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00:00This week, the Ukrainian president went from the NATO summit in Turkey to meeting with several U.S. lawmakers, including
00:04Republican Michael McCaul of Texas, who joins us now live from Ukraine.
00:08He serves on the Foreign Affairs and Homeland Security Committees.
00:10I should say he was just recognized by the president of Ukraine with the Order of Merit Second Class.
00:15Congratulations on that.
00:16Great to speak with you from Ukraine this morning.
00:18Hey, excuse me, Medal of Freedom.
00:20Medal of Freedom.
00:21Thank you very much.
00:23No big deal.
00:24No big deal.
00:25An accolade nonetheless.
00:27Pick up from what we were just talking about with Colin.
00:28There's this promise from the president that they're going to be able to build Patriot missiles.
00:32What did you hear from the president?
00:33What does that look like in real terms if Ukraine is able to do that?
00:37Well, if I could put the threat landscape in picture for your audience, there are a lot of shellings where
00:45I'm sitting right now in Kyiv of ballistic missiles.
00:48I just came back from the front lines.
00:51It's heavy drone warfare on the front lines.
00:56They're actually winning on the front lines right now.
00:59They're actually capturing Russian territory, which is hugely significant.
01:04I think in President Trump's eyes, seeing them as a winner has been helpful in his discussions with Zelensky.
01:10But where they're vulnerable right now is they have no way to defend themselves.
01:15There's no air defenses with respect to ballistic missiles.
01:19I've been in some very intense briefings here.
01:24Russia is able to build well over 60 ballistic missiles a month.
01:29The ones that we were hit with last night were not intercepted.
01:35So they do not have interceptors.
01:37That's a Patriot battery, Patriot interceptor that they need to arrange for the licensing agreements to be either sold or
01:48given to Ukraine is a major step forward, both politically as a showing of support,
01:54but also allowing Ukraine to use its amazing innovation I've seen over here with drone manufacturers to now manufacturing this
02:04Patriot interceptor.
02:07They have a very short window of time.
02:10In fact, I would say because the missiles are hitting now, normally it would be the wintertime, but it's hitting
02:17now.
02:18They can move this a lot faster than, say, Lockheed can in the United States.
02:24I hope this can be done in short order.
02:27Chairman, do you think Lockheed is going to play ball?
02:29I mean, they do have to agree to give Ukraine the license.
02:32And so far, our reporters and other reporters have not gotten an official comment from Lockheed as to whether or
02:38not they're going to be willing to do that.
02:40Right.
02:40And it's a good question.
02:41I think it's in their best interest to do so for many factors.
02:46Their whole business model relies on defense contracts with the United States government, our military.
02:53If the president wants this done, it's in their best interest to comply with that.
02:58But in addition, Christina, I think we have a lot to learn from the Ukrainians.
03:03I've learned a lot on this trip in terms of the innovation and the drone technology.
03:08I think Ukrainians can build this thing faster and maybe even better so Lockheed could learn something from the Ukrainians
03:17about their own interceptors, how to improve them, how to manufacture them more quickly.
03:23One of the biggest problems you heard from your previous guest is our defense industrial base and our inability to
03:31manufacture these faster in the current threat environment, not only here on the eastern flank of NATO, but also in
03:39the Indo-Pacific, as we're seeing playing out in the Middle East.
03:43Talk a bit, if you would, about kind of formalizing what you're mentioning here, which is kind of learning from
03:48what's happening in Ukraine.
03:49You've introduced this legislation, the Strategic Unmanned Systems Partnership Act, with the gentleman from Ohio, Marcy Kaptur.
03:55And I'm curious, do you see a lot of support within Congress to establish a more formal tie between these
04:00two countries when it comes to unmanned weapons in particular?
04:05I do, because it's in our best interest.
04:08This is a laboratory that I'm in right now.
04:11And I've visited all the drone manufacturers here.
04:15There are some American companies here, a lot of Ukrainian companies that are manufacturing the new innovation of technology, of
04:24modern advanced warfare systems.
04:27We'd be really foolish not to be a full participant in the experiments going on in this laboratory where I'm
04:37sitting today.
04:39There are some European NATO countries here.
04:41I think we would be a loser to not be a participant.
04:45So what the bill essentially does within the National Defense Authorization Bill is to say, you know, we need to
04:52cooperate with Ukraine and co-produce, co-production of these advanced weapons systems in Ukraine and near the eastern flake
05:04of NATO.
05:04I did the same thing with AUKUS in Australia to call their five-line nation to defend against China and
05:12the Indo-Pacific.
05:13It's an exemption to what's called ITAR, the International Regulations on Weapons and Weapon Systems, using AI and quantum to
05:22build out advanced weapon systems.
05:25We have an amazing opportunity to work with the Ukrainians to advance our weapon systems in a faster, more innovative
05:35way.
05:36I think it's a wonderful idea that I think has broad-based bipartisan support.
05:42Chairman, you mentioned that you have been traveling around and you've been on the front lines.
05:47We actually have a pretty amazing photo that I think your colleagues sent over for us.
05:52It's very top gun.
05:53You've got the aviators and the flak jacket on.
05:55But this is, I mean, this is serious stuff.
05:56And since you are there, how is morale, how are those Ukrainian soldiers feeling?
06:01Because they do have momentum.
06:03It does seem like these strikes in the interior of Russia are making a difference.
06:07We are seeing these lines at petrol stations.
06:09But Putin is an entrenched individual.
06:11I don't know if anything, even, you know, popular sentiment is going to move him.
06:16Do they feel like they have traction?
06:18Do they feel like there's a sea change in this conflict?
06:20And where do we think this goes?
06:22Those are all great questions, Christina.
06:25Let me say, number one, morale is high on the Ukraine side of this war.
06:30Where I was on the front line in one of the most fiercest fighting areas, you know, in the Donbass
06:37region.
06:39Morale is high because they're winning.
06:41And they were showing me the square miles that they've taken back from the Russian occupation.
06:48It's because of their innovation, you know, with the drones.
06:51I think that coupled with the news coming from the NATO summit, I was literally with the Ukraine front line
06:58soldiers when that news broke.
07:00That was a major morale boost for not only the fighting forces on the ground, but President Zelensky himself when
07:09I met with him.
07:10Because it's a showing a sign of support from the United States, from the president, and also showing a support
07:17on these patriot interceptors that they so desperately need.
07:21And so, you know, I, Morales, I forgot the second part of your question, if you wouldn't mind repeating.
07:27I did, too. That's OK.
07:29Oh, no, I was wondering, I was, we were thinking through this.
07:34Sorry, I've been going kind of, I've been in these underground bunkers.
07:39Just to give you a little taste of where I've been in these underground bunkers that are camouflaged, where I'm
07:46watching this drone activity on these video screens.
07:49As we're seeing drones being hit out of the sky, you know, these gas stations that we drove past within
07:56the last week have been blown up by Shahed drones.
08:00Just, you know, really amazing.
08:02See, last night I was at their Central Special Forces Command, if you will, where their major drone operations are
08:09outside of Kyiv.
08:12And fascinating.
08:15This is the bottom line, the cost-benefit ratio.
08:18To take a drone that's worth about $25,000 and take out a $100 million infrastructure facility in Russia.
08:29This is how they win.
08:31Because Russia can't afford it.
08:33And now I do remember your question.
08:35It has to do with Putin.
08:36Yeah, it did come back to me as you were talking about the trenches, but go ahead, sir.
08:41Putin is feeling the pain.
08:42He's getting more desperate.
08:44And that's why the ballistic missiles are coming in.
08:46He does see a vulnerability he's taking advantage of, but he's also feeling the pain.
08:52The average lifespan of a Russian soldier in the front line is a matter of hours to days.
08:58They don't last very long.
09:00And that's how effective the Ukrainians are right now.
09:04The morale of the Russian Federation soldier is way down.
09:08The population is feeling the pain now, not only with gasoline prices, but the carnage taking place on their side
09:18of the front line.
09:19So I think Putin, I know for a fact, is very angry at the outcome of the NATO summit meeting
09:28with the showing of support by the president, President Trump, to President Zelensky, and reinforcing that with,
09:36we understand you need better air defenses, we're going to help you with the Patriot interceptor.
09:42That was a very strong message to Moscow and to Putin.
09:47And I believe he's losing allies as well.
09:50Remember, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran are all under threat.
09:54And I think Putin is feeling backed against the wall.
09:59We don't want him to get too desperate and use tactics that would be unconventional.
10:06But I do think, who thought, well, I was told four days this conflict would be over.
10:11And here we are four years later.
10:14And I'm proud to say, after the investment I was able to get with the emergency wartime supplemental bill, they
10:21are now winning.
10:22I want to get a read from you of the president's engagement with his conflict.
10:27So you talked about him making that commitment of patriots and what he said at the NATO summit.
10:32Of course, that was preceded by this 85-minute-long phone call that he had with President Putin.
10:37And I'm curious what you observed of him at the NATO summit in terms of engagement with the conflict in
10:42Ukraine
10:43and, indeed, what the president of Ukraine said to you about the status of their relationship
10:47and his confidence in the support that he has from the U.S.
10:51Well, remember, morale is already high because they're winning.
10:55But the message at the NATO summit is, I'm a winner.
10:59And President Trump likes winners.
11:01And President Trump now has decided to go.
11:05We'll see if it's all in.
11:07But he certainly was a strong showing of support for the president of Ukraine and the Ukrainian people.
11:13I think that was the right decision.
11:15I think the moral clarity is there.
11:18I think being on the right side of history is there.
11:21And the more pressure we can put on Putin, the closer we are to a peaceful negotiation.
11:27Remember, Zelensky is the one who has said, yes, I will agree to a ceasefire.
11:33The one who has not agreed to that is Putin.
11:37So you don't get him to the table by being nice to him.
11:40You get him to the table by putting leverage on him.
11:44Peace through strength works.
11:45And so the more strength we can show on the Ukraine side, the more pain we can put on Russia
11:53and Putin,
11:54then the closer we are to a negotiated peaceful resolution of this conflit.
11:59I do worry about a hubristic factor here.
12:02And to quote Mark Twain, you know, the reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.
12:06There are some warning signs that, yes, Ukraine has momentum, but this isn't over and Russia can come back very
12:15strongly.
12:15Are you worried that people are giving the wind too early and that it will lose momentum or even lose
12:20interest with some of the allies?
12:22Or do you think that this really is a turning point in the conflict?
12:28Yeah, I think the turning point started a year ago.
12:31They are winning on the drone war front where they're vulnerable are the air defenses for the ballistic missiles, and
12:39Putin knows that.
12:40That's why you're seeing the shelling taking place where I'm sitting today in Kiev.
12:45Every night they're getting pounded here with ballistic missile attacks.
12:50They're trying to hit their energy infrastructure here.
12:54They have fired over a dozen hypersonic weapons into Ukraine.
13:01Those are the fastest velocity, most difficult missiles to stop.
13:06And the last piece that I worry the most about would be the tactical nukes.
13:12That would be a real act of desperation by Mr. Putin.
13:16And I think his calculation, however, has guided him against launching those because he knows that that would galvanize the
13:25Western world against him.
13:27And he would also – it has been warned by President Xi in China that his support from China could
13:34wane if he goes down that road.
13:37Let me ask you lastly about the other big conflict that, of course, what's unfolding in the Middle East.
13:41And the president in recent hours has said the ceasefire is over.
13:45He's willing to let talks continue, but it doesn't seem like he's fully engaged with them.
13:50Steve Witkoff can go do them.
13:51Jared Kushner can do them.
13:52But he's not evincing a kind of rigorous engagement at those talks as they're taking place.
13:58What's your sense of the White House strategy going forward here?
14:00Again, the clock is now ticking once again.
14:02The funeral for the late Supreme Leader has ended.
14:05How much optimism do you have that there will be some resolution or progress toward a more permanent deal at
14:10the end of that 60-day period?
14:12Well, I hope there is.
14:14I hope we can get the Straits of Hormuz open.
14:17Iran is – they're not stupid.
14:18I don't trust them.
14:21I don't think they negotiate in good faith.
14:23They know the midterm elections are coming up.
14:25They know that if energy prices escalate, that's going to hurt my party at the election ballot.
14:33I think when you make a decision to go in like this, you've got to go all in.
14:39And we had a historic opportunity to go in, including regime change.
14:45When you do something like this, our military is the greatest.
14:49And they've achieved a lot of their objectives.
14:51The thing we weren't able to achieve was regime change.
14:54And we're still stuck with the same regime, essentially, without the Ayatollah.
14:59We're stuck with the IRGC.
15:01And they have also found a new – found power or weapon.
15:06That's – they can close the Straits of Hormuz.
15:09Going in, you needed leadership, weapons, and you needed communication, open communications.
15:18I am concerned about this.
15:20And the worst thing that could happen is we negotiate a really bad deal for political reasons before the midterm
15:27elections.
15:27Now that we're in and we seem to be all in, we need to do this correctly.
15:32But I don't think the American people have a lot of patience, to be honest with you.
15:37And when they fill up their gas tanks – I mean, I filled mine up when I was home in
15:41Austin.
15:42And it was $100.
15:43And so the American people are fatigued with wars in the Middle East as well.
15:51But it is very important that we succeed in this.
15:55I just don't have a lot of confidence in the negotiations, really.
15:59You have to have a real big stick to get a good negotiation.
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