- 16 hours ago
Documentary centers on the vending machine popularized in the 20th century that offered fresh cooked meals in a commissary-style eatery,
Horn and Hardart's iconic Automat, one of America's original and most popular restaurant chains in NYC and Philadelphia.
这是一次迷人而引人入胜的探访，带您领略美国最早、也最具特色的连锁餐厅之一, 纪录片旨在致敬曾经全美最大的连锁餐厅——尽管它仅在两座城市运营...
Horn and Hardart's iconic Automat, one of America's original and most popular restaurant chains in NYC and Philadelphia.
这是一次迷人而引人入胜的探访，带您领略美国最早、也最具特色的连锁餐厅之一, 纪录片旨在致敬曾经全美最大的连锁餐厅——尽管它仅在两座城市运营...
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:30documentary what are you trying to do with it? It's going to be a documentary trying to figure
00:00:33out what happened to the automat. How it began, how it blossomed, and how it ended, right? Yeah.
00:00:41The big thing is the nickels, the little windows, that's the big thing. It's the automat. You can
00:00:47drift a little to the good old time back then, but you've got to concentrate on the automat.
00:00:53Yes. I will, you know, I'm going to give you what I can in terms of time and effort, you
00:00:59know.
00:01:00And I'll try to write the song for the end, but let's get some other names, other people who
00:01:07remember and love the automat. It's important. Okay.
00:01:37Of course, when you say automat or horn and heart are it, very few people know what you're
00:01:43talking about. But one of the greatest inventions and insane centers of paradise were these places
00:01:54that had little glass windows framed in brass with knobs. And if you put two nickels into the slot next
00:02:04to the windows, the windows would open up. And you could take out a piece of lemon meringue pie for
00:02:1210
00:02:12cents. And you could eat it. And that was called the automat.
00:02:22I suggest you do some narration at the beginning to just to frame what you're going to talk about.
00:02:32You know, with pictures. You have enough pictures of automats?
00:02:38I didn't know we had all this. Where did you get all of these photos?
00:02:51Every time we built something, we always took a lot of pictures.
00:02:57Sure. But what possessed you? You're about 11. What made you even think about doing a show about the automat?
00:03:08Even though horn and heart are only operated in two cities in its day and for many decades,
00:03:14it was the largest restaurant chain in America by any measure. The number of restaurants it had,
00:03:19the number of people it served every day, the number of people it employed. It was a true phenomenon of
00:03:25its time.
00:03:26Well, how about the automat? I heard a lot about that place.
00:03:29It was what Philadelphia was all about. When you said Philadelphia, you said horn and heart. They were interchangeable.
00:03:36When you thought of the automat, you thought of New York and vice versa. It was a tourist destination on
00:03:42par with the Statue of Liberty.
00:03:45The little cubicles that the food would come out of.
00:03:50Allow me.
00:03:51I mean, I've never seen anything like it.
00:03:54It was the excitement, discovery, surprise and delight on my first visit as a young boy.
00:04:01That inspired me to think about the experience I wanted to create at Starbucks Coffee Company.
00:04:08Is there anything else that you want?
00:04:09Yes, I'd like another cup of coffee.
00:04:12At your service.
00:04:18I didn't realize how good it was until, like, there weren't no more automats tonight.
00:04:25I missed them.
00:04:27It might be. Where would you show this?
00:04:29There are film festivals all over.
00:04:32But do they show this kind of thing?
00:04:34It'd have to be over an hour for it to be a documentary in a theater, you know.
00:04:40Is there anybody alive from Horn and Audit?
00:04:45I'm standing at the corner of 3rd Avenue and 42nd Street.
00:04:50This location was the last automat that existed.
00:04:55Do you remember when the last automat closed?
00:04:58Oh, yes. I closed it. I'm going to close it.
00:05:03The automat closing, unfortunately, said something about the way that the world was going to be.
00:05:09They had been the most optimistic, imaginable places.
00:05:17But an original automat converted to a Burger King, this was exactly the opposite.
00:05:23I would like to give you a turn button from the very last automat.
00:05:33The employees were able to take pieces of remembrance.
00:05:39I loved the automat.
00:05:44Has anyone given you any indication of what their thoughts were as to why this all demise of the automat
00:05:51came about?
00:06:04Now, what do you want to know?
00:06:06What's your earliest memory of going to the automat?
00:06:09Well, I was born in 1926 in Williamsburg. That's Brooklyn.
00:06:16My brothers, Irving, firstborn, there in the back.
00:06:22Lenny, Bernie, and Melvin.
00:06:29We were little boys in Brooklyn.
00:06:33We were little boys in Brooklyn.
00:06:33But if you take the BMT and you go across the bridge, you can get into this paradise, this wonderland
00:06:41called New York.
00:06:43We never called it Manhattan, we called it New York.
00:06:46We were Brooklyn and they were New York.
00:06:50And we lived, all of us lived to get to New York so that we could visit the automat.
00:06:58There is a thin, I got a book home.
00:07:00There is one little book about the automat.
00:07:04All about starting in Philadelphia.
00:07:13So, who wants to do, probably you should, if she...
00:07:15Okay, I'll do, I'll do Horn, right, okay.
00:07:18Well, Joe Horn came from Philadelphia.
00:07:21His two brothers were in the restaurant business and he wanted a restaurant too.
00:07:26So, he goes on a cross-country trip all over the country to just sort of figure out the kind
00:07:31of restaurant he wanted.
00:07:34One day, he's in Boston and he goes to Thompson's Spa for lunch.
00:07:39And he sees the way the place is working and he sees these people being served coffee.
00:07:45The whole choreography that just enchanted him.
00:07:48And the bulb clicked in his head and he said, this is exactly the kind of place I want to
00:07:55open.
00:07:56So, he put an ad in the paper saying that he needed someone to co-partner with him.
00:08:03And enter Frank Hardart.
00:08:05My great grandfather, Frank Hardart, he spent his youth in New Orleans working in the kitchens of restaurants.
00:08:13At the time, New Orleans was the only city in the country that was making French pressed or French drip
00:08:20coffee.
00:08:22He understood how special it was.
00:08:24And he knew that once he got the rest of the country to taste it, they would appreciate it too.
00:08:30So, Frank came up to Philadelphia on this mission to get working in a restaurant and bring that coffee from
00:08:37New Orleans to the city of Brotherly Love.
00:08:40But he faced continual rejection until, as folklore has it, he saw an ad in a newspaper.
00:08:48And the rest was history.
00:08:49And the rest is history.
00:08:50And the rest is history.
00:08:50Exactly.
00:08:53They opened their first place at 39 South 13th Street, but they didn't have automats yet.
00:08:59Frank was in the back doing the cooking and Joe was out front tending to the customers.
00:09:05For Joe Horn, courtesy was the word.
00:09:10He was the one driving home how to create an environment that was all about treating people well.
00:09:16And Frank was focused on making sure that everyone got to taste that wonderful New Orleans coffee.
00:09:22And it worked.
00:09:24After a little while, they opened another restaurant and then another restaurant.
00:09:30Around the time, Horn and Hardart were opening their first restaurants in Philadelphia.
00:09:34The automatic restaurant was showing up in various parts of Northern Europe.
00:09:39These restaurants were basically dumbwaiter systems where you would order something in a dining room upstairs.
00:09:45And that order would be conveyed to people downstairs who would prepare the food and then send it up by
00:09:49a small dumbwaiter.
00:09:50Frank Hardart discovered this automat in Germany and arranged to import the entire automat along with some engineers to install
00:09:57it.
00:09:58In what was then the first automatic restaurant in America.
00:10:06So wait, you're an automat historian. How did you pick that for your PhD dissertation?
00:10:11That's not a...
00:10:15So that...
00:10:17I chose the automat as a topic.
00:10:19I was studying to become a historian of technology.
00:10:22I needed a topic for my dissertation.
00:10:23And I was in Amsterdam at the time when I stumbled across the automatique.
00:10:28That triggered this vague memory.
00:10:30Because my parents took me to one of this restaurant that I thought it had the same sort of machine.
00:10:35And when I returned, I started researching it only to discover that that wasn't just any restaurant.
00:10:41That was born in Hardart.
00:10:43And I had my chance to, like any other kid, choose from the dozens and dozens of boxes.
00:10:54This was the last automat, the fourth generation of that machine.
00:10:59The first generation was the one that Hardart himself brought back from Germany.
00:11:05What is in effect the first Horn & Hardart cafeteria was not really efficient.
00:11:13Fortunately, Horn & Hardart had a chief engineer named John Fritchie.
00:11:18Fritchie developed a lot of patents related to the automat technology.
00:11:22He introduced the fundamental innovation of the drum.
00:11:25He found ways to make them hold both hot and cold food.
00:11:29He changed the way the coin slots worked.
00:11:32Fritchie came up with the vending machine wall and all the little doors.
00:11:39America at this time had a real fascination with machine age technology.
00:11:42And anything that acted like that had a big attraction.
00:11:46And very quickly, Horn & Hardart's new automat was a success in Philadelphia.
00:11:55And the decision to expand to New York was an obvious one.
00:11:59It was the next really large industrial urban center.
00:12:04And that was the beginning of one of the most successful restaurant chains in America ever.
00:12:11My big brother Irving used to come at the beginning when I was very little.
00:12:16And he would dole out whatever it was, five nickels to each of us.
00:12:22That was our lunch, we had to figure out what we could get for that.
00:12:26Because we were poor, you know, no money.
00:12:30But that was the great thing about the automat.
00:12:33You didn't need a lot of money.
00:12:34You need a lot of nickels, but you didn't need a lot of money.
00:12:54And then don't have to figure out how to get for tech.
00:13:06And then we went to monthslot.
00:13:06It said the online store up over $80,000, man, and the only answer yet.
00:13:09Okay, Lisa Keller, take one.
00:13:12The question is, the automat hasn't been an active cultural force in decades,
00:13:17but it's something that still resonates with New Yorkers.
00:13:20And why is that?
00:13:22Horn and Hardard...
00:13:23Okay, let me start at the beginning.
00:13:29Horn and Hardard is a cultural icon in New York.
00:13:34In the immigration wave from 1880 to 1920,
00:13:38the immigrants who came to New York were looking for something American.
00:13:45And Horn and Hardard served as an Americanization process.
00:13:50If you could go there, you could feel like you were part of the larger American stream.
00:13:57Horn and Hardard, like the subways linked us,
00:14:00and were universally accessible.
00:14:04It didn't matter whether you were rich or poor.
00:14:06When you had to travel, you took a subway.
00:14:08When you had to eat, you went to the Horn and Hardard.
00:14:12We know you don't need English because nobody has to speak.
00:14:17In a land of foreigners, that became a place of identification.
00:14:22And you feel almost patriotic.
00:14:35At that same time, a new class of clientele started to come in the cities,
00:14:40drawn in by the new office work that was being created.
00:14:42They started flooding into cafeterias and into the automats.
00:14:47Women were just coming into the workforce.
00:14:50There were stenographers, there were sales clerks, they were secretaries.
00:14:54Between the 1880s and 1920 or so, the number of stenographers in New York City jumped from 5,000 to
00:15:01300,000.
00:15:03This enormous growth in the number of women in the workforce meant that there was enormous growth in the number
00:15:08of women who needed to eat lunch out of their homes.
00:15:11Well, I've had my lunch.
00:15:13Good!
00:15:13But I'll go with you.
00:15:15Not so good.
00:15:17Social custom was changing slowly.
00:15:20Women started being able to go out to eat on their own.
00:15:24And women of the 1920s went to Horn and Hardard.
00:15:28It was a place a woman would feel comfortable and safe, and they had good quality food.
00:15:33Yeah, and they didn't have to worry about tipping.
00:15:35That was the great thing about the automats.
00:15:38You never had to tip.
00:15:40It was a very important marriage between the time it came into being and the sensibilities of women in the
00:15:48workforce.
00:15:49At that point, Horn and Hardard in New York, which had been growing less quickly than Philadelphia, started growing very
00:15:55rapidly.
00:15:56And for long, there were a couple dozen of them throughout the city.
00:16:15I'll tell you, the Automat had panache. The ceilings were big.
00:16:23These were enormous buildings.
00:16:25Sometimes there was a half balcony.
00:16:28Grandiose design.
00:16:29The floors were pristine white marble.
00:16:32Brass frames on the little windows.
00:16:35Those little doors and those Carrara marble tables.
00:16:40When you looked at the interior, you felt that you could dance in them.
00:16:44And those dolphin spouts. Nowhere was there anything like that.
00:16:51When did the dolphin heads come about?
00:16:54Yeah, well, they were inspired by Italian fountains with mythological sea creatures.
00:17:00Joe Horn, on a trip to Italy, happened to spot these statues.
00:17:03It says, oh, that's going to be my coffee spout.
00:17:09So that's where they came from.
00:17:11But I love the fact that these two men, Joseph Horn and Frank Hardard, built this beautiful, beautiful space.
00:17:19All of that beauty so that someone could walk in there with a handful of nickels and get themselves a
00:17:26cup of coffee or some food.
00:17:35In 1918, through a twist of fate, just as the automat came into its own, Frank Hardard died.
00:17:47My great grandfather, Frank, left the company to his sons, Augustine and Frank, in New York City.
00:17:55So it stayed close in the family.
00:17:59But at that point, it had really become the hard arts in New York and the Horns in Philadelphia.
00:18:07Because Joe Horn did not want to come to New York.
00:18:11Joe Horn did not like New York.
00:18:17Mr. Horn was very much a Philadelphian.
00:18:20As a matter of fact, at the end of a long day in New York,
00:18:23he would look at everybody and say, thank God for the train to Philadelphia.
00:18:30My name is Edwin K. Daly Jr.
00:18:33I'm the son of the president of Horn and Hard Arts.
00:18:36Edwin K. Daly, who was president in New York from 1937 to 1960.
00:18:42On the phone, when you spoke of Joe Horn, you said you met him when you were young.
00:18:46I certainly met him 50 or 60 times.
00:18:50Be clear, though, that he was called Mr. Horn.
00:18:54Nobody within range of him referred to him as Joe Horn.
00:18:59He'd have clobbered somebody who did.
00:19:02Mr. Horn was a very formal man.
00:19:06Very genial, very pleasant, but very definitely commanding person.
00:19:12I always found him very nice.
00:19:17He certainly established the company's tradition of making certain that Horn and Hard Art was looking out for its employees.
00:19:25For Joe Horn, right from the start, loyalty was a trademark.
00:19:30Joseph Horn actually wanted his employees to bring their troubles to him.
00:19:35If he could help them in any way, he would.
00:19:38The Horns and the Hard Arts, they went to the wakes.
00:19:41They went to the weddings. They went to the funerals.
00:19:44They had holiday parties.
00:19:48You became a member of a family when you were employed at Horn and Hard Art.
00:19:53Joseph Horn started a foundation so that when his employees were short of money, missed a mortgage payment or anything
00:19:59like that, he was there to help them.
00:20:02And that inspired loyalty that went beyond one generation.
00:20:07That was the great strength of the company.
00:20:10People knew they were cared about.
00:20:25It was a stern woman with a red face and her hair piled up.
00:20:32And she had a little booth and the booth had wood and the wood was very smooth because she used
00:20:39it every day, changing dollars into nickels.
00:20:46And when my brother Irving gave her a dollar for all our nickels, she just reached behind her, didn't count
00:20:53the thing.
00:20:54She grabbed from her bag a bunch of nickels and it was always 20 nickels.
00:21:00She flipped and it was just magic, which thrilled me.
00:21:09I said, I wish I had something like that.
00:21:12One day I used to dream I would have a gift to stick my hand and come up with 20
00:21:18nickels.
00:21:24Look at that. We had a machine that counted the nickels.
00:21:28Oh, there you go.
00:21:31Cool. So you had to make sure all of that worked okay.
00:21:35Oh, yeah. It was money.
00:21:37Oh, wow.
00:21:38No.
00:21:45Oh, there you go. Up here.
00:21:49Remember that sign?
00:21:50I wasn't sure.
00:21:52Here's all your drums.
00:21:57How many years were you? 40 plus?
00:22:01Forty-four, 45.
00:22:03And that was 44.
00:22:05Yeah.
00:22:08My father was one of the first guys working for the company, Horn and Hardard.
00:22:12And I used to come to New York with him to help him out.
00:22:17So I learned a lot about the Horn and Hardard equipment and how it operated.
00:22:24There's the bag. See it?
00:22:26Yeah, yeah.
00:22:26How do you do that?
00:22:28I'm going to charge all those drums and stainless steel stuff.
00:22:31Look at that.
00:22:33In store.
00:22:33There's your coffee.
00:22:34Yeah.
00:22:35See it?
00:22:35Coming out of my dolphin head.
00:22:38I have one upstairs.
00:22:41There's my dolphin head.
00:22:43It's amazing, huh?
00:22:48You put a nickel into a kind of dolphin.
00:22:52And you put a cup underneath the dolphin head's mouth.
00:22:54And you push the dolphin's tail.
00:22:57There's a tube that comes out of the mouth that goes into the back to the machine.
00:23:02And coffee would come into a thick little cup.
00:23:05Very hot.
00:23:07Then right at the end, in an unseen little spigot, milk would come.
00:23:13And it would just be a perfect cup of coffee.
00:23:16It was a very tasty coffee.
00:23:19I've been to Paris.
00:23:20I've been to Vienna.
00:23:21I've paid $35 for a cup of coffee.
00:23:25Not half as good as that nickel Horn and Harder coffee.
00:23:30And if I could save enough nickels, I could have two cups.
00:23:40There's the back. See it?
00:23:41Yeah.
00:23:42How do you do that?
00:23:42Yeah, I've got you.
00:23:43It was my responsibility if any machine broke, those machines got to operate right away.
00:23:49And there's a lot of machines.
00:23:54These things were made incredibly solidly.
00:23:58Some of them were made out of solid brass.
00:24:00Some of them were made out of solid nickel.
00:24:03I was an architectural dealer in New York City.
00:24:06And one day, a scrap dealer pulled up his van.
00:24:10And he said, take a look at this.
00:24:14Are you interested in this stuff?
00:24:16And it was the automats.
00:24:18And he had already taken them to all the architectural dealers.
00:24:21And some of them bought one.
00:24:23I told him I'd take them all.
00:24:27So I was restoring these machines.
00:24:30I had six of them in my window.
00:24:32And on a daily basis, somebody would walk into my shop with their jaw hanging down, asking,
00:24:39Is that what I think it is?
00:24:41Is that the automat?
00:24:43And so many of them had such strong feelings.
00:24:46I began to look into the history as deeply as I could.
00:24:52And my responsibility, I think, about the automat has more to do with the concept of the automat than it
00:25:00does the machines themselves.
00:25:03It started with a set of principles.
00:25:06Mr. Horne and Mr. Hardart said, you can do something the right way.
00:25:11You don't have to compromise.
00:25:14It's harder that way.
00:25:16It's more work.
00:25:18But you can do it.
00:25:19And you ought to do it.
00:25:22That's what they said.
00:25:24And then they proved it by doing it.
00:25:32Around the turn of the century, Horne and Hardart were already operating a small chain of stores vending mostly baked
00:25:38goods.
00:25:40The problem they had was that each store was making its own baked goods, and they didn't have the consistency
00:25:44and the high level of quality they wanted from one store to the other.
00:25:48This is what drove them to start on the commissary model, the centralization of the food preparation for the entire
00:25:55system.
00:25:57Oh, the Horne and Hardart Bakery.
00:25:59You remember the bakery, Dad.
00:26:01That's where all the food came from.
00:26:06Not all.
00:26:07Let's be clear on that.
00:26:09There was cooking in the restaurants.
00:26:11But a great deal of the food was prepared, and all of the baked goods, of course, and a central
00:26:17commissary.
00:26:18With their commissary, they could make 2,400 pies an hour.
00:26:24And what Horne and Hardart realized was, if you did something on a large enough scale, you could give people
00:26:30prices they could afford.
00:26:33But be clear that it was all about quality.
00:26:36They had the sample table every day, in which the management tasted the food that was coming out of the
00:26:43bakery, to make sure that the public was getting what the public was supposed to be getting.
00:26:48The trucks supplying the restaurants numbered in the hundreds in each city and drove something like 2,000 miles a
00:26:54day.
00:26:54So everything was fresh, and seasonal was real.
00:26:58Seasonal was important, because that's also the way they kept the costs down, because they could buy seasonal in bulk.
00:27:05And that's why, if you didn't have the commissaries, you wouldn't have a Horne and Hardart automat.
00:27:15While the 1930s brought the Great Depression, which was damaging to almost every business, Horne and Hardart was a notable
00:27:22exception.
00:27:30The automat was a welcoming, warm place in the worst of times.
00:27:35It appealed to the poor and downtrodden, because for a nickel you could get a lot.
00:27:41We were providing good, cheap, quality food when people didn't have a whole lot of money in their pockets.
00:27:48Because of its economies of scale, because of its ability to tap into these values of thrift and abundance,
00:27:55Horne and Hardart's restaurants became a beacon in light in what was otherwise a really dark decade.
00:28:00Irving Berlin captured this by having the Vanderbilts and others of the very rich dining in the automat.
00:28:07Irving Berlin faced the music, and the great song that came from that was,
00:28:13Let's have another cup of coffee, and let's have another piece of pie.
00:28:19Going back to theannahs
00:28:45supremacist music,
00:28:49There was a unionizing campaign at that time, which involved some hard-and-hard-out employees.
00:28:55It was quite violent.
00:29:05In the end, it didn't work. That's the simplest way I can put it.
00:29:10Our employees stood by us.
00:29:12They were loyal to the company. The company had been loyal to them.
00:29:28By 1941, Mr. Horn had been ill for quite some time.
00:29:34It was very clear he was going to die the day before he died.
00:29:39Mr. Horn said, look, I know I'm going to die. Get me a horn and hard-eat beef pie.
00:29:43I want to eat that. And he did.
00:29:46It helped him die happy.
00:29:51Mr. Horn had no children, no successors, but he had been very careful to groom one man to take over
00:29:57in his place.
00:29:59My father understood financial matters. He had the training. He had a broad vision.
00:30:04He was intensely loyal to the company, and Mr. Horn knew that.
00:30:08When Daley took over from Horn after his death in 1941,
00:30:13the Horn and Hardark Company expanded even faster than they had previously.
00:30:28This was a period with a great deal of growth.
00:30:32As a matter of fact, during the Second World War,
00:30:35Horn and Hardark supplied the food on the troop ships.
00:30:37So when the Queen Elizabeth or the Queen Mary went out of New York carrying troops,
00:30:43they were eating Horn and Hardark food.
00:30:48The 1940s and early 50s was Horn and Hardark at its finest.
00:30:53In 1953, the company served 2,206,000 beef pies,
00:30:591,427,000 chicken pies,
00:31:0210,652,000 dessert pies,
00:31:053,388,000 hamburgers,
00:31:084,886,000 chopped sirloins,
00:31:116,527,000 loaves of bread,
00:31:143,314,000 gallons of baked beans
00:31:17and 2,355,000 pounds of macaronis.
00:31:21That's a lot of food.
00:31:23And we were feeding 800,000 people a day.
00:31:27At this time, in terms of the volume of business that they were doing,
00:31:31in terms of the number of seats and the number of people who were being served,
00:31:34there wasn't anything to compare with the Horn and Hardark automat.
00:31:43Looks pretty fancy, Fred.
00:31:44Hey, you get your food by putting coins in a slot.
00:31:50Hey, got a nickel, Mac?
00:31:52Huh? Oh, yeah.
00:31:53Thanks.
00:32:02On Saturdays, I took piano lessons on West 73rd Street.
00:32:09And on 72nd Street was an automat.
00:32:13I could usually find a table upstairs
00:32:16where I could read a book or do homework while eating lunch.
00:32:23You found just the right one.
00:32:27So the hot table is back here.
00:32:31On the side, these are all the cubby holes with cakes and pastries.
00:32:37And these are the dispensers of coffee, tea, hot chocolate.
00:32:45When I ask people about the automat,
00:32:48they light up and I'm just wondering,
00:32:51why do you think people love the automat so much and remember it so fondly?
00:32:57It was a good place to eat.
00:32:59The food was delicious.
00:33:01The prices were right.
00:33:05But more than that,
00:33:07I think it was the fact that there were all kinds of people,
00:33:13from poor people to matrons and furs.
00:33:19You were sitting at a table with a bunch of people,
00:33:22one of whom might be a businessman,
00:33:25another person might be a worker,
00:33:26another person might be an artist.
00:33:28It was an unspoken rule that if there was no empty table,
00:33:33you could sit next to anybody who was already eating.
00:33:37It was true, you'd see at a table, you'd see a bum with an empty cup of coffee,
00:33:42somebody had left,
00:33:44he'd get some hot water,
00:33:45he'd put some mustard and ketchup in it,
00:33:48and you'd have like a condiment soup.
00:33:51There is no question that the company's policy
00:33:54was distinctly serve everybody
00:33:56and serve everybody the same way.
00:34:01It was revolutionary in a way,
00:34:05very democratic.
00:34:08This was a remarkable place,
00:34:11an amazingly optimistic view
00:34:13of what the future could be.
00:34:16It said there's enough for everybody.
00:34:20And it had certain cultural markers
00:34:23that made it a truly American place,
00:34:26ironically, for a non-American audience.
00:34:31Yes.
00:34:32This is the great USA
00:34:34with people of all different colors
00:34:38and religions
00:34:39and manner of dress.
00:34:43And yet,
00:34:44we are all together.
00:34:51The one we would usually go to
00:34:53is the automat that was in 42nd Street.
00:34:55I never even thought about the fact
00:34:57that I'm a black kid,
00:34:58should I go into Hornethearted?
00:35:00Is it okay to go to the automat?
00:35:02All the automats
00:35:03had that beautiful diversity
00:35:04that didn't exist
00:35:05in most of the rest of the country.
00:35:07Of economic standing,
00:35:08of color,
00:35:10of ethnicity,
00:35:10of language.
00:35:12You never know what you'd run into
00:35:13in an automat.
00:35:16Can I adjust your tie a little
00:35:18to cover your button?
00:35:20May I?
00:35:21Sure.
00:35:22Okay.
00:35:23You keep scaring me.
00:35:26What's wrong with the button?
00:35:27I mean, is it...
00:35:28Oh, no, no, no,
00:35:28there's nothing wrong with it.
00:35:29Mel Brooks is there
00:35:29looking like a bum in a...
00:35:32What is that?
00:35:34There was just a little lint.
00:35:35Cake?
00:35:35I just wasn't...
00:35:36I don't know.
00:35:36Are you making cake?
00:35:37Yeah, I just came from juniors.
00:35:42Come on.
00:35:43I've got a Colombian ambassador
00:35:44waiting for me.
00:35:49You gotta get a still of this.
00:35:52This photo was taken
00:35:53when I was about seven years old,
00:35:55living in the South Bronx,
00:35:57immigrant family,
00:35:57not making a great deal of money.
00:35:59So you have to understand,
00:36:01we almost never went to a restaurant.
00:36:03I don't ever remember
00:36:04going to a restaurant
00:36:05anywhere in the South Bronx.
00:36:06We always ate at home
00:36:07or with a relative.
00:36:10So going to an automat
00:36:12was not just the experience
00:36:14of seeing this mechanized
00:36:15food delivery system.
00:36:17It was going to a restaurant.
00:36:19And as a kid,
00:36:20it was such a thrill
00:36:22to walk into this place.
00:36:24Sparkling.
00:36:25It shone.
00:36:26I mean, it literally blasted you
00:36:28with the marble
00:36:29and the tables that were marble.
00:36:32And there it is,
00:36:34this wall
00:36:35of little compartments
00:36:37and the beautiful chrome-rimmed knobs.
00:36:41And you knew there was somebody
00:36:43behind those little compartments.
00:36:45You never saw them,
00:36:46but you knew they had to be there.
00:36:49And better than that,
00:36:50the food was good.
00:36:53Automat was where I learned
00:36:55to like creamed spinach,
00:36:57macaroni and cheese.
00:37:00Automat food became so recognizable,
00:37:03particularly the signature dishes.
00:37:05There's baked beans and baked beans,
00:37:07and then there's
00:37:08Horn and Hardest baked beans.
00:37:10I really got excited
00:37:12about a Salisbury steak.
00:37:14Don't tell my mother this.
00:37:15I like the ham and cheese sandwich
00:37:17with mustard.
00:37:19I think there was an olive
00:37:20stuck in it.
00:37:21It was great.
00:37:22I don't know what Carl ate
00:37:23at the automatically.
00:37:23Did you ask him?
00:37:24But he had.
00:37:25It always consisted
00:37:26of the same thing,
00:37:27a ham and cheese sandwich,
00:37:29a cup of very good coffee.
00:37:32Carl, who's much more frugal,
00:37:35cheap.
00:37:36Cheaper than I am.
00:37:38It was cheap,
00:37:39very cheap.
00:37:40Eggs, bacon,
00:37:43chicken salad.
00:37:44I love the creamed spinach
00:37:47and succotash
00:37:49and the sweet things.
00:37:52One part mashed potatoes,
00:37:54one part baked beans,
00:37:55and one part Salisbury steak.
00:37:57And you've gone to heaven
00:37:58without dying.
00:38:02For my family,
00:38:03it wasn't just the Automat.
00:38:04It was Horn and Hardest
00:38:05because there was also
00:38:06a retail store
00:38:07in my neighborhood.
00:38:08And on the weekends,
00:38:10on Saturday,
00:38:11I would usually get
00:38:12a couple of dollars
00:38:13and I was told,
00:38:13go get a Horn and Harded
00:38:15apple pie.
00:38:16And that was the height
00:38:18of the week's experience.
00:38:21Can you describe the presence
00:38:23of the retail stores here?
00:38:24The concept of the retail stores
00:38:25is very simple.
00:38:26The idea was
00:38:27we would sell our food
00:38:28so that it could be taken home.
00:38:32And it was a very successful move.
00:38:36The slogan was
00:38:37less work for mother.
00:38:39Less work for mother retail shops.
00:38:43Everything was fresh.
00:38:45Everything was made to order.
00:38:47It's breathtaking.
00:38:49But they also sponsored
00:38:51a television show
00:38:52that was on Sundays
00:38:55called the Children's Hour.
00:38:57Good morning
00:38:58and welcome
00:38:58to the famous
00:38:59Sunday morning Children's Hour.
00:39:01Ed Herlihy
00:39:02was the announcer.
00:39:03Presented by
00:39:04Horn and Hardart
00:39:04Automat Cafeteria
00:39:05and less work for mother
00:39:06retail shops.
00:39:07Today as every Sunday morning
00:39:09for over 26 years,
00:39:11the Children's Hour
00:39:12brings you New York's
00:39:12most talented children.
00:39:14I had been a child performer
00:39:17and I knew some of the kids.
00:39:18They could do things
00:39:19I couldn't even dream of doing.
00:39:22You belong to my heart.
00:39:25They auditioned hundreds
00:39:27of children every month.
00:39:31You'd be surprised
00:39:33how many people
00:39:34got their start
00:39:35on the Children's Hour.
00:39:36Rosemary Clooney,
00:39:38Eddie Fisher,
00:39:39Leslie Uggams,
00:39:41Arnold Stang,
00:39:43Frankie Avalon,
00:39:44Bernadette Peters,
00:39:46Gregory Hines,
00:39:47Madeline Kahn.
00:39:49No kidding.
00:39:50She never mentioned that.
00:39:52You know,
00:39:53she was in a lot
00:39:53of my movies
00:39:54like Blazing Saddles,
00:39:57Young Frankenstein
00:39:58and many others.
00:40:01And of course,
00:40:02she would come
00:40:03to the automat.
00:40:04This portion
00:40:05of the Children's Hour
00:40:06has been brought to you
00:40:06by Horn & Hardart
00:40:07automat cafeterias
00:40:08and less work
00:40:09for mother retail shops.
00:40:10Complete meals
00:40:11with less work
00:40:12for mother.
00:40:20Carl,
00:40:20even though he was like
00:40:22co-starring
00:40:23with Sid Caesar
00:40:24on the show of shows,
00:40:26when he came in
00:40:27for rehearsals,
00:40:28he'd been at the automat
00:40:30having his breakfast.
00:40:32Every morning
00:40:33at 9.30,
00:40:34I had my breakfast.
00:40:35I was there
00:40:35for a half hour
00:40:36because I had to get
00:40:37to work 10 o'clock.
00:40:39Mel was one of these guys
00:40:41who couldn't get
00:40:41to work on time,
00:40:43so he never had breakfast
00:40:44at the automat.
00:40:45I don't remember
00:40:46there ever being
00:40:46breakfast at the automat.
00:40:48I don't remember
00:40:48there ever being
00:40:49things like waffles.
00:40:51There may have been
00:40:52scrambled eggs.
00:40:55There were
00:40:58a lot of Broadway types.
00:41:01Not stars,
00:41:02mind you.
00:41:03Secondary players,
00:41:04bit players.
00:41:05We were,
00:41:06I guess we were actors.
00:41:09I'm an actor,
00:41:10not a clown.
00:41:12I'm the silverware
00:41:12from the actors.
00:41:15To eat
00:41:16or not to eat,
00:41:17that is the question.
00:41:20My actor friends,
00:41:22and I would go to
00:41:24at least three locations
00:41:26right near the theaters
00:41:28that I would work at.
00:41:30We would sometimes
00:41:31go and get
00:41:33napkins
00:41:34and put
00:41:36ketchup
00:41:38on the napkins
00:41:40and pretend
00:41:41that we were
00:41:41eating the napkins.
00:41:43You know,
00:41:44point being,
00:41:45in Horn and Hart,
00:41:46everything tasted delicious,
00:41:48even the napkins.
00:41:51Miss Duncan and I
00:41:52will be lunching here.
00:41:52Will you pick us up
00:41:53and hop in our place?
00:41:53Once in a while,
00:41:54there'd be a lighthearted
00:41:56movie,
00:41:57a love story.
00:41:58There.
00:41:59They used the automat.
00:42:00They had lunch there
00:42:01or something.
00:42:02Do you like chicken pot pie?
00:42:04Twenty-five cents.
00:42:05Doris Day,
00:42:06James Garner,
00:42:07that kind of movie.
00:42:09Where?
00:42:09She just went to the automat.
00:42:12See,
00:42:13I thought this was my table.
00:42:15Mind if I sit down?
00:42:19Remarkable.
00:42:20She never makes a mistake.
00:42:22Fast as lightning, too.
00:42:24In an average
00:42:24eight-hour day,
00:42:25that girl handles
00:42:2618,240 nickels.
00:42:29Ladies and gentlemen,
00:42:30one of the many pleasures
00:42:31when a visitor comes
00:42:32from the ark
00:42:32is going to the many
00:42:33fine eating places.
00:42:40Hey,
00:42:41you're Bob Hope,
00:42:42ain't you?
00:42:52In an automat.
00:42:54By the early 60s,
00:42:56the automat
00:42:57had become
00:42:58incredibly popular.
00:42:59Jack Benny
00:43:01liked the automat.
00:43:03He decided
00:43:04to launch
00:43:04a TV series there.
00:43:06He had a reputation
00:43:07for being cheap.
00:43:09And he invited
00:43:10all the celebrities,
00:43:11Helen Hayes
00:43:12and people like that,
00:43:14in their long gowns
00:43:15and their tuxedos.
00:43:16And when they got
00:43:17to the automat,
00:43:18Jack Benny
00:43:19gave them
00:43:20a roll of nickels.
00:43:31It seems like
00:43:32you even went
00:43:33to Horn and Hardart
00:43:34in Philadelphia.
00:43:34I did.
00:43:35When I was in Philadelphia
00:43:36and went to the automat,
00:43:38Philadelphia had the same thing.
00:43:40The automat.
00:43:41And people who came
00:43:42to it in New York City,
00:43:43a lot of them
00:43:44don't even know
00:43:45anything about Philadelphia.
00:43:47In Philadelphia,
00:43:48they were more known
00:43:49as Horn and Hardart.
00:43:51You're going
00:43:52to Horn and Hardart.
00:43:53Over the years,
00:43:55even though
00:43:55to the country
00:43:55as a whole,
00:43:56when they thought
00:43:57of the automat,
00:43:58they thought of New York.
00:43:59In Philadelphia,
00:44:00Horn and Hardart
00:44:01couldn't be more popular.
00:44:03In 1941,
00:44:04between its restaurants
00:44:05and its retail stores,
00:44:07Horn and Hardart
00:44:07was feeding 10%
00:44:08of the population
00:44:09of the entire city
00:44:10of Philadelphia,
00:44:11one of the largest
00:44:12cities in America
00:44:13at that time.
00:44:17I moved to Philadelphia
00:44:18in 1954
00:44:22as a young 16-year-old.
00:44:25And because there was not
00:44:27a lot of money
00:44:28in the household,
00:44:30we used to go
00:44:31to Horn and Hardart.
00:44:34For years,
00:44:35I thought Horn and Hardart
00:44:37was only in Philadelphia.
00:44:40Yes, they had good food,
00:44:42but it was an important
00:44:44place for me
00:44:45and other people.
00:44:48I can say
00:44:49there were parts
00:44:50of Philadelphia
00:44:51that were segregated,
00:44:53like skating rinks
00:44:54and bowling alleys.
00:44:57But Horn and Hardart
00:44:58was a nice place
00:45:00where African Americans
00:45:01could go
00:45:02and feel dignified.
00:45:08Even though Horn and Hardart
00:45:09in the 50s
00:45:10and early 60s
00:45:11was as big
00:45:12as it had ever been,
00:45:13they were no longer
00:45:14making money
00:45:14the way they used to.
00:45:15In the late 50s,
00:45:16we were beginning
00:45:17to see competition
00:45:19from a company
00:45:20called Chuck Full of Nuts.
00:45:22People could come
00:45:23into Chuck Full of Nuts,
00:45:24get some coffee,
00:45:25which is what
00:45:25they were chiefly named for,
00:45:27get out,
00:45:27spend very little money.
00:45:29It represented
00:45:30the first
00:45:32serious competition
00:45:33we'd had
00:45:34in a long while.
00:45:35I'd call that
00:45:36the first cloud in the sky.
00:45:38Ooh.
00:45:40Ooh.
00:45:44Every time someone
00:45:45buys Horn and Hardart coffee,
00:45:47it hurts us a little.
00:45:48Horn and Hardart
00:45:49uses such ridiculously
00:45:50expensive coffee beans,
00:45:52we lose money on it.
00:45:54We could make money
00:45:55by buying less expensive
00:45:56coffee beans,
00:45:57but then our coffee
00:45:59would be less good.
00:46:01Horn and Hardart coffee,
00:46:03it's so good,
00:46:04we lose money on it.
00:46:08Horn and Hardart
00:46:09was losing money
00:46:10on every cup of coffee
00:46:11that they sold.
00:46:13Post-war inflation
00:46:14made everything
00:46:14more expensive,
00:46:16and the nickel
00:46:17was no longer worth
00:46:17what it once was.
00:46:19They waited
00:46:20as long as they could
00:46:21afford to
00:46:22until finally
00:46:23Horn and Hardart
00:46:24raised the price of coffee.
00:46:26But the vending machine
00:46:28couldn't take pennies,
00:46:29so Horn and Hardart
00:46:30had to go to 10 cents.
00:46:33They doubled the price.
00:46:35The results
00:46:36were disastrous.
00:46:39The number of cups
00:46:40of coffee sold
00:46:41immediately dropped
00:46:41from 70 million a year
00:46:43to 45 million.
00:46:47For some reason,
00:46:49there was this
00:46:49emotional attachment.
00:46:51Yeah, they were known
00:46:53for that 5-cent cup of coffee.
00:46:56The nickel subway ride
00:46:58was gone.
00:46:59The nickel phone call
00:47:00was gone.
00:47:01But when the nickel
00:47:03cup of coffee changed,
00:47:04it created
00:47:05a very emotional divide
00:47:07between the automat
00:47:09that they knew
00:47:09what was coming to them.
00:47:11The beginning of the end.
00:47:11I mean, it was called
00:47:12the house that nickels built.
00:47:21My father fought
00:47:22in that battle
00:47:23to keep it at 5 cents.
00:47:25And when the decision
00:47:26was finally made,
00:47:28he physically collapsed
00:47:29and required medical assistance
00:47:31for several days
00:47:32while he was flat
00:47:33on his back.
00:47:34The decision drained
00:47:35him so much.
00:47:37But it had to be faced.
00:47:45A quiet revolution
00:47:47has been taking place
00:47:48for nearly a decade.
00:47:50More than a million persons
00:47:51each year
00:47:52have pulled up stakes
00:47:53in the cities.
00:47:54In 1957,
00:47:56the President Eisenhower
00:47:57put the interstate
00:47:58highway system in.
00:47:59The result
00:48:00was to encourage
00:48:02businesses
00:48:03to locate
00:48:04outside of the center cities.
00:48:06The center city
00:48:07was no longer
00:48:09going to be
00:48:09what it had been.
00:48:12That was a major cloud
00:48:13in the sky
00:48:13and of course
00:48:14it became a torrent
00:48:15in the sky.
00:48:17We shall build
00:48:18hundreds of thousands
00:48:19of homes
00:48:20during this post-war
00:48:21return to peacetime activity.
00:48:23Everyone was racing
00:48:25toward the suburbs.
00:48:26Women, for the most part,
00:48:28were raising families now
00:48:29so they weren't working
00:48:31in the city.
00:48:32And men who were working
00:48:33in the city
00:48:34were not hanging around
00:48:36for dinner here.
00:48:37They were going home
00:48:37to their home-cooked meals.
00:48:40The romance,
00:48:41the adventure
00:48:42of choosing from food
00:48:44gathered from the
00:48:45four corners of America.
00:48:47Also, tastes in food
00:48:49were changing.
00:48:50Frozen foods
00:48:50are the nearest thing
00:48:51to fresh foods available.
00:48:53They are convenient,
00:48:54easily prepared,
00:48:55and palatable.
00:48:58The people eating out
00:48:59were younger.
00:49:00They didn't care
00:49:01about saving money.
00:49:02They were willing
00:49:02to spend more
00:49:03for a service experience.
00:49:06Thrift started
00:49:07to become something
00:49:08that the consumers
00:49:08were actually turned away by.
00:49:12We knew that
00:49:13the demographic patterns
00:49:14were changing.
00:49:16These were worries.
00:49:28March 28, 1960.
00:49:31My father
00:49:34unexpectedly died.
00:49:37My father was a man
00:49:39who cared about people
00:49:41very, very strongly.
00:49:45From the time of Mr. Horn
00:49:46and Mr. Hardart
00:49:47and my father,
00:49:48that's what Horn and Hardart
00:49:50was about.
00:49:54Employees and customers
00:49:55cared immensely
00:49:56about the company
00:49:57because they knew
00:49:58the company cared immensely
00:49:59about them.
00:50:02I think you've sensed that
00:50:03in the interviews
00:50:04you've had.
00:50:06To be clear,
00:50:07that wasn't just a question
00:50:08of sitting down
00:50:09in a business school
00:50:10and saying,
00:50:10well, this is a good
00:50:11business practice.
00:50:13It was done
00:50:13because it was right.
00:50:22Edwin Daly took the company
00:50:23from 1941
00:50:24when Horn died
00:50:25into 1960
00:50:27when he himself died.
00:50:29But Daly made a mistake
00:50:31that Horn had not made.
00:50:32He didn't prepare the company
00:50:34for a successor at all.
00:50:35And the breaking of the chain
00:50:37of people with a real commitment
00:50:38to the Horn and Hardart's
00:50:40original vision
00:50:41was a big part of what caused
00:50:43the problems they followed.
00:50:53I grew up in Brooklyn, New York.
00:50:55And as a young boy,
00:50:57I had always heard
00:50:58about New York City
00:50:59and Manhattan.
00:51:01I must have been
00:51:02about 10 years old
00:51:03when my aunt Shirley
00:51:04took me into Manhattan
00:51:06for the first time
00:51:07in my life.
00:51:09She took me
00:51:10to Radio City Music Hall.
00:51:13It was amazing.
00:51:15We got out of Radio City
00:51:16and she said,
00:51:17I'm going to take you
00:51:17to a very special place.
00:51:22Walked in.
00:51:24I remember putting money
00:51:26in the window.
00:51:28And the next thing I knew,
00:51:30the window opened
00:51:31and I received
00:51:33an apple pie.
00:51:35And at that age
00:51:37of 10 or so,
00:51:38I was mystified.
00:51:41How did this happen?
00:51:43And I remember asking
00:51:44my aunt,
00:51:45and she said,
00:51:47there's a magician
00:51:48on the other side.
00:51:51And I believe that.
00:51:53And I have never
00:51:55stopped threading
00:51:57everything we've done
00:51:58at Starbucks
00:51:59with that initial experience.
00:52:02When we had 11 stores
00:52:04and 100 people
00:52:05in 1987
00:52:06and dreaming
00:52:06about what we would do,
00:52:08I always had the automat
00:52:10in my mind's eye.
00:52:12How do you create
00:52:13that level of theater,
00:52:15excitement,
00:52:17surprise and delight?
00:52:19The automat
00:52:20was something
00:52:21unique and special.
00:52:23And really,
00:52:25when I think
00:52:25about my own career,
00:52:26despite what we've been
00:52:28able to dream about
00:52:29and accomplish
00:52:30at Starbucks,
00:52:32at the heart of it,
00:52:33I'm a storyteller
00:52:34trying to create
00:52:36a sense of discovery
00:52:37and romance.
00:52:39The automat for me
00:52:41was a seminal moment
00:52:43in my childhood
00:52:44and I became a merchant
00:52:46the day that I was
00:52:48in that automat.
00:52:56when it's least expected
00:52:58you're elected
00:52:59These are people
00:53:00who are going to buy
00:53:01a roll.
00:53:09Now you can imagine
00:53:10it's pretty frustrating.
00:53:18This fellow
00:53:19with a lower birth
00:53:25he's going to try again,
00:53:27you know,
00:53:27he's very, very patient.
00:53:32Now he tries
00:53:33to return to two plates.
00:53:44In the 60s,
00:53:45there was a group
00:53:46that we organized.
00:53:49We met
00:53:50on the second floor
00:53:51of Hornet Harducks
00:53:52at 15th and Market
00:53:53where there were
00:53:55ideas about
00:53:56what could happen
00:53:57if we work hard enough.
00:53:59And we strategized
00:54:01about how we would
00:54:03be able to
00:54:04get into politics.
00:54:06It was the birth
00:54:08of the black
00:54:09political movement
00:54:10in Philadelphia
00:54:10which led to
00:54:12my being able
00:54:13to run for mayor
00:54:14of Philadelphia.
00:54:16In the 1950s
00:54:18and 60s,
00:54:19I ate so much
00:54:21Hornet Harducks
00:54:22meatloaf.
00:54:23By 1970,
00:54:24I really
00:54:25went off meat.
00:54:32I was in Vietnam
00:54:33in the 60s.
00:54:34When I went
00:54:35in the army,
00:54:35it was still
00:54:36in the process
00:54:37of ending segregation.
00:54:38But I came in
00:54:39from Kelly Street
00:54:40and Hornet Harducks
00:54:41didn't know
00:54:41what I meant.
00:54:42So I knew
00:54:43what diversity
00:54:43was all about.
00:54:44So integration
00:54:45wasn't anything
00:54:45new to me.
00:54:46I lived in integration.
00:54:48I was going to help
00:54:49transform the army
00:54:51and make it
00:54:52understand diversity.
00:55:00In the 60s,
00:55:01my family
00:55:02had moved
00:55:03out of the city
00:55:04to the suburbs
00:55:05to escape crime.
00:55:07I had been
00:55:07the victim of crime.
00:55:10Hornet Harducks
00:55:11were beginning
00:55:11to decline.
00:55:14As people
00:55:15kept moving
00:55:15to the suburbs,
00:55:17the breakfast
00:55:17and dinners
00:55:18and the weekend
00:55:18business
00:55:19that Hornet Harducks
00:55:19had always enjoyed
00:55:20disappeared.
00:55:21They were no longer
00:55:22serving meals
00:55:23seven days a week.
00:55:24They were serving
00:55:25them five.
00:55:26Having a huge impact
00:55:28on the amount
00:55:28of sales
00:55:28each restaurant
00:55:29was able to do.
00:55:31We needed
00:55:32to reduce
00:55:33commitment
00:55:34in center cities.
00:55:35I'm now
00:55:36addressing Philadelphia.
00:55:38Let's face facts.
00:55:43In 1966,
00:55:45Hornet Harducks
00:55:45of Philadelphia
00:55:46closed their
00:55:47central city commissary
00:55:48and opened
00:55:49a new one
00:55:49in the suburbs
00:55:50that had access
00:55:51to superhighway routes
00:55:53and would give them
00:55:53a broader reach.
00:55:56But for some reason,
00:55:58instead of shrinking,
00:55:59they built themselves
00:56:00for enormous volumes
00:56:02of food.
00:56:02And that cost
00:56:04sunk them into debt
00:56:05from which they never
00:56:06recovered.
00:56:08It was a blunder.
00:56:09It was overbuilt.
00:56:11It was badly located.
00:56:14It was just wrong.
00:56:17Hornet Harducks' system,
00:56:18the commissary model
00:56:19had been a brilliant system.
00:56:21It worked fantastically well
00:56:23as long as
00:56:24everybody went
00:56:25and ate there.
00:56:26But when they started
00:56:28to suffer
00:56:29a drop in volume,
00:56:31things couldn't
00:56:32be scaled back.
00:56:37My father became
00:56:39president of Hornet Harducks
00:56:41at a very difficult time.
00:56:43I remember my mom saying
00:56:44it was sort of like
00:56:45taking over the helm
00:56:46of the Titanic.
00:56:48I don't think
00:56:49those last several years
00:56:50were pleasant for him
00:56:52in any way.
00:56:53There was a major recession
00:56:55in the country,
00:56:56but especially
00:56:56in New York City.
00:56:58And Hornet Harducks
00:56:59was a ship
00:56:59that was taking on water.
00:57:06The neighborhood
00:57:07declined very badly
00:57:08around Union Square.
00:57:10It was full of homeless
00:57:10and bums.
00:57:12But we'd go down
00:57:13to meet my grandfather
00:57:15at the Automat.
00:57:17Grandpa liked the Automat.
00:57:20He was a poor man.
00:57:21He was a garment worker.
00:57:23He would sit there
00:57:24and talk about
00:57:25how much he hated
00:57:26the Vietnam War
00:57:28in Yiddish
00:57:29to his friends
00:57:29who would meet him there.
00:57:38One of their hallmarks
00:57:40was that you could go
00:57:41and spend a lot of time
00:57:42there,
00:57:43have a cup of coffee,
00:57:44meet interesting people.
00:57:47But the problem was
00:57:48people were coming
00:57:49and squatting.
00:57:50So you started to get
00:57:51homeless people
00:57:52and vagrants
00:57:53in the Hornet Harducks.
00:57:55And so they went
00:57:56from being these
00:57:57beautiful,
00:57:58clean,
00:57:59art deco cathedrals
00:58:01to dirty
00:58:02and smelly
00:58:04and not
00:58:05a pleasant place to be.
00:58:15I was the busboy
00:58:17at Hornet Harden,
00:58:1815 Park Row.
00:58:21My first time
00:58:22really seeing
00:58:23homeless people
00:58:23was when I was working
00:58:25down in that
00:58:25Wall Street area.
00:58:27Hornet Harden
00:58:28was a place
00:58:29where you could go
00:58:29and nobody would
00:58:30bother you,
00:58:31where you could
00:58:31stay warm
00:58:32and get out
00:58:33of the cold.
00:58:34So they would just
00:58:35sit there all day.
00:58:37And I would
00:58:38at first try
00:58:39to get them out,
00:58:40but there was a policy
00:58:41to just leave people alone.
00:58:44In fact,
00:58:44sometimes I would sneak
00:58:45some leftover food
00:58:47over there,
00:58:47I would do that.
00:58:49This is me.
00:58:50I had the fro back then,
00:58:51and this was my grandmother,
00:58:53Sarah Perez.
00:58:54We worked at the same
00:58:55Hornet Harden.
00:58:57She was a nickel thrower.
00:58:59You know,
00:59:00Hornet Harden
00:59:01really cared for people,
00:59:02and that was something
00:59:03that stuck with me.
00:59:05In fact,
00:59:05I recently retired
00:59:06after 26 years
00:59:08in social services
00:59:09in New York,
00:59:10besides all the other things
00:59:11I've done in my life,
00:59:13but that's what
00:59:13I'm most proud of.
00:59:15So I loved Hornet Harden,
00:59:17and I loved it
00:59:17since I was a child,
00:59:18because they had
00:59:19Christmas parties
00:59:20for the employees' children.
00:59:24My grandmother
00:59:25took my brother and me.
00:59:26We couldn't wait to go,
00:59:27because they would have
00:59:28all kinds of entertainment
00:59:29and things for the kids.
00:59:31Got to see Santa,
00:59:33sit out in his lab
00:59:34and get these great toys.
00:59:36We loved Hornet Harden.
00:59:39Even in the 60s,
00:59:40when it was kind of rough.
00:59:42In fact,
00:59:43my grandmother,
00:59:43she got an award
00:59:44called I'm Not Fancy,
00:59:46But I'm Good Award,
00:59:46which was an advertising
00:59:48slogan back then.
00:59:50How did the campaign
00:59:51get its name?
00:59:53It was the age
00:59:54of the fancy coffee shop,
00:59:56and so they were fancy
00:59:58and not very good,
01:00:00and Hornet Harden,
01:00:01the food was wonderful,
01:00:03but the experience
01:00:04that people had in there
01:00:05was not always the best.
01:00:08There's a story
01:00:09about a southern girl
01:00:10who came to New York.
01:00:12She said,
01:00:13I went into Hornet Harden
01:00:14and I tried the baked beans
01:00:16and they were fine
01:00:18and the candied sweet potatoes,
01:00:21they were just like down home.
01:00:23And then I had some
01:00:24of that lemon meringue pie
01:00:26and then the man
01:00:29sitting across the way from me,
01:00:30he flopped it out
01:00:32right in my pie.
01:00:34Hey, Barnes,
01:00:36disturbance in the automat
01:00:37over on 10th.
01:00:38What kind of disturbance?
01:00:39Some guy's raising hell.
01:00:41The automat on 10th?
01:00:42Yeah, he took his clothes off.
01:00:44He's running around naked.
01:00:45Charming.
01:00:46Well, that was the story
01:00:47of Hornet Harden.
01:00:48You know, you'd go in there,
01:00:49the food would be great,
01:00:51and then you'd have someone
01:00:54do something like that.
01:00:56So I came up with this campaign
01:00:58for a product that had its flaws.
01:01:01These days, it's not enough
01:01:02to have a restaurant
01:01:03with good food and low prices.
01:01:05You have to have atmosphere, too.
01:01:07Trouble is, this junk costs money,
01:01:09and to pay for it,
01:01:10you have to raise the prices
01:01:11or cut the quality of the food.
01:01:12But if you don't have
01:01:14bloody chandeliers
01:01:15or canned music,
01:01:19you can put the money you save
01:01:25into better quality food.
01:01:26We think that's more important.
01:01:29You can't eat atmosphere.
01:01:33I was born in the Bronx.
01:01:35I grew up in Hornet Ardots,
01:01:37and it was always a great treat
01:01:38for me to go into those places.
01:01:42So this campaign,
01:01:44it had an extra level
01:01:45of meaning for me.
01:01:47You know,
01:01:48we tried to resurrect it.
01:01:52We did what we could.
01:01:57This campaign was the closest thing
01:01:59to self-expression
01:02:00that I could ever have
01:02:02in advertising, I think,
01:02:04because it meant so much to me.
01:02:08It was absolutely the closest
01:02:10to my heart
01:02:10because it's near you.
01:02:37It was a sad day
01:02:39when I would go
01:02:41and look for Hornet Ardots
01:02:42and saw a sign with closing.
01:02:46The closing of the automat
01:02:47located at 818 Chestnut Street
01:02:50marks the passing of the old
01:02:51and the advent of the new.
01:02:59$271,000 all done.
01:03:02America's first automat
01:03:03today was put on the auctioneer's block,
01:03:06the building,
01:03:07and most of the equipment, that is.
01:03:11$271,000 all done.
01:03:14Once wasted.
01:03:16Third hand.
01:03:17Last time.
01:03:18All done.
01:03:20Right there.
01:03:21Here it goes.
01:03:23For my father,
01:03:25it was the family company
01:03:27and it had his family name on it
01:03:29and had been around
01:03:29for a very long time.
01:03:31So to be in a position to do that
01:03:33must have been really difficult for him.
01:03:37I used to have lunch once in a while
01:03:40and I could still remember him
01:03:42calling me in and saying,
01:03:43John, I'm going to be packing up.
01:03:49The real estate became the most valuable thing
01:03:51that Hornet Ardots had.
01:03:52Great real estate throughout New York City
01:03:54and they leveraged that real estate
01:03:55by franchising.
01:03:58I think he felt like the company
01:04:00and its core and its soul
01:04:02was being gutted in its spirit.
01:04:08It had been not just a business,
01:04:11it was a point of view.
01:04:12It was almost a philosophy
01:04:14which these gentlemen,
01:04:16Mr. Horn and Mr. Hardart,
01:04:18had embraced and projected
01:04:19through these places.
01:04:21Not just making money for themselves,
01:04:23but really providing the public
01:04:25with what they need at the same time.
01:04:26And I think the automat proved
01:04:29that there doesn't have to be
01:04:30a contradiction
01:04:31between those two notions.
01:04:34And these people
01:04:35expected this to last forever.
01:04:42I came in at the tail end
01:04:44of the automat.
01:04:45I had gone to the automats
01:04:48many times during my lifetime.
01:04:50and here I was
01:04:52in the position
01:04:54of being the undertaker,
01:04:57converting the automats
01:04:58into Burger Kings
01:05:00and other restaurants.
01:05:03Hornet Ardots,
01:05:04Burger King,
01:05:05Arby's,
01:05:06Bojangles,
01:05:08Mark Twain,
01:05:09and Good Bodies.
01:05:12Here I am
01:05:14and this is my little crew.
01:05:17Right here.
01:05:20John was in charge of maintenance.
01:05:22He was in charge of construction.
01:05:23He was in charge of everything.
01:05:27And John was sort of reluctant
01:05:29about moving forward
01:05:30because he had
01:05:31a sentimental attachment.
01:05:33What he had before was beauty.
01:05:36What he had before was elegance
01:05:38versus what I was creating.
01:05:41I was creating nuts and bolts
01:05:43and he was wine and flowers.
01:05:49But the people
01:05:50that were now sitting
01:05:51around the table
01:05:52making decisions
01:05:54were not automat people.
01:05:57They were fast food people.
01:05:59I was moving ahead
01:06:01and I was part of progress.
01:06:03I appreciate the old
01:06:05but you have to move forward.
01:06:11The automat was
01:06:14archaic at this point.
01:06:39They date way back to 1912.
01:06:42They were the place
01:06:44where Nichols went for lunch.
01:06:46They were the automats.
01:06:47And now there's only one.
01:06:50The last automat.
01:06:51Horn and Hardarts
01:06:52on 42nd Street
01:06:54where the 3rd Avenue L
01:06:55used to cast a shadow.
01:06:56My mother brought me here
01:06:58when I was a little girl.
01:06:59I brought my children here.
01:07:01I had one friend
01:07:01who loved the macaroni and cheese.
01:07:04She was a little bit hefty.
01:07:06I used to sit there
01:07:08at nighttime all night
01:07:09because I had no place to go.
01:07:11You know, I was one of the homeless
01:07:13and I used to sit in there
01:07:14but they never threw us out
01:07:16or anything.
01:07:17Oh, forget about it.
01:07:18Are you kidding me?
01:07:19Baked beans are the best.
01:07:20And Nichols, right?
01:07:22You know, there's nothing
01:07:22for Nichols today.
01:07:23These days,
01:07:24the Horn and Hardart company
01:07:25is mainly concerned
01:07:26with its much faster food franchises
01:07:28operating more than 250
01:07:30RBs, Burger Kings
01:07:31and Bojangles.
01:07:34People think the automat
01:07:36was a precursor to fast food.
01:07:39I wouldn't have called it fast food.
01:07:42Fast food is more simplified
01:07:44and that has to do with speed.
01:07:47The automat was about many things
01:07:50but it was not about speed.
01:07:52Horn and Hardart,
01:07:53you knew what you were going to get.
01:07:55Fast service, yes.
01:07:57But Horn and Hardart
01:07:59was not fast food.
01:08:00We were, above all,
01:08:02about good quality.
01:08:04You don't go to McDonald's
01:08:06for top quality food.
01:08:10And Horn and Hardart
01:08:11also had a much wider range
01:08:14of foods.
01:08:15I'm sure you've heard
01:08:16in your interviews
01:08:17people thinking about
01:08:19Horn and Hardart beef pies
01:08:21or Horn and Hardart cream spinach
01:08:22or Horn and Hardart chocolate pudding
01:08:24or Horn and Hardart this,
01:08:26that or the other thing.
01:08:27A vast variety of...
01:08:30Carl liked baked beans.
01:08:31We both loved baked beans.
01:08:33He loved cream spinach.
01:08:34I liked cream spinach.
01:08:37But mostly,
01:08:38we really loved the pies.
01:08:44The strawberry rhubarb,
01:08:46great crust,
01:08:47great tartness in the rhubarb.
01:08:49The strawberries
01:08:50were sweetened with sugar.
01:08:52If we didn't have that,
01:08:53we'd settle for an apple pie
01:08:55which was also very good.
01:08:57Lemon meringue
01:08:58not only looked big,
01:09:00but you could smash
01:09:00your face into it.
01:09:02Chocolate pudding pie
01:09:03which only came in the winter.
01:09:05Carl mentioned probably
01:09:07the chocolate pudding pie
01:09:08with the cream.
01:09:10He liked that.
01:09:11We waited patiently
01:09:12all year for it.
01:09:14That was the best pie.
01:09:18Really,
01:09:19there was nothing
01:09:20like their coconut custard pie.
01:09:22It was truly heaven.
01:09:24I mean,
01:09:25how could anybody even
01:09:25think of putting together
01:09:27the coconut
01:09:29and the custard
01:09:30and the cream
01:09:31and the coconut custard pie?
01:09:33God made that.
01:09:44I think this was
01:09:45the very last automat.
01:09:47That's right on 42nd Street
01:09:49and 3rd Avenue.
01:09:51The last place
01:09:52I closed it all the time
01:09:53to close that one
01:09:54down yourself personally.
01:09:56and that completed
01:09:58my circle.
01:10:04The door slammed shut
01:10:05on a piece of
01:10:06New York restaurant history
01:10:07as Horn & Harder
01:10:08closed the last
01:10:09of its famous automats
01:10:10in Midtown Manhattan.
01:10:12In years past,
01:10:14there were more than
01:10:1440 automats
01:10:15scattered all around town.
01:10:16But as fast food restaurants
01:10:18proliferated in Midtown,
01:10:19the popularity of the chain
01:10:21lost favor with the public
01:10:22and now it's gone forever.
01:10:49That was the end.
01:10:52when it was too bad
01:10:54because it was such
01:10:56a great experiment.
01:11:01It had some style
01:11:03and it was different.
01:11:05The marble, the brass,
01:11:07the floors, the pillars.
01:11:10The chatter.
01:11:12The coffee.
01:11:15It was the automat.
01:11:18And even though it was
01:11:20beautiful,
01:11:21it can't work again
01:11:23because of the logistics
01:11:25and the economics of today
01:11:27won't allow anything
01:11:28that simple, naive,
01:11:31and eloquent and beautiful
01:11:33to flourish again.
01:11:36It was part of my youth
01:11:38that I really loved.
01:11:40I loved the automat.
01:11:43I wish somebody
01:11:44could bring it back
01:11:45but I don't know.
01:11:47That lady isn't there anymore
01:11:49and can give you 20 nickels, so.
01:11:55They should have never closed.
01:12:00I had a warehouse
01:12:01loaded with the equipment.
01:12:02With the key.
01:12:04I thought I had the key.
01:12:06I wonder if the stuff
01:12:07is still there yet.
01:12:08I'm talking about a load.
01:12:42Life changes, things change,
01:12:44we all get a little older
01:12:45but the older you get
01:12:46the more you reflect back
01:12:47on, you know,
01:12:49what came in the beginning.
01:12:50The Horn and Hardets
01:12:52and the automats of the world.
01:12:54It was a remarkable institution.
01:12:56It meant a lot to those of us
01:12:58who were New Yorkers
01:12:59or those in Philadelphia
01:13:00and had the same experience.
01:13:02It took a while
01:13:03for society to get it right.
01:13:07Even when I moved
01:13:09to Washington, D.C. in 1980,
01:13:11many of the clubs
01:13:13were closed to women.
01:13:15So my practice was
01:13:17I wouldn't speak
01:13:20at any venue
01:13:21that didn't admit
01:13:23people without regard
01:13:24to race, gender,
01:13:26people from all walks of life.
01:13:29One of the great things
01:13:31about being a historian
01:13:32of the automat
01:13:33is the reaction
01:13:34that people have
01:13:35when I mention it.
01:13:36Big smile blossoms
01:13:38across their face
01:13:39as suddenly they're cast back
01:13:41to the days
01:13:41when they were getting
01:13:42their pie or cup of coffee
01:13:44out of that dolphin head.
01:13:46Those little knobs
01:13:48and doors were a gimmick
01:13:49but the place
01:13:51became something different.
01:13:52From Edward Hopper's painting
01:13:54of the isolated woman
01:13:56to my grandfather
01:13:58sitting in the Horn and Hardert,
01:14:01it became a place
01:14:02that everybody could go to.
01:14:04The generosity of spirit
01:14:06was sublime
01:14:07and people got that
01:14:08and as a result
01:14:09they owned the automat.
01:14:11They felt a very strong affection
01:14:13for it.
01:14:14Horn and Hardert
01:14:15was about the people
01:14:16and I'm glad to have been
01:14:17part of it
01:14:18and part of this documentary.
01:14:19High five.
01:14:21Horn and Harder rocks.
01:14:24It seems very much
01:14:26like the automat
01:14:27was a melting pot
01:14:28and kind of an equalizer
01:14:29at this time
01:14:30and I thank you so much
01:14:32for taking the time
01:14:33to meet with me.
01:14:35You're more than welcome.
01:14:37I think this is
01:14:37a wonderful project.
01:14:40So I wonder
01:14:41if you think
01:14:42if it still lives on
01:14:43and I wonder
01:14:44what you think
01:14:44what the message
01:14:46or the lesson
01:14:46can be learned from this.
01:14:49You know my feelings.
01:14:51I remain very loyal
01:14:53to the concept
01:14:54of what Horn and Hardert was.
01:14:56Could you maybe
01:14:57think of some
01:14:58modern reincarnations?
01:15:00Where do you see
01:15:01that kind of idealism today?
01:15:04Well, I think the idealism
01:15:06was infused into the lives
01:15:07of the people
01:15:08who experienced the automat.
01:15:09In terms of institutions today,
01:15:13I wonder,
01:15:15Starbucks?
01:15:16This is a picture
01:15:17of the automat
01:15:18that I keep
01:15:19on a wall in my office
01:15:21as a constant reminder
01:15:23of the theater,
01:15:25the romance,
01:15:27and the sense of discovery
01:15:28that existed
01:15:29in the automat.
01:15:32I think the principles
01:15:33that they pioneered
01:15:35and the ideals
01:15:35that they had
01:15:36are still alive today.
01:15:39Anybody can do anything
01:15:41and embrace the notion
01:15:43that you can be successful
01:15:44by being as inclusive
01:15:46as possible,
01:15:47as democratic as possible,
01:15:48as generous as possible,
01:15:51and still make it.
01:16:01Well, I wish you
01:16:03great good luck
01:16:04with this adventure.
01:16:06Use everything I've said.
01:16:08I'm popular,
01:16:10I'm famous,
01:16:12and make me the spearhead
01:16:14of selling this
01:16:17Meshuggana documentary.
01:16:19Thank you so much.
01:16:20All right,
01:16:20I'm leaving you now.
01:16:22And I'll be in touch.
01:16:24I'll be calling
01:16:25every once in a while.
01:16:26Anything happen?
01:16:27Some people just adore martinis.
01:16:31Others love iced tea.
01:16:36In Venice,
01:16:38they all go for bellinis.
01:16:41But coffee,
01:16:43that's for me.
01:16:46I've tasted
01:16:48every kind of brew.
01:16:51at every coffee shop.
01:16:57Some were good
01:16:58and some were great.
01:17:02But this one
01:17:03was the top.
01:17:09there was nothing like the coffee
01:17:12at the automat.
01:17:15It's aroma
01:17:16and its flavor
01:17:18were supreme.
01:17:20From a silver dolphin spout,
01:17:23the coffee poured right out.
01:17:26Not to mention,
01:17:27at the end,
01:17:29a little spurt of cream.
01:17:31There was nothing like the coffee at the automat.
01:17:36There was nothing like the coffee at the automat.
01:17:37Nothing fancy or pretentious like today.
01:17:42You have to understand they had no latte grande.
01:17:47No quizzical baristas in your way.
01:17:52There was nothing like the coffee at the automat.
01:17:56You would find a seat,
01:18:00hang up your coat and hat.
01:18:03And for just a shiny nickel,
01:18:06you'd taste what you could tickle
01:18:09with that wonderful,
01:18:11magnificent,
01:18:12unbelievable,
01:18:14awesome coffee
01:18:15uniqueliness
01:18:17at the
01:18:18automat.
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