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00:00Why do the interview at all?
00:02He's under loads of pressure to face scrutiny.
00:05I thought it was basically a bit weak.
00:06You're absolutely right, it wasn't by any means a car crash.
00:09But we are very hard over on, let's give Andy Burnham a chance, this is only week two.
00:14Who else is on a policy blitz, Cleo?
00:16We've just seen Count Binface's manifesto and there's a lot to enjoy in there.
00:21So we're now on week two of living in Andy Burnham's Britain
00:24and he's given his first major interview since being Prime Minister.
00:27After weeks of carefully produced social media videos, influencer videos and direct-to-camera announcements,
00:33he finally sat down with the BBC's Laura Koonsberg for a proper political grilling.
00:39And it was a fascinating watch, right?
00:40We saw Andy Burnham having to answer questions on foreign policy, security, defence and the prospect of a snap general
00:46election.
00:46Yeah, I think it was fascinating in terms of what it told us about him rather than being actually that
00:51interesting, I thought.
00:52Anyway, we'll get into that shortly.
00:54So, today we're asking whether the age of carefully curated political content can ever replace good old traditional journalism,
01:02the Independent certainly hopes not, what we learned about Burnham's premiership from that interview
01:07and whether his team is really ready for one of the biggest jobs in politics.
01:12I'm Helen McNamara, the former Deputy Cabinet Secretary.
01:14And I'm Cleo Watson, a former Special Advisor to Theresa May and Boris Johnson.
01:18And this is In The Room.
01:23Before we get into it, we'd love it if you followed and rated the pod on your podcast player of
01:28choice.
01:28You can keep up with the best bits of the pod on Instagram.
01:30We are at intheroom.pod.
01:33You can also watch us on YouTube.
01:35We are intheroompolitics.
01:37And if you've got a burning question or you want to give us a little bit of feedback, we are
01:41intheroom at independent.co.uk.
01:43That is our email address.
01:44Let's start with some of those emails, Cleo, because we've had a couple of people email us in the last
01:48couple of weeks saying things like you're too soft on Andy Burnham
01:52or you're too mean on Andy Burnham or what do you really think about Andy Burnham?
01:56And so I think the first thing we should say before we go into this is that we are very
02:00hard over on let's give Andy Burnham a chance.
02:03This is only week two.
02:04One of the really striking things about Burnham being prime minister is even people I know who are, I'd say,
02:12extremely kind of conservative supporting or right wing are in the frame of mind of we cannot keep doing this
02:17to ourselves as a country.
02:19And there is a national interest in going back to a time where you can have a good old political
02:23argument with somebody about whether you agree with them or not.
02:26But let's not have another prime minister make a total hash of it.
02:29So I think Andy Burnham carries an enormous amount of goodwill with him from pretty much everyone.
02:34Yeah.
02:35That is not the same as saying he's got all this goodwill and therefore equals everything he does is great
02:40and he's walking on water and there should be no notes given about room for improvement.
02:44Yeah, we've got some notes.
02:45We've got some notes.
02:46Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
02:47I think we're trying to be constructive with our criticism.
02:50And I think that's fair and hopefully something to build on because it doesn't help to build him up and
02:57say, good news, the Messiah has come and then say, oh, dear, he's completely disappointed us because he's not everything
03:03we wanted.
03:04It's just it's just something useful for us all to think about there, potentially.
03:09I mean, I think the other thing that one of the mistakes that Starmer's team and Starmer made, I think,
03:13was to get very thin skinned about any criticism.
03:16So this whole kind of, you know, he got criticized and then retreated and then blame the right wing media
03:22and the fact that everyone was against him.
03:24And actually, what you need to do if you're prime minister and if you're the team around is to sometimes
03:28lean into some of the criticism, be a bit braver and bolder about it.
03:31Don't just kind of retreat and blame everybody else for being mean to you.
03:35Yeah, I mean, it's a good lesson for life. Be robust, be robust. We need to build some resilience.
03:40So I'd love to know what you made of the Laura Koonsberg interview.
03:44I think in a sign of things to come, it was quite heavily trailed.
03:48So we got a sense of what might have been in the interview.
03:52There was mention of like council tax and some education announcements, which are coming this week and social care.
04:00And I thought it was interesting that that's, you know, even with what you call the legacy media, there's this
04:05clipping and trailing before the big hit to get everybody interested to make sure people tune in.
04:11So, I mean, it was a great interview and something we don't see very often, which is a kind of
04:15long form political interview.
04:16So it was striking to, you know, that used to be the currency of how you would know what you
04:21thought of a prime minister was there'd be 20 minute grilling from, you know, Robin Day, if you're that old
04:26or Andrew Neil or Andrew, whoever it was.
04:29And I think Laura Koonsberg did a brilliant, a really brilliant job.
04:33It was a great program.
04:34But blimey did it show as a different man to who the carefully curated version that we've seen over recent
04:39weeks.
04:40I think that he was quite obviously on the back foot with some of the questions on security, foreign policy.
04:47He was surprisingly nervous, actually.
04:49Yes, I agree.
04:50I think, so just a little bit of context to this, what we've seen so far is Andy Burnham has
04:55done a lot of social media that he and his team can control.
04:59And he's done an interview with Gary Lineker, who obviously, you know, there's reasons for doing that.
05:05Absolutely savage, Gary Lineker.
05:06Yeah, savaged by Gary Lineker.
05:09And so this was his kind of first major sit down with the BBC.
05:14It just goes to show it has its place still because the bit that surprised me was he was nervous.
05:20And in some ways he was right to be nervous because under the smallest amount of pressure, he did.
05:25He looked slightly cooked, as these might say.
05:29So he would he was very confident giving a kind of sweeping general statement about we must fix social care.
05:35And when Laura Koonsberg said, OK, well, will that be underway by the 2029 general election?
05:41He he immediately said, well, I'm moving at pace and things need to go at the speed that they're done.
05:47He wouldn't sort of commit to anything.
05:49It was quite cagey.
05:50So very happy with the first question.
05:52Very nervous with any kind of follow up.
05:55Yeah. And for someone who presents himself as a kind of, you know, different kind of politician,
05:59I'm, you know, down to earth, authentic man of the people ish.
06:02There was quite a lot of, I would say, old school politicians flannel in some of his answers.
06:08It was a situation normal.
06:10Can't really understand what you're saying there.
06:12Yes. Yeah.
06:13One of the one of the things I did think about with this was why do the interview at all?
06:18He's under loads of pressure to face scrutiny.
06:21Lots of people have said he's done.
06:23He did a couple of press conferences where he didn't make questions afterwards.
06:26He's obviously released a load of his own social media.
06:28He did the Nicker video as discussed.
06:30So he's been under pressure to do a set piece interview like this.
06:34And I'd love to talk about some of the negotiating that goes on behind the scenes.
06:39But in some ways, it was mission accomplished.
06:41I don't think he, I don't think he caused himself major problems with some of his answers.
06:46I thought it was, I thought it was basically a bit weak.
06:50And it showed why we do still need these kinds of interviews.
06:52However, you know, he has 83% name recognition in Greater Manchester, but he only has 38% name recognition
07:00across the rest of the UK.
07:02So in terms of how he just came across people getting to know him, hearing his voice, just seeing him
07:08talk in these kind of general ways about, you know, his warm conversation with Trump, how he's always willing to,
07:15you know, take someone at how he finds them.
07:17And that's the kind of person he is.
07:20And again, some stuff that I think people who probably have the privilege of listening to this podcast think they're
07:25hearing all the time.
07:27Lots of people might have been hearing or seeing that for the first time.
07:29So it's all it's still about the first impression he's trying to make.
07:33Yeah, and I think that's where, and this might be a bit harsh, and this is, you know, me revealing
07:37my true colours as a Westminster and Whitehall person, but we just heard the mayor, I feel like.
07:43I mean, it was a, you know, you're absolutely right.
07:44It wasn't by any means a car crash.
07:46There were some nice bits in it.
07:47There's some lovely footage of X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah.
07:51But he was, he came across as the mayor, not the prime minister to me.
07:54And I think that is worrying, because there are a few things.
07:58So his sort of slightly folksy version of when he was responding to the questions on Donald Trump, where Laura
08:05Koonsberg was asking kind of, so how was the conversation?
08:07What would you think?
08:08And some quite pointy questions about do you think that Donald Trump made a mistake in starting the war with
08:13Iran, which is not a very complicated question.
08:15Let's face it. He was more kind of hesitant, nervy, and then basically said, well, you know, the thing about
08:23me is I just take people how I find them.
08:26And I don't really want a folksy prime minister taking world leaders how they find them.
08:30I want a prime minister taking advice from the best people in our country who understand national security and diplomacy
08:35and kind of finally crafting and managing kind of like doing the job inhabiting the role properly.
08:42And that troubled me, the kind of, are you, don't take people as you find them, please do, please, please,
08:49like, pay attention to some of the advice around you.
08:51He wasn't willing to take Putin as he found him. He was quite cagey on would he accept a phone
08:55call with Vladimir Putin.
08:55He just panicked a bit in response to that question, I feel.
08:58And like, fair enough. I mean, would you take a phone call from Putin?
09:01We could see him thinking, what will the left flank of my, or indeed the right flank of my party
09:05make of that.
09:06But I thought that was interesting, though, that we've discussed this a couple of times on the show about how
09:13people will respond to Andy Burnham.
09:15And Keir Starmer always did well on polls with foreign affairs and coming across as statesmanlike.
09:22And I think this interview opened up exactly that flank for him, which is will people find, they may be
09:28folksy charm, but will people find him statesmanlike and confident on the world stage?
09:33And I and I even thought the footage we saw of him with Zelensky yesterday, the warm words that he
09:40was reading off notes, which is quite interesting, because you think that's the bit he could totally nail.
09:46And he looked surprisingly awkward, actually.
09:48I mean, can we just spare a thought for poor old Zelensky, who yet again has had to step away
09:53from like fighting an actual war in Ukraine to come to Britain to meet another prime minister offering their full
09:59wholehearted support.
10:01It's like we've added a meeting with Zelensky into the ritual surrounding the changeover of prime ministers.
10:06It's weird.
10:06They did have nice his and his black outfits, though.
10:09They do love that.
10:10Good for Zelensky every time.
10:12Here he is.
10:12Absolute trooper.
10:14Election guy might have gone, but Zelensky's still here.
10:16Some things don't change.
10:18Some things don't change.
10:18Can we get back into some elements of the interview that I think are worth pausing on as well?
10:23So we had a lot of Manchester again, and I feel like I am going to become super tedious.
10:28And I do understand the people saying, well, you know, everyone's been going about London for years.
10:33So why shouldn't we get our chance to go on about Manchester?
10:36It is sounding surprisingly bad now already by week two that our prime minister is constantly talking about Manchester.
10:44And then yesterday he was like trying to do a bit of Manchester versus London, which there's a lot of
10:50the country that's not either Manchester or London.
10:52Yeah.
10:53I mean, I'm really intrigued as time goes on how he starts being received in like rural parts of the
11:00country who must just think, I don't get any of this.
11:03Or Newcastle.
11:04Yeah.
11:05Or Bath.
11:06But other Labour strongholds.
11:08And I do think the anti-London thing is really odd as well.
11:11I mean, first rural politics, learn to count.
11:14Labour Party is heavily dependent on MPs from London, has been for a very long time.
11:19The maths has not been going Labour's way in London because of the resurgence of the Greens.
11:24Okay, the local elections are particularly bad.
11:26But that is a trend that's been going for some time.
11:28I don't think you can afford to alienate everybody who lives in London.
11:32It's not a great idea.
11:34Yeah, I thought that too.
11:36What did you make of, well, what did you make of in some of the footage, the B-roll footage,
11:43as they say, on these interviews?
11:46Look at us.
11:46We're so professional now.
11:47We know the name for it and everything.
11:49We're legacy media.
11:50Who knew?
11:51I was surprised to see so much of the Cabinet Secretary, Antonio Romeo, popping up.
11:56And I read that she now has a, she both has a desk up in Number 10 North, but she
12:02has a seat directly outside the Prime Minister's office, which is an unprecedented move from a Cabinet Secretary.
12:07Or in the outer office of Number 10?
12:09Yes.
12:10Oh, nice.
12:10Nice.
12:12Prime real estate.
12:13Probably my old desk, so, you know.
12:15I think it might be Eddie's old desk.
12:16Sorry about the chair.
12:17It could be.
12:19There's some good snacks in your drawers, though.
12:21Yes, some great snacks.
12:22She's in the classic footage, which is always the case with the Cabinet Secretary walking in with the Prime Minister
12:27as the staff are clapping.
12:30But then she's, you know, she's sitting down in the Cabinet, but she's there everywhere.
12:35And traditionally, you try and avoid the lens if you're one of those people.
12:40And she's front and centre.
12:42Just an interesting little note there.
12:44Yeah, it's odd.
12:45It's unusual.
12:45I think it's fair to say.
12:47There's two bits of it that are unusual.
12:48I think you were saved last week from me going on and on and on about the machinery of government
12:54changes and the new department for the Prime Minister.
12:57But the Cabinet Secretary has effectively appointed herself as both the Cabinet Secretary and Permanent Secretary for all of the
13:03Number 10s.
13:03However many that shall blossom in this next period of time.
13:07You're right.
13:08It's unusual to put yourself outside the Prime Minister's door.
13:11But sort of, why not?
13:12I mean, for a long time, people have criticized Cabinet Secretaries of not having enough dynamic grip, not being entirely
13:17next to the Prime Minister, not being enough at his hand.
13:21Well, there she is.
13:23It is striking to see so much of her in the media.
13:27So, you know, back in back in my day, you used to pride yourself on never being seen.
13:33So effectively, you would civil servants would fine each other for appearing on if you even if you're just in
13:38the background, if you've managed to not move yourself out of the shot and been seen, you had to buy
13:42cake for the whole office.
13:43It was like, it's like one of those really odd rituals in the civil service that if you actually accidentally
13:48were caught on camera, then you were in trouble.
13:50She must be bankrupt in cake purchases.
13:52She has a lot of cake being eaten.
13:53The other striking thing is that this was an interview where it was still all about Andy.
13:57He didn't proactively mention a single Cabinet Minister.
14:00So Laura Koonsberg asked him about John Healy in relation to defence spending, but he didn't mention any of his
14:05colleagues.
14:06When he was asked any policy questions, he said he was going to take fresh eyes.
14:10He was going to look at something. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that.
14:14I think that is going to get stale very quickly for two reasons.
14:17Firstly, it's going to really annoy the rest of his cabinet.
14:20They are proper politicians with real jobs that he ought to be thinking a bit more carefully about what does
14:26it look like if he just totally wipes them out.
14:28No I in team.
14:30No, there isn't me, though.
14:32And there he goes, because it's also risky, right?
14:36One of the things that you learn quite fast and hard as Prime Minister is that it's much better if
14:40there's more people to take the blame.
14:42And so inserting a little bit of a buffer between not every decision comes back to you.
14:46You're not writing the theme tune, singing the theme tune, doing the whole of the governing all by yourself.
14:51Some of it's somebody else's fault.
14:52And credit, even.
14:53Oasis are doing the theme tune.
14:56I thought the other thing that has been touted as a revelation, but I personally don't think is at all
15:00the idea that there's not going to be an early election.
15:03And you think.
15:03So surprised.
15:04He has a massive majority.
15:06Why would he cave in to Nigel Farage's demands for a massive election now?
15:10It would be a completely insane thing to do.
15:12And as he said in the interview, I just don't think that's what the public want.
15:16Not another one, as Brenda from Bristol would say.
15:19I'm so pleased you've got that accent out of the way.
15:23It's coming on.
15:24It's coming on very well.
15:25So that was, yes.
15:26I mean, not a surprise that he's ruled out a general election.
15:29That is kind of categorically ruled out.
15:30I did feel like he could have spent a bit more time practicing his answer about what that meant for
15:35the manifesto.
15:36Because you've got this very clear tension between there's going to be, there's no need for a general election.
15:41We live in a parliamentary democracy.
15:43The voters voted for the Labour Party.
15:45Here we are the Labour Party in charge.
15:47Tick.
15:47So Laura Kunzberg pushed him a bit on, well, OK, does that mean that you are fully signed up to
15:51the manifesto and not doing anything new?
15:53How does that compute with you being the biggest breath of fresh air we've had for 40 years?
15:59And his answer needs work, I would say, on that.
16:02It's not entirely square.
16:03And I am finding some of the, there's some nice kind of giddy excitement of people in new jobs saying,
16:09oh, it's been amazing.
16:10But I think that they have to catch up pretty quickly that for most people, we're not really excited that
16:16a different set of Labour politicians are in charge.
16:18We hope that this works better than the last time for sure.
16:21Yeah.
16:22But it's not like super exciting and a big revolutionary change.
16:24And you can't argue that it's both total change and completely the same at the same time.
16:29Yes.
16:30Something on that behind the scenes feeling, though, it's hard to emphasise enough how miserable it feels when it just
16:37feels like you're losing in there.
16:38And from my time with Theresa May, I came in just after the 2017 general election and was like lowest
16:46of the low tempo wise.
16:48And it didn't really improve, to be honest.
16:50And it's, yeah, it's, it's absolutely punishing working in there.
16:55And then when, even for a small period of hope, it's so great to feel like you're winning.
17:00So I can see why people are suddenly saying, oh, it feels so good in here.
17:04We'll see for how long.
17:06But I do, I do see why, you know, people feel more positive at the moment.
17:10Yeah.
17:10And they should.
17:11And we do want a confident government.
17:12We want a confident government that believes in itself and backs itself to do things.
17:15That's, you know, welcome to democracy, folks.
17:17It's really important that you demonstrate that.
17:20Yeah.
17:21It's, it's the kind of, I'm so excited that it's meanness that I'm sure we'll die down.
17:25Yes.
17:25And, and Burnham himself seems very aware of that.
17:27He said, social care is a problem I want to solve, and I'm willing to use what capital
17:31I have to solve that, which I thought, good for you, bold and brave.
17:35I mean, there's an interesting contrast there, though, because his team is saying, you know,
17:38he's going to run towards problems.
17:40But his political team is saying, our number one priority is to get Andy reelected.
17:45And that's a classic.
17:46Very tricky balance there between the bit of tension there between those two things.
17:50We've seen that.
17:51We've seen that before.
17:52I thought it was interesting that they asked the Laura Koonsberg and Panorama to record
17:58up in number 10 North.
17:59And we obviously did a bit of behind the scenes down in Downing Street too.
18:03And, you know, they're coming for our lunch because that's some very in the room content
18:07people got to enjoy there.
18:09Yeah.
18:09But, you know, this interview will have been weeks in the making.
18:14A lot of negotiating on how long it'll be, what kind of format, what the background will
18:20be like.
18:21You know, the Burnham camp have already had a little trouble with this by inviting the
18:25media in for the kind of pre-cabinet chit chat in the garden last week.
18:30And that's when Wes Streeting's joke about releasing prisoners early was caught on a
18:35hot mic or very uncomfortable.
18:43So what happens with these kinds of interviews is the principal before they go in to do the
18:49interview is told, you know, you're going to be mic'd up.
18:50Please remember that because, you know, the BBC own that content then.
18:55So please try not to say something stupid.
18:58Clean your glasses, straighten your tie, check for dandruff, do up your laces.
19:02And there was there was some of that in there in the Burnham video.
19:06And then you try and keep the room actually as empty as possible, because obviously what
19:11we see as the viewer is just Laura and Andy sitting together.
19:15But there can be lots of people in the background.
19:17I remember, you know, when Dominic Cummings did his famous Rose Garden press conference
19:24during COVID, someone said I looked like a tennis linesman because I was standing, but
19:31I had my hands on my thighs watching in his line of sight to be like, hold it together.
19:37So you try and limit as many people, you know, the number of people in the room because
19:41it's just too many in there.
19:43It gets hot under the lights.
19:44It is amazingly nerve wracking when you're watching the person you work for do a live
19:50recording.
19:50So I do have some sympathy for Burnham's team.
19:52I'm sure you're right.
19:52There weren't that many of them actually physically in the room with the interview.
19:56But I've definitely found myself in a situation before where you just think I actually can't
20:00watch and can't look and can't see how this goes because I'm not going to be able to manage
20:03my face.
20:04And it just makes you feel slightly sick.
20:06Oh, totally.
20:07And also you feel very responsible because I mean, if I had a criticism of that interview,
20:13I don't think his team had prepared him brilliantly.
20:16I don't think it is right that he didn't have proper follow up answers on defense spending
20:22and foreign affairs.
20:25And certainly what he's meant to be talking about this week in a big speech, which is
20:28social care, he's only got the sort of tools he's given.
20:32And he is an only a week into the job.
20:34And he said that I don't have answers to everything, Laura, because I've only just got
20:37my feet under the table, but prepare him accordingly.
20:40And I think he from the looks of things, he had to do a lot of thinking on his feet.
20:44One of the things I do think is a great case for these kinds of interviews is we talked
20:48about this with Nigel Farage's by-election announcement.
20:52He put it onto his YouTube channel, he sort of live streamed and everybody picked it up
20:56and it was a way for reform to really control the media.
20:59And a large part of that output is just from their own channels now and it gets picked up
21:05elsewhere.
21:07And, you know, Andy Burnham obviously is a pro at that.
21:09That's what we've been seeing in the last few weeks.
21:12What I like about these interviews is they, it's like a fair experiment.
21:16So the format's the same, Laura Koonsberg or Andrew Neil or whoever sits down with the
21:24leader and they get challenged in the same way.
21:27So you don't get to see how they've cut this on TikTok or what their reach is.
21:32It's like a, it's a kind of fair experiment.
21:35And it's a, it's a, you know, it's not great to dodge them for scrutiny reasons.
21:40I think there's also a case though, that what we've missed in having a Labour leadership
21:44election.
21:45So what Andy Burnham hasn't been is tested or hasn't had to answer or ask any hard questions
21:51as we've gone.
21:51So actually I felt like that's also what we were seeing this interview is this was the
21:55first time somebody had actually put him on the back foot.
21:58He's used to being universally loved in Manchester.
22:01I mean, he literally, that footage is not made up that he walks down the street and people
22:04follow him and think he's king of the north and think he's amazing.
22:07So he's lived in this bubble of everybody just being lovely to him and saying how great
22:11he was.
22:11And then he was there already.
22:12And then he's been in the market for becoming the prime minister.
22:16So anybody who wants anything from him in the Labour Party has been on the, oh Andy,
22:19aren't you great?
22:20Aren't you amazing?
22:20This is going to be incredible.
22:22This is felt like one of the first times he's actually had somebody go, really?
22:25Okay.
22:26Yeah.
22:26How's that going to work then?
22:27Yeah.
22:28And without having a leadership election, he's not had to do any of that.
22:31So you do think, I really hope they're going to find some opportunities for him to get used
22:35to being disliked, put on the spot, put on the back foot and able to respond in the moment
22:40better because that's part of the job too.
22:42Yes.
22:43Well, his next interview is going to be on Jimmy's jobs of the future.
22:46And we are very proud to say that we interviewed Jimmy ourselves for our summer series, Lesson
22:51Som Number 10.
22:53So you'll have to tune in in August to see how Jimmy answers some of the questions from
22:58when he worked in Downing Street.
22:59And tune in, of course, to his interview with Andy Burnham to see how that goes.
23:06So last week we talked about the 6am announcements, like the advent calendar we were living in
23:11and they're still going.
23:12So this week's 6am-er was that the Times reports the government is overhauling technical
23:17education.
23:18There's going to be a new vocational qualification and a completely different route for 14 year
23:23olds if they want to take on technical education than they can.
23:26Let's make it so clear.
23:27It's classic government comms of this genre, you know, for too long, real working people,
23:34a radical overhaul.
23:35It's sort of all the greatest hits.
23:37The thing is, it's not wrong.
23:38We do need a radical overhaul.
23:40We do.
23:40We do need this done.
23:41But I think the public have heard this so many times.
23:43This really reminds me, I mean, not to give everyone sort of Boris Johnson PTSD yet again,
23:49but this is one of the things he really minded about and Theresa May really minded about
23:52and David Cameron really minded about.
23:54It's hard to do.
23:55And it was the last Labour government that massively expanded university places.
23:59So it's not all, you know, bad Tories in the 1980s.
24:03Some of this stuff is much more recent.
24:05Yes.
24:05There is a little irony also.
24:07I don't want to, I don't want to be constantly digging Andy Burnham, but he went to Cambridge
24:12and then he went straight into politics.
24:14He's never worked in another career.
24:16It's a technical career of sorts.
24:18But I think, I mean, I'm sure he would say, he would counter that by saying, you know,
24:23the jobs market has changed.
24:24So I don't think that's really an option for me now.
24:27Um, I, I, I think anyone studying PP at the moment at Oxford or Cambridge would say, don't
24:32say it ain't so.
24:33That's exactly what I'm hoping to do.
24:35But, um, I think there was a small irony and, and, and I'm surprised he doesn't say
24:42if perhaps he'll do this on Jimmy's jobs, the future, but if I had my time again, this
24:46is what I would do.
24:47If I was 16 now, this is what I would do.
24:49But he, he, he likes to just pretend he doesn't have a CV at all.
24:52Uh, this has troubled me today.
24:54My little civil service soul is slightly sad because there's a lot of chat and there is
25:00absolutely nothing underneath it that you can see.
25:03So if it really is, as is presented, a huge overhaul of our education system, a new qualification
25:08system for people at the age of 14, uh, that according to Andy Burnham's article in the
25:14Times, it's going to be that in a particular local area, a combination of mayors, local people,
25:20whomsoever they shall be, uh, schools, I think you said social workers, employers, social
25:26workers are going to collectively decide together what is the technical skill that is appropriate
25:31for that area, which I've got some questions about really.
25:34So then if I happen to live in Maccasfield, I have to do the technical skill for Maccasfield
25:39and I have no choice whatsoever about anything else.
25:41So, but the idea is that those people decide what the technical qualifications are.
25:46And then that route is started at 14, but you get to do core English and maths.
25:52Okay, great.
25:52How is any of this going to happen?
25:54Does this start from September?
25:55Is there a plan?
25:56What's the kind of thing that's been published, which is the, okay, here are the next steps.
26:01And I do hope that there is, I mean, maybe we're recording in the morning, maybe this
26:05afternoon, there'll be a document that's been published somewhere that says, okay, great.
26:09This is this announcement.
26:10And then here's all the things that we're doing.
26:11And we're consulting on this and we're recruiting teachers for this.
26:14And we're going to do this with school buildings.
26:16But governing is boring.
26:18It's boring in a great way, right?
26:20Because you have to actually do stuff, not just say things.
26:23And there's an awful lot of doing underneath this announcement.
26:26And if it's just been like, oh, it's just a little bit of summer fun.
26:29And then in September, oh, these are really good questions.
26:31I don't know.
26:32Where are we going to get these teachers in these classrooms and this qualifications for?
26:35And how are we going to fairly decide?
26:37And are we really saying that in a particular local area, you have no choice, 14 year old,
26:42you're going into the local factory?
26:43And that doesn't sound, doesn't sound very on brand.
26:46Yes.
26:46And actually, one of the problems is, you know, a problem identified by labor and was
26:51one of their manifesto promises that they are yet to fulfill is that we need more teachers.
26:55So we do need people to actually teach these technical qualifications.
26:59But also from an employer's point of view, I noticed that he couldn't reel off employers
27:05who are currently signed up.
27:06For example, I thought there was a way for him to turn this into a call for action rather
27:10than a policy announcement.
27:11This is something I want to do.
27:13You know, give me your ideas.
27:15I want to get a consultation going.
27:17This is my ambition.
27:18But to do it as my announcement, I think is a bit of a mistake.
27:21And one of the key reasons I imagine employers will be thinking, hmm, is this something we
27:25can actually do is employing young people is expensive and actually difficult.
27:29It's not just from a payment point of view, but insurance, all the fussy little bits that
27:34make this actually quite difficult to do are neglected in the top line here.
27:39And maybe what's going to happen after today is there is the education secretary, the business
27:44secretary, all these people.
27:45There's a whole host of round tables in diaries over the summer where people are going to design
27:50all the detail of these things and talk it through and make it a real thing.
27:53But you do need, you are the man now, you are in government, you need to kind of plan
27:58and show you're working and show the kind of next steps and what this means.
28:01I couldn't personally be more supportive of more technical education.
28:06I think that young people in our country, as we've said weeks ago, I would love to see
28:11policy designed around young people as opposed to older people, you know, far fewer university
28:15places, not young people getting to debt.
28:18All of these things I think are very good things, but revolutions actually, revolutions
28:23take a pen and a piece of paper and some planning as well as just some warm words.
28:27Oh, you're a funster, aren't you?
28:28I am fun all the way.
28:30But I think this speaks to a wider pitfall that successive governments have made, which
28:35is sort of living and dying by the comms grid.
28:38So, I can just imagine that in number 10, in the communications team, there is a grid
28:44of announcements that are happening every day.
28:47And, you know, we ourselves have fueled the fire of your first hundred days must be strong
28:52and they must get off to a really good start and you're in charge and you must make an impact.
28:56Day 101, you can just put your feet on the desk.
28:57Yeah, yeah.
28:58Then just coast through to the general election.
29:02But, I mean, that's great, but that isn't just making announcements.
29:07It's serious thinking and follow through.
29:09And this just feels like one of those occasions where, you know, it remains to be seen.
29:13Maybe there's plenty more coming imminently, but deciding, but this is our announcement
29:18for today.
29:19You're in charge.
29:19You don't have to make it.
29:20Wait until you've done the actual work.
29:22Did it have cabinet collective agreement?
29:24Is it announced to parliament?
29:26I mean, this is, I appreciate it.
29:27These are all the great sticking words.
29:29Do we have, do we have legal advice?
29:31It's that guy's in action, everyone.
29:33Was there a right round?
29:34I do think it matters.
29:35Like that's, but that's how you get, that's the difference between talking and doing.
29:38Yes.
29:39And unfortunately, this is, it's a bit like Andy Burnham's growth in every postcode metric,
29:44which I was very critical of when he gave that speech, because I said, you know,
29:48in a couple of years time, when local elections are on or general election is on, you know,
29:54you can see the leaflet saying growth in this postcode, whether it's fly tipping or crime
30:00or whatever.
30:01And this is, I think this can turn into one of those, those reels of this is what he said.
30:08This is what he's done.
30:09Well, and crikey, he's going to be backing a lot of stuff up.
30:12If actually it's going to carry on like this, and we're going to get similar, really big,
30:16but extremely thin policy announcements every day for the next hundred days.
30:20He's not just given a plan for the next 10 years.
30:23He's laid out a plan for the next 50.
30:24And the amount of spending just to go back to, right.
30:28Okay.
30:28What are you stopping in order to start these things?
30:34I think it's fair to say that Andy Burnham is not the only person on a policy blitz this
30:39week because we've now seen who else is on a policy blitz clear.
30:42We've just seen Count Binface's manifesto and there's a lot to enjoy in there.
30:48I think my favourite thing is the idea of a 99p flake ice cream actually being 99p.
30:55It's a policy.
30:56Come on.
30:56Come on, Andy.
30:57You can do that one for us as well.
30:58They're about 350.
30:59So expensive.
31:00Yeah.
31:01That's inflation for you.
31:01Also a proper flake.
31:03Yes.
31:03Yes, yes.
31:04A full sized one.
31:05I actually have very close to my heart the idea of Walton Pier being restored to its former
31:11glory because I spent many happy summers on Walton Pier at Pirate Pete and it's not
31:16what it was.
31:17So very supportive of that, Count Binface.
31:20There was two things that caught my eye of the many policies in Binface's manifesto.
31:24One was that he was going to lower my taxes but raise the taxes for everyone else.
31:30That was an eye-catching proposal.
31:33Although Gary Lineker wouldn't like that.
31:34He'd want it the other way around.
31:35Or Gary Stevenson.
31:36In fact, let's have a Gary tax and a Helen and Cleo rebate.
31:40I'd support that.
31:41That's an excellent idea.
31:42Nominative taxation.
31:43You heard it here first.
31:45The second thing that I liked was he said that he was going to make those grabber things
31:49at fairgrounds fairer, which I felt...
31:52So they actually work?
31:52Well, he just said fairer, which I thought was both kind of, it speaks to the heart,
31:56right?
31:56Because those things, anyone who spent a lot of money and I did as a child trying to win
32:00anything with one of those doesn't work.
32:03But also a very politician's promise for Binface because it's just fairer.
32:07It's like, hmm.
32:07Yeah, yeah.
32:08Vague.
32:08I love that, actually.
32:10Yes.
32:10It turns out maybe Binface is a real politician.
32:13I think he's growing into it.
32:15Yes.
32:15Well, a little word on Clacton in general.
32:18Just being from the comms point of view, by the way, Nigel Farage, now he does not have
32:22so much of the nation's media focused on him, seems much happy.
32:25If you see some of the reformed content coming out of Clacton, he's back in his metier.
32:30So he and Andy Burnham sort of swapped places this week because Andy Burnham sort of sweating
32:34under the studio lights has not had the scrutiny that Nigel Farage has had, which is fairly
32:39light touch in Clacton.
32:41And he's enjoying pumping that out.
32:43There were 34 by-election candidates in Clacton.
32:46I mean, this is ridiculous.
32:47We do have to spare a thought for the poor returning officer and also the printing cost
32:50of the ballot paper.
32:51Yeah.
32:51And so it's £500 a deposit.
32:54So it's actually quite a lot of money for everybody.
32:56And brilliantly, reform tried to say, it's going to cost the tax pay about £200,000.
33:01And reform tried to say, don't worry, we'll pay for it.
33:04Until someone had to say…
33:05Oh, we don't.
33:06We actually have laws that stop people doing that.
33:08You can't just buy an election.
33:09I mean…
33:10Nice try, guys.
33:11We've had those since the 18th century.
33:13We were pretty forward thinking in this country on that sort of stuff.
33:16But, you know, good redux.
33:17Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:18There's also…
33:19There's a great line that James Heal from The Spectator quoted this week, which was about
33:24a month ago, reform said, the only thing in the way…
33:26The only thing standing in our way is us.
33:28And they're doing a bloody good job of that.
33:31They are doing a good job of that.
33:33Well, speaking of which, there's a quite exciting poll from More In Common.
33:37Luke Trill, our pollster of choice, has released a poll this week, which shows that there has
33:42been a burn and bounce.
33:43So, Labour have overtaken reform for the first time since March 2025.
33:47They're on 28%.
33:49Reform on 24%.
33:51The Conservatives are just staying at 22%, where they've been for ages.
33:55The Lib Dems are on 12%, and the Greens have plummeted to 8%.
33:59So, do you remember when the Makerfield by-election results came out and we said that…
34:04Here we are, just tooting our own horns.
34:07We said that Burnham had very effectively made a left-wing coalition.
34:10He'd managed to bring in not just Labour voters, but Greens and Lib Dems.
34:15And I think that's just showing that he's holding that base quite comfortably,
34:19and there's a bit of movement on the right instead.
34:22So, he's got his little balance.
34:24I don't know how long he'll have it for, to be totally honest.
34:27No, but it's a good thing to have, right?
34:28And he should be using it.
34:29Totally.
34:30Obviously, it should be a sharpener for reform, because I think it's fair to say that the
34:35by-election stunt has backfired, certainly if Nigel Farage is beaten by Count Binface,
34:42or indeed, Lawrence Fox.
34:43Lawrence Fox, the former actor, is standing in Clacton.
34:46Is he back?
34:47It's the veritable who's who of independence.
34:50People you've never heard of.
34:51Thank you for listening to today's episode.
34:53Remember to follow the show on your podcast player of choice,
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35:01Our email address is intheroom at independent.co.uk.
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35:12We are at intheroom.pod.
35:15This podcast is part of the Independent Podcast Network,
35:17and produced in association with Next Chapter Studios.
35:20The executive producer is Rod Adahali, and the producer is Sam Durham.
35:24We'd like to give a special mention to our content editor, Myra Nushka,
35:27our video editor, Vali Raza, and our videographer, Dan Faber.
35:30Thanks for listening, and see you on Friday.
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