00:00Thank you. All right, moving on to the foreign arrangement scheme. I have questions about a
00:05specific MOU registered under the scheme. It's between Charles Sturt University and the Hong
00:11Kong Police College. It was signed in 2018 for a five-year period, so it's possible that it has
00:20been lapsed. It's also possible it has been extended, but the register has not yet been updated.
00:26Is there any official at the table who's familiar with that particular arrangement?
00:31Can you just give us a minute, Senator? Sorry, Senator, part of my problem is,
00:35I know I have an answer for you, not specifically about the lapsing part, but about that particular
00:45MOU. If you'd just give me a moment to find it. But your question was about the lapsing.
00:51I mean, from our perspective, things are registered when they're notified to us,
00:56when they go through the process. We register them on the public register,
00:59and specific questions about whether or not they have lapsed are really ones for
01:03the institutions involved. The date of the arrangement commenced was 18 July 2018,
01:11so theoretically it should have lapsed on 18 July 2023, which has passed, unless it was extended.
01:18Are you able to take on notice whether or not Charles Sturt University has updated you about
01:24this arrangement? I can take on notice whether they've updated us, but questions about the
01:28current status of the arrangement, of course, need to go to Charles Sturt.
01:31Because if the arrangement had been extended, but they had not notified you,
01:36they're potentially in breach of the foreign arrangement scheme, aren't they?
01:40Could you ask the question in a different way? The official can't really be asked to answer that.
01:45Okay, I won't ask about this specific instance. Is there an obligation?
01:48It is a requirement under the Act, isn't it, that signatories to foreign arrangements keep the
01:55department updated about their current status?
01:58The requirement is to notify us of arrangements, at which point we consider them in accordance with
02:04the scheme and we publish them in accordance with the scheme. It would be a question,
02:11we probably they would need to let us know if it was extended or renewed, but the fact is it
02:17continues
02:18to be a scheme that's in existence and it's already been considered.
02:21Yes, thank you. There was another similar scheme at Griffith University with the Yunnan Police
02:27College in the PRC. The reason why this emerged is that it was discovered in estimates this week
02:38that there is an arrangement between the AFP College and Hong Kong Police for ongoing training.
02:44I won't ask you about that scheme, but Minister, do you have a view, given the conduct that we've
02:49observed from Hong Kong Police in recent years in the way in which they've been used to suppress
02:54pro-democracy activists, opposition politicians, unionists, journalists and others, whether or not
03:01it is in Australia's national interest for an Australian university to continue to train Hong Kong police?
03:13Senator, we keep a close eye on developments in Hong Kong. We look carefully at the range of
03:26agreements between Hong Kong and the Australian agencies and we keep them under constant review.
03:36My question was more directed to the Minister. Do you think it's in our national interest for
03:43Australian universities to be training Hong Kong police, given what we've seen of them in recent
03:47years, most recently the issuing of bounties against the head of an Australian citizen and an
03:53Australian permanent resident? Well, in relation to the second part of the question, I understand,
03:58although I didn't see it, that you asked questions of the Australian Federal Police this week and they
04:05outlined the reasons for their cooperation with Hong Kong. To be fair to them, it was about their
04:13cooperation with China and it was focused more on law enforcement, not specifically training and not
04:18law enforcement. I know there are law enforcement reasons why the police do that. On the broader
04:25question, I've made many public comments in relation to the warrants for Australians at the time and
04:34subsequently, we believe that the issuing of warrants for democracy advocates, including those in
04:41Australia, is not acceptable. We have again reiterated the same position that we have in relation to
04:49many such matters, which is Australia is a democracy. We value freedom of speech, freedom of expression,
04:57freedom of assembly, and we will continue to support Australians who exercise those rights.
05:02Yes, and I recognise the statements that you have made on that, Prime Minister, and also the fact that
05:07you met with Kevin Yam and Ted Hui, who are the targets of those. That is why I'm asking this
05:14question. Given the stance that you have taken on that issue, given the strength of your condemnation
05:18of that, do you think it is in the national interest for an Australian university to train the police
05:23who are responsible for that? Well, I'd refer to the AFP's responses to you.
05:31Okay. I really think the AFP, to be fair to them, would not want to be seen to be defending
05:36this
05:36particular arrangement. Commissioner Kershaw was talking about other cooperation that they have
05:42with the Ministry of Public Security specifically, a mainland entity on international and transnational
05:49crime, not on specifically Hong Kong police? Well, it is, as I understand it, an arrangement the AFP is
06:03engaged in. No, I'm sorry. This is a separate issue. So Hong Kong police recently visited Australia. As
06:12part of their visit, they had a bilateral engagement with the AFP. They also went to the AFP training
06:17facility in Sydney. When I asked Commissioner Kershaw about that, he said he would look into that matter.
06:23Separately, he said that the AFP cooperates with the Ministry of Public Security in China on transnational
06:29criminal issues and that that was important. In my view, and I think the impression I got from AFP was
06:34they were two distinct issues. I'm also now asking you about an Australian university training Hong Kong
06:39police. Right. Well, I'm not quite sure which arrangement you're referring to. The one I have
06:49awareness of—well, the two are the cooperation in relation to transnational crimes and the cooperation
06:55in relation to training which programs the AFP have engaged in. But if there's anything further we
07:02can add, we'll come back to you. But otherwise, I'd refer you to that evidence. The other arrangement I'm
07:06asking you about is because you have responsibility for it under the foreign arrangement scheme,
07:11which is that an Australian university has registered a training arrangement with Hong Kong
07:16police. It's Charles Sturt University. It's an MOU on the register. And as foreign minister,
07:22you have the power to cancel or vary that agreement if you believe it's not in the national interest.
07:26So that's why I'm asking you about this. Well, we will see if there's anything further we can provide.
07:31But obviously, such an arrangement would need to go through our foreign arrangements scheme. We have
07:41relevant processes as to whether it's consistent with our foreign policy. And that would be the
07:47framework that would apply to this or any other arrangement. Okay. Well, I encourage you to consider
07:52this particular arrangement. Thank you, Jay. Thank you. You're welcome.
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