, um, because, yeah, I was actually very, well, quite depressed when I was around, like,
01:11:25around 18 to 21.
01:11:28Um, and, yeah, they wanted me to go on antidepressants.
01:11:34They want to blame it on brain chemistry.
01:11:38There's just an imbalance, you know.
01:11:41Sure.
01:11:42Everybody does, right?
01:11:44Yeah, of course.
01:11:44As if it's just a mystery, you know, nothing to do with something that's happened, you know.
01:11:49They, they don't want, want to be blamed for it.
01:11:53Sure.
01:11:53I get that.
01:11:54Yeah, no, I mean, if I'd, if I'd really hurt someone, I would like to pretend that a pill
01:11:59is the problem, or a pill is the solution, too.
01:12:02Nothing to do with me.
01:12:03It's just, you know, brain chemistry.
01:12:06Sure.
01:12:07That's very convenient.
01:12:09Yeah.
01:12:10Um, but yeah, I guess the other thing, since I don't want to, well, want to get to this,
01:12:17so my, yeah, I have been, yeah, had, had some conversations with my dad to try and understand
01:12:24some of these things, and try and get an answer, and maybe there's been, you know, small little
01:12:31bits here and there, but he, he wouldn't, um, you know, he, yeah, a lot of it was some
01:12:39sort of bullshit answers, and, um, you know, it's not like he'd give a big apology or anything
01:12:46like that.
01:12:46Um, so I sort of think, is there anything more left to ask him?
01:12:51Is there any more information I could, uh, get out of him that would be useful?
01:12:57And then the other thing is, um, I have two half-siblings, um, on my dad's side, and, like,
01:13:07I mean, I have thought, yeah, if I just stopped seeing my dad, then that, maybe that's positive
01:13:16in, in some ways, but then now I can, uh, yeah, I don't know how I'd explain it to them,
01:13:22or would I explain it to them?
01:13:24Like, it would just be a, I don't know how to deal with it because of that.
01:13:28Yeah, if it was just him and his wife, then I feel like I could, could more easily distance
01:13:37myself, but, um, yeah, I think that's, yeah, I don't know how to deal with that.
01:13:43So, yeah, two questions there.
01:13:45Is there anything more, like, more information I could give for my dad?
01:13:49I mean, hang on, sorry, just remind me, sorry, remind me of your dating situation.
01:13:53Um, well, I'm single, single for two years.
01:13:58So, what should your focus be on?
01:14:00Your parents, children, or something else?
01:14:05Yeah, it should be on getting my life going.
01:14:09I think so.
01:14:10I think so.
01:14:12I mean, it's, of course, it's good and nice for you to talk about your half-siblings and
01:14:19so on, but you, I think, have to get your own life going.
01:14:26Right.
01:14:26Um, but then they're going to, they would, if I, you know, wasn't to, to contact them
01:14:40anymore, then they're going to think, well, it's almost similar to the, um, to my dad's
01:14:47non-explanation of the divorce, of saying, you know, just fell out of love.
01:14:52Like, if I just sort of didn't say anything, then they're not going to think, well, what
01:14:57the fuck happened here?
01:14:59Um, sorry, when have I said, when have I said that you should have nothing to do with your
01:15:03parents?
01:15:05I'm not saying that you said that, but if that was what I did.
01:15:09Okay, but why are you talking about, I mean, why are you talking about if you just, what,
01:15:15ghosted them?
01:15:16Well, I guess, well, yeah, that's what I was thinking.
01:15:20I don't know.
01:15:20I don't know the, what to, how to proceed.
01:15:24Like, if my dad's not going to, if he's not going to give me any answers, um, he's not
01:15:31going to apologize.
01:15:33Then what, like, is there much point talking to him?
01:15:37Well, how do you know?
01:15:38I mean, surely you can, if you approach it, obviously I was talking a bit aggressively
01:15:44because you're having problems with your temper, right?
01:15:48But if you were to approach your father more gently and with more curiosity to try to find
01:15:58out what happened with your childhood, I mean, would he absolutely refuse to talk about it?
01:16:03Well, yeah, if you sort of said, well, I don't quite understand why you, a mom, like I said,
01:16:08you could say, I'm kind of nervous about, about getting married and all, because, you
01:16:13know, you said you, I remember you very clearly, you're saying like, you just fell out of love.
01:16:16It's kind of alarming, right?
01:16:17It could get a life together, go on with someone, and then just fall out of love.
01:16:21That's kind of terrifying.
01:16:22And would he be someone who wouldn't give you the answer?
01:16:29He wouldn't talk about it.
01:16:30He wouldn't help you out that way.
01:16:32I think he would have the conversation, but somewhat reluctantly.
01:16:40And when I've had, you know, talk to him about things of this nature, I, yeah, I think
01:16:50I do need a bit more of the, a bit more of the anger and a bit more just calling
01:16:57him out
01:16:58when he gives me a bullshit answer, but I, I have this overwhelming sadness.
01:17:03Um, and I know, yeah, I should.
01:17:07No, but sadness is the, sadness, hang on, sadness is the acceptable form of anger.
01:17:11So, you know, whenever there's some horrible murder or something like that, particularly
01:17:15from a migrant community, what do they always say?
01:17:17Oh, this terrible tragedy, this tragedy, right?
01:17:19So, they're trying to reprogram you to sadness rather than to anger.
01:17:22So, anger is the masculine form of sadness.
01:17:27Because if somebody makes us sad, like, you know, if somebody, uh, kills your dog, like
01:17:33on purpose, right?
01:17:34Then you're sad that your dog is gone and you're angry that someone killed your dog, right?
01:17:39And so, sadness is focusing on your loss.
01:17:43Anger is focusing on who stole from you, if that makes sense.
01:17:50So, I think that you're, and I, yeah, I heard it in your voice over the course of this call
01:17:54that you're relatively, you're more, relatively more comfortable with sadness than you are
01:17:59with anger.
01:18:00Yeah.
01:18:01And that's because it seems to me most selfish people are okay as long as you appease them.
01:18:06But if you propose, if you provoke them, they lash out.
01:18:12They indulge in temper.
01:18:13It's a way of guarding their selfishness as they attack those who get angry at them.
01:18:19Or another way of putting it is that selfish people are quite happy to get angry at you,
01:18:27but you can't get angry at them, right?
01:18:31Yeah.
01:18:31I, and I understand it intellectually, but it's hard to actually do it.
01:18:38Sorry, what do you mean?
01:18:39It's hard to do what?
01:18:41Like, I could, I can understand intellectually, like, yeah, I'm scared to express anger towards
01:18:48my dad, but, and more comfortable with the sadness, but I don't know how to do it.
01:18:54Sorry, hang on, hang on.
01:18:55It's not you.
01:18:56This is the separation between you and your father that's necessary for true adulthood
01:19:01to land on your shoulders.
01:19:03It's not you.
01:19:06Your father doesn't want you getting angry at him.
01:19:11It's not you who doesn't want to get angry at your father.
01:19:14And it's not you who's scared about getting angry with your father.
01:19:18It's your father who's scared about you getting angry with him and your mother.
01:19:23And it's their fear, not yours, that you're processing.
01:19:28It is your parents who don't want you to feel.
01:19:32It is not you who doesn't want to feel.
01:19:35And because your parents had all the power, if your parents said, don't feel, then you,
01:19:40like I, like everyone, as a child, we obey our parents.
01:19:45And if your parents said, you don't feel, you suppress your feelings, because we all
01:19:52have to survive, right?
01:19:54And so this is not your fear.
01:19:57This is not like, oh, I can't get in touch with my feelings.
01:20:00I am so distant from my feelings.
01:20:01I repress my feelings.
01:20:03I mean, I get that it's internalized, right?
01:20:04I understand that.
01:20:06But it is your father and your mother and perhaps extended family too, since they're all
01:20:12kind of responsible for how you were raised.
01:20:14They are the ones who don't want you getting angry.
01:20:19And they will, of course, punish and bribe and threaten and ghost and withdraw and manipulate
01:20:25to avoid your anger.
01:20:26Of course.
01:20:27Sure.
01:20:28I mean, the rabbit avoids with every twist and turn the predator, so to speak.
01:20:34And they don't want to look back upon their lives and say, we have made very bad decisions
01:20:40that we can't undo.
01:20:43I mean, that's pretty, that's really tough for people.
01:20:45This is why it's kind of important to not make bad decisions as a whole, or at least
01:20:49try and correct them as soon as possible.
01:20:50Because if you make bad decisions for too long, all you can ever do is rage against the
01:20:55truth tellers and threaten and, right?
01:20:58And because your emotions, when you're around your parents, your emotions obey the commandment,
01:21:04thou shalt not feel.
01:21:05Well, then you can't have a lot of joy, you can't have spontaneity, you can't have healthy
01:21:11anger, you can't fall in love, and you're going to lack the lively charisma of a fluid
01:21:18and expressive relationship with emotions.
01:21:22Because love is an emotion.
01:21:23Ambition is an emotion.
01:21:24Without emotions, it's very hard to do much of import and substance in life.
01:21:30So the more, the more I'm around my, because, right.
01:21:34So yeah, the more I'm around my parents, the more.
01:21:36Sorry, not the more you're around.
01:21:37I've got to be relatively rapid.
01:21:38I have another call coming up.
01:21:39So it's not when you're around your parents.
01:21:42It's when you're around your parents and aren't honest.
01:21:45That's the killer combo.
01:21:46You can be around your parents and you can be honest.
01:21:50And you can say, guys, do you not notice I have a tough time feeling?
01:21:53Did you not notice that that showed up around the divorce?
01:21:56Oh, what are you bringing up that ancient history for?
01:21:59They'll try and make you feel like, oh, you're stuck in the past.
01:22:01You've got to let it go.
01:22:02I can't believe you're 24 years ago.
01:22:04Who cares?
01:22:04Like, of course, they'll try and diminish it and all of that.
01:22:06That's just cruel.
01:22:08If it matters to your kid, it matters to you as a parent.
01:22:12Yeah.
01:22:12Um, yeah, I, yeah, I've got to be honest with them.
01:22:18Um, like, would it, I don't know what the, the practical way to actually approach it.
01:22:26Um, because I do, yeah, like I said, I struggle with confronting them with the truth.
01:22:35Um, like, do I need to practice it in my mind beforehand?
01:22:42I don't, I don't know.
01:22:43I don't know the, I don't know how to tell you to be, to be honest.
01:22:47You know, it's like, I can teach you how to negotiate for your wages.
01:22:50I can't tell you exactly how much you're worth.
01:22:52Right.
01:22:53So I can't teach you how to be honest.
01:22:54I can say, you know, you could say, you know, I've really been thinking about my childhood a lot lately.
01:22:58And I think I've been struggling with my emotions since the divorce.
01:23:01And I know that seems like a long time ago, but I'd like to talk about that and try and
01:23:04sort of puzzle out what might be going on.
01:23:07I mean, that's perfectly reasonable thing to say, isn't it?
01:23:10Okay.
01:23:11Okay.
01:23:11Yeah.
01:23:12Yeah.
01:23:12And if your parents don't want to talk about it, say, no, look, it's like, I really need you to
01:23:16do it.
01:23:16Like, it's really important to me.
01:23:18You know, I haven't been in a relationship for two years.
01:23:20I'm in trouble finding work.
01:23:21There's something not working in my life.
01:23:22And of course, I'm not saying it's all the divorce or anything like that.
01:23:25But if I had to sort of think about before and after that, I felt strongly, I think the divorce
01:23:30had a lot to do with it.
01:23:33So I would just, I really do need to talk about this.
01:23:36And, you know, thank you guys so much.
01:23:38You know, we've got time, right?
01:23:39We've got time.
01:23:40We've got all weekend or whatever.
01:23:41Like, I would really like to talk about this stuff.
01:23:43I think it's really, I don't think we talk about important things as a family enough.
01:23:47I think we just kind of go about our day and do our little things and pay our bills and
01:23:52watch some TV.
01:23:52And I think that we really should sit down and talk about some important things because there have been some
01:23:57very important things that have gone on in the family that I just don't think we're really processing much or
01:24:06having any conversations about.
01:24:08And I feel like I'm just kind of drifting, if that makes sense.
01:24:11You don't have to be yelling at people, right, or whatever.
01:24:13I mean, just be honest.
01:24:14And, you know, if they piss you off, you can say it was kind of pissing me off.
01:24:17I mean, I don't know if you've read my book, Real-Time Relationships, but it talks about how to express
01:24:22yourself honestly in the moment without attacking people.
01:24:26Okay, I should read that.
01:24:27I think so.
01:24:28I think so.
01:24:29I think so.
01:24:31Yeah.
01:24:32Yeah, I guess it's something I have to practice.
01:24:35Sure.
01:24:35Yeah, for sure.
01:24:36You can journal it.
01:24:37You can practice it.
01:24:38Talk therapy might help as well.
01:24:40Yeah.
01:24:42I mean, I did do some talk therapy and sort of helped a little bit, but sometimes, you know, I,
01:24:49well, I feel like this call was a lot more getting to the root of things than a lot of
01:24:56what the talk therapy did, to be honest.
01:24:59Yeah, and don't prejudge your emotions as to whether they're rational or not.
01:25:03Oh, that's too strong a feeling.
01:25:04That's too less.
01:25:05We don't know.
01:25:06It's like trying to tell your immune system what it should or shouldn't be bothered by.
01:25:10It's like, you know, just your immune system.
01:25:11I mean, unless there's something really wrong, it's there to do its job and so on.
01:25:16And I don't try to tell my stomach how much acid it needs to dissolve certain things and extract the
01:25:21nutrients.
01:25:21I don't know.
01:25:22It does its thing.
01:25:23It's the same thing with anger.
01:25:24I don't prejudge my anger as too strong or just right or too little because that's just a way of
01:25:30fencing it in and not letting it do its thing.
01:25:32It's like having a guard dog and then keeping it in a full body cast.
01:25:36It doesn't really do much good as a guard dog in that sense.
01:25:38You've got to let it run free a little, right?
01:25:41Yeah.
01:25:41Yeah.
01:25:42Yeah.
01:25:43No.
01:25:43Okay.
01:25:44Don't judge the emotions that tell us things, right?
01:25:49Yeah.
01:25:50Absolutely.
01:25:51Absolutely.
01:25:51All right, brother.
01:25:52I got a boogie and I hope that you'll stay in touch.
01:25:55I really do appreciate the conversation and please let me know how it goes.
01:25:59Okay.
01:25:59Thank you very much, Stefan, for your time.
01:26:02You're very welcome, man.
01:26:03Take care.
01:26:04Bye.
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