00:00It's a debate that has split the academic community, one of the nation's largest university
00:03systems. Since 2020, the University of California has stopped considering SAT and ACT scores
00:08for admission. Now, thousands of faculty members say they do not agree with the test-free protocol
00:13and want the school to reconsider its test-free policy.
00:17All right, joining us now from Washington with more is Bloomberg Education Policy reporter
00:21Liam Knox. Liam, this is such a controversial topic because some people love these tests,
00:27some people hate these tests. My question is, even if they re-implement the test, is that
00:31really going to solve the larger problem of these students showing up unprepared for college-level
00:36work? It's a great question and one that's kind of at the heart of this debate, honestly.
00:42There are a number of other factors, as I think anyone who has been observing or living through
00:49the past five years with or without college-age, high-school-age kids would know. There's been
00:55the rise of AI use in the classrooms. Obviously, the pandemic itself had a huge impact on a
01:01generation of students who went through virtual learning for a few years and are still catching
01:06up. So, the question of, like, what is the actual cause of this lack of preparedness is
01:11very much up in the air. But professors, college administrators, they want to try everything that
01:17they can to make sure that students who do enter the classroom are ready for the level of college work
01:21that's expected of them. Liam, you mentioned the pandemic, and I got to say, my daughter's been,
01:25you know, she applied for colleges this year. She's going off. You just went through this. Yes,
01:28I just went through this. And it's funny because you go and they're telling these students that
01:32are there, you know what, this is the last time these scores are going to be optional for students
01:36incoming next year. You know, we're going to change it, and that's how we're going to make it.
01:40They're going to have to apply. So, I see this at different universities, but explain why UC is so
01:46important. I mean, this is one of the last elite universities kind of making this change,
01:49possibly. Possibly. There are a number of universities that are still test optional,
01:55especially the large public institutions, University of Michigan, a number of others
02:00that have not gone back on their test optional policies. What makes UC very interesting is that
02:05this is, one, they weren't just test optional. In 2020, when they got rid of SAT requirements,
02:12they went test blind, which means that admissions officers can't consider standardized test scores,
02:16even if applicants submit them. Also, the UC is a massive, as you mentioned, a massive public
02:24university system. And it's not just the elite schools, UCLA, UC Berkeley, UCSD that are in
02:31consideration here. There's also schools like UC Riverside and UC Merced, which take over 90% of all
02:37of their applicants and serve a very different, much more local population, where maybe there's a
02:44question of, you know, is one test policy for the entire system really the right way to go?
02:50I think it's... Oh, sorry, go ahead.
02:51Go ahead.
02:52No, I think it's interesting because, I don't know about you, but when we were going to school,
02:55to me, the tests were kind of the leveler for kids who didn't go to fancy schools or didn't get
03:00that great grades. Like, if they were smart and they took a great test, they could get money and go
03:03to
03:03college. Now it seems almost the opposite is true because you have wealthier schools and wealthier
03:08parents who can game the system. They can get these ADHD diagnoses for longer times. That was a big part
03:13of that
03:13college admissions scandal. They can teach the test in a way that people without the money to do that
03:18can't do as well. So there's also like a class and race argument about this. But who is advocating for
03:25which side of this at this point? It's become a real mixed bag. I mean, there is an argument that
03:32the test kind of exacerbates racial and socioeconomic disparities in access to elite higher education,
03:40to any higher education. You mentioned, you know, test prep. That's an expensive thing to pay for.
03:46And it statistically really, really helps increase students' scores. But then there are, you know,
03:52admissions officers who say, actually, having these test scores helps us what they call the diamond in
03:57the rough theory. It helps us find students from otherwise underprivileged high schools in areas
04:02where they might not look at or where, you know, grading might not be the best indicator of possible
04:07success and find students who really, really stand out. And so there's, you know, advocates for
04:15more access to higher education are also split on this question to some degree.
04:21Liam, there's also this happening in kind of a political crucible as well. And I wonder if you
04:25could talk about that as well. I mean, we've heard from the Trump administration this kind of push to
04:29reform higher education over and over again. You've written so much about that. You have the Republican
04:33candidate for governor in California really talking about the way that higher education needs to be
04:38reformed as well. How much does this fit into that kind of current conversation, that zeitgeist
04:41conversation about the future of higher education? It fits right in there. And of course, the UC system
04:47is saying that, you know, none of those political concerns are going to affect its ultimate decision
04:52about whether or not to return to test requirements. But this is a question that looms large over the UC
04:57and over all colleges. You know, the Trump administration has advocated pretty strongly for a return to test
05:03requirements as part of what they say is, you know, reforms to restore merit in college admissions.
05:09Steve Hilton, the Republican candidate for governor there, has echoed those, you know, those calls.
05:17There's this argument that going test optional is a kind of proxy for race preferences in admissions for
05:25a kind of affirmative action, which, of course, the Supreme Court outlawed in 2023.
05:31That's the argument from the Trump administration and those officials.
05:34And so when a place like the UC, which last year, you know, faced a funding freeze from the Trump
05:40administration
05:41of more than half a billion dollars in federal research grants, is thinking about this question,
05:47it's hard not to, you know, not to see the, you know, the federal governments and, you know,
05:54the political questions hanging over this as well.
05:58Liam, I have to ask also on the education side, you have another story that you're working on.
06:01I want to dive into that. It's about the surge of AI boot camps. So are they effective?
06:07What did you find out? If you can give us a little preview before it publishes.
06:11Sure. Yes, it'll be out later this morning. I think the question of are they effective is very much up
06:17in the air.
06:17And that's part of the impetus for the story, right? It's that there's this real drive among workers, students,
06:26anxious about, you know, the effect of the technology on the job market, whether it's the entry level job market
06:33or whether they, you know, are trying to get back into the workforce or pursue promotions or a new line
06:39of work.
06:39AI is affecting everything, or at least that's what, you know, everyone is, that's what's in the zeitgeist.
06:45And so there's this real urge, there's real eagerness to go back and kind of upskill in that area.
06:53Colleges are also very eager to kind of meet that need, both because they want to prepare students
06:59and because it's a possibly fruitful revenue stream.
07:02But the reality is that nobody knows what skills employers want from, you know, when it comes to AI.
07:08You know, at least of all the employers themselves.
07:11And so there's this, you know, there's kind of a putting the cart before the horse here a little bit.
07:16And the question is, are these boot camps, these very short term non-degree programs that students are entering,
07:24are investing in, really going to hold any value?
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